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You are aware that the 5/7 player Antagonistic Cylon Leader deck has two "humans win" Agendas....right? The Sympathetic Cylon is not less bullshitty than the Sympathizer. It's actually more bullshitty, because whoever draws it becomes a Cylon no matter what and, as you indicated, has a 1/3rd chance of switching sides. The Sympathizer, while a pretty bullshit mechanic, can be tinkered with and outside of bad luck or gross incompetence, should be pretty easy for the humans to control. Cylon Leaders are certainly less bullshitty than either of those, but if you're looking for a way to reduce the even player bullshit quotient, why not just use the official "no sympathizer" variant?
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Jul 17, 2011 17:56
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Some Numbers posted:You are aware that the 5/7 player Antagonistic Cylon Leader deck has two "humans win" Agendas....right? Yes, I'm aware that 1/3 of the 5/7 deck also switches the cylon to "humans win." I've just found that deck to be just a bit less problematic than the 4/6 deck. What I didn't like about the Cylon Sympathizer is how it is even less of a middle ground between human and cylon than the Sympathic Cylon (and the accompanying deck) is. It makes a 4 player game either 3-on-1 or 2-on-2, neither of which is ideal. But, as you say, it is easy for the humans to control, so it almost always ends up as another human anyway, which really fucks the cylon player(s) unless they have help from extraordinary circumstance or from the Exodus Cylon Fleet board. Furthermore, the poor sap that gets the Cylon Sympathizer gets hosed, basically shut out from playing as a human but also not being able to play completely as a Cylon either. That, more than game balance issues, has been the biggest turn-off about that with everyone I've played with. The agenda decks aren't perfect, and since what I'm looking for is one solid 50/50 (human/cylon) for the 4 and 6 player games, I'm not sure it's possible. At their best, the agenda decks approach it much more closely than the Cylon Sympathizer, though, and they add a dynamic to the game that I've always found much more engaging than the Cylon Sympathizer. Sometimes I just say "gently caress it" and use the No Sympathizer variant. It works consistently, but the folks I play with don't like it as much as the added dynamic of the sympathizer.
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Jul 18, 2011 14:48
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How does "You're in the Brig for now, but you'll get out later" shut a player out of the game more then "sorry, but you're half a Cylon" or "sorry, but now you have to fulfill this awkward and poorly designed win condition?" Honestly, the best solution to the Sympathizer/Sympathetic Cylon/Cylon Leader issue is just to play with an odd number of people.
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Jul 18, 2011 16:22
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Humans Win and 5 Raptors/Vipers have been damaged/destroyed was a lot harder than I anticipated it being. I'd never seen a team with 3 humans fall apart so magnificently against 2 cylons when I was also trying to help them more often than not (minus activating command to throw unmanned vipers into the meat-grinder). What made it worse was that both cylons came after sleeper phase, so it was a walk through four distance. I think the problem was the distances chosen: 1, 2, 1, 1, 1, 1 or something thereabouts. It was a silly-long game for no Ionian Nebula. Humans died at the 7 distance jump due to fuel. Doh.
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Jul 18, 2011 18:30
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Pander posted:I think the problem was the distances chosen: 1, 2, 1, 1, 1, 1 Are you sure your Admiral wasn't a cylon all along? The humans deserved to die with picks like those.
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Jul 18, 2011 18:33
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Cocks Cable posted:Are you sure your Admiral wasn't a cylon all along? The humans deserved to die with picks like those. Our first crisis was the one that gives one distance (Legendary discovery?), we passed. Things seemed good. Then barren planet. Fine, fine. Then came a string of 1's, 1st one was legit, the rest were all cylon-muddling. The last 1 was chosen by a human, but his other choice was misfire or misjump or whatever.
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Jul 18, 2011 18:45
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Humans should always take Misjump over a 1-distance, unless you think you're going to lose by population.
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Jul 18, 2011 19:12
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DontMockMySmock posted:Humans should always take Misjump over a 1-distance, unless you think you're going to lose by population. Very real possibility. We went from near-maxxed resources at midway point to full-red at 6 distance in the blink of an eye.
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Jul 18, 2011 19:15
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So when's the next game starting up?
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Jul 19, 2011 01:19
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I can start one maybe early next week if people want. Kinda want to run a base game, but I can do with expansions if that's what people prefer.
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Jul 19, 2011 01:56
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I want to fix the cylon fleet before playing another expansion game. Plus I'm going to SDCC and wouldn't be able to start one until mid next week at the earliest.
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Jul 19, 2011 02:08
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State of Emergency and Political Prowess are awful and I hate them. Maybe enough to start playing without any of the 6 strength cards and minus one of each 0 strength card for numerical balance. The zeroes, on the other hand, are a wonderful addition.DontMockMySmock posted:Humans should always take Misjump over a 1-distance, unless you think you're going to lose by population. I... never thought of this. This actually happened to me while I was Admiral in this game. Although humans won, maybe a misjump + longer distance would have made a big difference. Cocks Cable posted:I want to fix the cylon fleet before playing another expansion game. How? What's wrong with it?
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Jul 19, 2011 02:18
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Snow Job posted:How? What's wrong with it? Too prone to breaking and doesn't integrate well with older crisis cards that place ships on the board as part of a fail condition or some such.
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Jul 19, 2011 02:20
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Cocks Cable posted:Too prone to breaking and doesn't integrate well with older crisis cards that place ships on the board as part of a fail condition or some such. You think so? I think our game was a rare case; in most games I've played with it, it's done its job quite well. I do think that things like Broadcast Location need to be tweaked to fit in with it, however.
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Jul 19, 2011 03:07
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Also, in the game that just completed, food was nearly an issue. Then again, so was literally everything else.
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Jul 19, 2011 03:19
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AesirKnight posted:You think so? I think our game was a rare case; in most games I've played with it, it's done its job quite well. I do think that things like Broadcast Location need to be tweaked to fit in with it, however. I fixed Broadcast Location for that game and it seemed to help in one instance, but the same kind of fix is needed for other cards like say the Cylon Ambush destination. It should be an easy general rule of thumb kinda fix. If a card instructs you to place ships on the board and there are no basestars or none of that kind of ship on board, play it as an activate icon instead (also minus 1 civilian ship placement per activation too). Also, the way component limitations work need to change as well.
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Jul 19, 2011 03:36
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Cocks Cable posted:Also, the way component limitations work need to change as well. How so? In most cases when component limitation has been reached, the humans are already in dire straits. Should it really be made worse?
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Jul 19, 2011 04:35
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Are you out of the loop, AesirKnight? Cocks Cable despises seeing the humans win games of BSG.
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Jul 19, 2011 04:38
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Duly noted. That last game must have been a nightmare, then.
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Jul 19, 2011 04:45
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AesirKnight posted:How so? In most cases when component limitation has been reached, the humans are already in dire straits. Should it really be made worse? Not really. The component limitation will most often affect the Basestars. Rarely does it affect Raiders (of which the pilots should be working to trim to manageable numbers, don't let murder swarms coalesce!). The way it works now, if component limitation is reached, you only port over what's in the sector which will often lead to the same problem as before, a neutered cylon showing for that cycle (the first jump cycle is boring for a reason). It should probably be changed to port over all ships of the same type, but only those type of ships. Some Numbers posted:Are you out of the loop, AesirKnight? Cocks Cable despises seeing the humans win games of BSG. That's not true. I only hate human blow out games.
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Jul 19, 2011 04:47
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Cocks Cable posted:It should probably be changed to port over all ships of the same type, but only those type of ships. That's really funny that you say that, because for the longest time I read the component limitation rules as: "If you have reached component limitation, move all ships of that type to the highest-numbered location on the CFB with that type of ship, and then move every ship in that sector to the main board." Needless to say, it made for lots of Raider swarms if Raiders ever massed on the CFB, and led to LOTS of double-Basestar-in-sector-ALPHA attacks.
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Jul 19, 2011 05:33
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Some Numbers posted:How does "You're in the Brig for now, but you'll get out later" shut a player out of the game more then "sorry, but you're half a Cylon" or "sorry, but now you have to fulfill this awkward and poorly designed win condition?" I agree about the best solution: odd numbers of players. Indeed. But doesn't the Cylon Sympathizer either end up in the brig but stay human (if at least one resource is in the red), or convert into a cylon player (if no resources are in the red)? I meant the latter shuts-out the sympathizer a bit because it makes them play a cylon game without access to super crises and choice of card draws. It's been a long time since I've used it, though, so I might be forgetting some of its rules. Maybe I'll give it another try. It was just so easy for the humans to game against and made it too easy for them. Then again, 3-on-1 isn't always a sure thing... Four of us played a game this weekend with the Sympathetic Cylon and she (playing Tory Foster) was given the "Join the Colonials" agenda, which basically made it 3-on-1. Boomer, our only pilot, ended up being the cylon after the sleeper phase, and revealed with one of the Exodus loyalty cards that adds a centurian to the boarding party track. Right after that we jumped to distance 8, but a combination of lots of bad die-rolling and a perfect storm of heavy raider activation crises, a super crisis ("Fleet Mobilization"), and losing our pilot to better shoot down heavy raiders had the humans vented into space at distance 8 + 2 jump preps.  I thought for certain we had that one in the bag, especially since our sympathizer was so friendly. Still, it was a good game because it was so white-knuckle at the end. The Sympathic Cylon didn't really factor into the game much other than, perhaps, making the single cylon rely more on luck (having little else ot rely on).
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Jul 19, 2011 14:58
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So how much would you guys say forums play changes the game? I've probably played ten or so games in person, and playing on the forums seems crazy! I guess you have a lot more time to sit and think about different card plays and stuff - I know in person, sometimes it can be easy for an unrevealed cylon player to sneak in some bad cards juts because six people trying to agree on anything is tough.
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Jul 19, 2011 15:46
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DiscipleoftheClaw posted:So how much would you guys say forums play changes the game? I've probably played ten or so games in person, and playing on the forums seems crazy! I guess you have a lot more time to sit and think about different card plays and stuff - I know in person, sometimes it can be easy for an unrevealed cylon player to sneak in some bad cards juts because six people trying to agree on anything is tough. There's a LOT more scrutiny on any given play, and you have to be very aware of who plays what into any skill check, because other players will be on you like a hawk if you do anything suspicious, intentional or otherwise. There's also increased suspicion for any minor mistakes that happen throughout the game. But, that being said, the physical distance from other players means you may get more time to consider your move without the "pressure" you sometimes feel at the table. "Bullying" still happens, but it is usually only for more major events (check the last Cocks Cable game that I was in to see how we "bullied" Cally into shooting Tory). If you're interested, I'll probably be starting a game up next week if you'd like to jump in.
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Jul 19, 2011 16:00
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For reference, here are all the crisis and destination cards that place ships on the board that could potentially break the cylon fleet. Most are from the base game, but a few were actually from Exodus itself  quote:CRISIS: Cylon Tracking Device
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Jul 19, 2011 18:35
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The basic rule changes would be as follows: If instructed by a any card text to place Cylon Ships (Basestars, Raiders, Heavy Raiders) on the main game board and there are no Basestars or cylon ships of that type already on the main game board, do not place any ships and instead treat that as a activate Cylon Ship icon. For each Cylon Ship activation, reduce any Civilian Ships placed by 1. Thus something like... FAIL: Destroy 1 raptor and place a basestar in ALPHA and 2 civilian ships in DELTA. Now becomes... FAIL: Destroy 1 raptor and Activate Basestar and place 1 civilian ship in DELTA. But only if the board is clean. If there is a Basestar already out, you'd follow the normal placement instructions. Also, the way component limitation works needs to be altered as well to prevent it from breaking the cylon fleet. Instead of.. Placing Cylon Ships on the Cylon Fleet Game Board posted:When a Cylon ship activation places a raider, heavy raider, or basestar on the Cylon Fleet game board, the current player rolls a die and places the ship in the Cylon space area that matches the result. Change this to... quote:If all ships of the appropriate type are already on either the main game board or the Cylon Fleet game board, the current player moves all the ships of that type to the corresponding space areas on the main game board. This would prevent many stupid cases where something like a single Basestar and Raider are ported over the main game board and halt any further advancement of the pursuit track while the humans lounge out on deck chairs admiring the patheticness of the cylon fleet.
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Jul 19, 2011 18:59
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What about some simpler options? Off the cuff, but maybe something like: "Add a ship to the cylon fleet board any time that activation occurs, but it does not advance pursuit or trigger component limit attacks", so that if there is one cycle with just a basestar and a raider or whatever, that cycle will be pretty easy, but each crisis is going to further load the CFB and the next cycle will be rougher than current rules, and you don't have to mess with the crisis texts. Alternately, put the cylon attack cards back into the crisis deck and don't have them place civs, or have them place 1-x civ per the CAG chooses rules.
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Jul 19, 2011 19:19
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Cocks Cable posted:The basic rule changes would be as follows: The only thing I don't like about this is that the Destinations will pretty much always just do the activation symbol instead of the placement. I think I would like it better if it was just "Instead of placing ships on the main game board, place them on the Cylon Fleet Board in the corresponding section". And instead of placing civilian ships, move the Pursuit track up for each civilian you were supposed to place.
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Jul 19, 2011 19:35
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ChewyLSB posted:I think I would like it better if it was just "Instead of placing ships on the main game board, place them on the Cylon Fleet Board in the corresponding section". And instead of placing civilian ships, move the Pursuit track up for each civilian you were supposed to place. I sort of like this better, but then placement of ships will never be an immediate concern if there are ships already on the main game board. Small price to pay I guess. What about the second rule concerning component limitation?
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Jul 19, 2011 19:47
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Oh sorry, but also instead of placing them on the CFB, place them on them on the Cylon Fleet Board if there is already at least one cylon ship on the board? I'm not sure what the most elegant way to do that is. I would almost prefer a component limitation forcing the entire cylon fleet to come over if it maxes out. It always seemed like it "punishes" the cylon player if the humans allow them to max out. Then again, you always reach the Component Limit for Basestars, so... I dunno. I was thinking about maybe changing Launch raiders to put 2 raiders on the CFB instead of a Basestar.
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Jul 19, 2011 19:55
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ChewyLSB posted:I would almost prefer a component limitation forcing the entire cylon fleet to come over if it maxes out. That would be a bit much. Basestars are going to cause component limitation fast and be constantly porting over the entire cylon fleet. The humans would never have a moment's rest. By the one true god, you tricked me into advocating for those fleshies! I think it would work better if all but only those ship types ported over. Most of the time that will be 2 Basestars which is sufficient enough of a threat to start things simmering for a cycle. A single raider activation later spawns 4 Raiders, enough to chase around civies. Once in a while the pursuit track will reach the end and you'll get a (hopefully) even stronger showing a few times a game. It would also protect you from weird corner cases if you say hit component limitation on Heavy Raiders or Raiders.
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Jul 20, 2011 05:11
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I like two changes. (1) Any time a card comes up regarding placing a ship on the main board, instead treat it as activating that type of ship. If this would lead to the activation of more than one ship type, either do only the first ship type activation listed on the card, or if there are cylon players they may choose which activation to utilize. (2) Any time a cylon ship type is activated, when there are no cylon players, follow the normal rules. If there are cylon players, they may choose to EITHER activate the ships on the main board, or follow the CFB placement/pursuit track rules. This would allow a bit more strategy in Cylon Fleet usage, as well as allowing for a single-sector deployment to occur during component limitations as per the official rules without crippling cylon effectiveness that jump cycle.
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Jul 20, 2011 14:22
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Pander posted:1) Any time a card comes up regarding placing a ship on the main board, instead treat it as activating that type of ship. If this would lead to the activation of more than one ship type, either do only the first ship type activation listed on the card, or if there are cylon players they may choose which activation to utilize. Yeah this isn't too bad.
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Jul 20, 2011 14:32
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Pander posted:(2) Any time a cylon ship type is activated, when there are no cylon players, follow the normal rules. If there are cylon players, they may choose to EITHER activate the ships on the main board, or follow the CFB placement/pursuit track rules. This. The more choice/strategy given to either side, the better.
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Jul 20, 2011 15:06
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There's a new version of the OpenOffice spreadsheet I used to run my last game over at BoardGameGeek: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/595567/modding-with-openoffice-andor-gimp. The updates seem to have included a bevy of bugfixes and user interface improvements, moderator reminders (for things like Baltar's extra skill card or only getting one skill card in the Brig) as well as full support for the Ionian Nebula (trauma/allies) component of Exodus, if for some twisted reason you'd actually like to play with that. It seems nice; I'll probably use it again to run my next game (which will probably be coming next week). Check it out if you're interested in modding a game.
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Jul 21, 2011 07:01
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Cocks, I'd support a new expansion game with Pander's Fleet changes. also let us play as cylon leaders
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Jul 21, 2011 23:58
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Pander posted:I like two changes. This would likely be nightmare to mod. There would have to be some sort of house rule that only active players can be Cylons.
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Jul 22, 2011 02:46
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There could probably be prodigious pre-loading. "Assumed order of activation: Raiders, Basestars, Heavies. Prefer CFB placement unless it's a raider activation." It should be fairly amenable to context-dependent preloads. It should be no worse a modding issue than waiting for the CAG to place civvies after every other pursuit step.
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Jul 22, 2011 15:45
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Pander posted:There could probably be prodigious pre-loading. "Assumed order of activation: Raiders, Basestars, Heavies. Prefer CFB placement unless it's a raider activation." Well at minimum it would be one more person to wait on. You would cerainly have to make it so that one Cylon player gets to make the final call. Plus, I'm afraid that we would see every crisis having a Cylon team committee about what to do.
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Jul 22, 2011 16:06
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It'd only apply if there are forces on the human fleet board, so after every jump it's a non-issue. Like I said, it's basically the same drat thing as having the cag choose something. Typically the situation is pretty stark: one raider on the main board should be a no-brainer. ditto with lots of raiders on the main board. It'd really only be a dicussion for things like launching one missile vs. bringing other basestar over. I just figure it'd help fix some rules that don't really jive. Perhaps you could just simplify it to a die roll. 1-4 = CFB, 5-8 = main board UNLESS the cylon players preload it.
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Jul 22, 2011 21:31
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