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Dogen posted:Is it preferable to run at 1333 and 1T command rate or 1600 and 2T? I have one of those Corsair vengeance kits and it can do one or the other, but not both. The difference in speed would give you a higher theoretical bandwidth (25600MB/s vs. 21328MB/s). The difference in command rate would allow a chip to respond in one clock cycle @ 1333MHz vs. two clock cycles @ 1600MHz. Since DDR operates at half the effective frequency of the label on the stick, that means 667MHz and 800MHz respectively, or roughly 1.5ns and 1.25ns respectively for the clock period. I believe you'd see better performance in a benchmark tool with a 1T rate, but I remember from my DDR1 days  that 1T rates were difficult to achieve as the number of sticks went up (same with the timings in general, the more sticks I put in, the looser I make timing/slightly bump up DIMM voltage).I don't know if you'd notice in real-world scenarios, but I'd download a free copy of SiSoft Sandra, boot once @ 1333/1T, run mem benchmark, set to 1600/2T, run mem benchmark again. My guess is the first one possibly having less latency but less theoretical bandwidth, and the second having slightly higher latency but also more bandwidth. Go try it out, I'm curious  I'll see if there is anything interesting in the DDR3 spec itself, but it's really bland to slog through.
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Aug 5, 2011 17:29
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PC LOAD LETTER posted:Well poo poo didn't know the heat pipe HSF's had gotten that good. Last one I got was at least 3 years ago now. Guess is car radiator route or nothing for water cooling now. Yeah air cooling has gotten awesome and water cooling just isn't cool anymore now that you can buy kits at Best Buy. Only thing you need to worry about with the air coolers is if it'll fit in your case / overhang your RAM or something.
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Aug 5, 2011 17:30
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PC LOAD LETTER posted:Well poo poo didn't know the heat pipe HSF's had gotten that good. Last one I got was at least 3 years ago now. Guess is car radiator route or nothing for water cooling now. In fairness, the new air coolers sort of look like car radiators. But seriously, this is one of those advances where you install a Hyper 212+ and you're like "Why the gently caress have I been doing it some other way for so many years?" I guess heat pipe manufacturing technology wasn't up to snuff for direct contact style sinks?
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Aug 5, 2011 17:32
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movax posted:I think it's a cop out. Obviously I have no idea behind their development process, but perhaps their PCIe IP Core + the rest of their logic wasn't up to snuff. Hell, by the 7-series chipset, PCI will only be provided via PCIe to PCI bridge chips like the PEX 8112 at motherboard manufacturer discretion, so people with PCI cards will be going through PCIe whether they like it or not. Never struck me as honest reasoning either way, seeing that they'd be going from a shared lower speed bus to a dedicated high speed link. --edit: BTW, why are we discussing 1600MHz DDR3 with the SB? I thought it doesn't do more than 1333MHz. Combat Pretzel fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Aug 5, 2011 |
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Aug 5, 2011 18:13
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Combat Pretzel posted:They were yapping something about "overly increased" latencies due to larger packet sizes and what not, interfering with general audio playback, introducing clicks and such. Creative Labs PCI sound cards used to be terrible with this on those old VIA AMD motherboards and the two would just point fingers at each other.
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Aug 5, 2011 20:09
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WhyteRyce posted:Creative Labs PCI sound cards used to be terrible with this on those old VIA AMD motherboards and the two would just point fingers at each other. That is if it didn't lock up the machine or getting crackling sound every time you saturate the PCI bus 
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Aug 5, 2011 20:37
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Combat Pretzel posted:They were yapping something about "overly increased" latencies due to larger packet sizes and what not, interfering with general audio playback, introducing clicks and such. It turns out 1600 is the magic number, not 1333. But that's okay, the difference is pretty small. It's not like everyone who has been happily using 1333 all this time all of a sudden have second-rate computers, there's just some more real performance gain (small) at 1600 (and above that, gains are basically theoretical only) if I understand the anandtech article correctly.
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Aug 5, 2011 20:48
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Agreed posted:It turns out 1600 is the magic number, not 1333. But that's okay, the difference is pretty small. It's not like everyone who has been happily using 1333 all this time all of a sudden have second-rate computers, there's just some more real performance gain (small) at 1600 (and above that, gains are basically theoretical only) if I understand the anandtech article correctly. I think he was saying that it was like a 1-2% increase in that article, which is worth it for like $5 or whatever the difference is. Honestly looking at the charts I could barely tell a difference.
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Aug 5, 2011 22:11
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Naw, I thought the Sandy Bridges all run at 1333 and the upcoming Ivy Bridges would bump it to 1600. I run four 4GB DIMMs, the CPU would probably not dig 1600, anyway.
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Aug 5, 2011 22:16
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Combat Pretzel posted:Naw, I thought the Sandy Bridges all run at 1333 and the upcoming Ivy Bridges would bump it to 1600. I run four 4GB DIMMs, the CPU would probably not dig 1600, anyway. I'm running four 1600mhz 4GB DIMMs with 9-9-9-24 1T, the CPU appears to be digging them fine with a slight bump to VCCIO, VCCSA and 1.53V over the 1.5V stock. Memtest+, Prime95, and occasionally even using the computer I initially had it at 1333mhz same timings 1T, no overvolt. Bumped it up to 1600mhz 9-9-9-24 1T, slight overvolt. It's doing fine, idle and load well within safe limits. So... I guess what I'm trying to say, is... I want that 2%, drat it.
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Aug 5, 2011 22:23
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Combat Pretzel posted:Naw, I thought the Sandy Bridges all run at 1333 and the upcoming Ivy Bridges would bump it to 1600. I run four 4GB DIMMs, the CPU would probably not dig 1600, anyway.
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Aug 5, 2011 22:24
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Agreed posted:I initially had it at 1333mhz same timings 1T, no overvolt. Bumped it up to 1600mhz 9-9-9-24 1T, slight overvolt. It's doing fine, idle and load well within safe limits. So... I guess what I'm trying to say, is...
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Aug 5, 2011 22:29
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Nothing tremendous, but it does seem to help with loading stuff (from an SSD) and getting lower stable latency in my DAW when working with real-time recording and monitoring of the processed signal. But it's part of an overall "do everything short of bolting a 500W peltier to the motherboard and manually wick moisture away with a complex system of tubes and a huge amount of cotton" effort, I haven't taken the OC apart piece by piece to see where I'm getting X performance, you know what I mean?
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Aug 5, 2011 22:38
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movax posted:Yeah air cooling has gotten awesome and water cooling just isn't cool anymore now that you can buy kits at Best Buy. Only thing you need to worry about with the air coolers is if it'll fit in your case / overhang your RAM or something.  WC may generally be obsolete but you could buy kits like 7-8 years ago, I don't think availability or ease of use has much to do with it. It would still be pretty slick to cool a roomful of computers with a spare case full of Iwaki pumps and a hundred feet of copper tubing buried underground or running through a pond, just as those $50 kits with tiny lovely pumps, 2 feet of hose and trashy acrylic-topped waterblocks reeked of desperation and wannabe e-cred then and still do now.Dogen posted:But seriously, this is one of those advances where you install a Hyper 212+ and you're like "Why the gently caress have I been doing it some other way for so many years?" People used to be scared of using heatsinks so big to begin with, too, that only explains away part of it but probably didn't help adoption. The whole allure of water cooling (for non-morons) was being able to move all that heat somewhere more convenient before having to somehow get it out of the water... two little waterblocks might seem more attractive than 3 pounds of copper and aluminum, aside from the possibility of spraying coolant all over everything. Derail aside, so um, I haven't been paying attention for a little while, but the IB and now SB-E delays mean that Intel won't have any new desktop CPUs for like 5+ months, right? What about the new chipset(s)? Weren't they still supposed to be releasing something that natively supported something like 12 SATA ports but still had no onboard USB 3.0? I'm overdue for an upgrade, was hoping to be able to wait but doubt I possibly can now 
Straker fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Aug 5, 2011 |
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Aug 5, 2011 23:39
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I posted this in the Overclocking thread awhile back, but I suggest anyone in the market for a cooler to take a look at the Thermalright HR-02 Macho cooler for $49.99. It performs almost as well as the $80-$100 dual-fan tower coolers, but only costs $49.99, making it a tremendous value. It also includes a Thermalright TY-140 140mm fan, which is the best fan currently on the market, with the most airflow at the lowest noise levels. Given that the fan retails for $15-20 on its own, it's really an incredible deal. It's more expensive than the Cooler Master Hyper 212+, but the performance is a lot better.
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Aug 5, 2011 23:51
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Alereon posted:I posted this in the Overclocking thread awhile back, but I suggest anyone in the market for a cooler to take a look at the Thermalright HR-02 Macho cooler for $49.99. It performs almost as well as the $80-$100 dual-fan tower coolers, but only costs $49.99, making it a tremendous value. It also includes a Thermalright TY-140 140mm fan, which is the best fan currently on the market, with the most airflow at the lowest noise levels. Given that the fan retails for $15-20 on its own, it's really an incredible deal. It's more expensive than the Cooler Master Hyper 212+, but the performance is a lot better. These have pretty wide fin spacing, so you don't need high-flow fans (they can be run semi-passively depending on your setup) to get good results. I noticed only a 1-2C difference running push-pull with Sanyo Denki 120x38mm fans vs. a single SD fan, so the fan they're shipping should be more than enough for ridiculous Sandybridge overclocks with low or zero noticeable noise. Keep in mind that it's about the same size as a Noctua D-14, and it's approximately the same height as a TRUE so it's not small by any stretch. The hole in the top is due to the mounting hardware. They E: The new model isn't shipped with the screwdriver. future ghost fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Aug 6, 2011 |
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Aug 6, 2011 01:05
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Combat Pretzel posted:They were yapping something about "overly increased" latencies due to larger packet sizes and what not, interfering with general audio playback, introducing clicks and such. I asked one of my coworkers about that earlier today, he used to develop some real latency-sensitive PCI hardware. He said that complaint may have only been valid for PCIe Gen. 1, as a x1 PCIe 1.0 link could be outperformed by PCI under rare circumstances. Otherwise it's bullshit, they had no problems with latency. quote:Derail aside, so um, I haven't been paying attention for a little while, but the IB and now SB-E delays mean that Intel won't have any new desktop CPUs for like 5+ months, right? What about the new chipset(s)? Weren't they still supposed to be releasing something that natively supported something like 12 SATA ports but still had no onboard USB 3.0? I'm overdue for an upgrade, was hoping to be able to wait but doubt I possibly can now Yeah, for massive number of SATA or Intel USB 3.0, you'll have to wait until the end of the year. I bought an old X58 board for my fileserver because 6-series screws you on the number of PCIe lanes available. IIRC Cougar Point picked up native USB 3.0 + >6 SATA ports, but I'm fuzzy on that last part. X79 should be bitchin'.
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Aug 6, 2011 05:27
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Regarding the 1T VS 2T command rate crap does having the 1T command rate help gaming performance at all or is still like the DDR1 days meaning 1T command rate doesn't get better gaming performance? I have my Corsair Vengeance RAM at DDR3 1600 9-9-9-24 2T (XMP Mode) right now. Edit: It runs at 1T command rate at DDR3 1333 but could I force my RAM to run at the 1T command rate at DDR3 1600? spasticColon fucked around with this message at 05:58 on Aug 6, 2011 |
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Aug 6, 2011 05:54
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spasticColon posted:Regarding the 1T VS 2T command rate crap does having the 1T command rate help gaming performance at all or is still like the DDR1 days meaning 1T command rate doesn't get better gaming performance? I have my Corsair Vengeance RAM at DDR3 1600 9-9-9-24 2T (XMP Mode) right now.
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Aug 6, 2011 05:58
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I went ahead and tried 1T command rate at DDR3 1600 and the RAM bandwidth went from 21GB to 21.14GB and the latency went down by ~.25ns according to sisoftware benchmark so yeah, it did make it faster. 
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Aug 6, 2011 06:23
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spasticColon posted:I went ahead and tried 1T command rate at DDR3 1600 and the RAM bandwidth went from 21GB to 21.14GB and the latency went down by ~.25ns according to sisoftware benchmark so yeah, it did make it faster. Woo, my predictions were correct! Hope it's stable there. e: .25ns you say? movax posted:or roughly 1.5ns and 1.25ns respectively for the clock period.  this is why I will die alone and unloved
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Aug 6, 2011 06:34
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movax posted:Woo, my predictions were correct! Hope it's stable there. I'll revert the changes and recheck the latency numbers again but yeah its stable even after 10 passes of the Intel burn test. Then again I only have two dimm slots populated on the motherboard not all four. Edit: I guess its rounding up to .3ns difference on the linear test of the latency benchmark and 1.3ns difference on the Random latency test while it reads the latency difference at .25ns using the the memory-z utility in the click bios on my MSI board. But still, this is just splitting hairs isn't it? spasticColon fucked around with this message at 06:55 on Aug 6, 2011 |
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Aug 6, 2011 06:38
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Think of all the time you'll save! .25 ns will add up before you know it.
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Aug 6, 2011 07:26
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Dogen posted:Think of all the time you'll save! .25 ns will add up before you know it. With a few billion cycles a second, it might!
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Aug 6, 2011 15:34
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DJ Commie posted:With a few billion cycles a second, it might! THANK you. 
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Aug 6, 2011 15:36
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At 4.6 GHz, .25 ns is just over one clock tick.
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Aug 6, 2011 18:41
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Straker posted:People used to be scared of using heatsinks so big to begin with, too, that only explains away part of it but probably didn't help adoption. It wasn't just a matter of fear, it was also the mechanical specifications of the sockets. The sockets and motherboards weren't designed to support the force necessary to get good mounting pressure with large heatsinks, and they only required enough clearance to fit 60mm heatsinks. Modern socket specifications give heatsink manufacturers much more room and much better mounts than in the past.
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Aug 7, 2011 05:12
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Factory Factory posted:At 4.6 GHz, .25 ns is just over one clock tick. I know, I was trying to be funny.
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Aug 7, 2011 05:52
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Zhentar posted:It wasn't just a matter of fear, it was also the mechanical specifications of the sockets. The sockets and motherboards weren't designed to support the force necessary to get good mounting pressure with large heatsinks, and they only required enough clearance to fit 60mm heatsinks. Modern socket specifications give heatsink manufacturers much more room and much better mounts than in the past.
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Aug 7, 2011 06:29
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Motherboards are many layers of relatively fragile connections sandwiched together... I imagine a lot of it is for the same reason you don't overtighten motherboard screws. Crunch the semi-flexible silicon and you ruin important connections, except these are around the processor and NB and stuff so if you crunch there you're extra special hosed? I guess it's sort of a "have faith in the manufacturer" thing with older processors and motherboards. I just stuck a 212+ on my LGA775 motherboard and it has no back plate, but that's about 70 pounds of clamping force. (And because of that big, heat-wicking fucker, without even getting close to the voltage ceiling for the 45nm process, I went from a 600mhz overclock to a 1000mhz overclock, score, the Q9550 is going to be doing its thing for some time yet!) Nothing broke, but it sure would have sucked if something did. I was very careful to tighten it all in small steps to distribute the force evenly. It wasn't a relaxed process in the least. Installing the Noctua NH-D14 on my recent Sandy Bridge build felt, in every regard, much safer. The backplate engineered onto the motherboard itself was a nice confidence boost to bolt that 3 pound bastard onto there and tighten the screws until they stopped without so much worry about potentially making a crunching noise. Still, while it was much more psychologically anxiety-inducing to work with the 212+ in the LGA775 and its naked silicon contact surface, I have to say that Coolermaster did their job and gave it sufficient contact area to take the tightening force without any issues, naked silicon and all.
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Aug 7, 2011 08:58
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David Kanter might be one of the spergiest guys I've ever hung out with, but he knows his poo poo. He just published an extremely in-depth look at Sandy Bridge's GPU architecture, for those who have an interest in that sort of thing: http://www.realworldtech.com/page.cfm?ArticleID=RWT080811195102&p=1
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Aug 9, 2011 23:00
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Agreed posted:Motherboards are many layers of relatively fragile connections sandwiched together... I imagine a lot of it is for the same reason you don't overtighten motherboard screws. Crunch the semi-flexible silicon and you ruin important connections, except these are around the processor and NB and stuff so if you crunch there you're extra special hosed? I guess it's sort of a "have faith in the manufacturer" thing with older processors and motherboards. I just stuck a 212+ on my LGA775 motherboard and it has no back plate, but that's about 70 pounds of clamping force. (And because of that big, heat-wicking fucker, without even getting close to the voltage ceiling for the 45nm process, I went from a 600mhz overclock to a 1000mhz overclock, score, the Q9550 is going to be doing its thing for some time yet!) gently caress, nothing was scarier than 775 pushpin heatsinks. I have a True 120 and I'd rather bolt that motherfucker on than play the pushpin game again. Before I built a friends computer I read that sometimes they can be a bit finnicky and hard to push through... I had that motherfucker over my knee because 1 god drat pin was being a loving rear end in a top hat. I was checking over and over to make sure I wasn't loving retarded and doing something wrong but apparently it happens that way sometimes. Finally, after an absolutely horrifying amount of force, it magically popped in and has been fine ever since. I later would build an AMD system for someone and it's stock heatsink method was way loving easier and felt more trustworthy. Latch it on and lock, mission accomplished.
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Aug 10, 2011 00:20
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I've swapped out those push-pin heatsinks hundreds of times and I don't understand the problem people have with them. You have to either have the pins in a locked position or not have the holes lined up for anywhere near that much force to be necessary. Or maybe the stock heatsinks are not as terrible as other brands
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Aug 10, 2011 00:24
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I suspect but don't know for sure that it's a combination of slight tolerance differences with motherboard makers and heat sink makers; the only issue I had with the LGA775 cooler (after market, AC Freezer Pro 7) was that it did bend the motherboard slightly on installing it (before mounting the motherboard to the standoffs). I was much better prepared for that when I swapped it over last week to the 212+ (which didn't flex it nearly as much, either, thanks to the mounting bracket distributing the force much better), but installing the AC back in 2008 and seeing the motherboard flex while knowing that it's got tons of thin metal traces running all through it was pretty scary. And the AC Freezer Pro 7 has good mounting hardware, it was not difficult to install, much easier than Intel's finicky stock cooler from that time period. Nice, firm lock into place, no screwdriver required for any of it, big plastic knobs to turn to open and close the retention clips... But I'm never going back to a cooler that doesn't use a mounting bracket ever again. gently caress that. Mounting brackets are a massive improvement over the old way of doing things. Putting the NH-14D onto the LGA1155 board was just dead simple. You could not possibly gently caress anything up. It didn't cause the motherboard to flex, either. Well done by Noctua, much better mounting hardware than the 212+, but then for an extra $60 I guess you'd have every right to expect that. The 212+' mounting hardware was still much better than the push-pins on the LGA775, but the single mounting point on it allows for about 5º of rotation and if you don't notice it before you tighten it down, it'll be a bit rotated. No big deal, though, it still wicks heat like crazy and makes great contact with the processor. Agreed fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Aug 10, 2011 |
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Aug 10, 2011 00:41
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Agreed posted:I suspect but don't know for sure that it's a combination of slight tolerance differences with motherboard makers and heat sink makers; the only issue I had with the LGA775 cooler (after market, AC Freezer Pro 7) was that it did bend the motherboard slightly on installing it (before mounting the motherboard to the standoffs). I was much better prepared for that when I swapped it over last week to the 212+ (which didn't flex it nearly as much, either, thanks to the mounting bracket distributing the force much better), but installing the AC back in 2008 and seeing the motherboard flex while knowing that it's got tons of thin metal traces running all through it was pretty scary. The AC Freezer Pro 7 uses a different mounting scheme than Intel's pushpin one. quote:it was not difficult to install, much easier than Intel's finicky stock cooler from that time period. Nice, firm lock into place, no screwdriver required for any of it, big plastic knobs to turn to open and close the retention clips... You actually just described the Intel stock heatsink.
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Aug 10, 2011 00:51
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I described the AC Freezer Pro 7. I have the damned thing in a box in the next room, I'm not talking out my rear end here. While they are similar in concept, in execution I found it much easier to work with the AC Freezer Pro 7 than the Intel one, which didn't seem to be as well made, the pin retention turning mechanism seemed iffy by comparison.
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Aug 10, 2011 01:07
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Locks firm in place, no screw driver required, big plastic knobs to open and close...that is exactly what the stock heat sink has. I have used the same heatsink on my Yorkfield system, I liked my AC Pro Freezer 7 but I don't understand how it's so much easier to setup or more fool proof when it has a bunch of loose pieces and a "fits on any socket if you use the right pins and line the mounting bracket up correctly" design. The stock heatsink isn't a great performer or anything. But it does the job and after swapping them out hundreds of times I do not understand why people have problems with it. Hell, its the only heatsink I've worked with where I can put it on or take it off with one hand and not even have to have a clear view of it. WhyteRyce fucked around with this message at 05:15 on Aug 10, 2011 |
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Aug 10, 2011 05:04
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WhyteRyce posted:I've swapped out those push-pin heatsinks hundreds of times and I don't understand the problem people have with them. You have to either have the pins in a locked position or not have the holes lined up for anywhere near that much force to be necessary. Or maybe the stock heatsinks are not as terrible as other brands I had 3 pins in but the last one didn't want to quite lock in. It was lined up and through the hole, but it needed to go down just a smidge more to actually lock in and was putting up a comical fight for some reason.
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Aug 10, 2011 08:54
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WhyteRyce posted:Locks firm in place, no screw driver required, big plastic knobs to open and close...that is exactly what the stock heat sink has. I have used the same heatsink on my Yorkfield system, I liked my AC Pro Freezer 7 but I don't understand how it's so much easier to setup or more fool proof when it has a bunch of loose pieces and a "fits on any socket if you use the right pins and line the mounting bracket up correctly" design. Maybe it's because you've done it hundreds of times, while most of us have done it once or twice and that's plenty to decide it loving blows compared to a mounting bracket. I don't have to think about it in the big picture sense that it seems you do - do you build systems professionally, it seems like you must to have done it hundreds of times. To draw an analogy, I'm really good at setting up a guitar. I do it all the time, if you told me to swap out pickups and electronics and give a full setup including a bit of extra work to shield the cavities, no sweat. I've done that a lot, I'm good at it now. But I would understand if someone else who has maybe one main guitar digs into that process and finds that it is complicated and difficult, and the first time they use a drop-in replacement pickguard that's pre-wired and only requires a single component soldered (the output jack) they think "holy gently caress, this is how I'm doing it from now on if I ever need this done." Your experience with the platform is affording you a broader perspective and I'm not trying to say that for you it's hard, I'm just letting you know that for me, a couple times with that clip poo poo (and while the AC Freezer Pro 7's version was better than the Intel stock one as far as robustness/build quality goes, it was still poo poo) is for the birds and I will use a mounting bracket every time from here on out because it's so much easier for the new computer I'll build every two or three years. I hope that clarifies my stance on it, I'm not suggesting that you suck at it, just letting you know that I do and as a result I say gently caress that. Cool?
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Aug 10, 2011 09:04
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I've had those Intel push pin HSF's go right in and then I've had them be a real struggle to get on too, no rhyme or reason why it just happens some times.
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Aug 10, 2011 09:27
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