- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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quote:The AFP news agency reports, citing sources close to the Tunisian security services, that Libyan rebels have held talks with members of Gaddafi's government in the Tunisian town of Djerba.
"Talks took place during last night at a Djerba hotel under heavy security," a source close to the Tunisian security services told AFP. "Corteges of cars on Sunday crossed the border at Ras Jedir, near Djerba", the source added, asking not to be named.
An airport source told AFP that a South African jet and two Qatari military helicopters had been seen at the Djerba airport.
Ahmed Hijazi, the Libyan health minister, and Ibrahim Sherif, the Libyan social affairs minister, stayed in Djerba on Sunday, the official TAP news agency reported. It said that Abdelati Obeidi, the Libyan foreign minister, joined them there.
Funny timing that they had that meeting, then the Libyan interior minister took his Egyptian holiday.
[edit]quote:Seems Nasser Mabrouk got a demotion, Libyan officals are saying he just works at the ministry, and isn't the interior minister according to Jomana Karadsheh of CNN:
quote:
regime official in #Tripoli confirms al-Mabrouk's travel, says he is NOT interior min- he held position at ministry
regime official to CNN:min of Int is al-Sanusi al-Wuzri.al-Mabrouk is NOT on official business trip, reasons for travel unknown.
Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 14:06 on Aug 15, 2011
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Aug 15, 2011 13:48
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ADBOT LOVES YOU
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Apr 24, 2024 15:21
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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Bit of news from Brega:
quote:Libyan rebels battle for full control of Brega
Libyan rebels on Monday fought forces loyal to Moamer Kadhafi around oil installations in the key eastern town of Brega while keeping a firm grip on a residential zone, an AFP reporter saw.
Brega’s eastern residential zone three — rows of seaside apartment blocks that once housed the workforce of this strategic oil hub — was under total rebel control.
Many homes in the town however have been pillaged while streets are littered with ammunition shells and the carcasses of Kadhafi’s military vehicle destroyed by NATO’s air strikes.
Rebels shuttled to and from the front line, which now lies in western Brega, near its oil installations, where they traded artillery fire with Kadhafi’s troops.
Plumes of black smoke billowed across the sky as oil tankers burned after being set alight by loyalist forces, rebels said.
The coastline is booby-trapped with mines laid by Kadhafi’s forces in a bid to deter attacks from the sea. quote:Al Jazeera's Tony Birtley has just been reporting live from Brega, where he says that rebel forces claim they control two-thirds of the city. The remaining one-third, however, contains the industrial area and the oil terminal, which when in operation pumped out about $35 million a day in oil.
He said that there is evidence of heavy fighting and casualties, and that the area has been strewn with mines.
Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 14:21 on Aug 15, 2011
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Aug 15, 2011 14:17
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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There's only one thing the rebels love more than freedom and democracy...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NRH_jHX1p0
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Aug 15, 2011 14:30
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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From the AJE Live blog
quote:Abdel Ilah al-Khatib, the UN secretary-general's envoy for Libya, has flown to Tunis to take part in talks between rebels and representatives of Muammar Gaddafi's government, AFP reports.
Khatib, a former Jordanian prime minister, said that the talks would take place in a hotel in the suburbs of Tunis.
[edit]More from the AJE Live Blog
quote:
The official TAP news agency reports that negotiations are ongoing with "several other foreign parties" with regards to the Libyan conflict, and a source has told the AFP news agency that an envoy of Hugo Chavez, the Venezuelan president, was also present.
Something to note, if all these Gaddafi ministers are in Tunisia for these negoiations, and the rebels control the coastal road, how do they plan to get back to Tripoli?
Also, Ian Woods of Sky News continues in his quest to reach the Tunisian/Libyan border
quote: Held up at a Tunisian army checkpoint close to the border. There was no military presence here 2 days ago. Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 14:46 on Aug 15, 2011
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Aug 15, 2011 14:38
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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This is apparently a video of prisoners being released by rebels in Surman yesterday.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9XU3LdoNWQ
I wish I spoke Arabic so I knew what everyone was saying, and what the signs said, so I could figure out where they are exactly.
Here's the latest AJE report from Zawiyah
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr5t92hL2Q0
And this video is apparently rebel forces massing before there attack on Tiji earlier today:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG4Up1hB9Po
Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 15:16 on Aug 15, 2011
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Aug 15, 2011 15:07
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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@ChangeInLibya, has been tweeting a report from Al Jazeera Arabic:
quote:
Aljazeera reporter Abduladim Mohammad is LIVE FROM SABRATHA west of Zawiya he says 90% of city is under FF control except 1 army base
Abduladim Mohammad says that families of Sabratha were given weapons by G forces but as soon as FF entered city residents gave up weapons
FREEDOM FIGHTERS FULLY CONTROL THE Tunisia - Tripoli road - from Sorman to Zawiya
Freedom fighters are allowing food and humanitarian aid trucks going to Tripoli but searching other vehicles
Freedom fighters are surrounding the Sabratha army base and the last remaining Gaddafi soldiers want to surrender
Amazing scenes from Sabratha on Aljazeera Arabic right now... Mashallah Abduladim Mohammad is doing an amazing job
Freedom fighter leaders say that Gaddafi forces collapsed all over the coastal cities as soon as FF entered
FF leaders also suspect that all coastal cities on the way to Tunisia (e.g. Zwara) will be easy to liberate
FF leaders were surprised. They planned for a much more difficult scenario where each city would be besieged
This is an audio version of Tony Birtley of AJE report from Brega, I'm hoping I can find a video version so I can ID his location.
If the rebels claims about Mizdah and Tiji are true then it could be as significant as reaching Zawiyah. Mizdah is on the other main supply route to Tripoli, and would be another major blow to the regime supply lines. If they secure it, and head to Bani Walid then they could link up with Misrata and completely surround Tripoli. The rumour is they captured the Mizdah military base, and captured 100 tanks.
Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Aug 15, 2011
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Aug 15, 2011 15:39
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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Ian Woods of Sky News has reached the Tunisian/Libyan border crossing, and is Tweeting from there now:
quote:Border at Ras Jdir virtually deserted. Very little traffic going either way. Can see civilian border staff at Libyan side but no soldiers
They may be further back out of sight. But there is so little traffic there is no need for anyone to be outside
Spoke to a few people who said the road was closed near to Zawiya. But one man insisted everything was clear to Tripoli.
If the road really was open, there would be trucks heading through here. I haven't seen one in an hour
Managed to walk into no man's land unchallenged. Close enough to see the first Libyan checkpoint but not others beyond
One driver also reported hearing gunfire close to Sabratha
Can't vouch for the veracity of accounts from drivers..just passing on what they told me.
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Aug 15, 2011 16:38
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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Here's a story from Reuters about the fighting in Zawiyah:
quote:Libya's Zawiyah on edge after rebel capture
For 12 hours, Libyan rebel Ahmed Oraybee had been moving from one building to the next in the town of Zawiyah, trying to hunt down the pro-government snipers stalking its neighbourhoods.
Suddenly he became a victim himself when a bullet struck him in the leg.
"These snipers are really good. The sniper shot me in the leg as I was climbing a staircase so that a comrade or two would come and help me, and then he would try to kill all of us," he told Reuters, speaking from a bed at Bir Muammar Hospital.
"They have a well thought-out plan."
Rebels attacked Zawiyah on Saturday and say they now control about 80 percent of the strategic town which lies 50 km (30 miles) west of Tripoli.
The fighters are focused on capturing or killing the snipers and clearing out any other pro-government forces so they can then set up barricades, secure Zawiyah and move on to the capital Tripoli, Muammar Gaddafi's stronghold.
Gaddafi's men have recaptured Zawiyah twice before so the rebels say they are being extra cautious and thorough.
"The snipers are in many tall buildings in Zawiyah. It will take time to hunt them down," said Oraybee, 26, who was an accountant before he took up arms.
In central Zawiyah, a few families drove cars past a group of about 40 rebels and beeped to celebrate the rebel advance. A man and his sons grinned as fighters sped by in pick-up trucks mounted with machineguns.
But Grad missiles, mortars and bullets sporadically fired by Gaddafi's men kept the town on edge. Almost all shops remained shuttered.
A man named Waleed, his shirt drenched in his sister's blood, held her hand, hoping doctors would keep her alive after shrapnel from a mortar bomb hit her in the neck and hips.
He said he was also praying government forces never return to Zawiyah. "Gaddafi terrified us for months. His men randomly raided homes and beat people and took their valuables," said Waleed, with tears in his eyes.
As wounded rebels were brought to the hospital, others tried to gather information on the movements of Gaddafi forces in Zawiyah.
One medic said government forces had stored large amounts of weapons in the Zawiyah Teaching Hospital. Rumours spread that large numbers of government forces were killed in the facility.
Control of the Zawiyah oil refinery, one of the country's biggest, remained in the hands of government forces but rebels said they were closing in on them.
Rebel Omar al Magherby set up his automatic rifle with a long cartridge belt dangling from it outside the hospital "in case of any attacks".
He spoke of Gaddafi - who has ruled Libya for over four decades -- as if he had special powers.
The news that he and his fellow rebels had captured most of Zawiyah and cut off Tripoli from a vital supply route from Tunisia seemed almost too good to be true.
Suspicions run deep in Zawiyah. Rebels arrested 15 men they said were African mercenaries and Libyan soldiers fighting for Gaddafi and locked them inside a building beside the hospital.
One of them, a Nigerian, pleaded, saying he was working in Zawiyah at a car wash. "I am innocent," he said, as a rebel just shook his head, pointed his weapon and told him to produce work papers.
Inside the hospital, medics wheeled in a man they said was a Gaddafi militiaman who was suffering from a gunshot wound. His jaw was hanging by the flesh.
Until they capture or expel the remaining government forces, Zawiyah will remain unstable.
"I was just sitting at home and they got me," said an Egyptian man who was shot by a sniper, as a doctor put the patient's cellphone in a plastic bag and took his pulse.
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Aug 15, 2011 16:41
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- Xandu
- Feb 19, 2006
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It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.
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Brown Moses posted:
Ian Woods of Sky News has reached the Tunisian/Libyan border crossing, and is Tweeting from there now:
The Tunisian military has activated again near the border, though. They're probably worried about arms trafficking with Libyan border guards gone.
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Aug 15, 2011 17:06
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- Xandu
- Feb 19, 2006
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It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.
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Syria has banned the sale of foreign currency. I wonder if that means the elite was transferring their money abroad.
quote:
BEIRUT: Syria’s Central Bank has told banks and money exchanges to limit sales of foreign currency, the state news agency SANA said Monday, in the government’s latest step to stem financial damage from five months of popular unrest.
The Central Bank commission responsible for combating money laundering and terrorism financing said they should only offer foreign currency when there was “economic justification” for the transaction.
Sales of foreign currency to Syrians travelling abroad should be made one day before departure, with a maximum two transactions per year. Banks should obtain a commitment that any money not used be changed back within a week, SANA said.
The Central Bank commission also limited the amount of foreign exchange Syrians could buy – except where there was economic justification – to the equivalent of $1,000 per month, with a maximum three transactions per year.
Syrian officials say the Central Bank reserves stood at around $18 billion before the protests against President Bashar Assad erupted in March. But regional bankers say the reserves have been diminishing by around $70-$80 million a week as the bank has sought to support the Syrian pound exchange rate.
The official exchange rate stands at 47.4 pounds to the U.S. dollar, but dollars are changing hands on the black market at 51 pounds to the dollar and above.
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Aug 15, 2011 17:09
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- Zeroisanumber
- Oct 23, 2010
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Nap Ghost
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Xandu posted:
Syria has banned the sale of foreign currency. I wonder if that means the elite was transferring their money abroad.
That's exactly what it means. Hopefully it's a sign that Assad and his thugs are starting to lose the confidence of the rich and powerful in Syria, but it's probably just a bunch of old bastards being extra-cautious.
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Aug 15, 2011 17:12
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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Rumour is the private jets at Tripoli airport are arranged by the UN so Gaddafi and family can leave Tripoli.
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Aug 15, 2011 17:33
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- Golbez
- Oct 9, 2002
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1 2 3!
If you want to take a shot at me get in line, line
1 2 3!
Baby, I've had all my shots and I'm fine
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Brown Moses posted:
Rumour is the private jets at Tripoli airport are arranged by the UN so Gaddafi and family can leave Tripoli.
Why by the UN?
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Aug 15, 2011 17:45
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- Xandu
- Feb 19, 2006
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It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.
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Nobody else is allowed to land planes in Tripoli due to no-fly zone and the UN is participating (or at least present) at talks in Tunisia. Doesn't mean it's true, but that's why it's plausible.
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Aug 15, 2011 17:48
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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This is apparently Sabha, a poster of Gaddafi being burnt:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuHhNfeWiSc
CNN report about the release of prisoners in Surman.
An update of the days events from the Guardian:
quote:Libya shows signs of slipping from Muammar Gaddafi's graspMuammar Gaddafi's regime has shown fresh signs of buckling as rebels have come close to cutting off supply routes and the Libyan interior minister arrived in Egypt in what appeared to be the highest-ranking defection for many months.
The Libyan leader broadcast a defiant appeal to his supporters to rid the country of "traitors", telling them: "The blood of martyrs is fuel for the battle." But the call was issued over a poor telephone line to state television, and most was inaudible – the result of what officials said was a technical breakdown.
Gaddafi's rallying call came as rebel fighters moved into Zawiyah, 30 miles west of Tripoli, straddling a critical road supply route from the Tunisian border. Rebel forces claimed to have near total control of the town, but government troops still held its oil refinery, the regime's last homegrown supply of fuel. Reuters reported that pro-government snipers in Zawiyah were firing on any civilians who ventured out of doors.
The anti-Gaddafi National Transitional Council (NTC) also claimed to have taken the city of Surman and said it was close to gaining control of Sabratha, along the same coastal road. A rebel spokesman said that talks were under way with government forces over their surrender.
There were clashes near the Ras Ajdir border crossing with Tunisia, and opposition forces were reported to be pushing towards Tripoli from the south having taken the strategic crossroads of Garyan over the weekend. Control of Garyan, in the Nafusah highlands, cuts off Tripoli from the Gaddafi stronghold of Sabha in the south. The multi-pronged offensive was an attempt by rebel commanders to cut off Tripoli's supply lines and regain the initiative after the killing of their military leader, General Abdul Fattah Younes.
With the pressure now on Gaddafi's forces, rebels in the formerly besieged stronghold of Misrata were able to relax for the first time in months.
"We feel good, things are moving," said Mohammed Elfeturi, 35, of the Faisal (Sword) brigade, alternately sipping his first coffee of the day and puffing his first cigarette. "We paid for it in blood."
Traffic was heavy on the intersection outside the makeshift coffee bar, no more than a small shop with some plastic tables and chairs arranged on the concrete outside. A few months ago, the area was a free-fire zone where rebels fought for their lives against government troops.
Gaddafi's Grad rockets no longer fall on Misrata, and the talk everywhere is of impending victory as news comes of advances in the west at Zawiyah, and in the east at Brega. Rebels pushed east from Misrata at the weekend, meeting light resistance, and say all that holds them back is fear of being hit by mistake by Nato jets.
Fighting continues on the other side of the pocket, where rebels say government units, said to be commanded by Gaddafi's son Khamis, hold the town of Zlitan on the highway to Tripoli. But the fighters say the fight has gone out of their adversary.
"I think Nato did its job," said 20-year-old Farouk Mohammed, a veteran of five months' fighting. "They bombed his [Gaddafi's] weapons day after day."
British defence officials have also claimed that four months of relentless air strikes had fatally damaged the ability Gaddafi's forces to mount operations.
They indicated that the rebel seizure of Zawiyah signalled the beginning of the end in Libya. More than 7,000 Nato air strike sorties, some 700 of them British, had finally destroyed Libya's military machine, with Gaddafi's troops having to resort to pickup trucks, officials added.
In another blow to the regime's morale, the interior minister and a longstanding Gaddafi security aide, Nasser al-Mabrouk Abdullah, arrived in Cairo via Tunisia in a private plane with nine family members. The minister reportedly told officials he was on holiday, and the Egyptian government said the minister had entered on a tourist visa. According to the Associated Press, there were no Libyan diplomats at the airport to greet Abdullah and the embassy in Cairo had not been informed of his visit.
A Whitehall source said: "He has a reputation as a hardline Gaddafi loyalist with a long history in the security and intelligence agencies. If he is confirmed to have abandoned Gaddafi now, it is significant."
The UN special envoy for Libya, Abdel-Elah al-Khatib, was in Tunis on Monday where a Tunisian government spokesman said he would meet "all the Libyan parties". But both Tripoli and the rebel council denied reports that their delegations were talking to each other in the Tunisian coastal town of Djerba.
"Why would we be talking to Gaddafi?" said Guma al-Gamaty, an NTC spokesman in London. "Right now, we have reached a tipping point, and he will probably fall in the next couple of weeks."
He said NTC forces would be careful to minimise the impact of their near siege of Tripoli on the citizen population, but he added: "The people know that whatever suffering there is in the short term will be worth it if it squeezes Gaddafi out."
A NTC statement issued on Monday called on people in Gaddafi-controlled area to organise themselves into "local committees to maintain security on the eve of the regime's downfall, and to raise awareness about the need for safeguarding public property, including universities, schools, hospitals, petrol stations, facilities and buildings, as they are the people's property, built with our own effort, sweat, money and sacrifice."
quote:No stalemate in Libya – the writing is on the wall for Gaddafi
Take a look on Google and you'll find more than 1,500 news items combining the words "Libya" and "stalemate". Repeating the search for Syria and "stalemate" reveals a mere 109 items, and for Yemen only 73.
This is rather strange, because the Yemeni and Syrian uprisings – unlike that in Libya – are both obvious examples of a state of stalemate. In Yemen and Syria, the regimes have no prospect of restoring the status quo, but at the same time it's difficult to see how their opponents can decisively gain the upper hand.
That has never really been the case in Libya, despite many articles predicting that stalemate would occur, and others treating it as an established fact. Once Nato intervened and the National Transitional Council (NTC) began winning international recognition, the writing was on the wall for Gaddafi.
It has turned into a drawn-out struggle and Gaddafi's forces have had successes as well as failures along the way, but the overall direction has always been clear: the regime's opponents have been getting stronger while the regime itself, under multiple pressures, has been steadily weakening. There is also no realistic possibility now that Gaddafi can reverse this trend.
Even after allowing for a degree of exaggeration, reports over the last few days show the anti-Gaddafi forces making significant military gains, which could seriously disrupt supplies to the regime's stronghold in Tripoli.
A meeting in Tunisia on Sunday evening between the warring sides has also given rise to speculation that Gaddafi's exit is under discussion again. On Monday, the regime seemed to suffer a further political blow when Gaddafi's interior minister turned up in Cairo with nine members of his family – ostensibly on a tourist visit, though defection seems more likely, as the Libyan embassy in Egypt was unaware of his arrival.
These may be signs that Gaddafi's fall is imminent, but there are still too many unknown factors for anyone to be sure. We don't, for example, know how much cohesion there still is within Gaddafi's inner circle. As they feel the squeeze, however, internal rifts are far more likely – and the interior minister's "holiday" may be an example of that.
Similarly, once Gaddafi's remaining supporters sense that his departure is inevitable, those who have depended on his patronage or supported him through fear of the alternatives will have to reconsider their options – and when that starts happening, the collapse could come quite suddenly.
Though the eventual outcome is not in doubt, frustration at the length of time it is taking has led to talk of a Libyan "quagmire" – as if, after 41 years of Gaddafi's rule, a few extra months are going to make some crucial difference.
Obviously, the conflict should not be prolonged unnecessarily, but there are also dangers in too much haste. In the early stages, the anti-Gaddafi forces tried to do too much too soon – and suffered the consequences. Since then, they have had more time to get their act together and give serious thought to the political transition. A document leaked to the Times last week shows that the NTC is much better prepared now than it was just a few months ago.
If it came to a choice between fighting for Tripoli and letting Gaddafi stew there for a while until there is an orderly handover, the latter would certainly be preferable.
A quick exit for Gaddafi is less important than a well-managed transition – one that minimises the risk of bloodletting and score-settling when Tripoli falls, and sets the country on a course for truly representative government.
It'll be interesting to see how long it takes for Tripoli to start feeling the effects of their link to Tunisia being closed. All reports suggest it was a major route for the transport of fuel supplies, and I doubt that there's been that much stockpiling of fuel, so I expect them to run out very quickly. Hopefully tomorrow there will be confirmation of what has happening in Mizdah, if that's captured then Gaddafi really is hosed.
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Aug 15, 2011 21:44
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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This is an alarming story from the Telegraph:
quote:Col Gaddafi fires scud missile at rebel territory as Nato braces itself for final violent showdown
The rebels were attempting to identify the trajectory of the missile which was fired from Col Gaddafi's stronghold of Sirte even as his envoys headed for new talks with the opposition and a United Nations special envoy in Tunisia.
Despite rumours that he is preparing to flee, the opposition fear Col Gaddafi is preparing a desperate last stand in Tripoli and towns still loyal to him in the face of recent rebel advances on two fronts which has cut off his crucial supply routes.
In the early hours of Monday morning, the defiant Libyan leader addressed his people, calling on them to take up arms and "defend their fatherland" and predicting a swift end for "the rats" and the "coloniser" - the rebels and Nato.
But in a further sign of his weakening position, his deputy interior minister, said to be a long-time devoted loyalist, then apparently defected. Nasser al-Mabrouk Abdullah arrived in the Egyptian capital Cairo with nine members of his family claiming he was taking a holiday.
The launch of the ballistic Scud missile, which has a range of more than 200 miles, was detected by a US Aegis destroyer in the Mediterranean on Sunday, officials told The Daily Telegraph.
The regime is thought to possess more than 100 of the Scud B variant missiles. It agreed to destroy them in a deal to end sanctions a decade ago, but rows over their replacement mean the systems remain intact.
Although military planners believe that the majority of the missiles were taken out in recent air strikes, several mobile brigades are thought still to exist.
The missile fired may have been targeting rebel troop formations around Ajdabiyah, a key junction town seized from the regime earlier this year and home to the advance military headquarters of the rebels. It is believed the missile landed in the desert.
"That it didn't hit anything or kill anyone is not the point. It's a weapon of mass destruction that Col Gaddafi is willing to train on his own people," said one Western official.
Sirte, which was Col Gaddafi's birthplace and lies between Misurata and the rebels' eastern front line in Brega, is a potential site for a last stand if Tripoli comes under attack. While consolidating their hold on most residential parts of Brega, the rebels are also now just 30 miles from Tripoli to the west, having taken part of the town of Zawiyah, and 50 miles to the south, after claiming to have taken the garrison town of Gharyan.
From Sirte, the regime could still move Scuds through the desert to target the main rebel strongholds such as Misurata and Zintan. Col Gaddafi has a history of using Scud missiles to lash back at attacks.
The missiles were fired at the southern Italian island of Lampedusa after the 1986 bombing of Tripoli by President Ronald Reagan.
Western officials pointed to the seizure by rebels of much of Zawiyah at the weekend and the apparent defection of Nasser al-Mabrouk Abdullah as a sign of Col Gaddafi's weakening position.
Mr Abdullah was appointed a minister in June, part of a reshuffle following earlier defections.
He had been director of intelligence and was interior minister until 2006, when the shooting dead of 11 Islamist protesters outside the Italian embassy was deemed "disproportionate use of force" even for Libya and he was sacked.
Nevertheless, he remained among the most hardline loyalists of the Gaddafi apparatus.
Meanwhile, Libyan loyalists and rebels met yesterday as efforts to negotiate an end to the conflict intensified.
They were joined by a UN envoy, Abdul Elah al-Khatib, who arrived in Tunis last night and said he would hold talks with Libyan representatives over the coming days. Libyan government and opposition representatives have reportedly been meeting in a Tunisian hotel, but a regime spokesman continued to rule out any negotiated departure for the Libyan leader.
Col Gaddafi himself gave a live broadcast in the early hours of yesterday morning by telephone, defiantly predicting victory over the "rats".
"The Libyan people will remain and the revolution will remain," he shouted.
"Be prepared, go forth, get your weapons, to liberate Libya inch by inch from the traitors and from NATO."
His troops continued to put up resistance in Zawiyah after the attack that dislodged them from the south of the town, including the main road from Tripoli to the western border with Tunisia, on Saturday. Rebels claimed to have control of 80 per cent of the city of 300,000 people, but admitted that government snipers were still inflicting serious casualties.
Doctors in the rebel garrison town of Zintan said that they had treated dozens of men injured in the fighting. Fourteen men were killed on Sunday alone.
"We are treating many wounded in the battle, they have gunshot wounds from snipers mainly," said a urologist who had flown in from Qatar to treat casualties.
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Aug 15, 2011 21:48
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- Toplowtech
- Aug 31, 2004
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Brown Moses posted:
This is an alarming story from the Telegraph:
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Aug 15, 2011 21:58
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- Zeroisanumber
- Oct 23, 2010
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Nap Ghost
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Brown Moses posted:It'll be interesting to see how long it takes for Tripoli to start feeling the effects of their link to Tunisia being closed. All reports suggest it was a major route for the transport of fuel supplies, and I doubt that there's been that much stockpiling of fuel, so I expect them to run out very quickly. Hopefully tomorrow there will be confirmation of what has happening in Mizdah, if that's captured then Gaddafi really is hosed.
There was that report earlier that the UN has flown jets into Tripoli airport. I'm thinking that they might have been brought there to entice Gaddafi into exile by presenting a viable exit.
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Aug 15, 2011 22:03
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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Toplowtech posted:
So he is down to shooting old soviet ballistic missile and hoping that they hit something? What versions of scuds and what type of warheads do he own?
My concern is if they are being fired from Sirte they are in range of Misrata and Benghazi, so he might decide to launch them into the cities.
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Aug 15, 2011 22:14
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- dj_clawson
- Jan 12, 2004
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We are all sinners in the eyes of these popsicle sticks.
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How dangerous are scuds? Saddam dropped a ton of scud missiles on Israel during the Gulf War and there were no major deaths. I once met a couple who named their dog "scud" because they rescued him from a pound during the war.
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Aug 15, 2011 22:18
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- BlackJosh
- Sep 25, 2007
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I haven't properly thanked you, Brown Moses, for how much information you have imparted to me. Thanks so much for all the work you've put in relaying all this info. Really really cool of you.
dj_clawson posted:
How dangerous are scuds? Saddam dropped a ton of scud missiles on Israel during the Gulf War and there were no major deaths. I once met a couple who named their dog "scud" because they rescued him from a pound during the war.
I mean, they are missiles at the end of the day, but are not very accurate or anything. They're as dangerous as V2s were in World War II, probably. But then again, they seemed to fail at a way worse rate in the Gulf War than even those first ballistic missiles, so who knows?
Probably more dangerous as a morale buster than anything they can actually do physically.
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Aug 15, 2011 22:25
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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I think he had chemical warhead, but they were destroyed, I hope.
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Aug 15, 2011 22:26
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- BlackJosh
- Sep 25, 2007
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Brown Moses posted:
I think he had chemical warhead, but they were destroyed, I hope.
Yeah, the only real substantial damage to be done with a SCUD would be with a non-conventional warhead.
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Aug 15, 2011 22:29
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- Toplowtech
- Aug 31, 2004
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An old blog article from March:
http://www.iiss.org/whats-new/iiss-voices/?blogpost=154
quote:On Monday, the Pentagon revealed that one of the targets in its recent overnight raids in Libya had been ‘a Scud surface-to-surface missile facility’. Not much has been said in recent weeks about Libya's Scuds, but as a Wikileaks document from 2010 makes clear they were not all destroyed under the 2004 agreement between Libya, the US and UK on dismantling Libya’s WMD programmes.
At least one Scud transport erector launcher (TEL) can be seen on video of the 2009 parade celebrating Gadhafi’s 40 years in power. Images of a Scud TEL apparently captured near Benghazi on 22 February provide more recent proof.
How many Libyan Scuds remain? The latest IISS Military Balance calculates the Libyan government has around 45 FROG-7 artillery rockets with a range of around 70km. However the number of longer-range Scud-Bs – able to reach around 300km – is unknown.
No-one knows either what shape any remaining missiles might be in. While not destroyed under the 2004 tripartite agreement, they were earmarked for it, and may even have been put into storage pending destruction (although this is unlikely if no successor system had been identified for the Libyan military).
Further, there are no indications that the warheads would contain anything other than a conventional payload, and it is hard to see them being militarily useful in the current phases of the campaign, which seem to be based on ground combat engagements with limited air support. The Scud is relatively inaccurate; and its estimated circular error probable of about 450m would limit its utility in support of ground troops.
And yet and yet: Libya has used its Scuds before. It fired two or three towards the island of Lampedusa in the wake of the US air attack on Libya in April 1986, although the rounds fell in the Mediterranean.
So if the systems are serviceable, their use cannot be wholly discounted. This is particularly the case if they form part of a strategic reserve. Scud missiles could be used to intimidate civilian populations, attack rebel strongholds or engage rebel formations facing increasingly restricted mobility. They could also be used against rebel bases, assembly areas or regional installations within range that could be used as part of any sanctions regime – if the regime perceives itself engaged in a fight for survival.
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Aug 15, 2011 22:35
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- Zeroisanumber
- Oct 23, 2010
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Nap Ghost
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dj_clawson posted:
How dangerous are scuds? Saddam dropped a ton of scud missiles on Israel during the Gulf War and there were no major deaths. I once met a couple who named their dog "scud" because they rescued him from a pound during the war.
They'll wreck your day if they hit nearby, but they're in no way a game changer. At this point launching them would just be a spiteful move, "From Hell's Heart!" and all that.
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Aug 15, 2011 22:37
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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This is apparently a video of rebels entering Sabratha
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYceGEdWmN8
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Aug 15, 2011 23:01
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- Xandu
- Feb 19, 2006
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It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.
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Brown Moses posted:
This is an alarming story from the Telegraph:
The Telegraph also just published a story about how the Navy Seals could be planning to kill al-Megrahi and a highly detailed, but questionably sourced (and doubtful considering what's currently happening in Syria) report about Iranian funding for a Syrian military base. I'm not sure about their reliablity, especially since no other paper is confirming the Scud launch and NATO hasn't said anything about it. If it were true, it seems like the kind of thing the US and NATO would want to use as proof that Gaddafi is a war criminal.
EDIT: AP is now running the story with their own sourcing, so it's probably true.
Xandu fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Aug 16, 2011
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Aug 15, 2011 23:34
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- Xandu
- Feb 19, 2006
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It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.
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Turkey's government is really stalling with any substantial measures against Syria. Lots of talk about how they condemn them, but little action, and Davutoglu continues to meet with high level Syrian officials, and even visited Damascus last week. Really disappointing. It seems, judging from this article, that they think Assad can reform and fend off the protests.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/16/world/europe/16turkey.html?_r=1
The US has isolated Syria for so long it has limited leverage, though it still has some. In contrast, Turkey has the largest foreign investment in Syria and conducts billions in trade every year. Turkey could make Assad's life way more difficult if it wanted.
Xandu fucked around with this message at 00:04 on Aug 16, 2011
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Aug 16, 2011 00:01
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- Cicero
- Dec 17, 2003
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Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.
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Would any US Navy ships be able to take out SCUDs in-flight?
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Aug 16, 2011 00:56
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- Ireland Sucks
- May 16, 2004
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Xandu posted:
The Telegraph also just published a story about how the Navy Seals could be planning to kill al-Megrahi and a highly detailed, but questionably sourced (and doubtful considering what's currently happening in Syria) report about Iranian funding for a Syrian military base.
I don't believe for a second they would try to kill Megrahi. Bin Laden was still a figurehead and potential threat but killing Megrahi would just be executing a convict living out his days in frailty. It really isn't something the US wants a reputation for doing.
Cicero posted:
Would any US Navy ships be able to take out SCUDs in-flight?
They have the tools for it, but it has only happened once
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Gloucester_%28D96%29 posted:
Gloucester served in the Gulf War in 1991 under the command of Commander (later Rear Admiral) Philip Wilcocks where her most notable action was the firing of a salvo shot of Sea Dart missiles to shoot down two Iraqi Silkworm missiles that were threatening the USS Missouri and allied minehunters; the first (and only) successful missile vs missile engagement at sea in combat by any Navy.
Ireland Sucks fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Aug 16, 2011
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Aug 16, 2011 01:06
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- Xandu
- Feb 19, 2006
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It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.
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Obviously, nobody gives a poo poo about the guy. It was a stupid article based on some random speculation by the father of someone who died in the attacks and it belongs in a tabloid. I was just using it as an example of why I was a little bit wary of the Telegraph article about the scud missiles, though that now has been confirmed by other media outlets.
edit: In terms of taking them out, Gaddafi's missiles are probably sigificantly older than 20 years, too.
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Aug 16, 2011 01:11
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- BlackJosh
- Sep 25, 2007
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Slave posted:
I don't believe for a second they would try to kill Megrahi. Bin Laden was still a figurehead and potential threat but killing Megrahi would just be executing a convict living out his days in frailty. It really isn't something the US wants a reputation for doing.
They have the tools for it, but it has only happened once
That was 20 years ago and SCUDs are bigger than Silkworms so the odds are reasonable in the right circumstances
Scuds are completely different type of missile than Silkworms, though. Ballistic missiles are a lot more tricky to shoot down because of their trajectory and how they work.
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Aug 16, 2011 01:15
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- Hexium
- Mar 30, 2011
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Cicero posted:
Would any US Navy ships be able to take out SCUDs in-flight?
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Aug 16, 2011 01:27
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- farraday
- Jan 10, 2007
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Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.
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Presumably it would be easier if the cruiser was at where the scud was targeted, or at least headed given the general reliability of the thing. It would be rather harder to take one out as it were just somewhere in the vicinity heading else where.
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Aug 16, 2011 02:07
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- Ghetto Prince
- Sep 11, 2010
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got to be mellow, y'all
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A scud isn't accurate enough to hit a warship, and isn't powerful enough to damage it. It's kind of a non issue.
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Aug 16, 2011 02:31
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- farraday
- Jan 10, 2007
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Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.
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Ghetto Prince posted:
A scud isn't accurate enough to hit a warship, and isn't powerful enough to damage it. It's kind of a non issue.
I said where it was targeted, not that it was targeted at the ship. Scuds aren't that accurate. A ship in harbor at Benghazi would have a much better chance of shooting down a scud aimed at Benghazi then one just sitting somewhere in the Gulf of Sidra.
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Aug 16, 2011 02:45
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- Adbot
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ADBOT LOVES YOU
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Apr 24, 2024 15:21
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- Burt Sexual
- Jan 26, 2006
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by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
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Switchblade Switcharoo
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farraday posted:
Presumably it would be easier if the cruiser was at where the scud was targeted, or at least headed given the general reliability of the thing. It would be rather harder to take one out as it were just somewhere in the vicinity heading else where.
This and also I am just amazed if this if true. I mean he's full blown out there and the world will chase him now till he dies in whatever Godforsaken country takes him in. Patriot missiles work on Scuds right?
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Aug 16, 2011 03:00
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Aug 15, 2011 13:48
