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  • Locked thread
Cable Guy
Jul 18, 2005

I don't expect any trouble, but we'll be handing these out later...




Slippery Tilde

Arkane posted:

Unverified reports that Lizzie Phelan was a prolific poster in LF. She was run out of there for being a moderate.

A laissez faire socialist as opposed to the lumpenbourgeoise she used to be?


:ughh:

Cable Guy fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Aug 22, 2011

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farraday
Jan 10, 2007

Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

Brown Moses posted:

It shouldn't be forgotten there's NATO "advisers" on the frontlines with the rebels, and it's clear this sudden advance was closely co-ordinated with NATO. The AJE journalists in Zliten said he had learnt from the rebels that NATO had help land around 1000 troops from Misrata by sea in Tripoli, so this has been planned for a long time.

We we're arguing about this yesterday, but it's still pretty insane to me if it's accurate as reported.

Xandu
Feb 19, 2006


It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.
Someone yesterday asked about Khamis al-Gaddafi's brutality.

http://www.arabist.net/blog/2011/8/22/an-anecdote-about-khamis-qadhafi.html posted:

As I write these lines, Khamis al-Qadhafi, the most militarily-connected of Muammar al-Qadhafi's sons, is said to be leading his Khamis Brigade to the center of Tripoli in what may very well turn out to be his last stand. Khamis, the seventh and youngest son of the Brother Leader, operated discreetly at the repressive core of his father's regime for years, the military counterpart to his brother Seif's diplomatic role, tasked with protecting the family.

Several months ago, I heard a chilling story about Khamis. It came from an Egyptian acquaintance of mine who has done business in Libya for many years and was well-introduced with regime figures. The Egyptian's company, involved in construction and various state-financed projects, operated in Libya the way most foreigners did. They had regime-connected figures on the payroll, whose role was to smoooth out any problems with the government and make sure hurdles could be removed. It was just the cost of doing business in Libya, where the government could often prove unwilling to honor agreements and everyone needed a little help from a part of the mafia state the Qadhafis ran.

The key sponsor the Egyptian company had was a man in his late 60s who had long been a companion of Muammar Qadhafi. "He was a nice guy, a family guy, often very funny," my acquaintance said of him, adding shortly thereafter that his sponsor had been a figure in the Revolutionary Guards' repression of student uprisings in the 1970s, when several students in Benghazi ended up being hanged from lamp-posts. The sponsor, whom I'll call Saeed, used his proximity to Qadhafi to cut through red tape, help get contracts, expedite customs issues and more. He was not a politically powerful person in the Libyan government, but his personal friendship with Qadhafi and record in the regime provided him enough clout to get business done.

One day in February, just has the February 17 movement was getting started in Benghazi, Saeed decided to go visit Qadhafi. The official pretext was that his son had recently gotten married, and he wanted to introduce him and his new wife to the Leader in person. The three went to one of Qadhafi's house, received his blessing for the marriage, and stayed to have a talk. Khamis was there too, as other members of his father's entourage.

Saeed, because he had known Qadhafi back in the days of the Free Officers, broached the topic of the Arab uprisings and the trouble brewing in Benghazi. He began to give his opinion that, the regional environment being what it is, the regime should be cautious about repressing what were still relatively minor protests in Benghazi. Instead, he argued, it should engage the protestors and be cautious about the potential for the movement to get much bigger, as it did in Tunisia and Egypt so recently.

This enraged Khamis. He stood up and shouted at Saeed, accusing him of being a traitor and a weakling, and said his father would never have to give in to the vermin in Benghazi. Saeed respectfully stated he was just giving his advice, in light of what was happening elsewhere in the Arab world — just being cautious. But this only further incensed Khamis (who may have been on some kind of drugs), and the argument kept escalating.

Finally, Khamis lost it. He pulled out his sidearm and shot Saeed, killing him instantly. Saeed's son jumped towards his father, and the son's wife wailed. Khamis turned out and emptied his gun into them, killing them both. All of this right in front of his father and his entourage.

The incident was covered up, and not reported much, but rumors about it spread in Libya. Saeed's other sons began to make plans to leave the country, and the Egyptian company, having lost its protector, hastened plans already underway to stop their activities. No doubt, within regime circles, that Khamis' murder of Saeed and the newlywed couple sent a chilling warning: show total loyalty to the regime and never doubt my father's choices, or else.

The Qadhafis chose to live in denial of reality to the very end.

I trust Issandr, but whether or not this story actually happened, it reflects how people in Libya viewed Khamis.

Arkane
Dec 19, 2006

by R. Guyovich
CNN's Matthew Chance on Twitter @mchancecnn

quote:

Mood in #Rixos much darker than before. Everyone really worried about what's going to happen to us.

All electricity down, running low on food and water. Sitting at #Rixos in the dark as bullets fly outside.

Fierce battle under way near #Gadhafi compound. Huge explosions, heavy machine-gun fire. #Rixos getting hit by stray bullets.

It's no fun being stuck in one of #Gadhafi's few remaining strongholds. #Rixos gunmen now refusing to let us leave.

Scary as hell....hopefully this has a happy ending.

farraday
Jan 10, 2007

Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

Xandu posted:

Someone yesterday asked about Khamis al-Gaddafi's brutality.


I trust Issandr, but whether or not this story actually happened, it reflects how people in Libya viewed Khamis.

I like the arabist too... but if all three were supposed to have been killed and the story covered up, where did they get the story from, other than rumor?

Brown Moses
Feb 22, 2002

farraday posted:

We we're arguing about this yesterday, but it's still pretty insane to me if it's accurate as reported.

I saw the Misrata AJE correspondent talking about it today, that's where the 1000 rebel claim came from, the BBC also has an artcle that mentions it, and it's also a great analysis of what happened in Tripoli:

quote:

Analysis: Why Gaddafi's crack troops melted away
When one Libyan opposition activist reflected on the rebel advances into the city of Zawiya last week, he mused that "Eid could be a massive celebration indeed". He was wrong - the jubilation came much earlier.

As Tripoli was surrounded from three sides - east, south and west - government forces precipitously collapsed.

What at first might have been mistaken for a tactical withdrawal into urban areas, emerged more clearly as the disintegration of the government's most feared fighting units.

The vaunted Khamis Brigade - commanded by a son of Col Gaddafi - saw its barracks raided with impunity. Rebel convoys punched deep into Tripoli, meeting virtually no resistance.

Why did battle-hardened Libyan soldiers, fed on a diet of anti-rebel propaganda and willing to fight in the face of overwhelming Nato air power, melt away so suddenly?

The answer can only be speculative at this stage, but there are a few possibilities.

First, there was an element of retreat rather than a rout. Tripoli is unevenly pacified and the euphoria of Green Square obscures the continuing fighting in several suburbs.

Western parts of the city are being progressively secured but enduring sniper fire shows that loyalists still remain willing to risk their lives for a crumbling regime.
Underground groups

Second, where soldiers did lay down their arms, the much-maligned National Transitional Council (NTC) deserves some credit.

Col Gaddafi's presidential guard surrendered in line with agreements it had earlier reached with the Benghazi leadership.

Over the past three months the NTC reportedly worked with Nato to arm underground groups in Tripoli.

As the noose tightened around Tripoli, these and other dissidents felt empowered to begin confronting the city's security forces.

Hence the weekend's patchwork urban revolts, some of them possibly cued by messages sent from mosques.

A remarkable amphibious assault on Tripoli demonstrated the extent of planning that underlay rebel operations, both in and outside of Tripoli, in recent days.

Third, Nato's relentless pounding of armour and artillery east of Zawiya greatly softened up government units, breaking down much of the resistance that would otherwise have slowed the rebel path.

As the war began to revolve around the periphery of the capital, Nato could concentrate its surveillance assets (including Predator drones) and firepower on smaller areas, exploiting intelligence transmitted directly by rebels on the ground.

On Saturday, three-quarters of all Nato targets were in the capital.

The role of Western special forces in forward air control (to guide air strikes) and rebel training is not yet understood, but seems likely to have been extensive.

This detracts nothing from the organic character of the NTC, but underscores the decisive impact of Nato's decision to serve as the rebel air force.

What about the aftermath? The possibility of ad hoc retributive justice is inevitable in post-revolutionary environments.

It would be naive to discount the possibility of serious violence, but talk of a bloodbath looks overblown. The hundreds of rebels who flooded the streets of Tripoli have so far shown no interest in mass vengeance.

Nonetheless, the NTC is under unprecedented international and Libyan scrutiny, and will be held responsible even for isolated abuses by forces nominally under its command.

Even small provocations could see the group outflanked by political competitors with their own claims to representing aggrieved groups.
Liberal constitution

Nato member states have little appetite for a peacekeeping force. They believe that a Western military footprint would inflame regional tensions.

Nor is the NTC eager for something that would further complicate efforts to establish its authenticity and independence.

The UK and France know that this revolution requires ownership, particularly as details of Nato's expansive role trickles out over the coming months. But unobtrusive and discretely supplied advice on urban policing and the disarmament of militias would be helpful.

One crucial task is the swift repair of damaged oil and gas infrastructure. The restoration of export revenues would finance reconstruction and provide the transitional government with the resources to meet high expectations.

But even this requires sensitive policy - any suggestion that an interim and unelected government was apportioning revenue unfairly could poison the process of institution building. Iraq's difficulties in this regard should furnish important lessons.

In the longer-term, there is a paradox to Libya's revolution. The same factors that gives rise to a power vacuum - the absence of national institutions and an independent military establishment - could also enable the creation of a new Libyan state, free from predatory vested interests of the sort that are buffeting Egypt's democrats.

The NTC's draft constitution is an impeccably liberal document, promising to fill that vacuum with inclusive and pluralistic structures of government.

That promise may flounder on the cross-cutting tribal, religious and regional fault-lines of Libya's war, but its best prospect of redemption lies in persuading the wary that their best chance of equitable treatment lies in the restoration of political authority.

Shashank Joshi is an Associate Fellow at the Royal United Services Institute (RUSI), a defence think tank, and a doctoral student of international relations at Harvard University.

Brown Moses
Feb 22, 2002

Arkane posted:

CNN's Matthew Chance on Twitter @mchancecnn


Scary as hell....hopefully this has a happy ending.

It does seem like that they've basically become hostages, human shields is the rebels reach the hotel. The situation seems very bad indeed, hopefully the Gaddafi gunmen will just make a run for it.

Brown Moses
Feb 22, 2002

Here's a update from Tripoli, outside the hotel:

quote:

My colleague Luke Harding has sent through his latest dispatch from Tripoli where he has been talking to the inhabitants about the rebels' seizure of most of the city:

quote:

In areas liberated by the rebels the mood was one of euphoria. Locals stood on street corners, flashing V-signs as opposition militia from towns across Libya swept past. Women cheered and whooped from upper stories; by the afternoon mosques were broadcasting polite requests not to fire in the air but to conserve ammunition instead. Nobody listened. From checkpoints hastily set up fighters continuously let off a festive pop-pop.

In the district of Gurji householders were sitting on the pavement, smiling and still evidently stunned by the dramatic events of the previous 12 hours. "We are with Cameron and Sarkozy 100%," Walid Margani, a 45-year-old school inspector, offered spontaneously,
in comments that will doubtless delight Downing Street. "They helped us in having a new life. For 42 years we've had no rights."

In a defiant audio broadcast Gaddafi's had denounced his enemies – who began their uprising against him on February 17 – as "rats". "He's the rat," Margani said. "We have not seen him on the TV for more than four months. He's been hiding like a rat underground." What should happen to him now? "We don't want to hear his name any more. We want him to be judged and to disappear," Ahmed Zidan, 45, said.

One Tripoli resident, Tariq Hussain, 32, however, admitted to feeling a bit ambiguous about the rebel's victory. "I'm afraid of them, to be honest," he said. Others, however, were jubilant. "Forty two years too much. It's game-over Gaddafi," Abdul Mohammad said, as a group of teenagers stomped on a green Gaddafi baseball hat.

"There's no person here supporting Gaddafi," Nasar al-Fahdi, a translator explained. "It was just about fear. When someone says you have to support him, and he has a whole army behind him, what can you say?" One waiter also admitted he had mixed feelings. Surveying the destruction, he added:'There's not going to be much money around here."

Zappatista
Oct 28, 2008

WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.
This whole 'rout vs tactical retreat' shouldn't even be a debate in my eyes. The Col's troops aren't soldiers fighting for their homeland, for independence or other reasons that'd give an army the will to fight to the last and carry out dangerous draw-the-enemy-in maneuvers.

They're people often being forced to fight for a tyrant whose legitimacy is crumbling rapidly. This isn't quite a situation to the degree of Afghanistan (one in which Doonesbury immortalized in a strip where an Afghan soldier, when asked how a battle went, replies "Chaotic. I had to switch sides five times today"), but it seems that other than the Khamis Brigade (which hopefully is severely underpowered) Col G's men are giving up or trying to blend in. Notice how his gunmen in the pics from yesterday had civilian clothing on. Al he's got left, it seems, are terror tactics.

Also, the rebels better find and destroy all of Ghadaffi's horcruxes soon.

farraday
Jan 10, 2007

Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.
It sounds like Mohammed Ghaddafi (Son who surrendered yesterday and who was under house arrest) escaped with the reported help of Ghaddafi loyalists.

thexerox123
Aug 17, 2007

Can someone give me some proof/a strong case that Lizzie Phelan isn't a reliable source? Someone that I know is posting videos of her on facebook, but I don't really know enough about her to make a conclusive argument.

Arkane
Dec 19, 2006

by R. Guyovich

thexerox123 posted:

Can someone give me some proof/a strong case that Lizzie Phelan isn't a reliable source? Someone that I know is posting videos of her on facebook, but I don't really know enough about her to make a conclusive argument.

Facts will likely not persuade your friend. Just ignore it and move on with your life.

farraday posted:

It sounds like Mohammed Ghaddafi (Son who surrendered yesterday and who was under house arrest) escaped with the reported help of Ghaddafi loyalists.

...which brings the immediate question to mind of why they held him under house arrest

Xandu
Feb 19, 2006


It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

thexerox123 posted:

Can someone give me some proof/a strong case that Lizzie Phelan isn't a reliable source? Someone that I know is posting videos of her on facebook, but I don't really know enough about her to make a conclusive argument.

She's continually claimed Gaddafi is winning over the past 2 days despite the fact that the rebels control almost the entire capital. There's not really much proof, except to say that her views are completely out of line with reality, regardless of your political alignment.

Try this maybe http://democratist.wordpress.com/2011/08/22/a-star-is-born/

Brown Moses
Feb 22, 2002

thexerox123 posted:

Can someone give me some proof/a strong case that Lizzie Phelan isn't a reliable source? Someone that I know is posting videos of her on facebook, but I don't really know enough about her to make a conclusive argument.

Just read her blog, it's full of bullshit, such as:
Tripoli celebrates the liberation of Misratah August 16th
Libya diary: Clearing up the latest media rubbish on Libya August 16th, which includes the following gems:

quote:

While the journalists suffering from cabin fever in Tripoli’s Rixos hotel, publish their dreams that imperialism’s lackies (the rebels/rats) have taken Zawiya, Ghuriyan and Sorman, they are ignoring a decisive moment in the crisis.

That is the liberation of the hitherto rebel-held area of Misratah. Last night the Libyan army moved into the centre of the city and now the rebels are trapped between Misratah and Tawergha. 75 per cent of the city has been secured including the port, which was a lifeline for the rebels to receive shipments of arms and other supplies, as well as being a key transport route for them.
And so on and so forth. She's a total loving shill.

Brown Moses
Feb 22, 2002

Apparently Mohammad Gaddafi has escaped custody, and there's rumours the bodies of Khamis Gaddafi and Abdallah Senussi have been found.
Also:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTEt4ezx03Y

Xandu
Feb 19, 2006


It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.
Two articles worth reading about its effect on the Arab Spring. I hate when people try to generalize the whole Middle East as the same, but it's also difficult to overestimate the impact of a dictator being overthrown on the rest of region.

http://www.black-iris.com/2011/08/22/libya-gains-its-freedom-and-the-arab-spring-enters-20/

quote:


Staying up last night to watch the events unfold on the streets of Tripoli, I cannot help but feel the sense of confidence that swept across the region last night; radiating from TV, computer and mobile screens. I could not help but hear the deafening silence of those who believed the Arab spring had already met its doom, and those who had abandoned their hope in the capabilities of average citizens. The silence of the same people who are content with the grandeurs of their status quo. The same people that have consistently demonstrated their inability to understand the value of freedom, and especially what it’s worth to people who don’t have it, and people who cannot afford it. It is thrilling to see their beliefs shaken to the core; to see them watch a people risk the certainty of the status quo for the uncertainty of something greater, and achieve it.

So to the Arab leaders that remain in power I cannot help but point out the obvious. Not all evolution mandates revolution, but when you refuse to evolve, when you nurture an environment where your people have less and less to lose, where they are willing to risk their status quo, their fear of the unknown, and their very lives, all for an intangible aspiration - then you force a revolution. You create a situation where people are willing to gamble everything, in hopes of achieving anything; anything but this. Because anything is better than this. And all the guns, tanks, money and promises won’t be able to convince those people otherwise.

The time for diplomacy has ended. The era of compromises, broken promises and short-comings is drawing to a close. The cost of hubris has been revealed. And if history is written by the victors, then the pen and the keyboard is now in the hands of average citizens, where the revolution is crowd sourced. Where the masses meet mass media. If Tunisia broke a taboo, and Egypt created momentum, then Libya has lowered the barriers of entry and nudged the Arab Spring towards experiencing the political equivalent of economies of scale.

So thank you Tunisia for lighting a flame. Thank you Egypt for adding the fuel. And thank you Libya for keeping it alive.

http://lynch.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/08/22/libya_inspires_the_arabs

quote:

Libya lost its central place in the Arab public sphere as the war dragged on. Even if al-Jazeera continued to cover the war heavily, the agenda fragmented and darkened. Arab attention was consumed by new setbacks and stalemates, from the brutal repression in Bahrain to the incomprehensible stalemate in Yemen, to the escalating brutality in Syria. But over the last two days, Arab attention refocused on Libya. Arabs from Yemen, to Syria, to Morocco experienced Qaddafi's fall as part of their own story. And they are clearly inspired, galvanized and energized.

Arab activists across the region will now likely try to jump-start protest movements which had lost momentum. Some will succeed, others won't. Arab leaders such as Assad and Saleh have had to watch the final moments of a counterpart who gambled on violence, and might (though regrettably probably won't) rethink whether they want to continue to that endgame. There are obvious limits to such demonstration and diffusion effects. Each country has its own political structures, its own balance of power, its own regional and international context. The effects of external stimuli, whether inspiration from a successful revolution or discouragement from failed uprisings or signals from outside actors such as the United States, are always filtered through those local situations. But they do matter.

I just quoted some excerpts, do read the whole posts.


farraday posted:

I like the arabist too... but if all three were supposed to have been killed and the story covered up, where did they get the story from, other than rumor?

Yeah fair point, maybe his sons found out or something, but it was too good not to share.

Xandu fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Aug 22, 2011

Scratch Monkey
Oct 25, 2010

👰Proč bychom se netěšili🥰když nám Pán Bůh🙌🏻zdraví dá💪?

Lizzie Phelan posted:

a world where people are collectively in control of their own destinies.

This makes no sense. If everyone else has a say in an individual's destiny the individual isn't in control of their own destiny, are they? If she's going to pine for a Communist utopia she really has to drop the pretense of caring about the individual.

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004

Brown Moses posted:

Just read her blog, it's full of bullshit, such as:
Tripoli celebrates the liberation of Misratah August 16th
Libya diary: Clearing up the latest media rubbish on Libya August 16th, which includes the following gems:

And so on and so forth. She's a total loving shill.
She is just writing the Woman in the High Castle. Wait for the part where Ghaddafi's sons colonize Mars.

Nenonen
Oct 22, 2009

Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

thexerox123 posted:

Can someone give me some proof/a strong case that Lizzie Phelan isn't a reliable source? Someone that I know is posting videos of her on facebook, but I don't really know enough about her to make a conclusive argument.

You might want to make a point about how she's only been repeating Libyan government propaganda, with zero ounce of criticality or just about anything that sane people call as journalism. She may call herself independent, but she's not impartial. Since she's only a mouthpiece, one should focus on the question of was the Libyan government a more credible source than hundreds of professional and independent reporters working all around Libya and abroad.

Brown Moses
Feb 22, 2002

Also, here voice over work sounds like Peter Griffin doing his moon person voice from Handy Quacks.

Golbez
Oct 9, 2002

1 2 3!
If you want to take a shot at me get in line, line
1 2 3!
Baby, I've had all my shots and I'm fine

thexerox123 posted:

Can someone give me some proof/a strong case that Lizzie Phelan isn't a reliable source?

Her own words.

Uglycat
Dec 4, 2000
MORE INDISPUTABLE PROOF I AM BAD AT POSTING
---------------->

Arkane posted:

Facts will likely not persuade your friend. Just ignore it and move on with your life.

This is the opposite of good advice.

Your friend is not just a cult member - she's a vector for infection. Inoculate. I second the request for a comprehensive debunking of the spinster.

Ireland Sucks
May 16, 2004

Apparently the 'how dangerous is firing bullets in the air?' question is getting asked so much that the BBC have written an article on it

Golbez
Oct 9, 2002

1 2 3!
If you want to take a shot at me get in line, line
1 2 3!
Baby, I've had all my shots and I'm fine
I don't remember seeing it mentioned here, but according to an update to the the Wikipedia map of control made at 11:27am Eastern, Mitiga Airport has been captured by the rebels. This would leave only the district around the Bab al-Aziziya and Rixos Hotel, and the military port area, conclusively loyalist-held.

speng31b
May 8, 2010

Slave posted:

Apparently the 'how dangerous is firing bullets in the air?' question is getting asked so much that the BBC have written an article on it

Mythbusters episode incoming.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!

Uglycat posted:

This is the opposite of good advice.

Your friend is not just a cult member - she's a vector for infection. Inoculate. I second the request for a comprehensive debunking of the spinster.

Isn't Lizzie self-debunking though? In a couple of days, it will be rather clear that Gadaffi's forces have not, in fact, laid a brilliant trap and are not, in fact about to win.

Nenonen
Oct 22, 2009

Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Fangz posted:

Isn't Lizzie self-debunking though? In a couple of days, it will be rather clear that Gadaffi's forces have not, in fact, laid a brilliant trap and are not, in fact about to win.

This is only because of the fiendish NATO's secret baby killing operations. The revolution was forced down the throats of the people by NATO and foreign Al Qaeda mercenaries.

Brown Moses
Feb 22, 2002

Here's another article from Tripoli about the reaction of the local people.

thexerox123
Aug 17, 2007

Nenonen posted:

You might want to make a point about how she's only been repeating Libyan government propaganda, with zero ounce of criticality or just about anything that sane people call as journalism. She may call herself independent, but she's not impartial. Since she's only a mouthpiece, one should focus on the question of was the Libyan government a more credible source than hundreds of professional and independent reporters working all around Libya and abroad.

This was a great way to sum it up... I paraphrased this (and added that Russia Today isn't exactly known for being impartial, either), and she actually seemed to concede the point, a little.

speng31b
May 8, 2010

Nenonen posted:

This is only because of the fiendish NATO's secret baby killing operations. The revolution was forced down the throats of the people by NATO and foreign Al Qaeda mercenaries.

Don't forget British and French imperialism.

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004

octoroon posted:

Don't forget British and French imperialism.
And drugs from al qaeda.

Sir John Falstaff
Apr 13, 2010

Fangz posted:

Isn't Lizzie self-debunking though? In a couple of days, it will be rather clear that Gadaffi's forces have not, in fact, laid a brilliant trap and are not, in fact about to win.

Lizzie is a lot like 9/11 conpiracy theorists. The only way she could be right is if there was a massive conspiracy among the rebels, NATO, and western journalists to hide the facts, and she was the only one willing and capable of exposing it.

Anyway, the NY Times has a piece on all the speculation about where Muammar may be:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/23/world/africa/23mystery.html?_r=2&src=tp

Zeroisanumber
Oct 23, 2010

Nap Ghost

thexerox123 posted:

This was a great way to sum it up... I paraphrased this (and added that Russia Today isn't exactly known for being impartial, either), and she actually seemed to concede the point, a little.

Nah, man. You really have to go full-Goon on this. Bash her over the head repeatedly with how ridiculous her sources are until you get a full retraction.

Taerkar
Dec 7, 2002

kind of into it, really

octoroon posted:

Mythbusters episode incoming.

They already did it.

Zappatista
Oct 28, 2008

WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

Toplowtech posted:

And drugs from al qaeda.

Boatloads of laced Nescafe! :catdrugs::jihad:

quote:

For the first time ever, they deemed this one busted, plausible, and confirmed. All of their tests, from the pig's head to the 9mm firing to the balloon, showed that a bullet fired perfectly straight up into the air is not lethal. However, it is also very difficult to shoot perfectly straight up into the air and, with the cases cited by Dr. Mohler, they have confirmed that people have died from bullets falling from the sky.

It's all about ballistics. The less steep the ballistic arc the more velocity the bullet can retain.

Zappatista fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Aug 22, 2011

speng31b
May 8, 2010

Taerkar posted:

They already did it.

Well, drat, so they did.

Firing Bullets in the Air posted:

For the first time ever, they deemed this one busted, plausible, and confirmed. All of their tests, from the pig's head to the 9mm firing to the balloon, showed that a bullet fired perfectly straight up into the air is not lethal. However, it is also very difficult to shoot perfectly straight up into the air and, with the cases cited by Dr. Mohler, they have confirmed that people have died from bullets falling from the sky.

Young Freud
Nov 26, 2006

Zappatista posted:

Boatloads of laced Nescafe! :catdrugs::jihad:


It's all about ballistics. The less steep the ballistic arc the more velocity the bullet can retain.

45 degrees is probably the worst angle to fire a gun in celebration, because it has the farthest range at that angle and adds gravity to its velocity.

Also, apparently if you fire a gun at 60 and then at 30 degrees, the bullets have a good chance to hit at the same time. The cancelled Crusader self-propelled artillery gun was built around this concept.

Namarrgon
Dec 23, 2008

Congratulations on not getting fit in 2011!
How the hell is a bullet fired straight up in the air not lethal? I'm pretty sure that if a terminal velocity bullet drops straight down on the top of your head it'll go right through your weak little skull.

Also 'perfectly straight in the air' is a nonsense statement anyway.

e. Even humans (think skydivers) have a pretty drat high terminal velocity, bullets' will be much higher and they are more made to pierce things.

Namarrgon fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Aug 22, 2011

farraday
Jan 10, 2007

Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.
Inless happy news.

quote:

FromJoanne Joanne
#BREAKING #BBC report 8 journalists feared Dead following a Huge explosion of unknown origins at #Rixos hotel ALjezeera #Libya
3 minutes ago

drat it, lets hope everyone is safe.

Ediy// Possibly just Twitter thrash... if it is insert a joke about Lizzie Phelan being a suicide bomber.

Edit// Definitely False, back to terminal bullet velocity.

farraday fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Aug 22, 2011

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Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!
Oh gently caress. Is that legit?

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