|
Pucklynn posted:I really feel like the whole "Jon 'died' so now he doesn't have to be a Brother" theory is kind of ridiculous. Think of it from the perspective of the other brothers. Jon may have died and come back but unless there's a span of at least a few months in between the two events, they're still going to think of him as Jon Snow of the Night's Watch and expect him to be there. It's not like he's playing a computer game where the programming says certain criteria are met, therefore he gets the "Freed From His Vow" achievement. Those theories, however, also tend to assume that The poo poo Hits The Fan® and the Wall falls, the Night's Watch gets exterminated by the Others, etc... so that when Jon pulls a Jesus and proclaims "mine is the Song of Ice and Fire", Westeros is running for dear life and willing to believe pretty much anything. Personally I would still prefer if R+L=J remained a secret all the way to the end of the saga, though.
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2011 15:51
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 14:46 |
|
|
Putin It In Mah rear end posted:Also yeah this "He is out of his vows" poo poo is nonsense. Now maybe Aliser Thorne or whoever takes charge and it wouldn't be safe for him to come back or whatever, but that's kind of another story altogether. Perhaps it is nonsense from a Westeros POV, but Jon could certainly use that as an arguement to convince himself not to go back. It seems like that is where GRRM is taking his character with the abrupt 180 degree turn he takes in his last POV chapter. Why else would he spend a book and a half declining Stannis' offer to just all of a sudden decide to betray his vows just because he got a letter.
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2011 15:53
|
|
|
NihilCredo posted:Those theories, however, also tend to assume that The poo poo Hits The Fan® and the Wall falls, the Night's Watch gets exterminated by the Others, etc... so that when Jon pulls a Jesus and proclaims "mine is the Song of Ice and Fire", Westeros is running for dear life and willing to believe pretty much anything. If the Wall falls, there's no Night's Watch anyways, so his vows don't matter at that point. Saying that he's been freed from his vows by death automatically assumes that those vows are still valid for everyone else who has not died. I'm hoping poo poo Really Does Hit the Fan and it'll be awesome, but this particular theory is a silly get out of jail free card.
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2011 15:54
|
|
|
Johnny Nomad posted:Perhaps it is nonsense from a Westeros POV, but Jon could certainly use that as an arguement to convince himself not to go back. It seems like that is where GRRM is taking his character with the abrupt 180 degree turn he takes in his last POV chapter. Why else would he spend a book and a half declining Stannis' offer to just all of a sudden decide to betray his vows just because he got a letter. I didn't read it as quite the same thing. Forsaking the Watch entirely to go be Lord of Winterfell doesn't have the same connotations to me as taking a few wildling bros to go slap down a potential threat to the Wall from the south and rescue his sister, then returning to continue being Lord Commander. Bending the rules about taking part in the affairs of the realm, perhaps, but surely so is hosting one of the contenders to the throne?
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2011 16:03
|
|
|
Mogadishu posted:I didn't read it as quite the same thing. Forsaking the Watch entirely to go be Lord of Winterfell doesn't have the same connotations to me as taking a few wildling bros to go slap down a potential threat to the Wall from the south and rescue his sister, then returning to continue being Lord Commander. Bending the rules about taking part in the affairs of the realm, perhaps, but surely so is hosting one of the contenders to the throne? Well Jon makes it pretty clear that he is only hosting Stannis because he really has no choice. Stannis saved their rear end against the wildlings, and would have no problem just killing him (and all of them if necessary) in order to secure his position. On the other hand, Jon's actions in the last chapter seemed entirely out of character to me given the way his character has developed. Had this been a decision he made in the first book, it would have made sense. But at the end of the fifth? It was pretty jarring.
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2011 16:08
|
|
|
Putin It In Mah rear end posted:Also any legitimizin' Robb did would be...illegitimate, given as A) He is dead and B) Not recognized by the current King or his court Maybe, but he was still the Stark of Winterfell even if you ignore his kingship, so any regime which recognises the Stark dynasty recognises Robb's declaration as coming from the office of the Lord of Winterfell and Lord of the Starks at the time. And if they don't recognise the Starks as having power it doesn't matter if Jon's legitimate or not. That is very twisted logic I just came out with.
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2011 16:17
|
|
|
MikeJF posted:Maybe, but he was still the Stark of Winterfell even if you ignore his kingship, so any regime which recognises the Stark dynasty recognises Robb's declaration as coming from the office of the Lord of Winterfell and Lord of the Starks at the time. And if they don't recognise the Starks as having power it doesn't matter if Jon's legitimate or not. Now that Cersei is effectively running things and they don't have any Starks of their own (and wouldn't want Tyrion to get the Winterfell claim in any case), there's no reason for them to acknowledge Stark legitimacy. Basically ain't poo poo gonna happen until Dany lands in King's Landing and declares all the good characters awesome and all the bad characters dead.
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2011 16:36
|
|
|
Quantify! posted:Tywin Lannister wasn't an idiot and recognized the Stark claim to Winterfell - his plan was to kill Robb and make Sansa the most eligible heir. Oh, yeah, I'm certainly not assuming Lannister recognition there. That dynasty will have to go.
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2011 16:42
|
|
|
MikeJF posted:Whilst it's been mentioned that properly talking back to the past is impossible, Jon is legitimate. Robb legitimised him. Right now it's his Night's Watch vow that's keeping him from that. While we infer that Robb did legitimmize Jon and proclaim him the heir to the North, whatever happened to that letter? Did it meet up with Ned's second letter from the first book and head south to Ashaai or something?
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2011 16:42
|
|
|
Quantify! posted:That's the greatest scene, because it shows that Jon has become a true Stark and Ned did make a difference for him. Yes, probably my favorite scene in the series so far.
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2011 16:44
|
|
|
Putin It In Mah rear end posted:Also any legitimizin' Robb did would be...illegitimate, given as A) He is dead and B) Not recognized by the current King or his court Which King? Stannis would probably legitimize Jon in his own right. Tommen's court would obviously be at odds but as we've seen in Westeros at the moment: might makes right. I would imagine most of the north save the Boltons and maybe some lesser houses would rally behind Jon Stark nee Snow at least against the tyranny of the Boltons at which point Tommen's court would have no real choice but to acknowledge Jon's claim in hopes of pacifying the north (or possibly pitting them against Stannis) so that King's Landing can focus on Aegon and the Golden Company. For what it's worth though, I don't buy into the theory that Jon's now "released" from the watch. Quantify! posted:Tywin Lannister wasn't an idiot and recognized the Stark claim to Winterfell - his plan was to kill Robb and make Sansa the most eligible heir. You think anyone is running things in King's Landing? Cersei has been basically ostracized, Kevin and Pycelle are now dead, Varys and Littlefinger are out of the picture, and the small council is filled with men from the reach. They will of course be much more likely to care about protecting the south from Aegon than the north from Stark (after all, their lands and families are in the south to be lost). They'll make a deal with anyone who wins up north (not counting Stannis) assuming that the Starks would take a deal. But again I think that whole theory is bullshit. Snow will remain Lord Commander of the Watch, the Wildlings and Stannis will liberate Winterfell, Manderly will install Lord Rickon of Winterfell, and Shaggydog will eat Manderly. Bran won't be able to walk, but as the Children told him, he will learn to fly - on one of Dany's dragons. Dany will poo poo all over Drogon who will get pissed and eat her. Aegon will marry Arya and Hodor will become Hand of the King. You no longer have to read the rest of the books. You're welcome. JerkyBunion fucked around with this message at 16:58 on Aug 24, 2011 |
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2011 16:44
|
|
|
JerkyBunion posted:Dany will poo poo all over Drogon who will get pissed and eat hurt.
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2011 16:56
|
|
|
Johnny Nomad posted:Well Jon makes it pretty clear that he is only hosting Stannis because he really has no choice. Stannis saved their rear end against the wildlings, and would have no problem just killing him (and all of them if necessary) in order to secure his position. Right, so he does what he believes is in the Watch's best interests rather than sticking to the letter of the law. Taking out Ramsay as a potential threat from what should be the safe side of the Wall, without abdicating the office of Lord Commander, seems pretty in line with this. I don't think it contradicts his refusals of Stannis' offer at all, or that Jon considered his actions to be a violation of the spirit of his vows or honour.
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2011 16:57
|
|
|
Just finished it last night. Meh. My only two comments on things that I haven't seen covered in this thread are: - Prologue: Could not figure out for the life of me what it's purpose was until Jon got stabbed. I guess it exists mainly to lay down some of the ground rules for warging when a person dies. - Epilogue: I really wish GRRM had left the identity of the killer a mystery. I have no idea what revealing Varys as the killer in the moment adds to the story, but I know that if left a mystery it would have added more suspense going into book 6.
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2011 18:59
|
|
|
I found it interesting how many of the things Varamyr's foster father considered to be abominations Bran had done already. Warging into Hodor, obviously, and didn't he eat human flesh as Summer at some point? Knowing Martin, I assume he'll get to the wolf sex eventually. Is that going to come back on him if the Children or Bloodraven find out about it? He's been keeping his Hodor trick on the down low so far.
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2011 19:33
|
|
|
^^^^^^ He ate human flesh as Bran, for that matter.WhiteShad0w posted:- Epilogue: I really wish GRRM had left the identity of the killer a mystery. I have no idea what revealing Varys as the killer in the moment adds to the story, but I know that if left a mystery it would have added more suspense going into book 6.
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2011 19:34
|
|
|
WhiteShad0w posted:Just finished it last night. Meh. My only two comments on things that I haven't seen covered in this thread are: quote:- Epilogue: I really wish GRRM had left the identity of the killer a mystery. I have no idea what revealing Varys as the killer in the moment adds to the story, but I know that if left a mystery it would have added more suspense going into book 6. I dunno. It seems to me that if the identity had been left a mystery, it would have just resulted in a lot of unhappy readers going, "Wtf? This is how you end the book? Kevan is killed by a mystery person for no particularly discernible reason?" Showing that it's Varys, on the other hand, begins to really shed light on his motivations and what he's been up to in the background. He's been out of the picture as an active character since the end of SoS, and now it's suddenly revealed that not only has he been in King's Landing the whole time (or at least part of it, I guess) but he's still doing his thing in the background.
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2011 19:36
|
|
|
Mogadishu posted:I found it interesting how many of the things Varamyr's foster father considered to be abominations Bran had done already. Warging into Hodor, obviously, and didn't he eat human flesh as Summer at some point? Knowing Martin, I assume he'll get to the wolf sex eventually. Is that going to come back on him if the Children or Bloodraven find out about it? He's been keeping his Hodor trick on the down low so far. I think it was said earlier in the thread that the Stark kids have broken all of those rules.. Arya's warged into cats and I think also eaten human flesh. Perhaps he'll learn rules from the Children of Bloodraven, but as for Hodor, I think Bran can tell it's wrong with how frightened Hodor is when it happens.
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2011 19:37
|
|
|
MikeJF posted:Oh, yeah, I'm certainly not assuming Lannister recognition there. That dynasty will have to go. Well, the Lannisters are basically hosed in the medium term anyway, now that Kevan is dead and Cersei is apparently going to be boss lady again. We saw what a bang-up job she did before...
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2011 19:42
|
|
|
geeves posted:I think it was said earlier in the thread that the Stark kids have broken all of those rules.. Arya's warged into cats and I think also eaten human flesh.
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2011 20:09
|
|
|
If anyone is looking for something to read in the meantime, I highly recommend "I, Claudius". It's kind of like a whole book written in first person by Tyrion.
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2011 20:47
|
|
|
Ross posted:If anyone is looking for something to read in the meantime, I highly recommend "I, Claudius". It's kind of like a whole book written in first person by Tyrion. Does Claudius find out where whores go?
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2011 20:50
|
|
|
Thoguh posted:Does Claudius find out where whores go? I seriously don't know why Tyrion was so obsessed with this. Like "wherever whores go" is some kind of riddle instead of his dad just being an rear end in a top hat noble brushing lowborn filth off his shoulders.
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2011 21:05
|
|
|
Desumaytah posted:I seriously don't know why Tyrion was so obsessed with this. Like "wherever whores go" is some kind of riddle instead of his dad just being an rear end in a top hat noble brushing lowborn filth off his shoulders. It was the last thing Tywin said to Tyrion (regards to Tysha after it was revealed that she wasn't a whore Jamie hired and she had in fact loved him) right before he shot him with his crossbow. I think in some weird PTSD-way that would be pretty prevalent in Tyrions thoughts.
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2011 21:12
|
|
|
geeves posted:It was the last thing Tywin said to Tyrion (I think in regards to Tysha after it was revealed that she wasn't a whore Jamie hired) right before he shot him with his crossbow. I think in some weird PTSD-way that would be pretty prevalent in Tyrions thoughts. Yeah, especially since he keeps "hearing" the crossbow thrum in his head.
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2011 21:12
|
|
|
Desumaytah posted:I seriously don't know why Tyrion was so obsessed with this. Like "wherever whores go" is some kind of riddle instead of his dad just being an rear end in a top hat noble brushing lowborn filth off his shoulders. I thought he was pretty clearly going insane, that's why he's fixated on the whole scene.
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2011 21:15
|
|
|
Mahlertov Cocktail posted:Yeah, especially since he keeps "hearing" the crossbow thrum in his head. The scream of a rusted iron hinge...
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2011 21:20
|
|
|
NinjaDebugger posted:I thought he was pretty clearly going insane, that's why he's fixated on the whole scene.
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2011 21:22
|
|
|
Weren't Tywin's last words like "you're no son of mine" or something?
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2011 21:36
|
|
|
Toplowtech posted:Joffrey's death, a humiliating public trial, an extremely tense trial by combat, Jayme telling him the true about his wedding, Shae's murder, his father's murder and lot of alcohol. In what a few days? A week or two?
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2011 22:11
|
|
|
Pucklynn posted:If the Wall falls, there's no Night's Watch anyways, so his vows don't matter at that point. Saying that he's been freed from his vows by death automatically assumes that those vows are still valid for everyone else who has not died. I'm hoping poo poo Really Does Hit the Fan and it'll be awesome, but this particular theory is a silly get out of jail free card. It also kind of depends whether a new Lord Commander is appointed before Jon gets "revived" Say they appoint a new commander, and he hates Jon and tries to get rid of him. Then Jon has a legitimate "get out of vows free" card. If he's revived 20 minutes after being stabbed, it's a different story.
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2011 22:27
|
|
|
Habibi posted:The scream of a rusted iron hinge... And so began GRRM's attempt at writing a Stoneheart sex scene.
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2011 22:51
|
|
|
Finally got my copy. My attempt to buy it used failed, and I broke down. Did neeps just start growing across the planet or something? loving neeps yo. I kinda regret getting spoiled on the tyrion stuff, because it makes it even harder to give a gently caress about his chapters. knowing quentin gets burned makes his chapters that much better though. I don't give a gently caress about anything that happens in mereen. It would be a real twist if all of westeros goes to poo poo, and everyone abandon it, with mereen and such becoming the new center of the story. It is interesting that everyone thought the Mereenese knot was about getting Dany the gently caress out of there, when the opposite was true. (well, I'm still the knot he is referring to involves dragon loving, but w/e). I wish lamprey pies weren't so vile because they get mentioned quite a bit. Grrm finds an expression and hamemrs it.. (words are wind the obvious one, but also the "scale from the dragon that burned you" expression seemed to stick out). Not finished yet, but hoping someone kills Daario quick. dude is trouble waiting to happen. I love people asking when the next book will be out. overall liking the book, but feels like we are only halfway through the series. I'm torn between wanting to to be 10 books long, and hoping he will actually finish the series.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2011 01:02
|
|
|
Junkenstein posted:We have no idea what Robb wrote in that letter. Where ever that letter is, I imagine it's hanging out with Ned's letter to Jon. Never to be read. Just sitting somwhere in the desk of a forgotten character covered in lamprey pie stains.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2011 01:47
|
|
|
Quantify! posted:I think people forget how much happened to Tyrion because it was like 10 years since this stuff happened for us. Yeah, when we join Tyrion in Dance, he's literally just killed his own father on the bog and found out about Tysha, so it makes sense that that's all he can think about. Unfortunately, we've had eleven loving years to discuss Tyrion's state of mind, so we couldn't give a loving toss where the whores go.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2011 02:36
|
|
|
I just finished. I really hope Jon is dead for good (or at least is only alive in Ghost, and doesn't have that many chapters). I don't think this WILL happen, but I wish it would. This entire book, listening to him bitch about his vows, and how helpless he felt, and how inadequate... no wonder your men stabbed you, you goddamn rear end. I actually sort of liked Tyrion's story. Not much happened, but watching all of his trials and tribulations was pretty rewarding. Is it totally out of line to think he's not actually a Lannister, but instead a bastard of some sort? I also think that this book made it pretty clear that Jon is legitimate, since he has Warg powers like the other Starks (and Robb didn't). Is there a page somewhere that has likely theories that are being floated around? I'll need something to keep myself entertained over the next 4 years.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2011 03:25
|
|
|
UR1S posted:I also think that this book made it pretty clear that Jon is legitimate, since he has Warg powers like the other Starks (and Robb didn't). His father was a Targaryen. His is the song of ice and fire.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2011 03:28
|
|
|
Quantify! posted:His mother was a Stark. Yeah, I was looking at the theories page for him on the wiki after I posted that, and it does seem convincing. God, how I loving hate him though...
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2011 03:36
|
|
|
UR1S posted:I also think that this book made it pretty clear that Jon is legitimate, since he has Warg powers like the other Starks (and Robb didn't). Sansa doesn't warg, and we also never had a Robb POV to know if he warged into Grey Wind.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2011 03:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 14:46 |
|
|
I know its done quite often in books , but the whole "oh you just missed eachother!" thing gets on my nerves. I want to be like JUST loving YELL AT HER YOU STUPID gently caress. I'm sure there are reasons he can't or w/e.. I just want to yell at the GRRM I guess. Can someone summarize who lady lenore / arthur dayne and those fuckers are? I know they are referred to a few times in the books, but I really can't place them in the war.. what they did, why we care, etc. quote:Is it totally out of line to think he's not actually a Lannister, but instead a bastard of some sort? kcroy fucked around with this message at 03:45 on Aug 25, 2011 |
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2011 03:42
|
|