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12 Angry Men and the Bottle Rocket short are good places to start. Bottle Rocket is particularly interesting because it tells a pretty good story with fairly detailed characters in an average amount of time and doesn't waste any of it, even with the inclusion of silly, frivolous-sounding dialogue. What is Bottle Rocket about? In the most basic terms it's about two guys who rob a bookstore. That's a plot but it's not really a story. The story comes in with the details. Take what happens in the very first minute: 1: The title, in stark black-and-white, pops up over a blaring crime jazz score. 2: The seriousness and danger is immediately undercut by dialogue: "But where's Huggy Bear?" 3: The main characters climb a fence and cross a lawn while picking apart the details of Starsky and Hutch, emphasizing what a cool cat Starsky is ("This is he"). 4: They throw their bags into some bushes and enter the house, sneaking around, obviously burglarizing it, accompanied by sassy jazz. Four things that, in sixty seconds, set up the entire film. We have the juxtaposition between the title and the characters, which indicates the style of humor. We have the Starsky and Hutch dialogue, which introduces the characters, who are young and immature and don't really know the world and who, as a result, are of great importance to themselves. Then they break into the house and the audience is immediately involved and stay involved because the film's script is a rondelet of questions and answers, which every good film script should be. There isn't much question-answer in your script because the characters are answering their own and each others' questions via mechanical dialogue. DREW: I thought you said there were no smoke detectors in here! ADAM: There aren’t - Drew, this bathroom has been out of commission for half a year, my Dad comes here to smoke every week for that very reason. Construction probably set it off. One character says "why?", the other says "because", and half the audience goes to the lobby for popcorn. You also mention 12 Angry Men and that you wanted to challenge yourself by keeping the film contained to one room, which you don't do. It might be interesting to do so but keep in mind that your characters know each other really well so finding ways to communicate their backstory without flashbacks is hard. I haven't seen 12 Angry Men in ages but none of the characters knew each other, which made it easier for the writer to have them tell each other about themselves. It's generally a bad idea to have a character say "Remember that time when..." because it looks and sounds really, really stupid on-screen, even if it's hilarious in real life to recall a shared incident. So if you are going to have a truly limited location you'll have to find ways to communicate past events. Your characters are getting high, and that could be a source of comedy. Perhaps one zones out and won't stop recalling an event, or the other becomes paranoid and lists, rapid-fire, the events that have led him to the precipice in his life. You're still stuck with really low stakes, though. I don't care if two pot-smoking high school students are in danger of not going to Yale or not being BFFs anymore. Make me care. I care about the characters in Bottle Rocket because they are interestingly flawed. It's amusing to watch them build themselves up to the ~*~heist of the century~*~ because the film is really about how small-town and immature they are (note that it is about the characters). Why would it be interesting to watch your film? What other things are going on? Also, as Sporadic said, you have something interesting in Mr. Mitchell. The moment with the desk drawer is reminiscent of Kiss Me Deadly. What's in the drawer? I'm curious. Everyone hates high school administrators so it might be amusing to take that track.
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Aug 29, 2011 19:11
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TheMilkyNutBall posted:About your suggestion of making it what's wrong with Mrs. Mitchell - It is interesting but I think I want to keep it more along the lines of the relationship between the two characters. I also don't see how that would be relevant to the characters when they are stuck in a fire alarm (in other words, they'd be more concerned about getting the hell out than worrying over their guidance counselor). I get the idea but, like Magic Hate Ball said, there is no tension. You haven't conveyed that their friendship is on the line. The fear of getting caught is all in the characters' head. Nothing happens to make the audience think that it is possible when the Dad character is introduced. The consequence of getting caught isn't clear. The only reason I suggested maybe shifting the story into finding out what is wrong with Mr. Mitchell (is it Mr or Mrs? I thought it was a guy in the screenplay) was to give it that tension. That end game goal. You can still explore the relationship between the two characters. Maybe have bad kid go too far, steal the school keys from his dad and try to pressure the good kid into breaking into the school at night to see what is in the desk drawer after hearing the story from his dad. But it is your thing. Do what you want with it. Just try to flesh out your thoughts so the whole thing doesn't come off like a reject Degrassi script. Magic Hate Ball posted:Also, as Sporadic said, you have something interesting in Mr. Mitchell. The moment with the desk drawer is reminiscent of Kiss Me Deadly. What's in the drawer? I'm curious. Everyone hates high school administrators so it might be amusing to take that track. I was thinking Pulp Fiction and the briefcase myself when I read that.
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Aug 29, 2011 20:38
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Magic Hate Ball posted:Bottle Rocket is particularly interesting because it tells a pretty good story with fairly detailed characters in an average amount of time and doesn't waste any of it, even with the inclusion of silly, frivolous-sounding dialogue. What is Bottle Rocket about? In the most basic terms it's about two guys who rob a bookstore. That's a plot but it's not really a story. The story comes in with the details. Take what happens in the very first minute: I really like this analysis of Bottle Rocket - I never really thought about it like that. It's funny, I've watched it over and over and just sort of liked it without really knowing (or trying to understand why) but that totally makes sense. They are just walking contradictions, thinking they are big heister's in a blase, rural place. It's interesting, because another film I LOVE because of the character (which is most films, but this one especially) is Buffalo 66. Haven't seen the film in awhile but Vincent Gallo also has this sort of contradiction - trying so hard to be a sort of brutal ex-con kidnapping that chick but, in reality, is hopelessly harmless. I guess I never understood 'flawed' character in the sense of contradiction - sort of a mini-Epiphany I guess. And yes, yes I know flashbacks shouldn't be allowed if I go that route - but you're right if I want to make a story about the relationship between characters than I'm going to need more than just the bathroom scene. As for the guidance counselor's big secret - Sporadic was spot on with the Pulp Fiction briefcase thing. I just thought it was funny that this creepy, weird guidance counselor having this DEEP, dark, secret that we just have to use our imagination to fill in. Sporadic posted:But it is your thing. Do what you want with it. Just try to flesh out your thoughts so the whole thing doesn't come off like a reject Degrassi script. I won't. God, that makes me cringe. Like I've said this has been immensely helpful.
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Aug 29, 2011 23:15
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I have a question I was hoping some of you guys could help me with. I've been working on a script outline for the past month and I've hit a complete wall regarding a key point: I have a major plot point happen right in the middle of the screenplay. I've got a great scene for Plot Point 1 and a pretty good revelation for Plot Point 2, but this one scene/instance fits perfectly smack-dab in the middle of the screenplay. So my question is... is that okay? I know that these pacing rules aren't set in stone, but I can't see this scene/instance happening anywhere else. So, opinions, advice? TheMilkyNutBall posted:I just finished writing a short (13 pages) about two high school kids who find themselves in a horrible situation during a school fire alarm. I definitely need some objective, and honest critique's so if any goons want to read it let me know.
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Aug 30, 2011 08:48
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I think I've got enough things to work out already - maybe when I've revised it? Appreciate the offer, though.
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Aug 30, 2011 15:11
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I would love for one or two of you to give my new piece a read. It is a long-short (about 40 pages) and I have trouble writing short films. There is either something missing or something that needs to be taken away. I think I have dug in so deep that I can't really see the light anymore, I need a fresh pair of eyes to look around.
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Aug 30, 2011 18:20
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I'll read it.
Magic Hate Ball fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Aug 30, 2011 |
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Aug 30, 2011 18:36
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Well, you've got a few problems. One is that you've got absolutely zero human interest. Your characters babble mindlessly and with no subtlety (what they think, they say), and are almost entirely uninteresting. Part of this has to do with a lack of contractions but mostly because they only talk about really trivial things, except for the bizarre, long-as-hell monologue about the ten animals that's basically unreadable and probably unlistenable. Reading this was like reading a car manual. Take the first scene, two minutes of a job interview. What is said? Nothing! You have, at the heart of the script, an interesting idea, but it's presented in the weirdest, dryest way. It's almost surreal how bland it is. It reads like a DMV pamphlet. And it goes on and on. In the first yuppie party scene, for example, is it necessary to have two pages of dialogue about the party-goers' cars and lives and pregnancies? Or the cook-off that goes on for four pages? It's page after page of nothing. What are you going for? What message are you trying to convey? And I will say again, at the heart of this you've got an interesting story (materialistic yuppies find creative way to settle their financial crisis), but not one that would take forty minutes to tell, not if you're trying to write it as a short film. You could tell this in fifteen minutes, tops, and save everyone passages like this: yourscript.com posted:AMANDA aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Trim it. Cut out everything that isn't essential. I can pretty much guarantee that almost no audience will want to sit through what you have right now but if you get to the meat of your story, then you might have something.
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Aug 30, 2011 20:36
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Magic Hate Ball posted:Well, you've got a few problems.... You're right, Thank you. Edit: I will amend that you actually got the exact tone that I was going for... "presented in the weirdest, dryest way. It's almost surreal how bland it is." While on the other hand, you are right, an audience won't tolerate it. York_M_Chan fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Aug 30, 2011 |
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Aug 30, 2011 21:31
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Magic Hate Ball posted:You're still stuck with really low stakes, though. I don't care if two pot-smoking high school students are in danger of not going to Yale or not being BFFs anymore. Make me care. I care about the characters in Bottle Rocket because they are interestingly flawed. It's amusing to watch them build themselves up to the ~*~heist of the century~*~ because the film is really about how small-town and immature they are (note that it is about the characters). I have a question regarding 'stakes' in my short script, but it applies generally as well. Isn't it true that the stakes of a story need to be important for the characters in the story, and not necessarily for the audience members? In my script, the characters are high schoolers who are smoking weed in a high school bathroom and they cause the fire alarm to go off... Now for one of the characters, who is the 'smart', more level-headed prep who's making a capricious judgement error, the stakes are incredibly high for him because this fire alarm could mean HUGE trouble for his academic future. Now, while audience members reading the script (or... I guess watching the film) might not care about that sort of offense, don't the stakes 'work' in terms of this character? Don't get me wrong, it doesn't work in my script the way it is. I also said my stakes involved the friendship between the two so this isn't necessarily applicable, but I just wanted to use this sort of situation as an example because I was confused about it.
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Sep 2, 2011 00:04
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Technically you're correct. If you look at The Social Network, you'll see that the stakes and goals for Zuckerberg are incredibly ridiculous and petty - but the dramatic drive is that these petty frustrations and grudges push Zuckerberg to impressive (if loathsome) heights. The question shouldn't be whether your character will get into Yale but what to what lengths will he go to guarantee that he does?York_M_Chan posted:Edit: I will amend that you actually got the exact tone that I was going for... "presented in the weirdest, dryest way. It's almost surreal how bland it is." While on the other hand, you are right, an audience won't tolerate it. The yuppie dialogue is really weird and unsettling and in a way that's a good thing because I get what you're going for, but in a case like this you definitely have to balance the banality with entertainment (see also Dillinger Is Dead and Jeanne Dielman). Your script is a little bit frightening because I find blind consumerism and store-bought mediocrity sort of scary. It's like a total waste of a life, people who have no interests or thoughts. Naturally they're often the subject of satire but rarely in a properly visceral way as you've managed, however excessively, in your script. If you can tighten it you'll have an excellent and creepy black comedy. Mike Works posted:So my question is... is that okay? I know that these pacing rules aren't set in stone, but I can't see this scene/instance happening anywhere else. Well, like anything it depends on the details but a mid-film revelation or turning point is far from unheard of. It probably wouldn't hurt to ensure that the film leads up to it in some way, whether tonally or even by foreshadowing, and builds from it. A great (if high-concept) example would be Dark City. Magic Hate Ball fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Sep 2, 2011 |
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Sep 2, 2011 00:31
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Ok, so that makes a lot more sense. This is sort of off-topic, but I f'n LOVE how enjoyable, and dramatic and engaging The Social Network is without having pretty much any violence, or sex that applies to the main character (or really, any of the characters). The script is an amazing read for anyone interested: http://flash.sonypictures.com/video/movies/thesocialnetwork/awards/thesocialnetwork_screenplay.pdf It's worth a look just for that opening scene.
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Sep 2, 2011 01:18
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When I bought the blu-ray I watched the first scene five times in a row.
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Sep 2, 2011 01:28
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The "Even if the side effects may include blindness" line was so bad. Imagine if that line was presented in this thread. People would be jumping down the writer's throat.
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Sep 2, 2011 03:05
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I got put down last time I asked this, but will someone read my script? It's a 180 page character drama. Last time I brought this up, Slashie bitched at me because it was so long and assumed that I was writing a fantasy or sci-fi. But nope. If I had to describe it, it would be an extremely sociopathic mix hybrid of Jeanne Dielman and A Woman Under the Influence. I realize that this is a monstrously sized screenplay, but I'm having a lot of trouble picking out what should be cut. I'm not trying to sell this script to anyone. If it gets made, it will be me that makes it. It's very personal. So, personally, I don't care if the finished product is like 4 hours, but if it is all redundancy I would like to know. It's hard to look at it myself with an objective lens. anyone willing to try and tackle this?
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Sep 5, 2011 05:37
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Oh god that sounds really long but I have nothing to do and I love both those movies and generally I like your posts so why not?
Magic Hate Ball fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Sep 5, 2011 |
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Sep 5, 2011 05:44
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Awesome! Don't feel obligated to rush through it or anything. I would love to know how you feel about any part of it, even if you don't finish it.
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Sep 5, 2011 06:14
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So I've recently embarked on a challenge for myself, new territory if you will. I work for Frederator Studios, which makes the animated show "Adventure Time." While there is a huge market for professional live action web-content, there really is nothing regarding professional animated web content. We want to fix this. Youtube and Frederator are coming together to make an animated web series, professional quality, direct for the web. All they need is an idea. That's where I come in. Me and my writing partner are pitching our series next week. Concept art, episodes, the works. But here's where it gets interesting: Each episode is only five minutes long. Nearly everything I know about screen-writing goes out the window with this time constraint. It's been a LOT of fun though. Here's what I've picked up... 1. The eight point story structure is still important, but how you look at it is different. For instance... Instead of starting at one, start at 3. Or, start at 1, but make the ending really anti-climactic. Play off their expectations. 2. Each episode is five minutes, which means there isn't any time for bullshitting around. Anything that is in their is either hilarious, important, or dramatic. Usually all three. It's actually really good practice at making things count. 3. Despite all my initial frustration at these constraints, I've learned to love them. A lot of my little ideas that I toy with in my head that I can't do anything with? There's not enough there for a full half-hour episode, but for a 5 minute one? Absolutely. All of these are of course applicable (and recommended) for features, but the five minute format seems to help reinforce these concepts. I feel like this could be really good practice for any screenwriters who want to try something new. Got an interesting idea and want to expand it? Make it 5 minutes. It'll help. Digi_Kraken fucked around with this message at 06:54 on Sep 5, 2011 |
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Sep 5, 2011 06:21
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TheMilkyNutBall posted:I have a question regarding 'stakes' in my short script, but it applies generally as well. Isn't it true that the stakes of a story need to be important for the characters in the story, and not necessarily for the audience members? In my script, the characters are high schoolers who are smoking weed in a high school bathroom and they cause the fire alarm to go off... Now for one of the characters, who is the 'smart', more level-headed prep who's making a capricious judgement error, the stakes are incredibly high for him because this fire alarm could mean HUGE trouble for his academic future. Now, while audience members reading the script (or... I guess watching the film) might not care about that sort of offense, don't the stakes 'work' in terms of this character? Not really. The script/movie needs to be gripping. That doesn't mean that it has to be full of plot twists or involve high stakes but it does mean that there has to be something to pull people in. An interesting adventure is one idea. Fleshed out, kind of strange characters and amazing dialog is another. Smoking in the bathroom, good kid going bad after he becomes friends with a bad/lower-income kid, cool burnout janitor, dorky Asian kid. All of it is cliche. Since it is a short, you don't have the time to make us care about the characters first or establish the friendship between the two kids. Here's another cliche thing that always pops up midway through a kids' sitcom run. Dorky kid, something happens, his perfect attendance record is in jeopardy. To that character, it is the most important thing in the world. Why does it work? Because it is usually a subplot, with an established character, played off for laughs. Could it work with a serious tone and an unestablished character? I think most people would agree it couldn't. the Bunt posted:I got put down last time I asked this, but will someone read my script? It's a 180 page character drama. Last time I brought this up, Slashie bitched at me because it was so long and assumed that I was writing a fantasy or sci-fi. But nope. If I had to describe it, it would be an extremely sociopathic mix hybrid of Jeanne Dielman and A Woman Under the Influence. I realize that this is a monstrously sized screenplay, but I'm having a lot of trouble picking out what should be cut. I'm game. (received, I'll try to read it tonight) Call Me Charlie fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Sep 5, 2011 |
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Sep 5, 2011 06:43
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the Bunt posted:Awesome! Don't feel obligated to rush through it or anything. I would love to know how you feel about any part of it, even if you don't finish it. I got up to about the Tiki Bar scene last night and I'm looking forward to finishing it, but do you have a PDF version? Just as a word of advice, as far as I know it's pretty much the standard for sending scripts electronically. You're also missing pages numbers, which is a pain in the neck.
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Sep 5, 2011 17:03
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quote:(and please don't quote that part so I can edit it out) Thanks man! Will send the PDF now. Magic Hate Ball posted:I got up to about the Tiki Bar scene last night and I'm looking forward to finishing it, but do you have a PDF version? Just as a word of advice, as far as I know it's pretty much the standard for sending scripts electronically. You're also missing pages numbers, which is a pain in the neck. I write in Celtx. It's page numbering system is a little wacky in my experience. It tends to skip pages and whatnot. It's kinda weird. So I'm not exactly sure how long it actually is. I also didn't even know Celtx could make PDFs until now so thanks a lot there. Will send you that now.
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Sep 5, 2011 20:02
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I finished a rough draft of a screenplay several weeks ago, and would be really interested in getting a nonbiased opinion on the flow of the story as well as plot points. Anyway my email is hollismason at gmail.com This is a rough draft and the very first screenplay I have ever written. I took a while off before going back to it so that I could look at it fresh pick it apart and make changes. I've had some friends read it and they seem to like it but that isn't a unbiased opinion. edit: Oh I should add this is a uncorrected draft meaning I wrote this thing and then walked away from it for awhile. I am just wondering if I should bother going back and bothering. I wrote the screenplay in about 4 days, I dunno how either. I regularly write sketches but once I started writing it it was just done. I didn't plot anything out, or anything like that I just wrote the drat thing. Hollismason fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Sep 8, 2011 |
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Sep 7, 2011 16:47
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MixMasterGriff posted:I feel like this could be really good practice for any screenwriters who want to try something new. Got an interesting idea and want to expand it? Make it 5 minutes. It'll help. I went through the same thing, I had a 30 min animated show but our producer who was pitching the show had us write a 15 min version of the same story and a 5 min version. It was a great experiment in really editing plot and comedy.
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Sep 7, 2011 18:03
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Hollis posted:I finished a rough draft of a screenplay several weeks ago, and would be really interested in getting a nonbiased opinion on the flow of the story as well as plot points. Anyway my email is hollismason at gmail.com I'll give it a go! pojohead at aol dot com
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Sep 7, 2011 20:14
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York_M_Chan posted:I went through the same thing, I had a 30 min animated show but our producer who was pitching the show had us write a 15 min version of the same story and a 5 min version. It was a great experiment in really editing plot and comedy. It's also a big motivator as well. I don't feel like getting off my rear end and writing a 15 minute episode, but 5 minutes? Well, poo poo, that's doable.
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Sep 7, 2011 22:27
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I can never write on the weekend so I decided to get some reading done. Hollis, I'll edit in my response to your script after I read it later. the Bunt posted:Thanks man! Will send the PDF now. I was writing my thoughts down as I read. - The way you constructed some of it was strange. Items coming out of nowhere, CUT TO: generic location, the lack of time (I was kind of confused the first time you said that a few months had passed, it didn't come off to me that way while I was reading), camera directions, lack of description for certain scenes (the biggest offender being "Let's fog this bitch out." CUT TO: They do. CUT TO: INT. LIVING ROOM, LATER) - I hated the ending. There was such a slow build for the first 120ish pages and than all of the sudden the story just accelerated while abandoning everything you previously built up. Her biological father is introduced, other characters just drop out (Ted, the yacht guy she was loving/robbed, the drug dealer guy who gets mad she steps on his bong), everybody's drinking gets out of control, her best friend sleeps with the father, some crazy doctor guy fucks her after patching her up in the ER, she gets bombed with her dad who says he thought of her when he was loving her friend, abandons her friends by not paying the rent, moves back home, beats the hell out of her ex best friend who reveals she is pregnant, gets bombed with her mom. All of that happens over about sixty pages. The ending for 185 pages? Colin tells her some out there dream he had, she apologizes to him, and dives in the ocean. BOO. Sorry if that comes off as too harsh but it was a disappointment. - Speaking of Eve, what happened with her brother (where she chased him around, dangled a spit rope in his face, and forced him to drink Vodka) came off as extremely out of character. The whole story she pretty much viewed him as perfect and the only thing she truly loved. Under no circumstance did it seem like she had that in her. - If you are looking for stuff to cut, I think you can safely cut out everything regarding Becca. I get the idea of Eva corrupting somebody but the character was boring, unrealistic and added nothing of real value. Another thing you could cut is (I think it was) the Lake House party which seemed redundant. Maybe take some of the elements from that and put it in one of the other parties. - With a dream sequence, I think you are suppose to put END OF DREAM at the end. - What is up with the ("Mordeai"), ("Debaser") in certain sections? Are those songs? More (potentially petty) things I wrote down. - Pg 1, regarding Eve's introduction, shouldn't her overall appearance be described when she is first introduced, not later when she is looking at herself in the mirror? - Pg 2, "You were in my dream last night. - Pg 11, who was unable to balance? Eve or Colin? - Pg 12, maybe add a reason why Eve came in, like she heard the door close. - Pg 15, laughter from who? - Pg 25, band plays what? - Pg 29, where did the receipt come from? - If you do keep Becca in, it would be more interesting if we saw Eve push her into doing things more. Like the party at her house. - Pg 121, cut the Eminem line. - Pg 123, cut "That was definitely the most fun we've seen her have all movie" - Didn't write down the page but Eva and the Dad drinking while Leaving Las Vegas plays on the screen...no. Just no. Bad. I hope that didn't come off as too negative. I did enjoy most of the first 2/3rds of the script. With some polish and a rewritten third half, I think you have will something special on your hands. Call Me Charlie fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Sep 10, 2011 |
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Sep 10, 2011 22:21
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Thanks!! -The vagueness of many scenes/locations/times was intentional. I wanted it to feel like it does when I'm black-out drunk. First you're here, now suddenly you're here and it's hours/days/weeks later. However, that you did not realize months had passed in that one case, and some general other vagaries are most definitely bad things I need to fix. It's very apparent at times that I sort of took an almost stream of consciousness way of writing it as I'd often get very caught up in what was in my head to effectively lay it out for someone who isn't me. -The Becca stuff was a huge problem. This started off as an ensemble piece, until I realized more and more that I didn't particularly care about any of the characters as much as Eve and I felt she could carry it all. As a result, Becca is sort of this half-baked concept that never really culminates into anything special. I think I could actually cut most of her stuff out with very little hassle. Would definitely tighten it up a lot and get rid of dead weight. -While I'm very sad that you did not like the ending, I can't say I wasn't expecting some negativity around it. I personally feel the problem lies more in the first 2/3rds than the end half. The beginning, I was still getting to know this character and what I wanted to get across. As a result, I feel a lot of it is a little redundant. Most every scene is there to reflect something about Eve, but I'm sure at times it's a little bash-you-over-the-head with the "isn't this girl just messed up!?" over and over again. I could probably do with taking some of those end scenes and spreading them amongst the movie. -The transience of the sub-characters was intentional. Eve mostly associates with people she needs to. The drug dealer isn't so much a friend as a convenience, and when he gets (rightfully) angry at her, then he's gone. After he has been, honestly, a really good friend for the whole movie, I thought it would be effective that she (and the movie) drops him at the slightest sign of confliction. Same story with the yacht guy, though I might have spent too much run time on that side-story. I wasn't using all these separate plotlines as a means for it all to coalesce in the end, but to expand more and more on Eve's personality. The sudden appearance of the biological father, probably the most important character besides Eve herself, in the last 70 pages is kinda offputting but that is the effect I wanted. The narrative forms itself around the father and all but disregards everything else to reflect Eve's world. Again, I think the main problem is I took wayyy too long to actually reveal the real story of the film- daddy issues. -The spit/vodka thing could be a bit out of character, maybe. I don't personally think so. She didn't do that out of malice or contempt. I suggested that child abuse is circular. It is a thing her dad did to her, and Colin is the most son-like person in her life, so why not? That's why I made it a point for her not to feel very remorseful about it. poo poo happens. and yeah, all the stuff in quotes is the ideal songs I would use. And if I don't, I still put it in the script as an emotional reminder to myself. Writing to music helps me a lot, and remembering the music I wrote something to when I go back and film gives me a better sense of how I want the scene to be paced. This is a pet project. If I don't make this, it's not getting made. I'm very happy you read it all and took the time to critique!
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Sep 11, 2011 05:24
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the Bunt posted:-While I'm very sad that you did not like the ending, I can't say I wasn't expecting some negativity around it. I personally feel the problem lies more in the first 2/3rds than the end half. The beginning, I was still getting to know this character and what I wanted to get across. As a result, I feel a lot of it is a little redundant. Most every scene is there to reflect something about Eve, but I'm sure at times it's a little bash-you-over-the-head with the "isn't this girl just messed up!?" over and over again. I could probably do with taking some of those end scenes and spreading them amongst the movie. To me, the first 2/3rds came off almost like an adventure and slow slide down for Eve...which made the final 1/3 so jarring. the Bunt posted:-The transience of the sub-characters was intentional. Eve mostly associates with people she needs to. The drug dealer isn't so much a friend as a convenience, and when he gets (rightfully) angry at her, then he's gone. After he has been, honestly, a really good friend for the whole movie, I thought it would be effective that she (and the movie) drops him at the slightest sign of confliction. Same story with the yacht guy, though I might have spent too much run time on that side-story. I wasn't using all these separate plotlines as a means for it all to coalesce in the end, but to expand more and more on Eve's personality. The sudden appearance of the biological father, probably the most important character besides Eve herself, in the last 70 pages is kinda offputting but that is the effect I wanted. The narrative forms itself around the father and all but disregards everything else to reflect Eve's world. Again, I think the main problem is I took wayyy too long to actually reveal the real story of the film- daddy issues. I think my biggest issue with some of the sub-characters disappearing is the way they did. - Ted is dismissed with one line from the mom. - The yacht guy was robbed. Now he had a safe full of money and drugs. You think he would try to confront Eve or get revenge but nope, the cops search Eve's new apartment, nothing happens, yacht guy never mentioned again. - The drug dealer did let Eve crash with him and she did sell him Ecstasy for dirt cheap as a thank you. I didn't think they were best buddies but it did seem like there was something there. For all of that to disintegrate over her breaking a bong...seemed silly. I didn't necessarily care about any of those characters but I was curious to how they would affect Eve. the Bunt posted:-The spit/vodka thing could be a bit out of character, maybe. I don't personally think so. She didn't do that out of malice or contempt. I suggested that child abuse is circular. It is a thing her dad did to her, and Colin is the most son-like person in her life, so why not? That's why I made it a point for her not to feel very remorseful about it. poo poo happens. I didn't get that at all. She woke up early with a hangover to take him places, hung out with him all the time, was the only person she showed real affection to, bought video games for him to play at her apartment. For her to go from that to what she did, with no remorse, it didn't make any sense. Honestly, I think you are getting stuck in the mud over the whole father thing and trying to make things circular. That came off as more beating me over the head with the message than the parties did. the Bunt posted:Thanks!! No problem. I'm glad I could help out. 
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Sep 11, 2011 18:33
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Question about descriptive mechanics: I'm writing a scene where a character is watching The Breakfast Club on TV. Except I'm currently referring to it as "an '80s teen movie" because I'm under the impression that writing about a character watching a specific movie or listening to a specific song is a surefire way to get ignored. However, I'm trying to reveal a big part of this character's emotional dilemma through the act of watching this movie. I'll write it out here using the specifics I'm afraid to go into. quote:INT. AUDREY'S LIVING ROOM - LATE NIGHT This is part of a larger sequence that serves two purposes for defining Audrey as a character: 1.) To establish a circumstantial connection to the other main character, a goony layabout. (It's a love story, and yes, I'm fully aware that I may be starting off from a really bad place - that's a whole other can of worms that I'm trying not to think about until I'm ready to have the script critiqued.) 2.) To establish a fear of not being able to connect with others. Whether or not I'm on my way to meeting those goals is up to you, and I'm willing to hear opinions either way. My chief concern right now is that once I start speaking in vague terms, I have trouble feeling like I'm getting the point of this scene across. To me, the scene I refer to in The Breakfast Club represents honesty between strangers, and I'm trying to show a character who longs for the ability to do that. Once I make it "an '80s teen movie", then I feel like I have to explain, in detail, the content of what she's watching in order to give readers a sense of what Audrey's reacting to. This pads out the scene (this is my second draft, the first clocked in at 153 pages; I'm shooting for 120 and will hate myself if it gets any thicker than 130), and it'll feel like an even more blatant expression of what's going through Audrey's head. (Another good question: should I be showing more and telling less to begin with?) I don't know, I'm probably being ridiculous. Could I get away with referring to The Breakfast Club in this situation? Hell, am I under the wrong impression about referring to pre-existing movies and songs to begin with? And if not...well, I don't know how much you guys can help without writing the drat scene for me (to be clear, I don't want that to happen), but should I just change strategies entirely?
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Sep 11, 2011 21:11
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Besides the copyright issue, you're assuming everyone has seen The Breakfast Club. If someone hasn't seen it, the entire point could be lost. Wordless things are usually better. Lady MacBeth compulsively washing her hands, for instance. It's clear that her guilt and paranoia is taking over as she does it more and more. Try looking for more universal things, since many people might not have seen the Breakfast Club anyway. But that's just me.
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Sep 12, 2011 00:43
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Either way, it makes perfect sense. Thank you!
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Sep 12, 2011 02:38
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MixMasterGriff posted:Besides the copyright issue, you're assuming everyone has seen The Breakfast Club. If someone hasn't seen it, the entire point could be lost. So if you are going to make a reference, make sure that it is clear what it is trying to accomplish.
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Sep 12, 2011 16:36
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TheYellowFog posted:While it's good not to get too esoteric with references, cutting references out because someone might not follow them doesn't have to be the answer. If he shows a pivotal scene from the breakfast club then even people who haven't seen it will probably understand the point he is trying to make. You didn't have to see Joan of Arc to know that in Vivre Sa Vie there was a connection between the two. A more recent example is 500 days of summer; even if you haven't seen the graduate you can tell the connection between what they watch in the theatre (a nervous and unsure couple) and how it is meant to comment on Summer and Tom's relationship. Well, that's the million dollar question -- whether or not the reference does the job without feeling too esoteric -- but without context (and since I already told you what I was going for), I guess I'll just have to run with it and see how the critiques come back. Follow your gut, right? I'm just worried that my gut has poo poo for brains.
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Sep 12, 2011 16:49
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I would move away from it. A big problem is that screenwriters and filmmakers working now looked up to screenwriters and filmmakers in the 90s, those were the ones who brought in the "collage artist" aspect of making movies for the hyperliterate. It's hard to relate to and it's lazy. I'm watching a lot of films from film schools and SO MANY of them are about other movies or what movies meant to them or pull heavily from other movies and all too often it's a substitution for any sort of real meaning. It's "This movie had a message, and now that movie's message is my message". I'd advise you to stay away.
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Sep 12, 2011 18:41
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NeuroticErotica posted:I would move away from it. I'll try to take that to heart, but I wouldn't say that I'm cannibalizing on such a large scale, as if this movie is about how The Breakfast Club makes certain people feel lonely. I'm -- pardon me, I'm about to sound like the biggest loving blowhard -- attempting to use an established image and the mood it evokes to contrast with a character's state of mind and reveal a part of her inner struggle. That being said, I agree that it's not the most elegant way to do it. It's tricky, though; I'm reluctant to go too deep into it, but Audrey's kind of a dark character, and I thought that giving her a love of 80s teen movies and pop music was an interesting way to shade (key word: SHADE) her. At the same time, I'm fully aware that there are pitfalls to having a pop culture junkie for a character. The best defense I know of is to not let that love define her. That's easy enough, there are plenty of other aspects of her personality and her history that do a better job of it. As for the two or three times where I'll want to bring it up, though...whether or not that's still too much, I'll have to leave that to the people who are going to read this for me once I finish this draft.
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Sep 12, 2011 19:59
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NeuroticErotica posted:I would move away from it. This bothers me too. When I first started filmmaking/writing, all my movies were refrences. They were all spoofs or parodies or just plain rip-offs. But I learnt what I was doing, and eventually I could do my own thing. I can't get over the fact some people never grow out of that stage. They seem to think the more movies they reference/parody the better the film must be. It's 'meta.' It's lazy and I hate it. Do your own thing. Everyone has influences, Kurosawa, Welles, PTA, Sorkin, they're all big influences, but you don't have to reference them every 5 minutes. Not that you're doing that DivisionPost, I'm just saying in general.
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Sep 12, 2011 20:10
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Hey Bunt, I finished Slur. It's quite a monster of a script. Very good throughout but definitely overlong. I know you have the ambition to film it and gently caress the time limit but it's not the kind of film that should be three hours long, or even two and a half. Maybe about two hours, like Fish Bowl. Compress the first half into maybe three distinct events (recall the rule of threes), maybe three major parties with smaller, tightened pieces of home life inbetween. Consider blending a couple characters because you've got a huge multitude as it is. I don't disagree with the ending, though it does come off as a little melodramatic. You've got an issue where Eve descends really far and then starts to normalize, and then suddenly she punches her friend's fetus and tries to choke her dad. It's just an issue of pacing. The last quarter is really dawdling and then suddenly action-action-terror. You have a chance to blend in some poetry, here, by the way. Blend in some mythological influences. Structure a party sequence around the Seven Deadly Sins, for example. Mostly you're lacking a strong structure. The whole script is an opportunity for some very beautiful cinematography. Some notes I started taking while I was reading: On page 101 where they ride the bungee launcher, technically that'd probably be really, really difficult to pull off. I'm getting Phoebe Caulfield vibes from Colin. You give Becca too much weight in the beginning of the script. She should appear only periodically, as she does in the second half. I don't think Becca functions well as a main character because she distracts too much from Eve (and she suggests her own, Dorian-Gray-esque script). She should be, throughout, a peripheral character with an off-screen evolution that relates or comments on, in some way or another, Eve's life. Basically you have to either put her in more of the film or make her mostly inconsequential. You're going to have to include, in dialogue, some indications as to what they're taking. On page 121 they take meth, which is essentially a horrible, bottom-of-the-pit hell-drug and that's enormously important, but it's not mentioned and probably wouldn't be visually obvious. The scene between Eve and her dad at the Arcade is basically meaningless right now. It has the potential to provide some answers as to Eve's personality. The scene between Becca and Eve on page 131 is too question-answer. Everything in their conversation could be implied (maybe she could already be eating Big Macs, provoking a reaction from Eve, which would at least provide some reason for her to bring up that she's not the same person she once was). On 133 you say "Some Guy", but he's given a name about ten seconds later. You could probably just introduce him as "Donn's friend Steve". Nice job on Eve going through meth withdrawl on the bus and being sick (134-140-ish), very gross and effective. 149, I don't get the birthday dialogue: "I forgot what day it is." "Christ, Eve..." Part two of Eve's dream ("Eve is Colin") is really silly and unnecessary. The first part in the ocean is very good, though ("golden light", "engulfed in flames"). Page 157, "It was good seeing you again, Evelyn" is a little weird because it seems like he just saw her a couple nights ago. Don't show Colin's dream, it's vivid enough spoken to evoke imagery. Think of the beach sex in Persona, never shown but so evocative that some audience members remember it as being in the film. The dream is also a little bit silly. Shorten it and make it more ambiguous.
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Sep 12, 2011 20:18
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MixMasterGriff posted:This bothers me too. When I first started filmmaking/writing, all my movies were refrences. They were all spoofs or parodies or just plain rip-offs. But I learnt what I was doing, and eventually I could do my own thing. No worries. I saw an indie movie called Film Geek a few years ago...actually, I saw about two minutes of that movie before I decided that I wanted to turn it off, find the director, rubber band together all the copies of Clerks. that I was sure he owned, and beat the crap out of him with that brick. Of course, this is probably NeuroticErotica's cue to reveal that he knows that guy and he's actually kind of cool.
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Sep 12, 2011 20:22
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Kevin Smith is a dick, unfortunately. I've worked with 50 Cent however. He's the nicest guy you'll ever meet. Curtious, polite, always looking to do his best. Who would have thought?
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Sep 12, 2011 20:34
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| # ? Apr 19, 2024 18:34 |
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MixMasterGriff posted:Kevin Smith is a dick, unfortunately. I was actually referring to the guy that directed Film Geek, but this wouldn't be the first time I heard of the dickery of Kevin Smith. But yeah, color me surprised about 50. (Sorry about the derail, guys!)
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Sep 12, 2011 20:47
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