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Wolfsheim posted:To be fair I'm pretty sure I'd noticed after an hour or so if I had a brick of C4 in my pocket. I just naturally assumed that, like me, every character in Fallout carries 99.999999% of their carrying capacity all day, every day, and thus wouldn't notice the lump of C4 jammed in there.
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Oct 31, 2011 03:01
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Cook-Cook, the man so cartoonishly evil you have *multiple* quests to deal with people he raped.
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Oct 31, 2011 03:21
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Boogaleeboo posted:Cook-Cook, the man so cartoonishly evil you have *multiple* quests to deal with people he raped. Unless you're counting the guys selling the refugees as one, I suppose.
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Oct 31, 2011 03:36
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Strudel Man posted:Hm? What's the other one? There's also the quest where you have to help Corporal Betsy get counseling to get over being raped by Cook Cook.
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Oct 31, 2011 03:40
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Strudel Man posted:Hm? What's the other one? He captured and raped one of the sniper team at McCarran. http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/I_Don%27t_Hurt_Anymore Once you kill him, you have to convince the victim to seek therapy. As opposed to the well-rounded Courier, who can continue his/her path of vengeance against Benny unimpeded.
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Oct 31, 2011 03:41
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Jerusalem posted:What I liked doing in Nipton was after talking to that smug rear end in a top hat Vulpes Inculta, heading down the road a bit and laying down a shitload of frag mines. Then I'd go a little off the road and activate my Stealth Boy. Jerusalem posted:No no, you don't kill Vulpes when you first meet him. You loving CRIPPLE him. You blow his goddamn legs off with mines while stealthed, so the smug, murderous rear end in a top hat can limp his way out of Nipton having learned that he doesn't get to have things his own way and his Legion can't protect him. Let him drag his rear end across the desert back to Caesar, only to be told shortly after that the guy who did it to him is now protected from on high and he must go and pass on an invitation/forgiveness to him. These were posted about a month apart. You really have it out for Vulpes. 
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Oct 31, 2011 03:42
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LLCoolJD posted:These were posted about a month apart. You really have it out for Vulpes. Nipton and Vulpes in particular just really irritated me, I feel like that whole early game interaction/learning about the Legion is designed to make you hate them, and Vulpes is the earliest personification of the Legion as a whole v  v
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Oct 31, 2011 03:55
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Jerusalem posted:Nipton and Vulpes in particular just really irritated me, I feel like that whole early game interaction/learning about the Legion is designed to make you hate them, and Vulpes is the earliest personification of the Legion as a whole v I really liked Vulpes because he saved me the trouble of killing everyone for their stuff.
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Oct 31, 2011 04:06
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Jerusalem posted:Nipton and Vulpes in particular just really irritated me, I feel like that whole early game interaction/learning about the Legion is designed to make you hate them, and Vulpes is the earliest personification of the Legion as a whole v I agree. Vulpes was too arrogant, also. I had my character annihilate Vulpes and his crew when I first encountered them.
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Oct 31, 2011 04:10
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Jerusalem posted:Nipton and Vulpes in particular just really irritated me, I feel like that whole early game interaction/learning about the Legion is designed to make you hate them, and Vulpes is the earliest personification of the Legion as a whole v Vulpes owns though, his quests to kill some Omertas and then blow up the monorail are equally awesome. And his name literally translates to Desert Fox 
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Oct 31, 2011 04:14
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Infanticide posted:In regards to the creeps staying in the apartments in Westside, when you discover they've been selling women and children to Cook-cook of all people, you have the option of telling Pretty Sarah what they've been doing so she can take care of the problem personally. I didn't know you could do that, but it's not like I'd try to do so in any of my playthroughs- those two are also on my 'kill ASAP' list, along with the 3 named fiends. Those 5 people, and no more (not counting random fiends and whatnot).
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Oct 31, 2011 04:37
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Boogaleeboo posted:Cook-Cook, the man so cartoonishly evil you have *multiple* quests to deal with people he raped.
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Oct 31, 2011 06:16
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Father Wendigo posted:A man so evil Nephi and Violet told you to avoid him. Well, they would if they weren't bombed out of their skulls on turpentine and cazador venom. That page has some more interesting cut stuff. Holy poo poo, Benny comes after you AGAIN even if he gets off the hook. I'm so glad I jumped off a balcony and beaned that dude with a pipe the first time I saw him.
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Oct 31, 2011 06:36
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Doug Lombardi posted:There's also the quest where you have to help Corporal Betsy get counseling to get over being raped by Cook Cook.
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Oct 31, 2011 07:16
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Edit: I retract my joke, I actually didn't think there was another quest dealing with someone Cook Cook had raped.
Omnicarus fucked around with this message at 07:25 on Oct 31, 2011 |
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Oct 31, 2011 07:18
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Strudel Man posted:Yeah, that's the obvious one. Is there another one to deal with people he raped? If you talk to Marco you can find out he raped and burned Pretty Sarah, then get a reward from her on killing him.
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Oct 31, 2011 07:23
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Boogaleeboo posted:If you talk to Marco you can find out he raped and burned Pretty Sarah, then get a reward from her on killing him. Also, he raped the burned man pretty bad...
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Oct 31, 2011 07:31
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The game really throws in your face that "hey player Legion are the bad guys have you heard about that enough yet hey look they killed a whole town of people they're the bad guys okay yeah listen to this guy who is a member of NCR who tells you about caesar's legion and how they are totally the bad guys" Apologies for such extreme emphasis, but the game really loves to try to railroad you into siding with NCR the first time through. It's only after you head to their encampment and talk to Caesar that you learn of their side of the whole war, and that he's really only a bad guy by the way he does things; if you listen to him, he wants what's best for him AND his followers, just like the rest of the game's factions.
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Oct 31, 2011 07:34
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CJacobs posted:The game really throws in your face that "hey player Legion are the bad guys have you heard about that enough yet hey look they killed a whole town of people they're the bad guys okay yeah listen to this guy who is a member of NCR who tells you about caesar's legion and how they are totally the bad guys" LoL. they railroaded you with that whole holocaust thing into not liking Hitler. once you sat down and heard his economic policies it was a whole different war!
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Oct 31, 2011 07:40
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Not wasting any time with that  are you, Kharmakazy?
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Oct 31, 2011 07:44
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I feel for the people of Nipton, but I am more concerned about the inevitable legislative response.
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Oct 31, 2011 07:45
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Wrap it up, NCRailures
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Oct 31, 2011 07:48
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Kharmakazy posted:LoL. they railroaded you with that whole holocaust thing into not liking Hitler. once you sat down and heard his economic policies it was a whole different war! Thanks for that, Godwin, but my point is that the game tries to get you to go one way in a game that is supposed to be about going any way you please, just like it does with everything giving good karma and hardly anything giving bad karma. But hey good job reading my post and making an appropriate and well thought-out response that relates a free-roam FPSRPG about the post-nuclear world to the Holocaust, that must have taken some effort! 
CJacobs fucked around with this message at 08:03 on Oct 31, 2011 |
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Oct 31, 2011 07:58
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Boogaleeboo posted:If you talk to Marco you can find out he raped and burned Pretty Sarah, then get a reward from her on killing him.
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Oct 31, 2011 07:58
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CJacobs posted:Thanks for that, Godwin, but my point is that the game tries to get you to go one way in a game that is supposed to be about going any way you please, just like it does with everything giving good karma and hardly anything giving bad karma. But hey good job reading my post and making an appropriate and well thought-out response that relates a free-roam FPSRPG about the post-nuclear world to the Holocaust, that must have taken some effort! It actually does. There is no way you can roll around going "The Legion is justified due to X" when the NCR do their best to be actual humans while Legion are a pack of animals whose noble long term dream will just turn into a free for all carnage fest when their idiotic Detroit mechanic or whatever leader dies. The Legion are unequivocally bad. Every tenet of their society is pretty horrifying.
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Oct 31, 2011 08:02
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CJacobs posted:Thanks for that, Godwin, but my point is that the game tries to get you to go one way in a game that is supposed to be about going any way you please, just like it does with everything giving good karma and hardly anything giving bad karma. But hey good job reading my post and making an appropriate and well thought-out response that relates a free-roam FPSRPG about the post-nuclear world to the Holocaust, that must have taken some effort! its free roaming. I didn't even find nipton until my like, 8th playthough. Your argument is that boo hoo they told me the bad guys were bad guys now I know they are bad guys even though their leader is not as evil as his soldiers. They tilted my sandbox.
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Oct 31, 2011 08:04
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My other point is that this is one of the reasons I love Fallout in general: People play based on themselves even if they don't realize it. It may sound like some 11th grade psychology poo poo, but it's like a real life situation: Some people will inherently side with Legion, some will side with NCR, and the majority will just say "no gods no masters" and take over Vegas for themselves. Gimmick runs aside, anyone who has learned anything about either faction (read: read some articles on the fallout wiki) will form their own opinion on who to side with, and siding with the other faction will become the subject of their "do this just to try it" run. But if you go independent, you don't have to worry about either but are still forced into the same basic boss fight and ending, which brings me back to my first point: The game intentionally railroads you into not liking the Legion regardless of whether you like them or not. You could be Vulpes' best buddy and the game would still allow you to regain your karma as easy as killing a few Feral Ghouls. When siding with Legion, there is nothing you cannot recover from short of killing the head general of the NCR himself. Some may say that's because they really are the bad faction of death and destruction, but I take it as the game trying to make you play the hero and not the villain. To each his own, I suppose, which is what Fallout is all about! Kharmakazy posted:Your argument is that boo hoo they told me the bad guys were bad guys now I know they are bad guys even though their leader is not as evil as his soldiers. They tilted my sandbox. wait, you think we are arguing about something? not everyone is looking to fight against everyone else in every post y'know
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Oct 31, 2011 08:08
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J Bjelke-Postersen posted:It actually does. There is no way you can roll around going "The Legion is justified due to X" when the NCR do their best to be actual humans while Legion are a pack of animals whose noble long term dream will just turn into a free for all carnage fest when their idiotic Detroit mechanic or whatever leader dies. Caravans are safer in Legion territory than in NCR territory, because Caesar wants the economy to be powerful. You are really saying that well-protected caravans are awful?
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Oct 31, 2011 08:09
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CJacobs posted:My other point is that this is one of the reasons I love Fallout in general: People play based on themselves even if they don't realize it. It may sound like some 11th grade psychology poo poo, but it's like a real life situation: Some people will inherently side with Legion, some will side with NCR, and the majority will just say "no gods no masters" and take over Vegas for themselves. Gimmick runs aside, anyone who has learned anything about either faction (read: read some articles on the fallout wiki) will form their own opinion on who to side with, and siding with the other faction will become the subject of their "do this just to try it" run. Sorry, my bad I thought you had a point, you were just sobbing into your mousepad. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 31, 2011 08:17
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CommanderCoffee posted:Caravans are safer in Legion territory than in NCR territory, because Caesar wants the economy to be powerful. You are really saying that well-protected caravans are awful? He eliminated the roaming, bare-assed leather chap wearing rape gangs you find all over the wasteland by replacing them with one centralized rape gang. As a result, you no longer have to worry about being raided when you are making money for his rape gang. In a sense, this is like a positive.
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Oct 31, 2011 08:18
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CommanderCoffee posted:Caravans are safer in Legion territory than in NCR territory, because Caesar wants the economy to be powerful. You are really saying that well-protected caravans are awful? This is basically the Legion version of "He made the trains run on time".
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Oct 31, 2011 08:19
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Kharmakazy posted:Sorry, my bad I thought you had a point, you were just sobbing into your mousepad. You're a quick one, I'll give you that. Play however you want to play, who am I to stop you? Once again (since you ignored it and went straight for the jugular), Fallout is about believing whatever you want to believe, you aren't confined to what the game tells you to do. Even though the game tries really hard to get you to be the "good guy", you can still be the archetypal blood offering brute if you so please! You can do whatever you want. That is the point. That is what my first post on the matter was about. EDIT: Also, I don't use a mouse pad! That's what the little bumpers on the bottom of the mouse are for! Plus, it gives me lots of precision for whatever I choose to set my X/Y sensitivity to. CJacobs fucked around with this message at 08:23 on Oct 31, 2011 |
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Oct 31, 2011 08:19
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Boogaleeboo posted:He eliminated the roaming, bare-assed leather chap wearing rape gangs you find all over the wasteland by replacing them with one centralized rape gang. As a result, you no longer have to worry about being raided when you are making money for his rape gang. Would you rather be on the side of the rape gang that wants you alive, or at the mercy of a hundred rape gangs? Not trying to justify the Legion, I'm just saying that saying all parts are bad is being ignorant of at least one point in which they, arguably, do the most good, in a sense.
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Oct 31, 2011 08:20
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Boogaleeboo posted:He eliminated the roaming, bare-assed leather chap wearing rape gangs you find all over the wasteland by replacing them with one centralized rape gang. As a result, you no longer have to worry about being raided when you are making money for his rape gang. His governmental structure revolves around kill relentlessly, rule through total fear, enslave all women and develop baby farming to create more warriors, then perpetuate situation forever until I reach the ocean. Then I guess everyone who thrived on murder, rape and whatever will just set up a democracy or something.
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Oct 31, 2011 08:23
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Whoops, I didn't mean to inspire yet another "Caesar is a knowledgeable person because X" or "Caesar is a terrible leader because Y" discussion. This series of posts about how much I love Fallout did not turn out how I wanted them to at all!
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Oct 31, 2011 08:27
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CJacobs posted:You're a quick one, I'll give you that. Play however you want to play, who am I to stop you? Once again (since you ignored it and went straight for the jugular), Fallout is about believing whatever you want to believe, you aren't confined to what the game tells you to do. Even though the game tries really hard to get you to be the "good guy", you can still be the archetypal blood offering brute if you so please! You can do whatever you want. That is the point. That is what my first post on the matter was about. Your point simply doesn't hold. You can go to nipton and be all like.. HELL YEAH! and go run errands for vulpes. They set a story and let you pick sides. You can side with the legion in that scene! its one of the options. Then you can run back to the outpost and be all like.. gently caress YOU LEGION RULES! Your immersion is intact.
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Oct 31, 2011 08:29
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CommanderCoffee posted:Would you rather be on the side of the rape gang that wants you alive, or at the mercy of a hundred rape gangs? As my performance to date has shown, the answer is for me to strip naked and kill every single loving rape gang there is, in the space of 20 hours, while constantly screaming. I think I made the right choice.
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Oct 31, 2011 08:29
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You have to consider how bad life is in the wasteland normally. Not for the Magic Player Character, but the average person. Living in Legion territory is better than living in Arizona prior to the Legion. Is it better than living in the center of the NCR? Probably not, but we have every reason to believe the NCR is an anomaly. Most places are worse than that. Also living in Legion territory is not the same thing as being in the Legion. Sawyer's forumspring has had a bunch of Legion stuff lately, stuff that either people ignored, misinterpreted, or had to be cut from the game. From what he's posted I think it's pretty clear that there are little towns all over Legion territory who basically just don't gently caress with the Legion, pay their taxes or whatever, and get left alone as long as they continue not causing trouble. They don't enslave everybody.
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Oct 31, 2011 08:30
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This thread is fairly cyclical, and the argument for / against Caesar's Legion comes around often enough. Ostensibly, Caesar's Legion is pretty evil. And if you follow the plot's invisible hand, you get a lot of reasons to continue thinking that. Hell, even after you learn about their history and their plans, the NCR's the lesser of two evils. That being said, it's less a fight between "good and evil" and more of one between "gray and charcoal." Josh Sawyer went into details about how a lot of the Legion's justifications didn't make it into the game, like their apparent misogyny (Caesar wanted women to be busy reproducing and growing the Legion's ranks, not because women were inferior.) The absence of many explanations leads the player to assume the simplest explanation. Of course, you could take the Legate's opinion on women as the opinion of the rest of the Legion. The Legion did what they did in Nipton for more reasons than doghead explains. According to him, it was about idealism and punishing the wicked. But the attack was also psychological warfare on the NCR, orchestrated in part by its own leadership, (the mayor). And while the Legion had Nipton, the NCR had Bitter Springs, where the elderly and children were gunned down by NCR soldiers. Although it's cited as an accident, some NPCs have the opinion that it was anything but that. Similar to the Legion, the NCR has a habit of going around and taking whatever it wants. This involves killing any resistance (as in Bullhead City) in something known as "The Pacification of the Mojave." In exchange, the "protection" they give to their new citizens is impotent and inefficient. Their incompetence leads to things like the outbreak of Powder Gangers, who proceed to run around and kill people while the NCR's response is to sit on their thumbs and hope for the best. Even their history involves a series of idiotic miscalculations, like blowing up a coal town and killing a bunch of inhabitants (accidentally.) Their general greed and over-reaching allows gangs to prey on citizens and caravans with relative impunity. All the while, they're too busy looking at what will make them more money and expand their territory. Cream-of-Plenty fucked around with this message at 08:34 on Oct 31, 2011 |
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Oct 31, 2011 08:31
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Caesar's Legion is horrific. Supporting them against the NCR is pretty morally reprehensible. However, they're not mustache twirling pure evil. They've got an understandable perspective. Caesar's goal is to take his nomadic army of ex-tribals, take over the NCR, and protect civilization with an iron fist. Assuming you think safety and civilization are good things, this is not an inherently bad goal. What's bad is that he and his soldiers have no regard for human life. The structure and the order are more important to him than the people themselves. The NCR, imperfect as it is, does at least have humanist values. It often fails to live up to them, and is responsible for atrocities, and does act primarily in its economic interest, and not in human interest... but it's still got those values somewhere. It may not sound like much, but it's clear what that means when you look at Caesar's Legion, which doesn't have those values at all. It's got no issue massacring towns to hurt enemy morale, or enslaving all women to make soldiers faster. These things wouldn't happen in the NCR so casually. CJacobs posted:Whoops, I didn't mean to inspire yet another "Caesar is a knowledgeable person because X" or "Caesar is a terrible leader because Y" discussion. This series of posts about how much I love Fallout did not turn out how I wanted them to at all! I'd agree that people certainly don't need to express quite so much moral outrage and hostility on the subject... but I still think it's really interesting.
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