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CJacobs posted:THINGS I misread your initial post. Sorry about that.
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Oct 31, 2011 08:35
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Sawyer also had a post where he said the Legion's grey, but intentionally a pretty dark grey. I think that's a fair way of looking at them. My impression is a lot of people never talked to Caesar or did the Legion playthrough, so they missed the complexities and just assumed the poo poo Lanius or some of the minor Legion characters say was what everyone in the Legion thinks. Once you talk to Caesar things get a lot more complicated.
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Oct 31, 2011 08:38
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Kharmakazy posted:I misread your initial post. Sorry about that. It's fine. To be honest, this kind of discussion is interesting to me because I get to see how other people play the game, not just myself! It's an admirable pursuit, thread equality, but it is unfortunately not without consequence (see: insulting each others' parents and threatening to spill cheesy poof dust on each others' keyboards). Me, I almost always go independent. Why just take down one faction when I can drive away all of them in one long con? 
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Oct 31, 2011 08:38
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I naturally always end up playing mentally disturbed, techno-fetishist, cannibal women. What does that mean if people (read: me) play based on ourselves? 
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Oct 31, 2011 08:54
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If my Fallout characters are based on me, I should be in prison.
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Oct 31, 2011 08:55
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Jerusalem posted:No no, you don't kill Vulpes when you first meet him. You loving CRIPPLE him. You blow his goddamn legs off with mines while stealthed, so the smug, murderous rear end in a top hat can limp his way out of Nipton having learned that he doesn't get to have things his own way and his Legion can't protect him. Let him drag his rear end across the desert back to Caesar, only to be told shortly after that the guy who did it to him is now protected from on high and he must go and pass on an invitation/forgiveness to him. Your method has style points for sure, but ultimately I'm more of a "kill as many Legion as fast as possible" kind of guy. Plus if you kill Vulpes, after spending several hours mascaraing Legion camps and blowing up Legion patrols, Caesar is still dumb enough to send an envoy to you, and that envoy is dumb enough to follow his mission! Hope you felt that bullet to the back of your head, dumbass. Grand Fromage posted:Once you talk to Caesar things get a lot more complicated. Not really. I understand Caesar to be the classic megalomaniac with martial prowess and a cult of personality. The fact that he can intellectualize his brutality doesn't make him different from other psychopathic tyrants from history. Call me crazy but I don't think even a nuclear apocalypse would convince me that what humanity needs is a fascist military dictatorship ruling everything.
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Oct 31, 2011 09:10
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CommanderCoffee posted:Caravans are safer in Legion territory than in NCR territory, because Caesar wants the economy to be powerful. You are really saying that well-protected caravans are awful? What economy? Legion is too busy going around pillaging and enslaving honest, hard-working folks to have or care about something like that. You expect those fuckers to suddenly start working in factories and offices? Just look at their gear. Weapons are crude and primitive, armor is pilfered from some sports-gear warehouse. Caesar can be as autocratic and hard on his minions as much as he wants to but his "society" doesn't have a long-term sustainability because it was forcibly unified by him. It's a house of cards. steady fucked around with this message at 09:22 on Oct 31, 2011 |
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Oct 31, 2011 09:20
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steady posted:What economy? Legion is too busy going around pillaging and enslaving honest, hard-working folks to have or care about something like that. Uh, the economy in which an Aureus is worth about 100 caps, and a Denarius, which is the lowest currency that the player knows of in Caesar's Legion, is worth 10 caps. Compared to the $100 NCR Buck being about 40 caps, well, either Caesar's economy is strong (due to the money being made out of precious metals, as opposed to backed by them), or the money has value due to its precious metal value. In any case, it's pretty much the most powerful economy in the Mojave wasteland when speaking in a pure unit-to-caps mentality.
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Oct 31, 2011 09:25
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Had a question about the "No Gods, No Masters" final battle. In my first playthrough, I started out as a NCR supporter, but the more I started to learn about them, the more I realized I didn't want them to rule the Mojave either. Nor the Legion. House might've been an option if I hadn't killed him while doing the NCR quests(oops), so Yes-Man was going to have to do. During the Battle of Hoover Dam, the NCR pretty much ignored my character and his robo-buddies, and I was able to keep up the charade through till the end of the battle. Really liked that. I'm just curious, what happens in the final battle if you're hated by the NCR and have a positiverelation with the Legion? Are you attacked by both factions, or will you actually be able to waltz past/fight besides all the Legion soldiers and attack Lanius without any resistance, or is it pretty much NCR/Legion vs. the Courier?
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Oct 31, 2011 09:41
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rvdleun posted:
I did this recently. I was vilified by NCR, Vilified by Legion. I was doing a role play as a courier who believed himself to be a Vietnam Vet, and used his signature Pancor Jackhammer do his talking. All his talking. Anyways, you talk to Yes Man, get sent to the battle, and the NCR ignores you because hey, Legion are attacking. Then you take down the Legion and finish up. So, no real difference.
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Oct 31, 2011 09:46
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steady posted:What economy? Legion is too busy going around pillaging and enslaving honest, hard-working folks to have or care about something like that. Presumably the economy is what all those slaves spend their time doing. What an at best early bronze-age civilization would have to trade when a moderately wealthy local power generally has lasers coming out his rear end and a full set of infinitely self-sustaining technomagical modern comforts I 'unno. CommanderCoffee posted:Uh, the economy in which an Aureus is worth about 100 caps, and a Denarius, which is the lowest currency that the player knows of in Caesar's Legion, is worth 10 caps. Compared to the $100 NCR Buck being about 40 caps, well, either Caesar's economy is strong (due to the money being made out of precious metals, as opposed to backed by them), or the money has value due to its precious metal value. In any case, it's pretty much the most powerful economy in the Mojave wasteland when speaking in a pure unit-to-caps mentality. Denarii are prized because they make the best shot, to be returned to their owners at high velocity 
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Oct 31, 2011 09:54
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CommanderCoffee posted:Uh, the economy in which an Aureus is worth about 100 caps, and a Denarius, which is the lowest currency that the player knows of in Caesar's Legion, is worth 10 caps. Compared to the $100 NCR Buck being about 40 caps, well, either Caesar's economy is strong (due to the money being made out of precious metals, as opposed to backed by them), or the money has value due to its precious metal value. In any case, it's pretty much the most powerful economy in the Mojave wasteland when speaking in a pure unit-to-caps mentality. That is not how an economy actually works. House wants the NCR next door because, despite the domestic currency being inflated(though they still work on bottle caps mostly), has massive wealth and economic growth that he can extracted from to build up his techno-industrial paradise. He can't do that with the Legion, at all. It is post-tribal, pseudo-agrarian war-driven economy with slave labor. It doesn't have excess wealth generation, it is barely self-sustainable. Compare that to the NCR that has expansionist corporations, and citizens and soldiers with enough excess capital to dump it into New Vegas. Legion has to be a Slave-labor driven Military Dictatorship in part because it simply can't afford to be a Bureaucratic Republic. Berk Berkly fucked around with this message at 09:58 on Oct 31, 2011 |
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Oct 31, 2011 09:56
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IIRC NCR's economy is three times larger but the Legion have stability for theirs (not really helped by the NCR taking a massive goddamn nosedive due to the Brotherhood loving their gold reserves). Also I'm late but approaching Boxcars with Vilified Powder Ganger reputation... "Are you loving kidding me? First I get my legs smashed, and then in walks the Powder Gangers' Grim loving Reaper! The gently caress you got against us man?!"
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Oct 31, 2011 09:58
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Boxcars says that to me even when I've got a good rep with them He's not fooled, he knows what's up
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Oct 31, 2011 10:00
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steady posted:What economy? Legion is too busy going around pillaging and enslaving honest, hard-working folks to have or care about something like that. If the Legion territory is poor, it's only because it was poor before Caesar came. It's hardly his structure that keeps things repressed. He's pretty clearly successfully promoted the economic development of his territory. Berk Berkly posted:He can't do that with the Legion, at all. It is post-tribal, pseudo-agrarian war-driven economy with slave labor. It doesn't have excess wealth generation, it is barely self-sustainable. Compare that to the NCR that has expansionist corporations, and citizens and soldiers with enough excess capital to dump it into New Vegas. Legion has to be a Slave-labor driven Military Dictatorship in part because it simply can't afford to be a Bureaucratic Republic. So far Caesar has established order in a sparsely developed largely tribal region. That's not his end game. He admits he basically just has a nomadic army. His goal is to establish that kind of order over the powerful economic and industrial structures the NCR has built. The point here being, Caesar is managing his economic affairs about as well as can be expected. The Legion has been good for the economy in areas it controls. It only looks bad next to the NCR because the NCR is so much older and more established. Eiba fucked around with this message at 10:12 on Oct 31, 2011 |
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Oct 31, 2011 10:09
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Wolfsheim posted:Those guys actually aren't 'just assholes': if you accept a quest from some random NCR dude at the Aerotech shacks, you find out that those two have been kidnapping people and selling them to the fiends, who proceed to rape/torture/etc them to death. Wait, what? WHAT?!  I've never had this info during my two playthroughs pushing 200 hours in total. I always assumed that i am going to end up putting a cap on their asses but never had any reason to do so. Next playthrough, the last thing they are going to see is a very,veryangry guy covered with bullet holes, burns and glowing green with mixture of radiation, cazador poison and raw gecko meat with a tire iron on his hand, screaming "I NEVER CHECKED THE AEOROTECH AREA BEFORE YOU loving ASSHOLES!"
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Oct 31, 2011 10:15
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Epileptic Nazi posted:So now that all the DLC is here it's time for me to replay! I completed the game back on release and left it to rot.. now I'm keen to play again and do one of these fancy Unarmed runs. Play Old World Blues. Heartless is loving awesome for an unarmed run. No poison when dealing up close and personal damage? Yes please. Also Super-Heated Saturnite fist wrecks poo poo up, but get a zap glove for all the robots that wont go down to it.
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Oct 31, 2011 10:18
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CJacobs posted:My other point is that this is one of the reasons I love Fallout in general: People play based on themselves even if they don't realize it. It may sound like some 11th grade psychology poo poo, but it's like a real life situation: Some people will inherently side with Legion, some will side with NCR, and the majority will just say "no gods no masters" and take over Vegas for themselves. Gimmick runs aside, anyone who has learned anything about either faction (read: read some articles on the fallout wiki) will form their own opinion on who to side with, and siding with the other faction will become the subject of their "do this just to try it" run. Your other point is interesting, if a bit true. Anyone who has roleplayed for a longer period of time knows it is true, you can not divorce everything from your subconsciousness from your character. You can change major things, surely. You can shoot people one time, side with one faction one time and a different one another, you can specialize in melee weapons one time and energy weapons another. But for any outside observer, they can tell there is something you do in every one of those play-throughs that they do not. Maybe it's in how well you know the game-system and will intentionally game the system to give himself advantages a truly new player would not. Maybe it's how good you are at directions or recognizing landmarks, despite making a character with low perception and intelligence. The companions you chose based purely on their performance. Incessant reloading. Tiny things. Things that ultimately do not matters maybe, but still would have been played differently by twenty different people. And as your point is about, how some people feel naturally drawn to the NCR. I think ropekid once said Scandinavians would find more in common with Mr. House and indeed, I keep getting drawn back to his faction over the NCR, whom I do not like at all and do not feel very drawn towards helping. I don't know who feel drawn towards the Legion, because we encounter them when they are at their absolute worst and are presented as an absolutely unacceptable faction to most sane individuals. It's a shame, but it makes me wish there was a fourth faction that were evil, but against the Legion as well.
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Oct 31, 2011 10:20
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I love the Legion conversations because it always brings out the people who go "Hm, yes, rape camps, but have you considered that raped women produce babies? Let it not be said we failed to examine both sides of the argument" and puff sagely on their bubble pipes
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Oct 31, 2011 10:30
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Dammit Who? posted:I love the Legion conversations because it always brings out the people who go "Hm, yes, rape camps, but have you considered that raped women produce babies? Let it not be said we failed to examine both sides of the argument" and puff sagely on their bubble pipes Well those extra babies provide highly valuable cannon fodder for your ultra-macho army that is lead to believe charging headlong into concentrated fire and snipers with melee weapons is the only manly thing to do. That, and are taught that suicide is a perfectly acceptable solution to losing a battle instead of retreating. Let it not be said we haven't properly leveraged our human resources to the max.
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Oct 31, 2011 10:36
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i last played vegas sometime not long after dead money came out. it was sorta enjoyable [i remember everyone saying they loved it, reading bits of this thread looks like people no longer have the same sentiment] but i just ended up stopping halfway through are the new dlcs any good/worth whatever they cost? is dead money worth finishing?
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Oct 31, 2011 10:47
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Dammit Who? posted:I love the Legion conversations because it always brings out the people who go "Hm, yes, rape camps, but have you considered that raped women produce babies? Let it not be said we failed to examine both sides of the argument" and puff sagely on their bubble pipes It made more sense 2000 years ago. The legion is pretty much civilization regressing 3000 years, from a moral and sociological stand-point. ... Well, I say that, but for all I know, this might just take place somewhere on Earth today. And that makes me depressed. 
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Oct 31, 2011 10:50
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Francois Kofko posted:i last played vegas sometime not long after dead money came out. it was sorta enjoyable [i remember everyone saying they loved it, reading bits of this thread looks like people no longer have the same sentiment] but i just ended up stopping halfway through Of course DM is worth finishing. I mean, you are supposed to take your time and engross yourself into the characters and over-arching narrative that gives you a big payoff at the end. Literally. The other DLC are all different. OWB is hilarious and pure Sci-Fi pulpy goodness. LR is a grim, tough adventure with lots of unique environmental exploration, awesome weapons/armor/items. HH is a bit of a change of pace. Lots of lush area to explore, but the narrative is a bit lackluster, most of the meat of the experience is in the environment/back-story. My recommendation always includes OWBs, then LR, and then HH in order of "what I would buy other than DM."
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Oct 31, 2011 10:55
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yeah, i didn't make it into the sierra madre before i just got kinda bored of the game. i assume that's where it really comes into it's own, b/c the outside quests were fairly boring e: just checked steam w/r/t dlc. i assume the 'w/e pack' dlcs are just adding weapons and such, right? i can't imagine they actually add anything of value fronz fucked around with this message at 11:00 on Oct 31, 2011 |
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Oct 31, 2011 10:58
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Mordaedil posted:What about those who side with Mr. House? Did ropekid give a reason for that comment? As a Scandinavian, I find that eerie, because I was all about House until he went all anti-Brotherhood and I done killed him dead (I don't care what any of the haters say, I've been down with the BoS since I played Fallout 1 as a kid ), and yet he really doesn't strike me as being particularly Scandinavian or possessing Scandinavian characteristics or values. Why would he appeal particularly to us?
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Oct 31, 2011 11:02
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Zodium posted:Did ropekid give a reason for that comment? As a Scandinavian, I find that eerie, because I was all about House until he went all anti-Brotherhood and I done killed him dead (I don't care what any of the haters say, I've been down with the BoS since I played Fallout 1 as a kid He might have just been leaning on the law of averages with a bit of foreknowledge and maybe the fact the other factions or methods would be even less appealing. quote:yeah, i didn't make it into the sierra madre before i just got kinda bored of the game. i assume that's where it really comes into it's own, b/c the outside quests were fairly boring Gun Runners is actually considered worth it for the variety and goodies it adds to the core game. It gives the non-DLC content more pep to keep up with the DLC goodness and some amusing additions. Courier's Stash though is just plain spoilery, not worth it. Also, the quests in DM are there mainly to help you establish a connection with the other characters to help drive home their follow up/conclusions inside, as well as bring everything to a boil-over climax at the end with a fleshed out perspective if you pay attention.
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Oct 31, 2011 11:15
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Zodium posted:Did ropekid give a reason for that comment? As a Scandinavian, I find that eerie, because I was all about House until he went all anti-Brotherhood and I done killed him dead (I don't care what any of the haters say, I've been down with the BoS since I played Fallout 1 as a kid I don't remember word for word what he said, and I don't recall what thread he said it in, sadly. Though he does read this thread, so maybe he remembers what he said. It could have been in an interview as well.
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Oct 31, 2011 11:28
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steady posted:Just look at their gear. Weapons are crude and primitive, armor is pilfered from some sports-gear warehouse. Caesar's weaponry is primitive because it's manufactured by the Legion, rather than being scavenged from Old World ruins. You can see a guy making Legion Machetes at Fortification Hill. As for the rest of the economy, apparently the Legion's trade networks are far more reliable (and probably profitable) than the NCR's. Compare Cass' stories about being pretty much totally on her own to the trader at Fortification Hill, who when you ask about bandits he's like "Bitch, please. I'm trading under the Legion's colors; nobody fucks with me."
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Oct 31, 2011 11:30
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Defiance Industries posted:Caesar's weaponry is primitive because it's manufactured by the Legion, rather than being scavenged from Old World ruins. You can see a guy making Legion Machetes at Fortification Hill. Actually, it is just the opposite. Legion scavenges from both the Old World and from defeated foes(Centurion Armor). They have some minor smithing abilities, but it is literally medieval in nature. The NCR by contrast has an industrial base making both military hardware, medical supplies, and is building a consumer economy at home. The only thing keeping them from over-running the Mojave is the Divide. Otherwise they would have literally rail-roaded right into New Vegas and Hoover. quote:As for the rest of the economy, apparently the Legion's trade networks are far more reliable (and probably profitable) than the NCR's. Compare Cass' stories about being pretty much totally on her own to the trader at Fortification Hill, who when you ask about bandits he's like "Bitch, please. I'm trading under the Legion's colors; nobody fucks with me." Notice those are small time traders making a living, and not businesses/corporations like the Gun Runners, Van Graffs, and Crimson Caravans. Yes, Legion side is safer, but also much more poor. Again, this is why House wants to be buddy(but not tooo buddy) with NCR so he can use the power of Vegas to extract wealth of the NCR into his pocket.
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Oct 31, 2011 11:40
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Defiance Industries posted:Caesar's weaponry is primitive because it's manufactured by the Legion, rather than being scavenged from Old World ruins. You can see a guy making Legion Machetes at Fortification Hill. Sharpening a piece of lawnmower blade and crudely strapping a wood tool handle on it doesn't really create a huge distinction between manufacturing and scavenging. At that point you might as well say they're "manufacturing" their crosses, someone had to move 'em all into one place like that and stick a dude to 'em. The only people who engage in any visible industry beyond "duct-tape Thing A to Thing B" or crude agriculture are the Gunrunners and the NCR, who still never deviate from old-world blueprints, hell the only evidence of new raw materials production in the entire... series I think is that one automated steel factory and the vague implication that the gunrunners are somehow smelting sniper rifles out of crushed soup cans. Tubgirl Cosplay fucked around with this message at 13:44 on Oct 31, 2011 |
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Oct 31, 2011 13:42
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Question: Will regular mods (like the Fat Man Little Boy Kit) work on Gun Runner's Arsenal weapons (like Fat Man [GRA])? Also, Ropekid: Whoever came up with the idea to include a shitload of easily legitimately obtainable variety ammo for the Fat Man is a certifiable genius. Esther (and to a lesser extent Greased Lightning) managed to totally change the way I wanted to play the game nearly a year after I started playing it.
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Oct 31, 2011 14:22
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Father Wendigo posted:Question: Will regular mods (like the Fat Man Little Boy Kit) work on Gun Runner's Arsenal weapons (like Fat Man [GRA])? Nope, only GRA mods will go on GRA weapons, and regular mods on regular weapons. There's no crossover.
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Oct 31, 2011 14:27
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Dush posted:Nope, only GRA mods will go on GRA weapons, and regular mods on regular weapons. There's no crossover.  One more question: do companions get any of the benefits of mods?
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Oct 31, 2011 14:45
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i just realized the one thing i'd have wanted dlc most of: rising to the top with benny benny was the best character in the whole game :[
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Oct 31, 2011 14:51
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Dush posted:Nope, only GRA mods will go on GRA weapons, and regular mods on regular weapons. There's no crossover.
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Oct 31, 2011 16:32
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First playthrough of any Fallout game right now, I am loving it. I have some questions though. First, how the hell do I get into the Boomer's town? I got the page from the guy with the instructions but I am still getting the poo poo blown out of me every time. Second, I got Benny up to the penthouse alone to talk. Could I have blown his head off with the silenced .22 hidden on me? I just want to know, I wish I had tried but I've done too much since that save to go back and I am enjoying living with the consequences of what I do. This game does a great job of making you feel like your decisions have a real impact.
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Oct 31, 2011 17:51
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robot roll call posted:First playthrough of any Fallout game right now, I am loving it. I have some questions though. First, how the hell do I get into the Boomer's town? I got the page from the guy with the instructions but I am still getting the poo poo blown out of me every time.  ) but if you are referring to the NCRCR facility, i think you have to hug the hills next to the entrance not try to push from the fences.You can cap Benny even before getting into the suit by sniping his smug rear end from the Tops entrance but yes you can shoot him in balls, punch his head clean off or stick a poolcue up his rear end in the suit but i strongly urge you not to do it because trust me, it leads to a much entertaining story. Edit: Argh i confused Boomers with Powder Gangers. I always hug the outcrop on your left if you approach from the highway (there is a guy trying to sell you the safe zone info). Just hug the outcrop, use a Med-X just in case and run like hell, worked for me everytime. Galewolf fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Oct 31, 2011 |
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Oct 31, 2011 17:57
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robot roll call posted:First playthrough of any Fallout game right now, I am loving it. I have some questions though. First, how the hell do I get into the Boomer's town? I got the page from the guy with the instructions but I am still getting the poo poo blown out of me every time. If you can handle the locks, take the train tunnel. From there you can make it right to the fence with little/no damage if you run like gently caress. Otherwise just do what the man says and take cover, keeping in mind it won't always work. That bombardment is a pain in the dick. Yeah you can just pop Benny, in fact you can pretty much deal with him at around starting level if you're speedrunning it. The .22 is kinda a waste of time, and I'd hate to actually have to rely on it in a fight, but still it should do the job. Tubgirl Cosplay fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Oct 31, 2011 |
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Oct 31, 2011 17:59
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If you've got any turbo I think you can just take some of that and sprint over to the fence as quickly as possible, they stop shelling you when you're at the fence. Or you can duck behind a building while about eleven shells land around you and then run for it.
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Oct 31, 2011 18:01
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CommanderCoffee posted:In any case, it's pretty much the most powerful economy in the Mojave wasteland when speaking in a pure unit-to-caps mentality. Economists do not measure the strength of an economy by its currency exchange rate. This is unlikely to tell you the long-run productive capacity of the economy. Mordaedil posted:It made more sense 2000 years ago. The legion is pretty much civilization regressing 3000 years, from a moral and sociological stand-point. This is exactly why I cannot support the Legion. NCR is trying to return to the 20th century model of a democratic capitalist system, and it's running into many of the same problems with a wasteland twist. Legion on the other hand wants to return to that sunshiney time when people were kept as slaves, women were given as property to military commanders, and some bald dude ruled over everyone because he told them he's the son of a god.
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Oct 31, 2011 18:05
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