|
10-8 posted:I gave serious thought to FBI a while back and was deterred by how horrible the odds are for lawyers. The FBI doesn't give a poo poo about lawyers right now. They want Middle Eastern and Asian foreign languages and computer science people. Also, when I was looking into this, I seem to recall that they wouldn't even look at you until you'd been out of school for 3 years. So presumably he'd have to make a living actually practicing law while he waits to redeem his lottery ticket. What about lawyers who speak Middle Eastern and Asian languages????
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2011 07:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 06:36 |
|
|
10-8 posted:I gave serious thought to FBI a while back and was deterred by how horrible the odds are for lawyers. The FBI doesn't give a poo poo about lawyers right now. They want Middle Eastern and Asian foreign languages and computer science people. Also, when I was looking into this, I seem to recall that they wouldn't even look at you until you'd been out of school for 3 years. So presumably he'd have to make a living actually practicing law while he waits to redeem his lottery ticket. All of this matches my experience applying to the FBI. Especially the foreign language part.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2011 08:27
|
|
|
MayakovskyMarmite posted:Do people have any general advice about headhunters/lateraling? If it is any help, I have bottom half of the curve grades from a T-10 and a couple years at a very niche litigation boutique.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2011 09:32
|
|
|
gret posted:IIRC Baruch is a patent examiner, so I doubt he'd be allowed to practice patent law while simultaneously working at the PTO. Yeah, they kinda look poorly at that.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2011 19:35
|
|
|
I have a quick question to determine how strigent the T14 or bust attitude is around here. Say I could attend Duke for $33,000 a year (after all types of scholarships, grants, and aid etc are figured out). Say I could also attend UNC for $8,000 a year (after the same stuff). UNC may not be T14 but it does seem to be respectable at top 30, and it seems like the (hypothetical) $75,000 saved over the three years would make it the better choice, but I'm curious how far the T14 or bust mentality really previals. These numbers do not completely accurately reflect my upcoming situation but the general principle will be the same. Yes, I know the truly correct answer is to not go to law school at all. e: Also, I am aware of the dangers of some scholarship stipulations that say you need to finish in the top 50% of your class etc and how that can screw you. Just for the purpose of this example, assume the number figures are hard and there are no stipulations.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2011 21:11
|
|
|
I don't know what the post-graduation employment figures are at Duke (some recent Duke Law alums ITT can fill you in on this; I don't think we have any UNC Law goons), but the biggest clincher in deciding where to go is what school will give you the best opportunity to get a job. You could be a stellar law student (with an accompaniment of a hefty load of luck), or completely poo poo at it--there's no real way to determine at this point in the game. So, notwithstanding the student rank roulette, the biggest thing that will help you with your job prospects (and therefore your ability to pay off whatever loans you take out; not to mention your ability to have at least some sort of discretion in steering your career) is your school's name recognition. While the name on your diploma may not matter 5 years into working (though maybe it will), it does matter in terms of getting your first job or two, and that depends upon your school. What I'm saying is, is that I would take 33k/year T14 over 8k/year T30. In a heartbeat. If you're a great law student, 10x as many doors will open up for you when coming from Duke than coming from UNC. If you're a poo poo law student, you'll have a solid name to cover your rear end. Plus I think all of the T14 help out with loan repayments on a much better scale than T30 in general--if you even need it, depending upon the job you get. Green Crayons fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Dec 11, 2011 |
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2011 21:44
|
|
|
Petey posted:Hey does anyone here have any expertise of the literature surrounding the slow deterioration of Tinker as a standard for off-campus speech? Just cite-check Morse v. Frederick. Whatever there is, will be in that list. But Morse really doesn't agree with your dichotomy at all. Morse sets up 'at-school' and 'not at school' as a threshold level-of-scrutiny test and then turns to the Hazelwood/Fraser 'reasonable interests of the school' test. Plus it sounds like you're going to try and first establish that 'cyberspeech' constitutes a distinct category which I seriously doubt. Also the idea that there is any consistency in the student speech rulings at all is a joke, every single holding is an island onto itself.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2011 21:48
|
|
|
Makochuk posted:I have a quick question to determine how strigent the T14 or bust attitude is around here. Say I could attend Duke for $33,000 a year (after all types of scholarships, grants, and aid etc are figured out). Say I could also attend UNC for $8,000 a year (after the same stuff). UNC may not be T14 but it does seem to be respectable at top 30, and it seems like the (hypothetical) $75,000 saved over the three years would make it the better choice, but I'm curious how far the T14 or bust mentality really previals. These numbers do not completely accurately reflect my upcoming situation but the general principle will be the same. Unless you want to practice in NC, there's virtually no reason to take UNC over Duke. AS BEST I CAN TELL, if you want to practice in NC (and only NC), it might be an okay idea to take UNC over Duke. They place about the same in the rest of the south (Texas, Florida, and Virginia aren't included in this; they're a little more complicated). [EDIT: Outside of NC, some of this is just Duke students not applying to jobs in, say, Alabama.] Within North Carolina, Duke students are on about the same footing as UNC students--Duke students have to actually make an effort to persuade the locals that they're locals, too, but there's a lot less competition from their peers. Have you visited both? If you come on a Friday after winter break I'll probably be the tour guide here.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2011 22:21
|
|
|
Unless you want to work in biglaw, I'd take the money.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2011 23:25
|
|
|
Makochuk posted:I have a quick question to determine how strigent the T14 or bust attitude is around here. Say I could attend Duke for $33,000 a year (after all types of scholarships, grants, and aid etc are figured out). Say I could also attend UNC for $8,000 a year (after the same stuff). UNC may not be T14 but it does seem to be respectable at top 30, and it seems like the (hypothetical) $75,000 saved over the three years would make it the better choice, but I'm curious how far the T14 or bust mentality really previals. These numbers do not completely accurately reflect my upcoming situation but the general principle will be the same. Go to the highest rank school you can. By going to law school you're already selling your soul, so any financial savings you'll make from one school to the next is chickenshit by comparison.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2011 23:57
|
|
|
fougera posted:Unless you want to work in biglaw, I'd take the money. Duke (like all the T14) has better relationships with federal agencies and federal judges, better LRAP, broader placement geographically (at all levels of private and public employment), and a better basketball team. UNC has significantly better relationships with NC state government (especially prosecutors), somewhat better relationships with NC federal government (not so much the federal defender, but otherwise they're a step ahead), and some people like Chapel Hill better than Durham. If you want anything other than NC government or NC midlaw/small law, Duke is just a better choice. EDIT: I'm going out on a limb and saying UNC probably has better parking, a better cafeteria, and better grade turnaround. Sulecrist fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Dec 12, 2011 |
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2011 00:20
|
|
|
Also if you already have a job lined up that you'd like through an employer or a close relative, take the money, but that's kind of obvious and I assume it isn't your situation.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2011 00:48
|
|
|
Petey posted:Hey does anyone here have any expertise of the literature surrounding the slow deterioration of Tinker as a standard for off-campus speech? Hey Petey I don't know poo poo about lawyerin but if you are writing an article about this stuff I hope you cite the bonghits4jesus case.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2011 01:49
|
|
|
Makochuk posted:I have a quick question to determine how strigent the T14 or bust attitude is around here. Say I could attend Duke for $33,000 a year (after all types of scholarships, grants, and aid etc are figured out). Say I could also attend UNC for $8,000 a year (after the same stuff). Duke sounds awesome and despite a couple spots in rank I would have taken it over Berkeley (Duke didn't let me in). Go to Duke.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2011 02:29
|
|
|
A friend from undergrad who went to a T20 law school just updated her Facebook status: "Yesterday I watched a yacht parade. From a yacht. Where I got paid for serving nice ladies wine and cheese." Don't go, no jobs.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2011 02:38
|
|
|
Mort posted:Hey Petey I don't know poo poo about lawyerin but if you are writing an article about this stuff I hope you cite the bonghits4jesus case. I mean definitely. Copernicus I'm on my phone but i will PM you later.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2011 03:14
|
|
|
Sulecrist posted:Duke (like all the T14) has better relationships with federal agencies and federal judges, better LRAP, broader placement geographically (at all levels of private and public employment), and a better basketball team. UNC has significantly better relationships with NC state government (especially prosecutors), somewhat better relationships with NC federal government (not so much the federal defender, but otherwise they're a step ahead), and some people like Chapel Hill better than Durham. If you want anything other than NC government or NC midlaw/small law, Duke is just a better choice. All of this is pretty accurate except the part about cafeteria and parking. Also, the part he's not really considering, that he should, is the non-tuition part of it. We're not talking about 24k versus 99k, we're talking like 90k versus 160k. Most recent Duke grads are employed, and most recent UNC grads aren't. That simple.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2011 03:30
|
|
|
HiddenReplaced posted:All of this is pretty accurate except the part about cafeteria and parking. We're talking about $8k versus $33k. But yeah, my comments about cafeteria and parking were out of ignorance--apparently UNC's are more absent than ours. EDIT: ours suck
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2011 04:44
|
|
|
Sulecrist posted:We're talking about $8k versus $33k. But yeah, my comments about cafeteria and parking were out of ignorance--apparently UNC's are more absent than ours. I thought he was saying it would be 8k per year at UNC and 33k at Duke. So for all three years it would be those numbers I posted (well more, because tuition will go up), and then you add the cost of living on to that and other random expenses and the numbers are much closer to each other than 8 is to 33.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2011 05:57
|
|
|
HiddenReplaced posted:I thought he was saying it would be 8k per year at UNC and 33k at Duke. So for all three years it would be those numbers I posted (well more, because tuition will go up), and then you add the cost of living on to that and other random expenses and the numbers are much closer to each other than 8 is to 33. please visit i'm really loving hungry and i miss you
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2011 06:17
|
|
|
Visited #lawgoons a year ago as a ug senior with a 163/3.85, told not to go, no jobs. Ended up turning down BU @ 10k a year, which I originally thought to be an awesome deal. I really appreciate the advice I got from you guys - thank you so much. Now I sit with a 172/3.85. I have a job as a staffer in a state rep's office, and although it's been a good experience so far, I don't think I want to stay in politics for the long haul. I've hit every school in the T14 this cycle, and with any luck, I should get some pretty good results. The numbers say I have a coin flip shot at Stanford and should hit one of Columbia/Chicago/NYU and hopefully MVP w/ $$$. I realize I may get into some good schools here, but I credit SA with schooling me on how tenuous going to law school is no matter what school you're going to. What was once "hell yeah! I'm off to become a barrister!" has now turned into, "hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm." So I ask humbly before the lawgoon council again: Do I stay or do I go?
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2011 07:24
|
|
|
If you get into Stanford, want to be in California and have a good, solid plan as to why you want to go to law school, it wouldn't be the worst thing on earth. Stanford has almost Yale like sway out here. Seriously though, why law school? I don't like politics isn't an answer.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2011 07:28
|
|
|
Here's my explanation, but before you guys jump all over me I want to preface it: please please PLEASE realize that I am not going to jump into law school unless I'm getting into a school where 1) debt isn't a terribly overwhelming consideration (HYS) or 2) a T14 with a very good scholly. I've turned down law school before (following your advice), and I'll do it again if need be. I am terribly debt adverse. So having said that here's the explanation: (a really good) law school strikes me a good place to hedge my bets. If not for the even more abysmal placement rates in academia, I probably would have gone the PhD route for History (although I've found myself enjoying legal scholarship more than historical scholarship recently). If I can graduate from a top 3 law school or a top 14 law school with little to no debt, I could look at doing one a few things: Plan A: Clerkship --> Firm Job --> Academia (I know the odds are against me big time here, but they would be against me at a PhD program too, and with law school at least I have a somewhat palatable fallback rather than become a freelance writer/high school teacher as a failed PhD student) Plan B #1: With a lower debt load, I'd be really interested in public interest practice. I interned at a non-profit legal services clinic, and I really respect that side of the legal field. Plan B #2: Take my shiny law degree and head back to the government, use the degree as an in, work my way up more, and maybe become a lobbyist? (This is why I'm unsure if I want to stay in politics: the end game here to me is probably more unsavory than big firm lawyer to me) Plan C: BigLaw, MidLaw, Scatlaw (I know BigLaw is a rather uncertain backup plan, but again I'm probably only going to law school if I'm either getting into a school where debt isn't an overwhelming consideration (HYS) or a T14 w/ $.) Big Slammu fucked around with this message at 08:22 on Dec 12, 2011 |
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2011 08:09
|
|
|
Big Slammu posted:Here's my explanation, but before you guys jump all over me I want to preface it: please please PLEASE realize that I am not going to jump into law school unless I'm getting into a school where 1) debt isn't a terribly overwhelming consideration (HYS) or 2) a T14 with a very good scholly. I've turned down law school before (following your advice), and I'll do it again if need be. I am terribly debt adverse. http://leiterrankings.com/new/2011_LawTeachers.shtml. If you get into Yale, and think you'll be top 10% (hint: 172/3.85? You probably won't be top 10%), AND like to write, a lot, then you might, might, MIGHT be able to wind up a teacher. (No one in government gives a gently caress about your law degree unless you want to work in one of the legal policy areas - if you're interested in doing econ work, or health, or anything outside of judiciary issues, a law degree ain't that helpful.) If you get into HYS, yeah, okay, consider it, you'll probably get a job (in a field you have no interest in working in according to your post). If you get into a T14 and a full ride, I suppose you can consider it even though you're still going to walk out owing 50-70k between living expenses and bar costs. But you keep saying things that amount to "I don't want to be a lawyer", so, I'd take your own advice. (In my gov't office there are two different grads of T14s who don't have jobs and are on 6 month fellowships from their schools. Don't assume a T14 is a good plan right now - it might be better by the time you get out, but it also really might not.)
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2011 08:24
|
|
|
Just a warning, plenty of law schools are very unfriendly to people who have practiced in big firms and want to move into a teaching position.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2011 08:45
|
|
|
Deep down inside my wretched and defeated soul, I'm hoping I'll fail my exams so I won't have to be a lawyer.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2011 08:47
|
|
|
Big Slammu posted:Plan A: Clerkship --> Firm Job --> Academia (I know the odds are against me big time here, but they would be against me at a PhD program too, and with law school at least I have a somewhat palatable fallback rather than become a freelance writer/high school teacher as a failed PhD student) This is so bizarre without first stepping foot in law school but whatever, some advice: unless you plan on having an absolutely stellar career you have about five years, tops, after you graduate to enter the meat market and be taken seriously. Really it's closer to three. Enter the market with publications and a niche. FYI the order is Yale (big gap), Stanford, Harvard, (big gap) Chicago and Berkeley as your top five placers but really after YHS it depends on scholarship and where you go means little (in regards to top ten schools). These are very hard jobs to get. quote:Plan B #1: With a lower debt load, I'd be really interested in public interest practice. I interned at a non-profit legal services clinic, and I really respect that side of the legal field. Why would debt load matter when any decent school has loan forgiveness for this kind of work? PI can be cool but it's not a fallback at all. These are very hard jobs to get quote:Plan B #2: Take my shiny law degree and head back to the government, use the degree as an in, work my way up more, and maybe become a lobbyist? (This is why I'm unsure if I want to stay in politics: the end game here to me is probably more unsavory than big firm lawyer to me) Government jobs are very hard to get. quote:Plan C: BigLaw, MidLaw, Scatlaw (I know BigLaw is a rather uncertain backup plan, but again I'm probably only going to law school if I'm either getting into a school where debt isn't an overwhelming consideration (HYS) or a T14 w/ $.) These are very hard jobs to get.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2011 09:31
|
|
|
interrodactyl posted:Just a warning, plenty of law schools are very unfriendly to people who have practiced in big firms and want to move into a teaching position. This isn't entirely accurate. The hatred has nothing to do with firm size, it has to do with going into private practice in the first place when they would have liked you to hit the ground running with articles early in your career. So they'll look at a mid level associate and often say gently caress off, too late - but whether that associate was at Wachtell or Tom, Dick and Harry LLP isn't the focus of the inquiry. E: FWIW a lot of the young hires at Boalt have practiced but did so for no more than two years, not even testing the outer bounds of the five year idea that I'm lifting from Leiter. I'm also a guy who is giving serious thought to trying to do this - my schedule is pretty rigid every semester (writing seminar, business law class, con law-ish class, class with PhDs - I'm making an exception next semester for Evidence since everyone says it's such a bitch to learn cold for the bar). sigmachiev fucked around with this message at 11:37 on Dec 12, 2011 |
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2011 11:30
|
|
|
Street sharks guy, people in this thread are being pessimistic about your chance of getting a job in legal academia. They aren't being pessimistic enough. You need to proceed under the assumption that it's completely and quite literally impossible to get one, because it is. I want to ask what you think your options are staying with the state rep's office. Where does a job like that ultimately go? I ask because there really is no better time than now to continue delaying to go to law school, and because I'm curious.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2011 12:17
|
|
|
Just for a comparability thing: if you want to teach, you basically want to get an appellate clerkship AND a Ph.D. If you do that, you're a reasonable candidate. If not, hope you get a SCOTUS clerkship. That's not an exaggeration - go look at the number of professors under age 40, even at lower tier schools, who did not clerk and do not have a Ph.D. and did not go to Yale. It's essentially zero. You need two of those three markers, and even then you have a better shot at finding a job with a history Ph.D. as compared to being a law prof. (Jobs with state reps, assuming he's currently a staff assistant, go: staff assistant, legislative correspondent, legislative aide, sr legislative aide, legislative director, chief of staff. If you have a law degree, you can be a counsel/chief counsel instead of an LA/LD. At any point after LA, you can usually break off and go into government affairs/lobbying for either private practice or non-profits, though that's more common for national positions. Titles may vary from chamber to chamber - those titles are the ones I'm familiar with from the US Senate.)
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2011 14:48
|
|
|
Yet another all-nighter frantically trying to do all the readings I didn't do during the semester on the night before an exam. Finals made me realize pretty quick that if I actually did the readings before each class, at the end of the term I'd only have to put in like 3 hours studying for each exam. Why couldn't I have come to this realization a month ago  Either that or I need to find some quality CANs, but all the ones I've been able to find are rear end-terrible, even compared to what I manage to hastily throw together 5 hours before the exam starts.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2011 15:04
|
|
|
People really like saying "The job prospects for PhDs are even worse," but if you want to go into academia, my impression is that if you actually do get into a top 5, maybe top 10 PhD program in your field, your chances of ending up a professor are pretty good. It's just getting in that's hard; but you could try that. Really even if you go to a top 20 PhD program in your area, I think your chances of becoming a professor are better than if you went even to Yale, and we already know your chances of getting into Yale are tiny. Butter up some PhD program professors. Edit: Also I have a Contracts exam in 45 minutes worth 100% of my grade in that class. If I wanted to be a professor from here at Northwestern I'd have to pretty much make sure I get an average of an A on all of these exams so I could end up in the top 5% of a class full of previously successful people who averaged at the 98th percentile on the LSAT and studied ridiculously hard for these exams and all read Getting to Maybe and poo poo like that, and then I'd have a small chance of maybe ending up a professor at Northwestern itself. Edit 2: "Pretty good" for PhD could even mean 20% (though I think it's a lot higher for those top programs) and still mean your chances are much, much better than at Harvard or Stanford, and much better than at Yale. MoFauxHawk fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Dec 12, 2011 |
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2011 15:15
|
|
|
Sulecrist posted:please visit i'm really loving hungry and i miss you Considering coming up for this, which, for some reason is going to Durham, but not Atlanta: http://www.bringitonmusical.com/ MoFauxHawk posted:If I wanted to be a professor from here at Northwestern I'd have to pretty much make sure I get an average of an A on all of these exams so I could end up in the top 5% of a class full of previously successful people who averaged at the 98th percentile on the LSAT and studied ridiculously hard for these exams and all read Getting to Maybe and poo poo like that, and then I'd have a small chance of maybe ending up a professor at Northwestern itself. Or Chicago-Kent!
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2011 15:27
|
|
|
A 172 is a coinflip shot to Stanford?
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2011 16:02
|
|
|
.
Stop fucked around with this message at 05:52 on Jan 30, 2013 |
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2011 17:59
|
|
|
I've come across an early Christmas present for the prospective class of 2015. Here's an excerpt, but really, you should read the whole thing: http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2011/12/an-early-christmas-present-for-the-prospective-law-school-class-of-2015 quote:... You probably shouldn't go to law school. tau fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Dec 12, 2011 |
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2011 18:41
|
|
|
Kalman posted:Just for a comparability thing: if you want to teach, you basically want to get an appellate clerkship AND a Ph.D. If you do that, you're a reasonable candidate. If not, hope you get a SCOTUS clerkship. That's not an exaggeration - go look at the number of professors under age 40, even at lower tier schools, who did not clerk and do not have a Ph.D. and did not go to Yale. It's essentially zero. You need two of those three markers, and even then you have a better shot at finding a job with a history Ph.D. as compared to being a law prof. And, having dipped my toe in the clerkship process, let me tell you: it is insane. It is utterly, completely, batshit crazy. The entire thing depends on getting just the right kind of connections and no small amount of luck, and you will be competing against some of the biggest adderall-popping lunatics that this country has to offer. The best part is: even if, somehow, everything goes your way, and you really ARE that special snowflake who is able to get things to fall just right for you to get that perfect clerkship/academia swing...remember those crazy people? They are now your co-workers. That being said, law professor seems like a sweet gig, if you don't mind interacting with legal academics for your entire career. I can only imagine a group more socially awkward than that bunch.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2011 19:07
|
|
|
MechaFrogzilla posted:And, having dipped my toe in the clerkship process, let me tell you: it is insane. It is utterly, completely, batshit crazy. The entire thing depends on getting just the right kind of connections and no small amount of luck, and you will be competing against some of the biggest adderall-popping lunatics that this country has to offer. But yeah, even of the last generation, these people went to t14s and were the top, appellate clerkships, phds, and a couple of scotus people. Very few did firm work, but more than do now. That said, a lot of them are of counsels now. That's money.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2011 19:16
|
|
|
nm posted:Knowing people who are law profs and admin at law schools from t14 to ttt, once you get tenure it is basically the sweetest gig ever. You can't get fire. Pay and benes are amazing. Free time. Don't want to get up in the morning? No morning classes. Get to spurge out on whatever you think is interesting (Contracts and Han Solo? Sure, why not?). Lawyer & Law School Megathread #13: it is basically the sweetest gig ever. You can't get fire.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2011 19:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 06:36 |
|
|
...because you live outside in the rain I'm definitely behind the "my wife left me yesterday, and today I billed 15 hours" one though.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2011 19:35
|
|
