SlothfulCobra posted:

The reason I called punishing failure with death "the bad-guy thing" is because I have literally never seen or heard of that except for in movies and books when they want to show off just how mustache-twirlingly evil the bad guy is supposed to be. Not the sort of thing I'd expect from a man who used his education to take over a tribe, mold it to his whims, and went on to develop plans for the future based on grandiose dreams of emulating a long-dead civilization.

quote:

The level of bloodlust implied in the crazy deathcount that the Legion leaves everywhere it goes doesn't seem to me like the sort of thing that makes for good spy material. Hell, abstaining from any drugs doesn't seem like good spy material, since every society drinks; just round up the suspects who abstain from alcohol or stimpacks and you could find spies that way.

Ardennes posted:

That said, it is a pity your choice is: a corrupt liberal democracy, ultra-reactionaries/fascists and basically a technocratic-plutocracy that is dis-interested in 90% of the population. I guess every option has to be "bad" in some way, but too bad you couldn't pick some type of communal direct democracy... I guess Yes Man is the closest your going to get.

Cream-of-Plenty posted:

Harold should have shown up inexplicably (again). Bow to the forces of New Oasis! Unite New Vegas' disenfranchised outer districts, and use Clayton Etienne as your sergeant-at-arms in enforcing Co-op law. Steal the secrets from Vault 22 and harness the hydraulic powers of Hoover Dam to terrorize the Mojave with mutant crops!

Ardennes posted:

That said, it is a pity your choice is: a corrupt liberal democracy, ultra-reactionaries/fascists and basically a technocratic-plutocracy that is dis-interested in 90% of the population. I guess every option has to be "bad" in some way, but too bad you couldn't pick some type of communal direct democracy... I guess Yes Man is the closest your going to get.

Cream-of-Plenty posted:

Harold should have shown up inexplicably (again). Bow to the forces of New Oasis! Unite New Vegas' disenfranchised outer districts, and use Clayton Etienne as your sergeant-at-arms in enforcing Co-op law. Steal the secrets from Vault 22 and harness the hydraulic powers of Hoover Dam to terrorize the Mojave with mutant crops!

Tubgirl Cosplay posted:

In the base game melee is a viable option; in OWB guns aren't. It's a bit different. You really never wind up engaging anything at range because on the overworld map enemies straight-up aren't there until you come in closer, and all the baddies soak up much more damage (and nearly all only drop SECs). Meanwhile the DLC furnishes you with two really crazy powerful melee/unarmed weapons and one pretty decent shortranged energy pistol that stunlocks the enemies you'll spend most of your time fighting.

Dush posted:

Man. Pity? It's actually pretty awesome and a lot better this way. It'd be really horribly lame if you could pick some sort of "communal direct democracy" utopia bullshit.

Ardennes posted:

I guess, but for some people... the legion is a utopia.

Caufman posted:

Those who are swallowed into Caesar's Legion face a different choice than the courier. The conquered do indeed face a "join us or die" ultimatum. There's not much I say to people stuck in this scenario because it's obvious where a person would turn to, and I don't fault and individual for choosing life as a slave over death. But the courier and so the player faces a totally different choice. Players who support the Legion do so under minimal duress. They can join willingly, or crush the entire Legion. If you've been reading all my posts and haven't picked up on the fact that this is the dilemma I'm interested in engaging and dismantling, the dilemma of why players voluntarily support a fascist regime when every alternative is an improvement, then I don't know what to tell you. I'm not obfuscating my intentions. You seem intent on ignoring them to make your jabs at discussion about games. Yeah, good for you, you logged into SA, clicked the Games forum, opened the New Vegas thread, and have been participating in a discussion. You want a gold star, too?

quote:

Earlier you mentioned that the Legion we see in the game is just the tip of a spear, and many defenses of the Legion revolve around the idea that if we could visit their territories, we'd see how superior their policies are. I would say the same thing is true about the NCR. The Mojave is NCR's frontier, the very fringe's of its civilization. My understanding is that the core region is economically vibrant and stable and boring (one of the reasons Cass leaves for the Mojave in the first place.) California has enough going for it that it can produce enough goods to sustain Nevada's service-dominated economy. It sends gamblers with disposable income to the Strip. It teaches new generations of scientists and engineers.

quote:

If you play your cards right, you can even see Alice McLafferty and the Van Graffs brought to justice without requiring violent vigilantism.

quote:

Again, I'm not saying the NCR is the best solution for the Mojave, but are they really that much less viable than the fascist alternative? As the Legion presses westwards, they are going to run into the same problems of being stretched too thin to control effectively. The Courier can even convince Lanius that this is true, and he'll run home. I think this was a deliberate part on the writers, to make sure that any solution is at least plausibly viable. I don't think that's where the end-game of this conversation will be. I don't think anyone can conclusively show that one policy is better adapted at surviving the wasteland than the other. As harsh as the post-apocalyptic world is, Fallout can sustain civilization, and a society in California has demonstrated that by building a nation based on personal liberty and representative democracy. Similarly, Caesar's Legion has proven that fascism is also viable by introducing total war to tribals and destroying culture and freedom in favor or homogeneity and single-state worship.

quote:

Ultimately, and I've said this for a while, I think the final conclusion for why players choose the Legion lies in preferences, not survivability. Both Caesar's Legion and the NCR have different paths towards survival, the NCR by employment of resources and the rich economic activity that capitalism provides, the Legion by transforming the individual to cogs in the state machine. This is why I said I'd give total respect to anyone who will come into this thread and say they support the Legion because they just like fascism more than democracies, anarchies, or ostensibly benevolent dictatorships. I respect this opinion because A) it's not popular in the 21st century and B) I ultimately can't argue with preferences. But this conversation will go on so long as people make this point: "The NCR has problems, leaning closer to fascism is the solution." There's just too many holes there. Like your point about Helios One. The NCR is mismanaging its energy allocation, but I don't think the Legion will allow electricity at all. In this specific instance, introducing the Legion will not solve the problem, it will just make it irrelevant.

As for the Motivated Dude problem, most games and certainly every Fallout game implicitly operate on the Margaret Mead idea that a small group of people can change the world. They can stop a mutant revolution, they can prevent widespread genocide, and they can turn back two national armies at a dam. This isn't a problem with democracies, it's a feature of humanity and an important concession in video games to keep them interesting. I like very much the writing in Lonesome Road because after over a decade, finally someone adds something to the Fallout motto. "If war never changes, then people must." This is why I hope people like players of Fallout NV will not voluntarily choose fascism. The causes of war, limited resources and competing ideologies, are not going away, but if people sitting in chairs looking at monitors in presumably democratic countries still think fascism provides solutions, we're going to still need to talk.

Ardennes posted:

That said, it is a pity your choice is: a corrupt liberal democracy, ultra-reactionaries/fascists and basically a technocratic-plutocracy that is dis-interested in 90% of the population. I guess every option has to be "bad" in some way, but too bad you couldn't pick some type of communal direct democracy... I guess Yes Man is the closest your going to get.

Cream-of-Plenty posted:

Especially under the pressure of, you know, trying to stay alive in a mutant-ridden wasteland, somebody might choose to join the biggest and meanest person in the room, regardless of that person's ideology.

Ze Pollack posted:

Tellin' ya, man. Utobitha. Been sold on it ever since Best Friend Tabitha explained 'it was either we keep our pet Centaurs or we let humans in. It was a hard decision, but let's face it: Centaurs are adorable.'

Ardennes posted:

Anyway, what is the worse case scenario of the NCR's bureaucracy and corruption? It becomes a primitive fascist state where technology doesn't work, the medical system has collapsed and its ruled by a nutty dictator.... oh wait.

SlothfulCobra posted:

The level of bloodlust implied in the crazy deathcount that the Legion leaves everywhere it goes doesn't seem to me like the sort of thing that makes for good spy material. Hell, abstaining from any drugs doesn't seem like good spy material, since every society drinks; just round up the suspects who abstain from alcohol or stimpacks and you could find spies that way.

Wolfsheim posted:

Pretty condescending bro! But anyway:

quote:

Actually if you complete McLafferty's questline (including stealing the Gun Runners schematics) before you expose them, both the Van Graffs and Crimson Caravan get slaughtered on the return trip to California.

So in the end, it really does boil down to well-organized guys with guns

quote:

Not that this is really an argument for the Legion per se, but its hinted at in the game that NCR is dying a slow death due to the bloated system-wide bureacracy and corruption that has made it basically unable to function at anything not a snail's pace. Hell, if you have Lonesome Road, Ulysses pretty much spells it out for you point-blank.

(He also says the Legion is gonna die due to entirely different problems, but that's kind of the point. They're both bad, dumb ideas.)

quote:

I think you're overthinking this here by, like, a LOT. There's several reasons someone would choose the Legion: because 88 individual tribes being forcibly assimilated into wearing old football equipment, speaking faux-Latin and worshipping some prick with a Jersey accent as the Son of Mars is vastly more interesting than 'basically the US government but more limp-wristed.' Because assassinating a president is vastly more interesting than stopping someone else from doing it, gameplay-wise. Because those Praetorian capes are baller as gently caress.

Nobody who is not either very stupid or very insane is literally going "Hmmmm, I think in that situation I would prefer to live under the fascist regime where I'm not allowed to drink, take real medicine and my day consists of being raped constantly/attacking dudes with assault rifles with a point stick." You can still see the 'upside' in terms of long-term regional stability and the ideological war between the two and have fun arguing about it without wanting fascism IRL. Another revelation: you don't have to want to eat people to take the 'Cannibal' perk

Ddraig posted:

I wonder what people's reactions would be if the legion wasn't based on the romans but on the ottoman empire, who were also a huge force in the world, practiced slavery, and were generally regarded as one of the most powerful empires in the history of the world for a lot of the same reasons the romans were.

Slavery in the Ottoman empire was also far less of an open and shut case than in the Roman empire because "slaves" often entered into very priviledged positions in society, particularly if they became janissaries.

Ardennes posted:

The Ottomans were extremely pluralistic through and even if slavery was legal, it was in a very different context and it would have to bring up Islamic definitions of slavery. More or less, it would be a mess unless someone actually took the time to study Ottoman history. As it is, the legion has barely having to do with the actual Roman Empire. Obsidian version of the Ottoman Empire would be some dudes in Turbans made from fast food wrappers riding around on horses looking for women for their harams.

Cream-of-Plenty posted:

To be fair, I believe Ropekid has explained several times that Caesar's Legion wasn't modeled off of the Roman Empire, itself. He's actually gone into a lot of depth on the subject, leading me to believe the writers didn't simply watch "Gladiator" when they were creating the faction. I would like to think that if they had based it off of the Ottoman empire, they would have given it the same amount of care and attention, and wouldn't end up with the crap you came up with.

Ardennes posted:

Ceasar's legion seemed to be the best hits of the most repelling stuff about the Romans, I guess it was intentional. But man, there would have been so much of a stronger argument about their long term stability if you all that boring civilian bureaucrat was there too. Yeah, Ceasar's legion was the tip of the spear but if they had mentioned the "senate" or "tribune" it would have been so much more compelling.

Ceasar could just say "the Senate does what I SAY!" but at least you knew there was some type of machinery in the background and it literally just wasn't just an army and slaves. Otherwise, they're just a bunch of raiders with a literate warlord and that just isn't a compelling option if are hoping for anything positive.

This is has been said before, but I guess it needs to be repeated.

Cream-of-Plenty posted:

That's perfectly reasonable, in that case. I was simply pointing out that it's disingenuous to say that they were based off of the Roman Empire, itself (and thus a poor imitation) when it's been established that they aren't. I, too, would have liked to have seen more in-game dialogue and evidence pointing to Caesar's plans once they overtook the Mojave--something that would clearly indicate they were more than shock, awe, and violence. Even if it was a simple conversation with Caesar where he said, "Once the Mojave is ours, we can begin rebuilding its trade channels, etc..."

While there are hints of something more to the faction, for most players it isn't enough to provide a rational counterpoint to the NCR.

Caufman posted:

quote:

slavery

Tubgirl Cosplay posted:

First off, it's not about your persona ingame. Nobody here's discussing the Legion because they're seriously confused that the loopy foreign screaming dudes with heads on pikes are dickheads, so can we finally dispense with that tired-rear end bullshit? Yeah, fascists are bad news, especially from the perspectives and values systems of a democratic individualist society. Most people don't need a videogame to tell them that. The game goes to a lot of trouble to question unquestioned assumptions re: all that poo poo, examining why they're bad and why anyone would be one even though they're bad, what similarities and connections their badness might have to problems of our own we just handwave away. Point-blank refusing to engage that material and just asserting your preference for effectively your own status quo, accusing anyone who actually reads the problem as presented of being Hitler is about the least interesting response possible.

We don't actually see the core states or economic foundations of either power, all we get is the words of people who have been there. What you get out of the people from Redding etc. is actually that they're sorta depressed shitholes that got stabilized a bit but haven't developed at all, and are still much the poo poo-poor cowtowns they were in FO2 if not worse. That's why the people who willingly sign up join the NCR army, they'd rather be shot at than be stuck in their own little colonies for the rest of their lives. I can't think of a character that talks about their home in California fondly - maybe I just can't remember one though. While nobody goes into any detail about Legion rule and it's hard to see how they'd accomplish what's attributed to them, it is asserted generally that life in the Legion is at least pretty awesome if you're a dude who didn't get enslaved.

That's not exactly the most shining praise, especially when coupled with the whole rapetrain deal and general barbarism, but it's worth pointing out that while they've taken on the trappings the NCR is not the America you live in. A couple towns get to be America, the rest is Mexico, Sri Lanka, maybe Iraq, the guys who pay for the nice lives and social mobility of the core.


So... who found themselves revising their opinion of the NCR in light of how the Powder Gangers got treated? I mean, the first thing you're likely to see of the NCR is essentially a straight-up slave camp that lead a Spartacus-style revolt, it's sorta funny that slavery seems to be one of the two sticking points for the Legion that's trucked out to favor their enemies.

The NCR has a functional slave economy parallel to the Legion's, it's just a more modern styled one, similar to our own where sweatshops and forced labor (with attendant near-indefinite prison terms for previously minor offenses and broad disregard for the treatment of anyone not a papered citizen) sprang up to fill the economic niche voided when our old class of subcitizens became untenable.

quote:

Edward Sallow created Caesar's Legion as an imitation of the Roman Legion, but without any of the Roman society that supported the Roman Legion. I've written this before, but there are no optimates, no populares, no plebes, no equestrians, no patricians, no senate, no Rome. There's no right to private property (within the Legion itself). There's no civil law. There aren't even the ceremonial trappings of Roman society. Legates don't receive triumphs following a victory. No one in the Legion retires to a villa in Sedona.

It's essentially a Roman legion with only the very top commander having any connection to the "source" culture, the rest being indoctrinated conscripts from cultures that were honestly less well-developed than anything in Gaul. Gauls are pretty sophisticated compared to the 80+ tribes. Gauls could read the Latin or Greek alphabets (Gallic language, obviously), had extensive permanent settlements, roads, calendars, mines, and a whole load of poo poo that groups like the Blackfoots never had.

What Caesar gave to those tribes was order, discipline, an end to internecine tribal violence (eventually), common language, and a common culture that was not rooted in any of their parent cultures. The price was extreme brutality, an enormous loss of life and individual culture, the complete dissolution of anything resembling a traditional family, and the indoctrination of fascist values.

Caesar's Legion isn't the Roman Empire or the Roman Republic. It isn't even the Roman Legion. It's a slave army with trappings of foreign-conscripted Roman legionaries during the late empire. All military, no civilian, and with none of the supporting civilian culture.

Ardennes posted:

Caesar has shown he can unite tribesmen like gang busters but no real evidence that he is capable of competing a modern state expect in a brute force military manner. The reason I had suggested Ceasar's empire be run differently, is that I think an army more fully modeled on the Roman Empire would actually be appealing to the player since at least there would be some confidence Ceasar knew how to run things in peace time.

Dush posted:

That's the gamble, really. If you go NCR, there's no guarantee that they won't eventually collapse from their continued push east. If you support House, there's no guarantee it'll help... anything, really. If you go Yes Man, someone else might sweep in and take the wild Mojave by force, rendering all your work moot. If you support Caesar, his new empire might totally blow for everybody. I don't think there's any really safe bets for the Mojave.

Speedball posted:

So, why did House fill most of Vault 21 with cement? Was he worried its lower areas would intersect with his own underground robot factories if left unattended?

Formspring posted:

Joshua E. Sawyer

Why in the world would House cement in that Vault? It makes no sense.

He doesn't want it to be able to return to a fully-functional vault because he doesn't want its former residents to attempt to retake it. I.e. he wants to motivate the Vault 21 dwellers to leave the area. If he had simply sealed off areas or electronically locked portions of it, enterprising smarties like ex-vaulters might attempt to work against him and eventually restore it. With the majority of the vault filled with cement, it can only function as a tourist attraction and small-scale residence.
JESawyer responded 1 day ago

Pope Guilty posted:

I hate to interrupt this discussion, which is fascinating- the fact that it enables this sort of conversation is a huge part of why I love New Vegas- but I've finally got around to the DLCs and after killing Dr Mobius in Old World Blues, I'm getting CTDs about 50% of the time when I fast travel, even after returning to the Mojave. Anybody else had this?

gohuskies posted:

Turn off auto-save on fast travel.

Tubgirl Cosplay posted:

Point-blank refusing to engage that material and just asserting your preference for effectively your own status quo, accusing anyone who actually reads the problem as presented of being Hitler is about the least interesting response possible.

quote:

That's not exactly the most shining praise, especially when coupled with the whole rapetrain deal and general barbarism, but it's worth pointing out that while they've taken on the trappings the NCR is not the America you live in. A couple towns get to be America, the rest is Mexico, Sri Lanka, maybe Iraq, the guys who pay for the nice lives and social mobility of the core.

quote:

The NCR has a functional slave economy parallel to the Legion's, it's just a more modern styled one, similar to our own where sweatshops and forced labor (with attendant near-indefinite prison terms for previously minor offenses and broad disregard for the treatment of anyone not a papered citizen) sprang up to fill the economic niche voided when our old class of subcitizens became untenable.

Ardennes posted:

why would the player want to be part of it unless their just into that type of thing?