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Hamelekim posted:Look at the American and British overthrow of the Iranian government in the 50's to install the shah. They turned the people against the leadership through covert violent actions. So it is possible to do this. So people don't express that they are mad unless they think they can get results? And just to be clear, "the west" is solely responsible for Arab Spring movements in: Tunisa, Algeria, Lebanon, Jordan, Mauritania, Sudan, Oman, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Yemen, Iraq, Bahrain, Libya, Kuwait, Morocco AND Syria? And the Occupy movement is funded entirely by the Chinese... Yes, there have been greedy motivations for actions in the middle east, but that doesn't mean everything that happens there is a plot directly controlled by foreign powers. thiswayliesmadness fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Feb 6, 2012 |
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Feb 6, 2012 19:58
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Syria is rather famously lacking in any notable natural resources. It has some oil, but not enough to make it rich. Some argue that the inability to placate its population with oil money is one of the reasons it has been so authoritarian and obsessed with internal propaganda.
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Feb 6, 2012 20:00
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Hamelekim posted:I think you're just being ignorant of what the West is really all about, and what they have been doing in the middle east for decades. Are you for real? You're really telling a Middle Easterner (please correct me if I'm wrong az jan jananam) he doesn't know anything about his own loving homeland? This is one of the most condescending and insultingly offensive things I've ever read on these forums. quote:Hell, the only reason why the US went into Afghanistan was because the Taliban wouldn't agree to allow them to place an oil pipeline through their country. They already had military plans to attack the country. Nope. quote:I don't understand why you can't see what is going on in the middle east. You appear to be extremely myopic when it comes to the events in the middle east. The West doesn't want real democracy in the middle east. They want toady governments that will bow to western corporate interests, and if they don't, they get overthrown. Silly Arabs, you don't know what's best for you! Let me tell you how stupid you are for thinking you can form your own views! quote:The West supports these movements but in return they are guaranteed preferential access to natural resources, as well as preferential access for Western corporations. This is actually true, but it's hardly an invention of The West™. It's been happening since the dawn of civilization.
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Feb 6, 2012 20:00
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Hamelekim posted:I think you're just being ignorant of what the West is really all about, and what they have been doing in the middle east for decades. Hell, the only reason why the US went into Afghanistan was because the Taliban wouldn't agree to allow them to place an oil pipeline through their country. They already had military plans to attack the country. I don't understand why you can't see what is going on in the middle east. You appear to be extremely myopic when it comes to the events in the middle east. The West doesn't want real democracy in the middle east. They want toady governments that will bow to western corporate interests, and if they don't, they get overthrown. While I'm sure you'll provide ample proof for your accusation for the Afghan invasion, you're right about the preferential access. It didn't take long for France to assert its "right" to have first access to Lybia's oil resources on the basis that Lybia "owed" them.
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Feb 6, 2012 20:00
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suboptimal posted:Where the gently caress are you getting that this is all some sort of Western conspiracy? This poo poo was annoying as all hell with Libya, and it's even more unfounded when it comes to Syria. I agree with az jan jananam- the idea that Arabs somehow are incapable of action unless spurred on by some insidious foreign plot is basically a page out of the same playbook that the dictators you claim to be against use. I read the news and study history. I'm sorry if that upsets you, but reality isn't always roses. What makes you think that the West isn't central to these movements to overthrow governments in the middle east? What do you make of the various government sources that have said that the US has a military plan to reshape the middle east, and that includes overthrowing Syria, Iraq, Iran, Libya, Egypt, Sudan, Somalia, the list goes on. Or about how the movement in Egypt was specifically trained overseas by groups that are funded by the US government on how to overthrow governments through mass movements? These US supported groups were training people to overthrow the Egyptian government while at the same time supporting the Egyptian government publicly. You don't see the conspiracy in all of this? What I think you should do is sit down and so some research on Western involvement in the middle east over the last 100 years.
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Feb 6, 2012 20:02
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Hamelekim posted:I think you're just being ignorant of what the West is really all about, and what they have been doing in the middle east for decades. Hell, the only reason why the US went into Afghanistan was because the Taliban wouldn't agree to allow them to place an oil pipeline through their country. They already had military plans to attack the country. I don't understand why you can't see what is going on in the middle east. You appear to be extremely myopic when it comes to the events in the middle east. The West doesn't want real democracy in the middle east. They want toady governments that will bow to western corporate interests, and if they don't, they get overthrown. See, and I thought the Afghanistan invasion had something to do with that entire 9/11 thing. Thanks for clearing that up. Again and again- the "West" was more than content to deal with Libya in recent years, and we had been emerging into a kind of new diplomatic reality with them since they abandoned their nuclear program in 2003. European oil companies had been doing increased business with them, and we had links with their intelligence services in terms of counter-terrorism cooperation. If "the West" were only motivated by capitalistic greed, then it would have been infinitely easier to support Qadhafi as he attempted to crush the uprising rather than having to spend diplomatic and political capital to affect the NATO mission. Ditto Syria as well. One of Obama's first diplomatic actions was to stand up our Embassy in Damascus after years of having no diplomatic presence in that country. Again, if we were motivated only by "stability" it would have paid to let Assad crush Syria's protest movement and use that as leverage for further concessions.
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Feb 6, 2012 20:04
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I wish the West was that competent, maybe then we wouldn't have this Euro-currency crash.
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Feb 6, 2012 20:05
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Hamelekim posted:What do you make of the various government sources that have said that the US has a military plan to reshape the middle east, and that includes overthrowing Syria, Iraq, Iran, Libya, Egypt, Sudan, Somalia, the list goes on. Hamelekim posted:These US supported groups were training people to overthrow the Egyptian government while at the same time supporting the Egyptian government publicly. You don't see the conspiracy in all of this?
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Feb 6, 2012 20:06
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Hamelekim posted:These US supported groups were training people to overthrow the Egyptian government while at the same time supporting the Egyptian government publicly. You don't see the conspiracy in all of this? Yes. Training the Egyptians... on how to sit in a square. What? There isn't enough tinfoil.
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Feb 6, 2012 20:06
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Hamelekim posted:I read the news and study history. Not very well, it seems. You've regurgitated nothing but condescending, uncited nonsense of the same sort that's been periodically spewed into this thread since the first protests in Egypt a year ago. You have nothing intelligent to say and you're not being taken seriously because the regulars in this thread have already heard every single "argument" you've made posted by someone else, and they've been laughed out of the thread every time.
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Feb 6, 2012 20:09
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thiswayliesmadness posted:So people don't express that they are mad unless they think they can get results? And just to be clear, "the west" is solely responsible for Arab Spring movements in: Tunisa, Algeria, Lebanon, Jordan, Mauritania, Sudan, Oman, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Yemen, Iraq, Bahrain, Libya, Kuwait, Morocco AND Syria? I think I've already made it clear that I believe there is genuine dislike of governments in various middle eastern countries. My argument is that normally that dislike is kept under a boil. But Western powers are putting a fire under the people and causing them to rise up. I won't say that Saudi Arabia or Bahrain were the same, although I don't know all the details behind their specific movements. It could very well be the West telling those countries that if they get out of line, they can have them overthrown. Then they sold them the arms to further suppress their people. It would be detrimental for Saudi Arabia to be overthrown at this point in time. However, there is justification in Egypt, Syria, Iraq, and Iran. The West wants three things in the middle east. 1. They want to secure oil resources for themselves. 2. They want to secure the consumer marketplace for western corporations. 3. They want to eliminate Russian and Chinese political, resource, and corporate interests in the middle east. I judge everything that goes on the middle east based off of those three points. Everything that has happened so far leads to support of all three of those points, especially point 1 and 3.
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Feb 6, 2012 20:13
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Hamelekim posted:Look at the American and British overthrow of the Iranian government in the 50's to install the shah. They turned the people against the leadership through covert violent actions. So it is possible to do this. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Operation Ajax was put into place specifically because the British and the Americans failed to turn the Iranians against Mossadegh. They failed so badly that instead they had to bribe and coopt a set of military and Islamist leaders to act against the wildly popular Mossadegh to install a military dictatorship.
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Feb 6, 2012 20:15
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And here you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. You believe that people are unhappy with their governments, yet only when they get the wink and nudge from Uncle Sam are they compelled to express their grievances absent any other form of credible political participation? Furthermore, what was our material interest in Tunisia? They don't have much oil at all, unless you're going to tell us that we desired their oh-so-critical mining operations in the Gafsa region. Did Mohammed Bouazizi receive training at Langley and get paradropped into Sidi Bouzid, or was he deep-cover until the right time?
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Feb 6, 2012 20:17
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Not very well, it seems. You've regurgitated nothing but condescending, uncited nonsense of the same sort that's been periodically spewed into this thread since the first protests in Egypt a year ago. Then I suppose those regulars will remain ignorant of what is really going on around them. I'm not going to suppress my viewpoint just because someone disagrees with it. I don't base my views on how popular they are or how well liked they will make me. I could care less whether or not someone laughs at my views. I care about the truth, nothing more. What I see from people in this thread is an extremely simplistic worldview that ignores most of human history. It's as though you live in a bubble and the only truth is what you see on CNN. Do some real research on what the West is doing in the world, how they are expanding their empires, and how they are reshaping the middle east to meet their own needs. If you can't see that then you are hopelessly ignorant.
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Feb 6, 2012 20:18
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Hamelekim posted:Then I suppose those regulars will remain ignorant of what is really going on around them. I'm not going to suppress my viewpoint just because someone disagrees with it. I don't base my views on how popular they are or how well liked they will make me. I could care less whether or not someone laughs at my views. I care about the truth, nothing more. What I see from people in this thread is an extremely simplistic worldview that ignores most of human history. It's as though you live in a bubble and the only truth is what you see on CNN. The Truth™ [citation needed]
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Feb 6, 2012 20:18
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Simpsons dolls banned in Iran as 'promoters of Western culture'quote:REPORTING FROM TEHRAN -- Sorry kids, the Simpsons are now forbidden in Tehran. An agency tied to the Iranian government has banned the sale of dolls of the American cartoon characters, an Iranian newspaper reported Monday. Dolls are serious business. In related news: genitalia have been directly linked to western culture. Burgermeister Meisterburger was unavailable for comment.
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Feb 6, 2012 20:20
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Hamelekim posted:The West wants three things in the middle east. You realize that what is advantageous for an American company is not advantageous for a German company. 'The West' is no where even remotely as unified as you think of it. Though those 3 goals are generally on the list of things they care about, far less so #2 (though #1 doesn't really apply to Syria). quote:I judge everything that goes on the middle east based off of those three points. Everything that has happened so far leads to support of all three of those points, especially point 1 and 3. This is why you're so damned wrong. Those are valid interests, but to see those (or to frame them) as the entire range of Western (lol, again) influence is astoundingly myopic. You can't imagine any other reason a government might want to interact with a country in the ME?
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Feb 6, 2012 20:20
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az jan jananam posted:Wrong, wrong, wrong. Operation Ajax was put into place specifically because the British and the Americans failed to turn the Iranians against Mossadegh. They failed so badly that instead they had to bribe and coopt a set of military and Islamist leaders to act against the wildly popular Mossadegh to install a military dictatorship. So how exactly was I wrong? I said that the US and Britain overthrew the government in Iran, which is what they did.
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Feb 6, 2012 20:21
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Hamelekim posted:Then I suppose those regulars will remain ignorant of what is really going on around them. I'm not going to suppress my viewpoint just because someone disagrees with it. I don't base my views on how popular they are or how well liked they will make me. I could care less whether or not someone laughs at my views. I care about the truth, nothing more. What I see from people in this thread is an extremely simplistic worldview that ignores most of human history. It's as though you live in a bubble and the only truth is what you see on CNN. Should I listen to Alex Jones, while I'm at it?
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Feb 6, 2012 20:22
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The-Mole posted:You realize that what is advantageous for an American company is not advantageous for a German company. 'The West' is no where even remotely as unified as you think of it. Though those 3 goals are generally on the list of things they care about, far less so #2 (though #1 doesn't really apply to Syria). There are disputes among the various western nations, but that doesn't mean that their goals are not the same in the big picture. Global economic, political, and military government is the end game. Sure Britain, Germany, and France may disagree on many issues, but in the end, the powers behind those governments, the banking interests, are still in agreement on what they want. But you are right, I can't imagine any other reasons than the list I gave for why a Western nation would want to deal with a country in the Middle East.
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Feb 6, 2012 20:26
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Now now, this isn't the Guardian Live Blog, you should at least all try to debate each other points, I find it's a good way to keep your mind refreshed on all things Arab Spring.
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Feb 6, 2012 20:27
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I'm just waiting for Hamelekim to post a Lizzie Phelan link at this point.
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Feb 6, 2012 20:28
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Hamelekim posted:There are disputes among the various western nations, but that doesn't mean that their goals are not the same in the big picture. Global economic, political, and military government is the end game. Sure Britain, Germany, and France may disagree on many issues, but in the end, the powers behind those governments, the banking interests, are still in agreement on what they want. Are these bankers located in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem? I think you're one step closer to unraveling the truth behind the sinister deeds of the Zionist Occupational Government!
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Feb 6, 2012 20:28
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Rent-A-Cop posted:The US has a military plan to reshape Canada. I would be astounded if there wasn't at least one preliminary warplan for every country in the Middle East. There are multiple military scenarios mapped out for every country in the world, not just the Middle East. But yes, your absolutely right. America plans the invasion or pacification of every country on earth because they want to be ready for anything, not because they are actually going to do so. It is prudent military strategy. Grayly Squirrel fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Feb 6, 2012 |
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Feb 6, 2012 20:28
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thiswayliesmadness posted:I'm just waiting for Hamelekim to post a Lizzie Phelan link at this point. Yeah, I think the following pretty much loses you any argument in this thread - Lizzie Phelan - Mahdi Darius Nemenroaya - Thierry Meysan - Russia Today - Press TV - Voltaire Network - Globalresearch.ca - Libya SOS - Libya 360
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Feb 6, 2012 20:30
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The-Mole posted:Should I listen to Alex Jones, while I'm at it? No, I don't think that would help you, you're too far gone.
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Feb 6, 2012 20:31
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Hamelekim posted:What I see from people in this thread is an extremely simplistic worldview that ignores most of human history. Oh the irony is thicker than your tinfoil. I don't have time to list all of the revolutions throughout human history overthrowing their government's oppression. 'Revolution is always stemmed from outside influence throughout most of human history.' That seems extremely simplistic. It wasn't Marie Antoinette that sparked the French Revolution, it was secret English covert ops stemming violence and hatred towards the French Aristocracy. Before that - their approval was quite high. Little known fact, the English introduced and taught the french citizens on how to use the Guillotine. #notintendedtobeafactualstatement Sivias fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Feb 6, 2012 |
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Feb 6, 2012 20:31
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Hamelekim posted:I think I've already made it clear that I believe there is genuine dislike of governments in various middle eastern countries. My argument is that normally that dislike is kept under a boil. But Western powers are putting a fire under the people and causing them to rise up. I won't say that Saudi Arabia or Bahrain were the same, although I don't know all the details behind their specific movements. It could very well be the West telling those countries that if they get out of line, they can have them overthrown. Then they sold them the arms to further suppress their people. It would be detrimental for Saudi Arabia to be overthrown at this point in time. However, there is justification in Egypt, Syria, Iraq, and Iran. 1. Western centric point of view 2. Details details 3. Speculation
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Feb 6, 2012 20:32
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suboptimal posted:Are these bankers located in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem? I think you're one step closer to unraveling the truth behind the sinister deeds of the Zionist Occupational Government! Um, no. I don't know why you think it's crazy to believe that banks control the world. It's the logical conclusion to make. Just look at what has happened with the global economy. That was due to bankers influencing governments to pass laws to allow them to commit fraud on a global scale. It doesn't have to be anything but greed as a motive and it still makes sense.
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Feb 6, 2012 20:35
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Sivias posted:Oh the irony is thicker than your tinfoil. I don't have time to list all of the revolutions throughout human history overthrowing their government's oppression. Who said all world revolutions were due to outside forces? I'm just talking about these countries being overthrown in the middle east.
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Feb 6, 2012 20:36
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Hamelekim posted:Who said all world revolutions were due to outside forces? I'm just talking about these countries being overthrown in the middle east. Talking with no actual knowledge, self-awareness, or common sense, I think you mean.
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Feb 6, 2012 20:38
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Hamelekim posted:There are disputes among the various western nations, but that doesn't mean that their goals are not the same in the big picture. Global economic, political, and military government is the end game. Sure Britain, Germany, and France may disagree on many issues, but in the end, the powers behind those governments, the banking interests, are still in agreement on what they want. So you are saying that a group of countries which cannot even get their own people to like them are somehow masters of both persuasion and manipulation on an unprecedented scale, and the logistics involved in such an operation? That German banks are more interested in the goings on of Syria over Greece? That Britain agrees with France and Germany on a master plan to manipulate the Middle East when they cannot even agree on fiscal policy in Europe? Like all conspiracies, they are only plausible before you start exploring what the implications are.
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Feb 6, 2012 20:38
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Hamelekim posted:So how exactly was I wrong? 
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Feb 6, 2012 20:39
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:...common sense... THAT'S IT! 'The West' is behind the uprisings in the middle east! They finally got their hands on Thomas Paine!
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Feb 6, 2012 20:41
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I think the extent of American involvement in the various Arab Spring movements have been one of enablement rather than its prime driving force. Obviously there were feelings of dissent and dissatisfaction among a sizable population in the respective countries. American involvement was probably technology, training, etc... so that the people could do what they ultimately wanted to do. So yes there is a 'western' hand behind things, but only in the sense that it helped the people do what they really wanted to do.
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Feb 6, 2012 20:42
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Vladimir Putin posted:I think the extent of American involvement in the various Arab Spring movements have been one of enablement rather than its prime driving force. Obviously there were feelings of dissent and dissatisfaction among a sizable population in the respective countries. American involvement was probably technology, training, etc... so that the people could do what they ultimately wanted to do. Nonsense. The West has a long track record of fabricating psuedo-grassroots movements to overthrow regimes for our alternative motives. Just look at our successful experiences in Cuba, most of Central and South America, Iran, China, Veitnam, Iraq etc.  The best evidence against the West as an evil puppet master in the Arab Spring is that it has been popular and (so-far) successful. The West has actually done in the past what Hamelekim is suggesting they are doing now. A quick comparison between the Contras and the protesters reveals how one is clearly unlike the other. Putin has it absolutley right. The West may have a hand involved. But the protesters would be there anyway, West or no West. It may be a shock, but oppression, poverty, and resource scarcity tend to cause strife all on their own. Grayly Squirrel fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Feb 6, 2012 |
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Feb 6, 2012 20:54
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As an American, I'm really happy that someone thinks that the US still has the kind of power and influence to go in and overhaul an entire region that spans from Morocco to Yemen. Imagine if we actually were that badass.  Whatever happened to that Uzbek-Afghan-Pakistan oil pipeline anyway? If that was the whole point of going into Afghanistan, shouldn't it have gotten underway in the last 10 years?
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Feb 6, 2012 20:55
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Grayly Squirrel posted:So you are saying that a group of countries which cannot even get their own people to like them are somehow masters of both persuasion and manipulation on an unprecedented scale, and the logistics involved in such an operation? That German banks are more interested in the goings on of Syria over Greece? That Britain agrees with France and Germany on a master plan to manipulate the Middle East when they cannot even agree on fiscal policy in Europe? I'm talking about some branch manager of a German bank. I am speaking about those who own and run the banks at the highest levels. Yes, they do care about what happens in the middle east. The problem is, you think too small. These people are bent on total economic, political, and social control of the world.
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Feb 6, 2012 20:56
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Anybody who believes that the outside forces started or supported the Arab revolutions doesn't see and understand reality. Anybody who believes that outside forces aren't busy co-opting or countering those revolutions is doesn't think and hasn't read history. that's my position on this debate. the spark is a pure and popular revolution through and through. but the longer it went, the more the filth and garbage of regional players spoiled it.
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Feb 6, 2012 20:57
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Hamelekim posted:I think you're just being ignorant of what the West is really all about Is there an emote that adequately combines  with  ?
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