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Forgot about that. Mat's status just kind of gets called down and the rules of how that all works get kind of shoved to the background. I mean maybe that just applies to the first sounding? Why was the progression of Falme tied to Ishy v Rand? Why is the Horn tied to Mat, and when and how does it work for him? Still maintain immediate war is a bad idea. Neurosis fucked around with this message at 15:49 on Mar 17, 2012 |
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Mar 17, 2012 15:46
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Getting tied down in one spot so a bunch of Forsaken could gang up and jump you before you've learned Travelling (or anything at all about Channelling, really) is a worse idea.
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Mar 17, 2012 15:53
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I'd thought about that and I agree, but war doesn't necessarily insure against it. Thankfully the Pattern takes care of everything. And of Moiraine, thank god.
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Mar 17, 2012 15:56
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Prison Warden posted:I always thought that this was a ploy by the Black Ajah. I mean, we know at least one of the Red Sitters is a Black Sister and the woman who Elaida is forced to have as her keeper is Alviarin, the leader of the entire Black Ajah. The timing is a little convienient, since I don't think they could have known what Siuan planned, but the Forsaken surely knew about Callandor and could have easily sent some instructions through. One or two spoilers from Book 6 or so there I think. The big clincher is that while they knew the Forsaken would be taking up positions of power, they had the arrogance to assume the Tower itself would be proof against such. Don't forget one of the Sitters advising Elaida was a Forsaken too in hindsight, I'd wager the entire 'depose Siuan' Hall was either Black of dupes of the Black. What Siuan overlooked was the Black uprising(when she became too inconvenient), Falme(impossible to know barring hindsight reading of prophecies) and the Forsaken either covertly ruling or in control of pretty much all non-borderland, non-Aiel leadership at the time. Just take a map and color in what lands the Shadow has control of. Though I wonder if theres any significance to the lands the Forsaken went for first. Tear is obvious, with Callandor, but Illian and Andor don't seem so obvious. Amador was subverted at a very high level, and other Forsaken are moving in secret in all the troubled lands.
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Mar 17, 2012 23:49
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veekie posted:The big clincher is that while they knew the Forsaken would be taking up positions of power, they had the arrogance to assume the Tower itself would be proof against such. Don't forget one of the Sitters advising Elaida was a Forsaken too in hindsight, I'd wager the entire 'depose Siuan' Hall was either Black of dupes of the Black. Mesaana didn't elect to become an actual Sitter. Amyrlin, Sitter, or Ajah Heads all have too much actual responsibility to actually feign. Semirhage was pretty much just that ballsy to even get away with what she was doing.
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Mar 18, 2012 00:25
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Are we on book 4 yet in the re-read? I'm about 2/3's of the way through and every chapter with Perrin in the Two Rivers kicks rear end as does Rand/Matt in the waste. In contrast, the supergirls visiting Tanchico has been rather taxing to read, and I didn't remember it being this much of chore the first time I read the series some 10 years ago. However I loved when Elayne got shitfaced drunk. That was funny as hell. Also, Birgitte out of nowhere in this book. I'd forgotten she was introduced this early in the series (aside from the minor part in book 2), I didn't think she'd show up untill 6 or so. Cartoon Man fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Mar 19, 2012 |
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Mar 19, 2012 17:34
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Cartoon Man posted:Are we on book 4 yet in the re-read? I'm about 2/3's of the way through and every chapter with Perrin in the Two Rivers kicks rear end as does Rand/Matt in the waste. In contrast, the supergirls visiting Tanchico has been rather taxing to read, and I didn't remember it being this much of chore the first time I read the series some 10 years ago. However I loved when Elayne got shitfaced drunk. That was funny as hell. We're starting today!  The Wheel of Time - Book 4: The Shadow Rising (it's spooky) Chapters 1-18 :siren
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Mar 20, 2012 02:26
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Well I've been rereading this series on my own, also with the anticipation of having all the books reread by the time the final book comes out. It's been pretty interesting reading all the characters from the start. Rand, Mat and Perrin really are young, and Rand is really idealistic even 4 books in. I'm well into book 4, on chapter 23, but I think the Faile-Perrin relationship is fascinating to watch in its infancy. For some reason she isn't as annoying this time as she was the first couple of times I read the book - maybe because I know what is going to happen. Also, unlike the previous times I've read this series I'm enjoying listening to the audiobooks. It is a true revelation to learn how these names and places are supposed to be pronounced. Those tongue-twister names were always challenging. I remember during my earlier rereads trying to sound them out. I got darn near every one wrong - except Egwene, her name I had right in my head. Book 4 Spoilers: Also this is the first time I remember that Moiraine has gotten some things glaringly wrong when trying to manipulate the Two-Rivers kids. How fascinating is it to learn that she isn't as omniscient as she'd like everyone to believe. I'm really looking forward to watching Perrin grow as a leader. Also, watching him and Faile fight and enjoying the few times he gets an upper hand. What she did with Loial was so wrong - and the narrator gets just the right amount of hurt in Loial's voice when he finds out how he was manipulated. Book 4 is full of awesome - definitely one of my favorites of the series.
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Mar 20, 2012 20:04
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Hobbes24 posted:Also this is the first time I remember that Moiraine has gotten some things glaringly wrong when trying to manipulate the Two-Rivers kids. (I don't think above text is really a spoiler, so I won't spoilertext my reply -- it's just a general comment about Moiraine's fallibility.) I'm almost done with TDR, and it's been interesting to see how often Moiraine has been taken aback by the ta'veren-ness of all the Emond's Field folk. Time and again events spin out of her control; it gives me some sympathy for her general foul-temperedness. I guess if you've spent twenty years planning on how to save the world from the Dark One by finding and using the Dragon Reborn, it would be pretty annoying to find them and then be almost completely unable to guide them. She's playing catch-up all the time, it seems. Related to this, the first time I read the books, I didn't understand how right Mat, Perrin, and Rand were regarding how Moiraine sees them as tools: I just read that bit in Illian where Moiraine is off to do something sneaky and tells Lan that if anything happens to her, he should take Perrin to Tar Valon so the Aes Sedai can use Mat and Perrin to control Rand. No wonder the Two Rivers folk balk at her lead.
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Mar 20, 2012 21:39
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Moiraine sees EVERYONE as tools in her mission to stop the shadow, though, so it's nothing personal. She's pretty much thrown away her entire life in order to have a slim chance at saving the world, which is a hell of a lot more than a lot of other characters are prepared to do in this series.
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Mar 20, 2012 21:50
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werdnam posted:I guess if you've spent twenty years planning on how to save the world from the Dark One by finding and using the Dragon Reborn, it would be pretty annoying to find them and then be almost completely unable to guide them. She's playing catch-up all the time, it seems. That is until she remembers how Saidar works 
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Mar 20, 2012 23:01
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I'm tempted to propose that we add the phrase "I will do what I must" to the tracker.
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Mar 20, 2012 23:40
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Prison Warden posted:Moiraine sees EVERYONE as tools in her mission to stop the shadow, though, so it's nothing personal. She's pretty much thrown away her entire life in order to have a slim chance at saving the world, which is a hell of a lot more than a lot of other characters are prepared to do in this series. Another part is shes assuming matters will be predictable and go as she's planned for decades, but if it were so, the Forsaken would have totally have been on it, they have more power to direct at the problem. In a predictable fight, the contest would go to the strong side, and the Light is the underdog here. So by nature the Two Rivers boys would HAVE to be unpredictable, to confound and steal marches on the Shadow all the way(consider how they bounced all around the map ruining plans more or less just by being in the area). And she winds up playing catchup like everyone else. As with most such things, they did not need guidance, they needed enabling(fortunately we have Lan here Enabling swordy stuff, Elayne giving out Politics 101, and the Aiel throwing in an Invincible Army to boot).
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Mar 20, 2012 23:44
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Is it too late to sort of join in? I doubt I'll have much to contribute since I simply don't have time to post very often, but I'm reading this series on the train going to and from work. Just about to finish the third novel now. One question regarding Mat's experiences in The Tower. Yellow Ajah are expert Healers, so why wasn't there a single Yellow Sister present at the Healing of Mat?
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Mar 21, 2012 12:52
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It was political, the Tower might have chosen NOT to heal him, which would then break the bond with the Horn, free for whoever they deem fit to be linked to it. If they had Yellows in it, they likely lose the option, I don't see a Yellow not throwing a major fit over the matter.
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Mar 21, 2012 13:09
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The Yellow Ajah is pretty useless until book 7 or 8 when Nynaeve starts learning how to heal using other flows like fire and such. Who would want to be in that Ajah? There is only one way to Heal, everybody in the Ajah knows how to do it, just about everybody outside the ajah with moderate strength in the power knows how to Heal. Theres nothing for them to research. What do they do in the Yellow quarters all day long?
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Mar 21, 2012 13:18
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One of my favorite things about this series is how we, the reader, grow with the characters. At the beginning, Trollocs are a Big loving Deal and deadly. Soon, Trollocs ain't no thang but a chicken wang and Myrdrall are the threat. And then the Chosen. (and assumedly the Great Lord of the Dark) Also, I love how the scale of the books gets bigger, and bigger, and bigger. When we started, we were country bumpkins like the guys, experiencing the world for the first time. Holy poo poo! Ogier, and big cities, and Aes Sedai, oh my! Starting now it's all old hat, so we zoom out on the world map and we're going to be seeing more of the world. Even the individual characters grow. It's not just the scope of the story, but like Mat goes from a pretty good fighter to Bad rear end General. Like I've said before, in my opinion, all through book 6 is all uphill and this is my favorite part of the reread.
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Mar 21, 2012 14:41
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Cartoon Man posted:The Yellow Ajah is pretty useless until book 7 or 8 when Nynaeve starts learning how to heal using other flows like fire and such. Who would want to be in that Ajah? There is only one way to Heal, everybody in the Ajah knows how to do it, just about everybody outside the ajah with moderate strength in the power knows how to Heal. Theres nothing for them to research. What do they do in the Yellow quarters all day long? I kinda wondered the same thing. I suspect that desperately sick people come to the Tower for healing fairly frequently, so that's probably what the Yellows take care of. If you get cancer in Randland it ain't like they have chemo.
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Mar 21, 2012 15:06
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To be fair there are some things that the yellows can heal that regular aes sedai cannot. Moraine mentions this in book 1. The yellows also study healing - mental illnesses that cannot be cured with normal flows and really intense injuries - I always thought it was too bad Thom was too afraid of Aes Sedai to have a really skilled yellow fix that leg. Also, Matt wasn't sick in the normal virus or injury way. His was more of a sickness to be cured by a priest than a doctor. I just think they use the term "heal" as a catch all to describe the exorcism they really did.
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Mar 21, 2012 15:14
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Mat's exorcism seemed to need a huge amount of brute power (a full circle PLUS Vora's sa'angreal?) more than Healing skill/finesse, which is what I think Yellows are really about.
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Mar 21, 2012 15:49
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I would have thought that the Yellow Ajah would have set up some kind of hospital system in each of the major cities to help everybody, but I guess they'd get chased out with torches and pitchforks.
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Mar 21, 2012 15:51
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Cartoon Man posted:I would have thought that the Yellow Ajah would have set up some kind of hospital system in each of the major cities to help everybody, but I guess they'd get chased out with torches and pitchforks. Yeah, they just let Wilders/Wise Women/The Kin do that kind of thing. VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Mar 22, 2012 |
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Mar 21, 2012 15:58
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Hobbes24 posted:I always thought it was too bad Thom was too afraid of Aes Sedai to have a really skilled yellow fix that leg. It wasn't the magnitude of the injury, it was the time since it had happened. Moiraine says so explicitly. What the Aes Sedai call Healing these days is basic battlefield triage. It's designed to heal existing wounds, but can't do anything about the lingering after-effects of an old injury. The Yellow Ajah is comprised of sisters who have a natural talent for that particular weave and for Delving, which is using the One Power to make a diagnosis.
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Mar 21, 2012 17:36
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Basically they can heal an existing condition, which has limitations with regards to long term care. However, as I understand it, the Healing weave itself is not really that simple, with a lot of factors involved regarding the victim's condition and the problem to be repaired. Thats what the pre-Heal Delving is for. The basic weave handles straight physical trauma, and common wound infections just fine(I'm guessing most of the Aes Sedai taught during the War of the Power didn't get the full scholastic training on theory and stuff, just whatever needed to make them useful on the battlefield), at less cost to the channeler. In a field medic scenario you'd need a low power, low complexity weave that can be taught to many people, and used repeatedly without botching or getting tired.Its like using only screwdrivers and duct tape to do repairs, while the five element healing is the full toolkit. Theres likely a lot of variation on Healing we don't see because most of the main characters don't do much healing, and Nynaeve solves illnesses with the Healing equivalent of brute force on top of using the complex weave. It also takes a monstrous amount of Power, which Nynaeve doesn't give a drat about. Also looking at the Tower's inheritance as battlefield mages rather than academic researchers puts their capabilities relative to the cultural channelers in a better light. They know a lot about immediate and combat magic. Moiraine despite being Blue(and thus politically oriented), boasts a wide array of battle magic, especially simple combat magic appropriate to small scale conflicts. Advanced combat magic, or even anti-channeler weaves are lost and not rediscovered due to the Oaths' ban on using the Power in battle, practical day-to-day useful weaves are likewise lost because they are secluded with an army of servants to do things(most weave discoveries we've seen so far involve a strongly Talented channeler and a problem they couldn't solve without said weave), the Wise Ones, the Kin and the Windfinders meanwhile, practice these nearly daily, so possess a great degree of capability there. And of course the purely investigatory or Power-crafting weaves are long lost, most of them seem to take a good bit of talent and too much time to be useful in a hot war.
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Mar 21, 2012 22:01
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veekie posted:Moiraine despite being Blue(and thus politically oriented), boasts a wide array of battle magic, especially simple combat magic appropriate to small scale conflicts. Not despite - because. The Greys are the politically oriented Ajah, whereas the Blues are devoted to causes. Sometimes you have to fight for a cause, so the Blues will all know some battle magic. Having chosen as her cause the finding the Dragon Reborn and guiding him to victory in Tar'mon Gaidon, Moiraine is really a Green in all but name anyway.
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Mar 21, 2012 23:50
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Jedit posted:It wasn't the magnitude of the injury, it was the time since it had happened. Moiraine says so explicitly. Triage. Not bein' a dick, I didn't know the meaning until I looked it up either and learning is fun!
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Mar 22, 2012 00:21
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wellwhoopdedooo posted:Triage. Not bein' a dick, I didn't know the meaning until I looked it up either and learning is fun! Don't worry, I know what it means too and it's not incorrect. The combat weave has the unfortunate side effect of killing the patient if the wound is too severe, and it also requires quite a bit of strength from the channeler making it. On the battlefield a channeler would divide the casualties into those who didn't need OP treatment and those who needed to be taken to a real Healer, with those who could be Healed and sent back out to fight in the middle.
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Mar 22, 2012 01:47
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Oh, you're willfully stupid. Got it.
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Mar 22, 2012 04:02
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The healing discussion is as fascinating microcosm of the power the Aes Sedai have lost over 3 centuries. It really does help to view this particular setting as a European-esque area of land that has been at war continuously for 3000 years. The point made about Aes Sedai as field medics holds a good deal of truth in that due to dwindling numbers and the need to teach novices and accepted what they know they'll need in a world full of Trollocs and hostile subjects, a great deal of the fancy dancy book learning had to go by the wayside in lieu of more pressing concerns. FYI I had forgotten how much I both liked and hated Matt's character in book 4. Although I do think we get a true feel for how his character is going to play out over the rest of the series. I can't wait until we can start discussing certain ter'angreals. This side of Rand is really refreshing after the last book made him seem kind is loopy.
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Mar 22, 2012 05:51
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wellwhoopdedooo posted:Oh, you're willfully stupid. Got it. What? He basically explained things along the lines of triage. Aes Sedai heal those most in need of it who will survive. They expend some energy on those who might be hopeless (presumably) and save the last of their energy for those who would likely get better via traditional healthcare practices. The specific order may be wrong, but the books themselves have a character specifically referring to Aes Sedai healing as comparable to battle triage. He's not being willfully ignorant, you're just being anal about definition specifics.
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Mar 22, 2012 06:00
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A Terrible Person posted:What? Exactly. Since learning is fun, here's the most basic method of triage as taken from the linked Wiki article: quote:At its most primitive, those responsible for the removal of the wounded from a battlefield or their care afterwards have divided victims into three categories: Now, consider that a channeler using the emergency weave on the battlefield isn't going to have much to offer in the way of care other than Healing. That changes the categories to: Those who are likely to live, even if they are not Healed; Those who are likely to die, even if they are Healed; Those for whom Healing might make a positive difference in outcome. Which is exactly what I said, in the order I said it.
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Mar 22, 2012 08:39
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I didn't want to get into a debate over the meaning of words, but whatever, I'll give it one last shot. Triage is the process of sorting, it's not the process of care. When you go to the emergency room, you are "triaged", usually by a nurse. The nurse is not treating you, they're deciding how soon you need care. That replacement you did, where you changed "care they receieve" into "Healing"? Well, you didn't replace the word "triage". It's not a semantics thing, you're saying one semi-related word means something completely different, like calling "driving your car" "paying your insurance bill". Hey guys, you want to pay our insurance bill across the country? First we'll pay our insurance bill down to Florida, and then we'll pay our insurance bill to the biggest ball of twine in Minnesota. I can't wait until we pay our insurance bill all the way to California. See? You can't just replace one word with another if they don't mean the same thing, or what you say ends up being nonsense. Okay, I'm done, if you want to sound like an idiot in the future that's your prerogative.
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Mar 22, 2012 13:48
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Aside from the current semantic argument, aren't some of these things spoilers? book 4 -onward We barely know about the wise ones, and don't yet know that they can channel. The kin come much later, so we don't even know that there are other major organized societies of channelers besides the Aes Sedai, Seanchan Slaves, and maybe a few well taught sea-folk
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Mar 22, 2012 16:29
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Recursive Expanse posted:Aside from the current semantic argument, aren't some of these things spoilers? Any reader of any fantasy series, though, from Book 1 as soon as you get the "Nynaeve can channel?? But the irony!" part, can tell that is foreshadowing the fact that every single special group of women in the world is going to have to do with the power. Seanchan don't like it, because they can do it. Sea Folk don't give rides to Aes Sedai... because they can do it. etc.
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Mar 23, 2012 00:45
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There fact that Wise Ones can channel is pretty heavily implied in Book 3. Rhuarc mentions that they have Dreaming powers (which, as far as we know at the time, has to do with the Power) and at least one of the other Aiel mention that one or two Wise ones are able to heal wounds so that it is as though they never happened.
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Mar 23, 2012 06:06
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Book 4 Spoiler: I had forgotten that Perrin gives Faile a taste of her own medicine. That felt so good after that spoiled little twit keeps berating him, not that he doesn't have his own reasons. Was it a spanking? I thought it was the first few times I read it but I can't remember now. Also, the death of Perrin's family is perfectly written. As someone who went through something similar, it is really easy to relate now. Excellent work on Jordan's part and one of sequences I most appreciated on the reread.
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Mar 23, 2012 16:44
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Hobbes24 posted:Book 4 Spoiler: I had forgotten that Perrin gives Faile a taste of her own medicine. That felt so good after that spoiled little twit keeps berating him, not that he doesn't have his own reasons. Was it a spanking? I thought it was the first few times I read it but I can't remember now. Also, the death of Perrin's family is perfectly written. As someone who went through something similar, it is really easy to relate now. Excellent work on Jordan's part and one of sequences I most appreciated on the reread. Definitely a spanking. I think she threatens to do the same thing to him later on in the book and it was obvious?
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Mar 23, 2012 17:10
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arioch posted:Definitely a spanking. I think she threatens to do the same thing to him later on in the book and it was obvious? I thought so. Can't imagine a character who deserved it more.
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Mar 23, 2012 18:44
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Hobbes24 posted:Book 4 Spoiler: I had forgotten that Perrin gives Faile a taste of her own medicine. That felt so good after that spoiled little twit keeps berating him, not that he doesn't have his own reasons. Was it a spanking? I thought it was the first few times I read it but I can't remember now. Also, the death of Perrin's family is perfectly written. As someone who went through something similar, it is really easy to relate now. Excellent work on Jordan's part and one of sequences I most appreciated on the reread. Its always spanking.
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Mar 23, 2012 21:25
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veekie posted:Its always spanking. Jordan apparently had some sort of spanking "thing." It's one of those things about the books that's really easy to miss until you catch onto it, and then suddenly it's spankings everywhere.
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Mar 23, 2012 21:44
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