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Tubgirl Cosplay posted:the court's rife with robots that are based on the same 'it works, don't question it' magic principles, just made out of metal not wood. Not at all. The original generation of robots were actually golems, but the ones since then have been entirely technological in nature.
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Mar 30, 2012 23:23
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1stGear posted:Is that how it works? Cool. Show me that. So next chapter when Donny waves his hand around and stops Jeanne from impaling Parley, it doesn't sound like an asspull. I agree that a plot device that operates without set boundaries is open to criticism. But the dilemma in my head is that there might be a reason that boundaries haven't been set yet, a reason that can't be revealed ahead of schedule because it's integral to something at the core of the story. It'd be a lot easier to debate this particular issue if GC were a finished story. But then why discuss anything. So I'm trusting Tom's writing skills for now. Y'all can feel free not to.
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Mar 30, 2012 23:30
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MikeJF posted:Not at all. The original generation of robots were actually golems, but the ones since then have been entirely technological in nature. The original generation, mass-produced by one of the leading members of the court, was entirely magical, and they went on to create a line of self-replicating robots nobody can comprehend the operation of (except kinda the one person who used the same principles to fix the explicitly magic robots), due to some some wierd properties not shared by scientifically comprehensible things. Given that 'technological' and 'magical' are just meaningless noises outside the context of 'comprehensible to humans', they're as magic as it comes. Ironic Twist posted:I agree that a plot device that operates without set boundaries is open to criticism. We can analyze, discuss, and react to things while still operating under the assumption that stuff gets resolved and the story, like, progresses, otherwise what's the thread even for other than burbling memes and injokes back and forth at each other Tubgirl Cosplay fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Mar 30, 2012 |
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Mar 30, 2012 23:32
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Tubgirl Cosplay posted:The original generation, mass-produced by one of the leading members of the court was entirely magical, and they went on to create a line of self-replicating robots nobody can comprehend the operation of (except kinda the one person who used the same principles to fix the explicitly magic robots), due to some some wierd properties not shared by scientifically comprehensible things. Given that 'technological' and 'magical' are just meaningless noises outside the context of 'comprehensible to humans', they're as magic as it comes. Not really. They just have really complex operating code. It's a copy of the original golemly instruction set, yeah, but it's interpreted on microchips. And everything else besides the operating code is totally generic advanced technology.
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Mar 30, 2012 23:35
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1stGear posted:Is that how it works? Cool. Show me that. So next chapter when Donny waves his hand around and stops Jeanne from impaling Parley, it doesn't sound like an asspull.
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Mar 30, 2012 23:36
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Tubgirl Cosplay posted:We can analyze, discuss, and react to things while still operating under the assumption that stuff gets resolved and the story, like, progresses, otherwise what's the thread even for other than burbling memes and injokes back and forth at each other Which is why I said "But then why discuss anything". I kinda caught myself in the middle of my post. It's difficult to criticize an in-progress work, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. Now I'm just reading through because I'm late to the discussion.
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Mar 30, 2012 23:40
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MikeJF posted:Not really. They just have really complex operating code. It's a copy of the original golemly instruction set, yeah, but it's interpreted on microchips. You realize microchips and computer code have blueprints, right? Like, you need to know how they operate and be able to communicate the basic principles to make one. They're understood things that can be described via language, which is for communicating ideas and not being some obfuscatory squiggles with inherent power over nature. That's how they're real things distinct from magical spellcasting. Ironic Twist posted:Which is why I said "But then why discuss anything". I kinda caught myself in the middle of my post. Cool, thought as much And yeah none of this is going to be terribly meaningful in another three-six months but if we were about saying/thinking things of lasting value why even post on a forum Tubgirl Cosplay fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Mar 30, 2012 |
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Mar 30, 2012 23:41
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Here's a point: So, say you're right, that Donny and Anja's computer program turns out to be more versatile and powerful than depicted right now. What, specifically, wouldn't make that a counterpart to Coyote's powers, which seem to border on omnipotency? If you're going to criticize one, criticize the other. Just because he's a god that does things on a whim doesn't mean he's neutral like Jones is. And I can understand the strong magic influence over the Court's technology considering A) the abilities that a lot of the Court's residents have, and B) the fact that not too long ago both sides were living together.
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Mar 30, 2012 23:58
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Tubgirl Cosplay posted:You realize microchips and computer code have blueprints, right? Like, you need to know how they operate and be able to communicate the basic principles to make one. They're understood things that can be described via language, which is for communicating ideas and not being some obfuscatory squiggles with inherent power over nature. That's how they're real things distinct from magical spellcasting. We've seen nothing magical or power over nature about the robot instruction set in its current form. It's heavily complex interpreted code written in a bizarre language that is currently not understood by any living person. Much like COBOL. But it doesn't have any magical effects when not inscribed onto a stone heart.
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Mar 30, 2012 23:58
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Donny and Anja have a magic computer that can do some things but not some other things.
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Mar 30, 2012 23:59
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Tubgirl Cosplay posted:You realize microchips and computer code have blueprints, right? Like, you need to know how they operate and be able to communicate the basic principles to make one. They're understood things that can be described via language, which is for communicating ideas and not being some obfuscatory squiggles with inherent power over nature. That's how they're real things distinct from magical spellcasting. 
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Mar 31, 2012 00:02
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Ironic Twist posted:Here's a point: I've already described how it's different from what Coyote does. We can be confident he won't do anything too useful with his vast powers because it would go against his basic nature to do so. He's an entity that established the current status quo aaaages ago and has done absolutely squat since - he theoretically could do anything but won't, which comes down to much the same thing. Certainly he won't help Antimony in any way that doesn't create more problems than it fixes, and has said as much. In many regards it's not fundamentally different from how most stories written under the assumption of a presence of a God (or gods) throughout history managed to have a plot that didn't end with the omnipotent swooping down and righting everything because they said so, except that Coyote is a bit more explicitly unhelpful. Donald is actively sympathetic to the protagonists, a normal (presumably) psychologically comprehensible human being in possession of undefined power, and generally has no currently offered reason to not turn his assets to resolving the issues of the plot. Thus, those reasons need to be clarified, how his magiputer either can't or won't do whatever needs doing. It's a different story if God is Daddy.
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Mar 31, 2012 00:11
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I think what we're going to get is general limitations with really fuzzy borders rather than an exact breakdown of the computer's functions. And that's exactly what we want. Reynardine is probably the best example here. We know he can take over the body of anything with eyes. But Tom got tired of people saying "what about a potato or a hurricane or a picture of someone" and shut down discussion on that because a) answering the same question with tiny variations over and over again is maddening b) it kills the mystery which magical things are supposed to possess. Similarly, his shapeshifting. He can clearly play with the body a bit, but he can't just become three hundred feet tall or he would have done that in several situations they've been in; in fact, it seems like we've already seen about what he can do with that body. It has to be thematically appropriate as a wolf. (Even the vaguely humanoid muscleman form was basically a wolfman, as in your usual werewolf movies.) So we don't have hard and fast guidelines about Reynardine's powers, but that doesn't mean Reynardine's powers are unlimited; they're limited by theme and context. I would surmise the computer will have the same kinds of limits. The fact that he has handled Reynardine in this way is also a good indicator that Tom knows what he's doing and will continue to know what he's doing with the story at future points, so I really wouldn't worry about it yet. So far every apparent superpower has had a limitation built into it somewhere, apart from Coyote who appears to only be limited by being a jackass with no attention span.
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Mar 31, 2012 00:18
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MikeJF posted:We've seen nothing magical or power over nature about the robot instruction set in its current form. It's heavily complex interpreted code written in a bizarre language that is currently not understood by any living person. Much like COBOL. But it doesn't have any magical effects when not inscribed onto a stone heart. It allows something shaped like a microchip and given any old body made of basic machine parts to become a sentient living organism. That's not normal microchip behavior, I guess I've gotta explain that. They don't get the full living-sculpture treatment because none of the original robots were wizards on the level of Diego, and had to take some mechanical shortcuts, and possibly just as much because the Court will apparently accept anything so long as it has a superficial gloss of "SCIENCE!!!" over all the spellery. Thus, presumably, why anyone would bother calling a teleporting forcefield-generating soultrap a "computer". Doing some things with normal physics doesn't make the unwritable unknowable Pinnochio inscription a mundane thing like COBOL. Tubgirl Cosplay fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Mar 31, 2012 |
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Mar 31, 2012 00:24
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You know, I think some people don't understand one of the fundamental concepts of a cold war is that both sides are on relatively equal footing militarily and don't want to be obliterated by the other. If the Court didn't have superscience that could step to literal magic and forest gods and such-- if they didn't have a deterrent of some sort to make the forest coexist with them and actually discuss things rather than just do whatever they want-- I suspect it would be a much shorter story.
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Mar 31, 2012 01:38
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Thinking more on the capabilities of this computer-thing (I'd rather not bother with the silly debate about whether or not Tom will suddenly turn into a bad writer because his characters have magic powers), it could be possible that for some reason or another, it can only create barriers that affect physical force when in close contact with Reynardine. Unless there's another example of Donny fzzak-ing a barrier into existence that I'm forgetting about.
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Mar 31, 2012 01:46
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MoonwalkInvincible posted:Thinking more on the capabilities of this computer-thing (I'd rather not bother with the silly debate about whether or not Tom will suddenly turn into a bad writer because his characters have magic powers), it could be possible that for some reason or another, it can only create barriers that affect physical force when in close contact with Reynardine. I don't think Reynardine had anything to do with the barrier Donald put up, he was just positioning himself to protect Annie and the barriers went up between him and Ysengrin. We have seen Anja create etheric barriers before (that flashback chapter with the bound dogs). Given that she helped create the "computer", it isn't a stretch to imagine that she programmed the ability.
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Mar 31, 2012 02:09
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I think a lot of you guys are jumping the gun on this one. Something that could be used poorly by a bad writer isn't a bad thing in and of itself. I'll call it a Deus Ex Machina when it's used as a Deus Ex Machina.
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Mar 31, 2012 02:18
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I'm betting the higher-ups in the Court have something that could neutralize the computer.
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Mar 31, 2012 02:29
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Tubgirl Cosplay posted:It allows something shaped like a microchip and given any old body made of basic machine parts to become a sentient living organism. That's not normal microchip behavior, I guess I've gotta explain that. Not our microchips, no, but court microchips I can easily accept doing that. Ah well, if you want to ascribe it to magic, that you're choice, but I'm happy to see it as interpreted code running on very advanced computer technology. Tubgirl Cosplay posted:the Court will apparently accept anything so long as it has a superficial gloss of "SCIENCE!!!" over all the spellery. Thus, presumably, why anyone would bother calling a teleporting forcefield-generating soultrap a "computer". Anja has specifically said that the court doesn't accept her computer because of its etheric basis. They accept it as a necessary evil to bind Reynardine but don't follow up on it because it's not 'real science'. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Mar 31, 2012 |
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Mar 31, 2012 02:31
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Even if the computer means omnipotence for Anja and Don (highly unlikely), the computer cannot solve the comic because the conflicts in the comic are emotional rather than spiritual. The computer could never be used to fix the problem through deus ex machina unless it teleports Anthony to Being-A-Good-Dad-Land, or opened a wall to the Stop-Conflict-Between-Technology-And-Magic-Instantly-Area. Also Coyote shrunk the moon down to the size of Annie's hand without even trying because he is a god of potentially unlimited power, and you're complaining about a computer which can move a pipe? Now stop criticising Tom for - what are even the criticisms here? Bad writing in potentia? Poor plot resolution, except it never happened, and will probably never happen, and everybody is getting in a twist over nothing? Let's all chill and be friends.
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Mar 31, 2012 09:49
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I view the computer as a kind of like a blinker stone for Donald a focus for channelling the runic magic system that we've seen in use by other characters. Another character could summon objects, or cast protection, or bind others, by drawing runes with chalk (Eglamore), painting them on the walls (Reynard's Cell) or drawing them in the air (Brinnie). I'd say it is quite limited, Brinnie could probably draw any rune at the drop of the hat, while Donald is limited to those he and Anja has coded for use. But if Tom wanted to have problems solved via Deus Ex Machina, he could have Annie go to the library and look up the Rune of Good Parenting.
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Mar 31, 2012 11:14
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Tom, I love your comic and will support it financially as soon as things stabilize on this end. You're a great storyteller and an above-average artist. Will you ever sell prints of individual comics?
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Mar 31, 2012 12:02
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Anja and Donald have done a lot of work for the Court and the current functions of the computer that have been shown are a result of that. The computer was originally built with the express purpose of detaining Renard when they needed and it's been developed from there. There are other functions which have not been shown yet and I've known from the start that people on the internet hate things that are not explicitly spelled out, but that's not really what the comic is about. The closest thing you're going to get to a laundry list of limitations and abilities of the computer is when Kat eventually makes her own later in the story. I hope people can bear with it til then. The etherically sided ability of stopping a being like Renard led to the development of barriers based on Anja's (unexamined) magical skills that she showed in the Ties chapter. Both Donald and Anja can conjure these barriers at will anywhere inside the Court. Anja can use her magic anywhere in or out of the Court but does not. The portable door and the transportation of objects "in stock" work on the same principle as each other (the temporary relocation of matter) and also work only within the confines of the Court. Human teleportation is "rare" according to Jones, but not unheard of, which is why Parley is free to walk around and do what she likes instead of being subject to many medical experiments. I'd hoped that the fact that Donny didn't just zap Annie and himself to the rooftop would indicate that Anja's computer is not capable of teleportation of living matter. The computer can also perform general tasks such as attempting to trace a phone call. It also has a shopping list app, and an app for taking notes which was a good idea but they never end up using it.
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Mar 31, 2012 14:01
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Oh, and the thing about the robots; I was trying to convey that the current robots were the result of a collection of magical beings (the old golem robots) left to their own devices who developed a language and structure far beyond human understanding. The "chips" that essentially give life to a mechanically sound chassis is not based on current, human technology. You can call this magic if you like, but then you'd also have to call Data from Star Trek magic, and that's not a debate I'm intending to explore with my comic. People have called me a bad and lazy writer since the day I started the comic, but that's fine, I know this is the internet and I am not perfect. I hope people at least enjoy the story. A student posted:Will you ever sell prints of individual comics? I don't know about offering every page as a print, but I will be having some new prints based on some of my favourite pages up on Toptoco any day now!
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Mar 31, 2012 14:11
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Tea-san posted:Kat eventually makes her own later in the story.  This is one of the best things I've read all day.
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Mar 31, 2012 14:12
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Tea-san posted:The computer can also perform general tasks such as attempting to trace a phone call. It also has a shopping list app, and an app for taking notes which was a good idea but they never end up using it.
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Mar 31, 2012 14:43
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Tea-san posted:People have called me a bad and lazy writer since the day I started the comic, but that's fine, I know this is the internet and I am not perfect. I hope people at least enjoy the story. The thing I like most about this comic is that when I go back to re-read things I notice stuff that ties into the more recent chapters. The amount of planning/foresight that you obviously put into it makes it great. The story itself isn't so bad either. 
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Mar 31, 2012 14:45
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To piggyback that, DO you have all your events/timeline all mapped out somewhere on a piece of paper or whiteboard or anything or is it all in your head?Tea-san posted:People have called me a bad and lazy writer since the day I started the comic, but that's fine, I know this is the internet and I am not perfect. I hope people at least enjoy the story. Well you got to quit your job and work full time on your comic so you must be doing something right  Tea-san posted:I don't know about offering every page as a print, but I will be having some new prints based on some of my favourite pages up on Toptoco any day now! There are so many Coyote pages I would make a print of. He's easily one of my favorite fictional characters in any media. Rumda posted:look at the Ysengrin page there are clearly 3 layers of shielding and one has been shattered I think its a safe bet to assume a tangible hologram is what is stopping the force of the blow I never noticed that before, and went to look at it, and sure enough he does break through one of the barriers. And of course since it's Coyote's introduction chapters I had to read through the whole thing again! http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=275 This is one of my favorite pages. Everything you need to know about Coyote is right there in panel five.
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Mar 31, 2012 14:52
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The shattering shield is very cool.
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Mar 31, 2012 15:22
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Gunnerkrigg has always been (to me) a comic that was built around stories, relationships and interpersonal conflict. In that regard, I don't really worry about advanced computers magically solving problems, because as the robots have established, feelings are beyond their RAM capacity.
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Mar 31, 2012 18:39
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Tea-san posted:People have called me a bad and lazy writer since the day I started the comic, but that's fine, I know this is the internet and I am not perfect. I hope people at least enjoy the story. In my defense, I was calling the concept that "sometimes magic is just magic" lazy writing, not specifically describing you. I think you are a very good writer and knowing that you've planned things out is reassuring
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Mar 31, 2012 18:51
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Fecha posted:Gunnerkrigg has always been (to me) a comic that was built around stories, relationships and interpersonal conflict. In that regard, I don't really worry about advanced computers magically solving problems, because as the robots have established, feelings are beyond their RAM capacity. The robots say that, but that's not really true, is it? Robot, King Markerface, and the original series robot from Chapter 33 all seem to display deep emotion, and even a lot of the ones wandering around the court react to negative or positive stimulus the same way the humans at the court do. It could just be that they don't feel emotion, but only respond to it, but it seems as though at least some of the Models at the court are capable of holding the same basic emotions as any other 'lifeform'.
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Mar 31, 2012 18:59
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Rumda posted:
I just made the most hideous sound on my end. It sounded like a cross between a dying dog and a deflating balloon. Dammit now I can't wait to see this.
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Mar 31, 2012 19:45
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Fecha posted:Gunnerkrigg has always been (to me) a comic that was built around stories, relationships and interpersonal conflict. In that regard, I don't really worry about advanced computers magically solving problems, because as the robots have established, feelings are beyond their RAM capacity. Uh, Robot just had a scene where he realizes he loves his good friend Shadow. That seems to be a pretty explicit confirmation that robots can at least feel love.
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Mar 31, 2012 19:51
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They can also feel sadness. How did you forget the saddest face?
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Mar 31, 2012 19:52
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Yeah, I guess my phrasing was wrong, but my inner point was that seem to be "discovering" feelings and they aren't going to be deux-ex-solving emotional problems anytime soon. In fact, there's something a little unsettling about Robot's feelings.
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Mar 31, 2012 20:02
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I just got the first Gunnerkrigg Book and I am very excited to show it to every other human I know! I do wonder if the 2nd one will be back in print soon? I got the first one from Topatoco.
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Mar 31, 2012 20:54
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I don't even remember if it ever appeared in the comic like this, but is there an image of Annie's blinker stone signal somewhere? Like, from straight on, not at an angle? Tom, I'd appreciate a big version of that glyph for like a background or something.
100 HOGS AGREE fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Mar 31, 2012 |
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Mar 31, 2012 21:14
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I got my Volumes 1 & 3 from Topatoco last week. They're very good, though a bit short on spine margin. Congrats on going full time! Also looks like GC is easily getting into the semifinal of the comicmix poll.
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