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Phlogistic posted:I've seen a lot of complaints about having to grind in the Etrian Odyssey games before, and they remind me of the grinding complaints about Dragon Quest in this very thread. Sure, you can grind your level up and eventually brute force your way through, but if you play carefully and plan well then grinding should never, ever be necessary in the main game. Just do the bar quests and work your way up/down steadily. Is there some popular JRPG where strategy doesn't exist and every fight is trivial or something? I don't get where people get the idea that any fight that's remotely hard means you have no choice but to grind.
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Apr 3, 2012 08:09
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HondaCivet posted:Is there some popular JRPG where strategy doesn't exist and every fight is trivial or something? I don't get where people get the idea that any fight that's remotely hard means you have no choice but to grind. Dragon Quest is a game where strategy doesn't exist and you have to grind?
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Apr 3, 2012 08:24
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HondaCivet posted:Is there some popular JRPG where strategy doesn't exist and every fight is trivial or something? The Final Fantasy series, for a start. e: That's a bit unnecessarily glib, so to clarify, I don't remember ever having trouble with an FF game. Their difficulty is so low and their battles so easily reduced to just mashing Attack over and over that they definitely feel trivial in comparison to pretty much any other major JRPG. Stelas fucked around with this message at 09:09 on Apr 3, 2012 |
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Apr 3, 2012 09:05
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Stelas posted:The Final Fantasy series, for a start. You don't ever have to grind in them, though, which was kind of the other half of the question.
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Apr 3, 2012 09:11
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Defiance Industries posted:You don't ever have to grind in them, though, which was kind of the other half of the question. It's possible to avoid almost all battles except for boss battles in FF13, and if you tweak your paradigms well you can even pull it off for the first 90% of the game. EDIT: Didn't grind at all in FF10 either, or FF8, and I've never played a quick run through FF6 but I know that it's possible and even popular. Is there a modern FF that requires grinding?
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Apr 3, 2012 09:14
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Defiance Industries posted:You don't ever have to grind in them, though, which was kind of the other half of the question. I think it's still relevant because I think the ease with which you can breeze through an FF game has kind of bred a certain way of playing. Even now I often feel like I'm playing a game wrong if I have to actually use any consumables or MP to get through a dungeon, and the natural kneejerk is 'gotta make numbers bigger then'.
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Apr 3, 2012 09:15
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Stelas posted:I think it's still relevant because I think the ease with which you can breeze through an FF game has kind of bred a certain way of playing. Even now I often feel like I'm playing a game wrong if I have to actually use any consumables or MP to get through a dungeon, and the natural kneejerk is 'gotta make numbers bigger then'. I think that's because most challenge in JRPGs is... optional, I guess? Any fight that seems hard can generally be overcome by grinding out a few new levels or exploiting some other system, except for poo poo that's up near the level cap.
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Apr 3, 2012 09:18
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I loved the hell out of Xenogears, one of my favorite games of all time, up there with Chrono Trigger....how bad is XS in comparison? 
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Apr 3, 2012 09:35
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Dolphin Fetus posted:I loved the hell out of Xenogears, one of my favorite games of all time, up there with Chrono Trigger....how bad is XS in comparison? Xenosaga 1 had a decent battle system and some pretty solid characters marred by a pretty ridiculous and incomplete plot with some extremely dodgy scenes in it and a main character who is almost but not quite completely unlikable. Xenosaga 2 decided that Xenosaga 1 was too exciting in all respects and introduced a super-slow battle system and a completely forgettable plot arc. The main character graduates to wholly unlikable. Xenosaga 3 turned around and went 'you know what, gently caress this, we've had enough of taking things so seriously' and suddenly it was magical. The most insane plot twists outside of a Star Ocean game combine with a whole bunch of fun little asides (like finally getting to use the bumbling male scientist who's been with you from game 1 in battle) and a battle system that's entirely focused on speed and flashy supermoves. It was a breath of fresh air. e: spelling Stelas fucked around with this message at 14:02 on Apr 3, 2012 |
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Apr 3, 2012 10:02
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Dolphin Fetus posted:I loved the hell out of Xenogears, one of my favorite games of all time, up there with Chrono Trigger....how bad is XS in comparison? What Stelas said, also there is so much crap thrown in your way to throw you off the plot in 1 and 2 (not much of it fun), and 3 has a pretty complete recap of both. So, uh, just get 3.
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Apr 3, 2012 10:10
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Don't worry about missing out on minor details of the plot by not playing the first two. There's also a bunch of foreshadowing in the first two games that never come to fruition since episode 3 had to wrap up what was supposed to be like 6 or 8 games. The only thing you'll miss is a joke at the very end of 3 that references the first game. Also Albido may be my favorite JRPG villain simply because his descent into madness is basically "  What do you mean other people can't detach their limbs and not die!?
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Apr 3, 2012 11:45
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I still think Xenosaga 1 is worth playing. For one, it's the only game that had Yasunori Mitsuda. 2 is very awful though.
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Apr 3, 2012 13:57
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Nate RFB posted:I still think Xenosaga 1 is worth playing. For one, it's the only game that had Yasunori Mitsuda. 2 is very awful though. This is the game that made me realize that I will enjoy even the crappiest of games if the music is good.
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Apr 3, 2012 15:12
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Nate RFB posted:I still think Xenosaga 1 is worth playing. For one, it's the only game that had Yasunori Mitsuda. 2 is very awful though. I have such a love/hate relationship with XS1. I start the game and I get sucked into the setting and all the little details. Then Ziggy is introduced and I think to myself, "This is awesome! Why on earth do I look back on this game with disdain?" Then we get MOMO's intro scene. Somehow I always forget how creepy the game is. 
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Apr 3, 2012 17:03
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I just got Golden Sun: Dark Dawn as a gift. I've played through GS 1, but not GS: The Lost Age. Am I going to miss anything if I don't play Lost Age before Dark Dawn?
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Apr 3, 2012 23:52
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You don't really grind much in EO3 anyway. You just do the sea minigame and reap all the massive rewards. Sometimes you need some extra money and you run the gathering team for 5-10 minutes later in the game. Post-game requires a bit more though if you missed some key abilities. HondaCivet posted:Is there some popular JRPG where strategy doesn't exist and every fight is trivial or something? I don't get where people get the idea that any fight that's remotely hard means you have no choice but to grind. Post games are usually the wild west though. Rascyc fucked around with this message at 00:08 on Apr 4, 2012 |
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Apr 4, 2012 00:06
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XS1 has a few okay dungeons and a pretty interesting battle system, and great music. The story is mostly pap but it has a few interesting ideas and a (mostly) good cast. I thought XS2 had interesting ideas, but was ultimately far more flawed than XS1. As for XS3, I never managed to play it. I own it, and I've played about one hour of it. My friend highly suggested it, but I think that either my tastes changed - well, not really, as I always found Xenosaga series to be average - or something because the game felt so outdated and I never had any resolve to play beyond the first hour. By this time, I had played the ps2 SMT titles, Suikoden V, FFXII, Valkyrie Profile 2, and more. I couldn't sit down and "enjoy" something like Xenosaga, I needed more.
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Apr 4, 2012 00:11
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TooManyUzukis posted:This is the game that made me realize that I will enjoy even the crappiest of games if the music is good. I have hard time remembering what songs Xenosaga had besides that drat battle theme. It was good the first couple times, but hearing it for every boss fight (except the final boss) really drove me nuts.
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Apr 4, 2012 00:52
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MockingQuantum posted:I just got Golden Sun: Dark Dawn as a gift. I've played through GS 1, but not GS: The Lost Age. Am I going to miss anything if I don't play Lost Age before Dark Dawn? No, because like the previous games Dark Dawn will not shut up while telling you almost negative amounts of information and then arbitrarily retconning everything it said, ignoring all logic the game has established, or stretching the concept of tenuousness and chance beyond their breaking point.
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Apr 4, 2012 01:41
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For all it's faults, XS2 almost completely discards Shion, who is thoroughly unlikeable throughout the entire first game, in favor of Junior and the URTV plot and gave Ziggy his own subplot and a nemesis. All good things. Shion should have stayed on the character scrap heap, but no.
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Apr 4, 2012 06:38
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Sir Unimaginative posted:What Stelas said, also there is so much crap thrown in your way to throw you off the plot in 1 and 2 (not much of it fun), and 3 has a pretty complete recap of both. Agreeing with this, as an actual fan of the Xenosaga series, just get the third game.
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Apr 4, 2012 08:08
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MockingQuantum posted:I just got Golden Sun: Dark Dawn as a gift. I've played through GS 1, but not GS: The Lost Age. Am I going to miss anything if I don't play Lost Age before Dark Dawn? You definitely don't. There's an ingame encyclopedia on all the things you may not understand, and the characters recap everything to the point of tedium anyway. But don't let this turn you off on the game, it's pretty fun if you can stand lengthy dialogue sequences (which you frankly should if you're playing JRPGs).
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Apr 4, 2012 08:30
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Amppelix posted:it's pretty fun if you can stand lengthy dialogue sequences (which you frankly should if you're playing JRPGs). C'mon now, man, there's "people expositing at length" and then there's "a cutscene in the Golden Sun series". Those are two entirely different levels of horseshit, and the latter usually contradicts itself and/or goes nowhere in the process.
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Apr 4, 2012 08:33
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So what do people here think of Baten Kaitos? The first oen, not Origins. (havent' played Origins yet) I thought it was a fun little game with a wonderful soundtrack and a really beautiful world. It took a while for the story to get going but I liked most of the twists the game offered up.
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Apr 4, 2012 09:56
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Baten Kaitos was creative to the point of virtual unplayability. You may be interested in this Let's Play of it.
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Apr 4, 2012 10:00
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I enjoyed every entry in the Xenosaga series at the time I played them, but they are so not Xenogears. Even XS2 was a blast for me - I may be the only person on the planet who enjoyed the slower battles. They felt a bit more tactical in how you had to exploit, expose and attack weaknesses or get you rear end shredded. I don't think they've aged particularly well and I'm not sure I could play them today but I have completely fond memories of all three entries. I wish someone would release the OST to XS2 because I loved that soundtrack. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_TXraj4mvs is a great example.
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Apr 4, 2012 13:19
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Bongo Bill posted:Baten Kaitos was creative to the point of virtual unplayability. You may be interested in this Let's Play of it. I'm actually following it already. I'm not sure how it was overly-creative though. It seems to have pretty standard RPG elements in most areas. Levantine posted:I enjoyed every entry in the Xenosaga series at the time I played them, but they are so not Xenogears. Even XS2 was a blast for me - I may be the only person on the planet who enjoyed the slower battles. They felt a bit more tactical in how you had to exploit, expose and attack weaknesses or get you rear end shredded. Wow, Xenosaga talk and just as I enter the thread! I have been a Xenosaga fan since I first played Episode 1 many years ago. I had not yet played Xenogears and I definitely admit Gears is a better game than any of the Trilogy but I still love Saga quite a lot. I agree with you on the slower battles being just fine. In fact, after repeated playthroughs of Episode 3, I've come to rather dislike it. They simplified and sped up the combat so much that it's painfully generic and ridiculously easy. I just find it a chore to really get trough these days. Mostly I rewatch cutscenes on YouTube. Might be some nostalgia talking but Episode 1 is my favorite.
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Apr 4, 2012 13:40
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NikkolasKing posted:I'm actually following it already. I really liked XS1 but it is just so cutscene heavy that it doesn't feel like it stands up on replays. I like that the mech customization got a little more indepth in later games as well. I really wish we could get a spiritual successor in the vein of XG/XS on modern systems with modern conceits - after seeing Xenoblade I have no doubt Monolithsoft has the touch.
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Apr 4, 2012 13:48
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Mill Village posted:I have hard time remembering what songs Xenosaga had besides that drat battle theme. It was good the first couple times, but hearing it for every boss fight (except the final boss) really drove me nuts. Something I was thinking about recently was how it would be cool if more RPGs had multiple battle themes just to stop people getting annoyed or bored with the music. Earthbound, Final Fantasy Tactics and The World Ends With You are the only games I've played where there's more than just Regular Battle Theme and Boss Battle Theme. It's kind of a wasted opportunity really, I'd rather have four or five shorter battle themes or variations on the same theme than one longer one you probably won't even hear all of.
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Apr 4, 2012 17:46
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joff_b posted:It's kind of a wasted opportunity really, I'd rather have four or five shorter battle themes or variations on the same theme than one longer one you probably won't even hear all of. Listening to Persona 4's battle theme was excruciating, especially because the beginning was the worst part. "Now I FACE out, I HOLD out, I REACH out to the truth *unintelligible*" My friend was in the room as I played, and every time I got into a battle, he groaned. Tales of the Abyss also changes its battle theme about two thirds of the way through the game.
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Apr 4, 2012 17:49
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Oh come on, how can you go into a battle in P4 and not just sing along? "I reach out to the truth of my life seeking to seize on the whole moment, yeah!" That said, yeah, more RPGs seriously need more than one regular battle theme. I also love it when there's some area(s) where the area music just keeps on playing throughout the battles.
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Apr 4, 2012 17:51
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Admiral H. Curtiss posted:Oh come on, how can you go into a battle in P4 and not just sing along? "I reach out to the truth of my life seeking to seize on the whole moment, yeah!" I did. Then after the hundredth time I wanted to die. It just has a really, really bad start. The rest of the song I like, the instrumental version of the song I like. But the start of the vocal version makes me feel like I'm in a car that's constantly starting and hitting the brakes.
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Apr 4, 2012 17:53
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Well alright. Since you mentioned Abyss, Tales games usually do a pretty decent job at mixing it up, either changing the battle (and world map!) music through story progress or having different songs for different areas. In Graces, for example, each country gets a separate regular battle theme, which is really appreciated. They also like to have a couple different boss battle themes, like one or two regular ones and then another per significant antagonist or faction. It's nice.
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Apr 4, 2012 17:59
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Levantine posted:I really liked XS1 but it is just so cutscene heavy that it doesn't feel like it stands up on replays. I like that the mech customization got a little more indepth in later games as well. I really wish we could get a spiritual successor in the vein of XG/XS on modern systems with modern conceits - after seeing Xenoblade I have no doubt Monolithsoft has the touch. Well, right now they're developing a game for the Wii U, and they were hiring a mech designer for it. We can only hope. http://www.siliconera.com/2011/06/24/xenoblade-developer-monolith-soft-working-on-wii-u-title/ joff_b posted:Something I was thinking about recently was how it would be cool if more RPGs had multiple battle themes just to stop people getting annoyed or bored with the music. Earthbound, Final Fantasy Tactics and The World Ends With You are the only games I've played where there's more than just Regular Battle Theme and Boss Battle Theme. Be careful what you wish for. Beyond the Beyond had tons of different battle themes, and the overstimulation caused characters to lapse into seizures every minute or so.
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Apr 4, 2012 18:00
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joff_b posted:Something I was thinking about recently was how it would be cool if more RPGs had multiple battle themes just to stop people getting annoyed or bored with the music. Earthbound, Final Fantasy Tactics and The World Ends With You are the only games I've played where there's more than just Regular Battle Theme and Boss Battle Theme. The Fire Emblem and Ogre Battle games do this fairly well. There are quite a few that have two or three battle themes based on your current location, the type of enemy you're fighting, your party leader, or other factors, but there's still just one obvious "main" one. I know that the Paper Mario series gives each boss their own theme, but still just uses the one for common battles.
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Apr 4, 2012 18:02
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Resonance of Fate was the best about battle music. They just had dungeon music and where ever you were, you would get different battle music based on the dungeon music.
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Apr 4, 2012 18:07
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quote:It's kind of a wasted opportunity really, I'd rather have four or five shorter battle themes or variations on the same theme than one longer one you probably won't even hear all of. That's exactly what SMT:Nocturne did and it's great. I think they have... about 6 regular battle songs? They're only like a minute or two long at tops, but that's about all you need really. I've seen a fair number of games that have two songs, but it's pretty rare when they have any more than that. RPGs only having one battle theme these days is both inexcusable and intolerable. Especially in a game like Strange Journey. Which is around 60 hours long. And fighting is about 90% of what you do. Knight in the Nightmare, while only sort of an RPG, has a different song for almost every single chapter... so like ~30-40 different songs. It's more vaguely similar to Tactics Ogre or that like though. Morpheus posted:I did. Then after the hundredth time I wanted to die. The P4 battle theme is seriously my least favorite battle theme in any RPG I've played, it's so awful. But yes, the biggest problem is the start of it. They manage to more or less fix it for the fighting game at least: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBIG6PVVycY Also they changed it for the PSP revision so there's always that.
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Apr 4, 2012 18:14
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The Tales games also play with multiple battle themes. The main one tends to change at the halfway point I think. EDIT: I have played through P4 like three times and I still like the main battle theme. I think it's pretty exciting! I still hum or sing along as late as the final dungeon!
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Apr 4, 2012 18:32
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Some of the Graces battle themes are pretty bad though. Thank god for costume music changes! I wish games would just give users more control over the music in general. Music customization in games is probably my greatest dream in gaming. For the most part I tend to enjoy the games I pick simply for the music, but I hate how there's always those 2 or 3 tracks that you actively hate.
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Apr 4, 2012 18:42
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Rascyc posted:Some of the Graces battle themes are pretty bad though. Thank god for costume music changes! Yes! More of that would be awesome. That's why the modern SRW games are so great - you like Sure Promise? Make sure you hear it with every attack or even on the map!
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Apr 4, 2012 18:44
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