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Started exactly one month ago, on book 8. Holy crap this series never ends.
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Apr 11, 2012 14:47
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Stim0r posted:Started exactly one month ago, on book 8. Holy crap this series never ends. Actually it ends in January. I feel like we need to restart the calendar... 2013CE feels so inadequate, in the face of such an internet changing event. All the forums where people debate theories will suddenly have no purpose... I kinda want Sanderson to decide that the last book needs to be split into three volumes again to stretch it out more.
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Apr 11, 2012 15:31
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The Lord Bude posted:Actually it ends in January. May not be to book 13 by January....I'm burning out with the pace of reading I've kept this last month.
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Apr 11, 2012 16:24
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Audio books have gotten me through my burnout and I'm glad I did because I'd forgotten so many Book 7  moments. Good lord this book goes crazy and I'm only around 80% through!
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Apr 12, 2012 02:22
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Campbell posted:Audio books have gotten me through my burnout and I'm glad I did because I'd forgotten so many Book 7 It's all blurring together. I couldn't tell you what plot twist occurs in what book any more if you mentioned one.
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Apr 12, 2012 04:57
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I just started reading book 6. Damer Flinn used to be a soldier in the Queen's Guards. But then he took a Murandian lance in his thigh. Doesn't he turn out to be one of the more bad-rear end Asha-man? Or does he get killed in a book or two?
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Apr 12, 2012 20:06
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I just caught up to the thread in book 5. It's amazing how much less annoying Nynaeve seems now than when I was reading this series in high school a decade ago, and how much more bad-rear end Mat is than I remember him being. I am eagerly anticipating reaching my favorite remembered scene in the series, book 6's climax, the hilarious Rand-stuck-in-a-box segment.
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Apr 12, 2012 20:41
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Kaninrail posted:I just caught up to the thread in book 5. It's amazing how much less annoying Nynaeve seems now than when I was reading this series in high school a decade ago, and how much more bad-rear end Mat is than I remember him being. The thread just now finished book 4, I think. And up to there, I would agree with you. Unfortunately, Nynaeve has taken a bit of a turn towards more annoying in book 5, but that's a pale shadow of how completely insufferable Elayne has become. I still can't decide whether Egwene has turned Wise-One-awesome or Wise-One-annoying. But Mat just keeps getting cooler and cooler. I just read the part where he gets drawn into leading a large portion of the troops in the battle against the Shaido outside Cairhien. End of Book 4 chat: Throughout TSR, Rand keeps talking to himself about how he can't let Moiraine or anyone else catch on to his crazy plan, how no one will be able to guess what he's going to do, etc. Was he just referring to making it rain at the big council? He can't possibly be referring to Travelling to Rhuidean to battle Asmodean, since he didn't know that was going to happen. Or was he referring to the plan he puts into action in book 5, taking the Aiel beyond the Dragonwall to conquer the world?
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Apr 12, 2012 21:42
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werdnam posted:End of Book 4 chat: Throughout TSR, Rand keeps talking to himself about how he can't let Moiraine or anyone else catch on to his crazy plan, how no one will be able to guess what he's going to do, etc. Was he just referring to making it rain at the big council? He can't possibly be referring to Travelling to Rhuidean to battle Asmodean, since he didn't know that was going to happen. Or was he referring to the plan he puts into action in book 5, taking the Aiel beyond the Dragonwall to conquer the world? No. Read the beginning of book 4 again--Lanfear explicitly offers him the end-of-book scenario in that meeting, the opportunity to study with one of the weaker male Forsaken. Rand was completely expecting the Forsaken showdown at the end of book 4.
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Apr 12, 2012 22:11
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werdnam posted:Or was he referring to the plan he puts into action in book 5, taking the Aiel beyond the Dragonwall to conquer the world? I assumed it was this part since his questions from the door way lead him there.
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Apr 12, 2012 22:15
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arioch posted:Read the beginning of book 4 again--Lanfear explicitly offers him the end-of-book scenario in that meeting, the opportunity to study with one of the weaker male Forsaken. Oh, that's right. Rand does tell Lanfear that he predicted he'd be targeted by the Forsaken as he crossed the Waste, and it's made pretty clear that he knows the wagons have Darkfriends and Forsaken. Makes sense. But wow, that's crafty. How do we get from "I just want to hide so I don't kill my friends" Rand in The Great Hunt, to crazy paranoid prophecy-forcing Rand in The Dragon Reborn, to sneaky crafty "I'm going to lay a trap for one of the Forsaken" in The Shadow Rising? I dig the new Rand, but that's quite some character growth in the span of a couple books.
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Apr 12, 2012 22:50
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On my re-read, I have come to think that he isn't just expecting the Forsaken showdown in Book 4, he was, I think, actively planning to sever Asmodean from the Dark one and force him to teach him. But I think the plan he can't let Moirane and such know about is his plan to cleanse saidin, which with hindsight he already seems to have formulated
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Apr 13, 2012 02:38
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Prison Warden posted:On my re-read, I have come to think that he isn't just expecting the Forsaken showdown in Book 4, he was, I think, actively planning to sever Asmodean from the Dark one and force him to teach him. Also, I don't think he comes up with the plan to cleanse Saidin until Book 7, when he gets wounded by Fain in the same place as his would from the Dark One, and the two evils kind of fight each other. Maybe he wanted to do it before, but until then I don't think he had a plan.
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Apr 13, 2012 03:45
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Ani posted:
Possible spoilers from book 12 maybe: He definitely had the idea before because we can tell from inference, I think, that one of his questions to the Finn was something along the lines of "How do I cleanse Saidin?" That combined with how he reacts to the Chodean Kal keys just makes me think he already had at least the basics of his plan down.
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Apr 13, 2012 04:04
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I always thought he got an assload more information than most people get out of the Prophecies, up to knowing specific events were going to happen, or specific things had to be done. And then he got a few even more definite answers / puzzle pieces from the Finn. He played his second encounter with them like a fiddle. Or a harp.
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Apr 13, 2012 04:41
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Half way into book 8, and I kinda realized that the two evils fighting each other in Rand's wound would have something to do with his outbursts to Asmodean about cleansing the Male Half. The spoilers I couldn't help reading here confirmed it. Can't help but feel 
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Apr 13, 2012 05:05
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edit: Seems it's narrated by Kramer and Reading who did the Codex Alera, so I know the reading will be good, but what is the story about?
SageSepth fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Apr 13, 2012 |
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Apr 13, 2012 05:11
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Just finished book 4, have a few questions but I'll wait until I don't have to spoiler them. However, why don't the Forsaken make new angreals? I guess it's a talent you have to be born with or something, but surely, among so many superstrong Channelers, at least one of them should know how to do that?
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Apr 13, 2012 14:04
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BattyKiara posted:Just finished book 4, have a few questions but I'll wait until I don't have to spoiler them. This spoiler comes up later so you may not want to read this but as far as I know it isn't a plot spoiler in any way even as of book 12, we have no clue how angreals are made, so it's up in the air the reasons why they can't/don't. In book 2 when Egwene was captured her sul'dam indicated that only some certain women can make the a'dams, which are ter'angreals. All the greatest things in the Age of Legends were said to be made by men and women working together too, it's possible there are some things that are just flat out impossible to do without using saidin and saidar together, and I don't think the forsaken are the type to cooperate. Even if some would, if they require a full circle at least two of the Forsaken died before they were all free and presumably they don't want to bring in Black Ajah because it'd kinda ruin their reputation as godlike entities. SageSepth posted:edit: Seems it's narrated by Kramer and Reading who did the Codex Alera, so I know the reading will be good, but what is the story about? Does Kramer do loving everything? I just started listening to the Way of Kings audiobook and it's kinda weird since I associate his voice so much with Wheel of Time. The woman (I don't THINK it's Reading) has a noticeable lisp which kinda sets my teeth on edge a little.
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Apr 13, 2012 14:55
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SageSepth posted:edit: Seems it's narrated by Kramer and Reading who did the Codex Alera, so I know the reading will be good, but what is the story about? Well, the Wheel of Time starts as "wise sage seeks out farmboys to fulfill prophecies and save the world" and has a very Tolkien feel. The whole series is still about the prophesied one trying to save the world, but pretty quickly it differentiates itself by having some really interesting world details (like the nature of magic, a cyclical view of time, secrets about people and cultures that get revealed in neat ways) and by focusing on how in many ways it would suck to be the Chosen One picked to save the world by destroying it (and also sucks to be his friend).
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Apr 13, 2012 15:34
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The Lord Bude posted:Also, nobody has mentioned Leigh Butler's official reread: I've been reading this recently but if she goes on one more multi-paragraph rant about even the slightest hint of sexism, I'm just gonna stop. Yes, we get that you don't like sexism. Please stop expounding on it over and over and over, you've made your point. She wrote nearly a page about how unfair it is that sexist attitudes prevail amongst sailors and they make jokes about why ships are called 'she'. It's an entirely male-dominated industry, this kind of thing is going to happen, sorry that the world isn't always fair.
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Apr 14, 2012 01:36
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Prison Warden posted:This spoiler comes up later so you may not want to read this but as far as I know it isn't a plot spoiler in any way even as of book 12, we have no clue how angreals are made, so it's up in the air the reasons why they can't/don't. Aren't Egwene and co. making angreals by the time they have the white tower under siege?
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Apr 14, 2012 01:51
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Two Finger posted:I've been reading this recently but if she goes on one more multi-paragraph rant about even the slightest hint of sexism, I'm just gonna stop. Yes, we get that you don't like sexism. Please stop expounding on it over and over and over, you've made your point. She always manages to be incredibly entertaining though.
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Apr 14, 2012 02:12
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Christ, I'd forgotten about those. It's nice to read someone else's views, am I just weird that hints of sexism don't whip me into a frothing fury? It's just a book...
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Apr 14, 2012 02:25
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I do think that most of the women in the series do not really act like normal women in the book. I understand that being in love does tend to screw with the more rational parts of your brain (been there before), it seems Min, Nynaeve, Elayne, and Aviendha spend a good half of their internal monologuing fussing about men, or being amazed at how irrational they are acting. I really hope Egwene never finds someone to fall in love with, she seems like the last rational female main character left.
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Apr 14, 2012 04:45
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It's not just the women. It seems like there's some sort of eternal war of the sexes (or at least cold war of the sexes) in Randland. Women are always going on about how men need to be told what's good for them, how they're stupid, how they need to be bossed around, etc. (Prime example: Nynaeve et al complaining about Thom and Juilin even though Thom and Juilin are extremely capable men who provide them a lot of necessary help in Tanchico and beyond.) Men are always going on about how women are completely inscrutable, bossy, stubborn, etc. (Prime example: Rand complaining about Aviendha, Moiraine, and his posse of Far Dareis Mai.) It's really extreme and almost offputting. The only thing that redeems it, in my opinion, is that it's a reflection of historical events in the world: men really did go crazy and almost destroy the world, and the female Aes Sedai decided the best thing to do would be to guide the world from the shadows, protecting the world from men. Even then, I think it's extreme enough to justify some of Leigh Butler's rants and it's not very fun to read over and over.
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Apr 14, 2012 06:20
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I see it as one of the themes. Everyone in the Wheel of Time is stronger when it's a man and a woman working together. They're two halves of the same coin. The way society has been dominated by women for the last 3000 years has thrown everything out of whack, and I think part of Rand saving the world will be making it balanced again. Then, of course, it will swing wildly the other way, then back to balance, and so on, because that's how cyclical time works.
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Apr 14, 2012 07:54
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I have not read these rants, but I'm going to. However it strikes me that complaining about the sexism in Randland is like complaining about how elves always live in the woods or dragons are nothing but gold hoarders. In WoT one of the major points of the story is to present a primarily female dominated world, due for the most part to the men who broke the world. Perhaps because it's an issue that hits so close to home,unlike elves or dragons, it hits some people a little harder. IMO it makes the world more interesting to see this type of world building. Its not a purely female dominated world, of course, but for the most part it is.
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Apr 14, 2012 14:22
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The one that really pissed me off was in TSR I think, when they are talking to the sea folk chick and she gives them the explanation of why a ship is called 'he', and out of curiosity she went searching for reasons why a ship in real life is called 'she'. I thought she was going to choke on her own tongue.
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Apr 14, 2012 20:16
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Hobbes24 posted:I have not read these rants, but I'm going to. However it strikes me that complaining about the sexism in Randland is like complaining about how elves always live in the woods or dragons are nothing but gold hoarders. In WoT one of the major points of the story is to present a primarily female dominated world, due for the most part to the men who broke the world. Perhaps because it's an issue that hits so close to home,unlike elves or dragons, it hits some people a little harder. IMO it makes the world more interesting to see this type of world building. Its not a purely female dominated world, of course, but for the most part it is. But if the world was really dominated by women for so long, then wouldn't the sexism be expressed differently than it is in our world? In our world, women and pretty clothes are linked, because for centuries a pretty woman was considered an ornament for a successful man. If women are the ones out there being successful at politics and trade, then wouldn't men be the pretty ornaments? And wouldn't men all be obsessed with their clothes, because that's what makes them pretty, whereas women mostly wouldn't care, because they don't HAVE to? I mean, I haven't read the rants either, but I think in many ways WOT is consciously ANTI-sexist. There are male and female monarchs, male and female Darkfriends, male and female channellers... it's a lot different from something like Tolkien, where the most important female character (Galadriel) is in, like, one chapter. But even people who are mostly anti-sexist can have blind spots. Ebou Dar is a female-dominated society, where women fight over men and chase them around. (And Mat spends as much of his inner monologue there thinking about clothes as Elayne or Nynaeve - which is hilarious!) But Ebou Dar is presented as an exception within the post-Breaking world, not the norm.
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Apr 15, 2012 02:27
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Ponsonby Britt posted:But if the world was really dominated by women for so long, then wouldn't the sexism be expressed differently than it is in our world? In our world, women and pretty clothes are linked, because for centuries a pretty woman was considered an ornament for a successful man. If women are the ones out there being successful at politics and trade, then wouldn't men be the pretty ornaments? And wouldn't men all be obsessed with their clothes, because that's what makes them pretty, whereas women mostly wouldn't care, because they don't HAVE to? In Ebou Dar, Arad Doman, and I think Far Madding men are expressly ornaments (excepting Ebou Dar's shipowner guilds, iirc.) so yes, it does happen that way.
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Apr 15, 2012 03:55
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arioch posted:In Ebou Dar, Arad Doman, and I think Far Madding men are expressly ornaments (excepting Ebou Dar's shipowner guilds, iirc.) so yes, it does happen that way. I think the Ebou Dar Example is where it really hit home for me. Jordan did a pretty good job of showing different kinds of reverse sexism throughout his world. From the near ornamentation of men in Ebou Dar to the near equality in the Two Rivers (even though everyone knows the women's circle runs things, but don't tell the Village Council that) The Aiel with their customs that are both familiar and strange. Women propose to men, clan chiefs rule but only with the wise ones blessing. I think the civilization across the waste is male dominated but we read very little about them. Also very vicious and brutal from what I remember. The sexism is a generalized thing - almost every land has a queen and succession passes through the female line. Even the Seanchan have a queen. Is there a king ruling anywhere before Rand shows up? I know Tear is ruled by a council of high lords. Oh wait there is one king - In Amador home of the White Cloaks. Tell me he isn't sending a message there. Even his magic is female dominated at the present time, but even this holds clues to his thinking.. Jordan is not saying that in his world women are better than men. He is showing a world where the events of the past have lead cause and effect to bring us to the point where the gender balance is out of whack and, this is important, this gender imbalance is very wrong. I have to be careful to avoid spoilers here but things happen that show this. He is explicit when he says that during the age of legends, the greatest feats were achieved by men and women working together. Mankind suffers its greatest defeat when one gender goes alone. I don't think we're there yet. Hobbes24 fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Apr 15, 2012 |
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Apr 15, 2012 06:09
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Illian also had a king. Same with Cairhien, and his major (Darkfriend) political opponent was also male. I vaguely recall some of the Borderlands had male leaders as well.
Neurosis fucked around with this message at 09:27 on Apr 15, 2012 |
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Apr 15, 2012 06:26
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Hobbes24 posted:I think the Ebou Dar Example is where it really hit home for me. Jordan did a pretty good job of showing different kinds of reverse sexism throughout his world. From the near ornamentation of men in Ebou Dar to the near equality in the Two Rivers (even though everyone knows the women's circle runs things, but don't tell the Village Council that) based on the political situation at the start of the series, before the Forsaken and Rand have had a chance to mix things up: Paitar Nachiman is king of Arafel, Easar Togita is king of Shienar, Alsalam Saeed Almadar is the king of Arad Doman, Andric is the King of Tarabon (although constitutionally The king of Tarabon shares power with the Panarch, who is always a woman, and they have different areas of responsibility), Mattin Stepaneos den Balgar is the King of Illian (although Illian has an early form of democracy with power divided between a council of nobles and a council of commoners from the merchant/shipping classes), Ailron is King of Amadicia (though he doesn't so much as take a poo poo without asking Pedron Niall first), Roedran Almaric do Arreloa a'Naloy is king of Murandy and Galldrian su Riatin Rie is King of Cairhein. Tear is ruled by an oligarchy of the heads of the most senior noble houses, who could be either male or female. Out of 16 Nations (If you include the city state of Far Madding as a nation) that makes 8 male rulers, or 50%. Tear doesn't have a single individual who could be considered head of state (the High Lords make all decisions as a group), so really it's 8 out of 15, a majority. It's also worth pointing out that the only nations where the ruler MUST be female, as opposed to just happening to be female during the events of the series are Andor and Far Madding.
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Apr 15, 2012 08:49
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Apart from Amadicia, you'd think Far Madding would be the one place where there wouldn't be a matriarchy in place, considering there is no relationship between Aes Sedai/Channelers and female dominance in society.
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Apr 15, 2012 09:17
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The Lord Bude posted:It's also worth pointing out that the only nations where the ruler MUST be female, as opposed to just happening to be female during the events of the series are Andor and Far Madding. Those are the only two nations where the gender of the leader is predefined, however, which again pushes the balance back towards women. Any other nation, the leader might be a man, but those two it never will.
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Apr 15, 2012 09:20
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I think all of the gender issues in WoT are heavily colored by the fact that it was written by a mildly chauvinistic author trying to paint an equal society, and like people tend to do when they try to go against their nature, he went a little overboard. Not a big deal, and the author's intent was clearly to make it a world that's got macro gender equality made up of mostly micro inequalities instead of just a big homogenized blob, so that's the way I read it. I don't think anything is egregious enough to be offensive, and he's been extremely clear in his meta-discussions that that's what he intended, so I play along. Makes the whole thing more enjoyable when you just kind of go along with it.
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Apr 15, 2012 09:58
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The Lord Bude posted:based on the political situation at the start of the series, before the Forsaken and Rand have had a chance to mix things up: I'm fairly sure Ghealdan had a king at the start of the story as well, but Ghealdan changes monarchs like most people change their underwear.
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Apr 15, 2012 12:09
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Jedit posted:I'm fairly sure Ghealdan had a king at the start of the story as well, but Ghealdan changes monarchs like most people change their underwear. Well, only since Masema, really. I think they went like, King->Queen->Queen or something like that. edit: that might be a bit spoilery
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Apr 15, 2012 13:05
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Ponsonby Britt posted:But if the world was really dominated by women for so long, then wouldn't the sexism be expressed differently than it is in our world? In our world, women and pretty clothes are linked, because for centuries a pretty woman was considered an ornament for a successful man. If women are the ones out there being successful at politics and trade, then wouldn't men be the pretty ornaments? And wouldn't men all be obsessed with their clothes, because that's what makes them pretty, whereas women mostly wouldn't care, because they don't HAVE to? I think, in part, it strongly has to do with how Aes Sedai do things. Aes Sedai(barring Elaida or Liandrin types, notably this was the style of control that failed monstrously on Hawkwing), prefer to govern from behind the throne, manipulating things to b as they see fit. Whether its a king or queen ruling isn't all that significant, with the exception of Andor(since their queens have to train in the Tower) So they'd want to manipulate societies towards focused, uneven power sharing type arrangements, with councils of nobles or Houses dividing power, and a 'first amongst equals' to direct attentions on. This way, they can move the Houses against each other to get their own agenda. In contrast, a strong monarchy can be extremely hard to budge(see Hawkwing), as nobody would stand up to the leader, and a true democracy likewise difficult to shift on small matters, as it is easier for several Aes Sedai adviser to influence crucial decisions of a few dozen nobles than to move entire populations and wind up generating the wrong change anyway. So with power divided, you tend to get a more mixed pot where it comes to the leaders proper, since it mainly depends on who's in the right place at the right time for the Aes Sedai to decide that this guy's going to get lucky.
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