You Are The Ref - You Are The Ref - Coax The Eagle To Safet

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > The Ray Parlour > You Are The Ref - You Are The Ref - Coax The Eagle To Safet

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Redundant: Sep 24, 2011; Even robots have feelings!

Redundant posted:

1) I assume offside but the wording is bad.
2) Straight red defender, not sure about yellow for the striker but probably a yellow then red. Write it into match report etc etc.
3) gently caress it, goal, he's not holding him down he's actively helping the player up. Nothing would have changed if he had just left him on the floor.

Three for three, for once I get to be smug about the most important thing there is... YATR :smug:

I'm somewhat shocked that the offside question stumped people, I get that the whole "phases of play" thing has muddied the water somewhat but that seemed incredibly straight forward still.

# ? Apr 30, 2012 15:30

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# ? May 24, 2024 02:10

foobardog: Apr 19, 2007; There, now I can tell when you're posting.

-- A friend

Redundant posted:

Three for three, for once I get to be smug about the most important thing there is... YATR

I'm somewhat shocked that the offside question stumped people, I get that the whole "phases of play" thing has muddied the water somewhat but that seemed incredibly straight forward still.

I seem to be one of the few that were actually stumped by it. I just didn't put it in the right mindset, comparing it to rebounding off of a defender made it make perfect sense.

I went zero for three with getting the major decision perfectly backwards in every case. :saddowns:

# ? May 1, 2012 19:37

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

1) Firstly, it doesn't sound like it was safe to have him on the pitch, so he shouldn't have been there in the first place. That fact aside, I'd give a penalty and send him off for DOGSO. He chose to keep his arm in an unnatural position whil.e around the goal mouth.

2) Thank the player for informing me and report the situation to the FA after the game. That's for them to deal with, not you.

3) Book him or send him off depending on the severity. If he is sent off and hasn't crossed the touchline the substitution is now invalid.

# ? May 4, 2012 09:42

Adrianics: Aug 15, 2006; Affirmative. Yes. Yo. Right on. My man.

1. Why is the captain still playing? Either way, I'd want to make it clear that there are no sob stories on my loving pitch: Penalty and red card, lest anyone in the future attempt to use an injury as an excuse for breaking the rules.

2. I'd thank the captain, write up what he said in my report to the FA and continue to referee the second half as normal, making special note of any further 'soft' corners you encounter.

3. Cancel the substitution, show the player a red card for dissent, smugly tell the manager to keep his players under control, note exactly what was said to you in your report.

# ? May 4, 2012 10:51

Lamont Cranston: Sep 1, 2006; how do i shot foam

Masonity posted:

1) Penalty and red card for DOGSO. Regardless of the injury, he deliberately had his arm out at this side (so the question of ball to hand is irrelevant). Luckily for him he'll be able to get some treatment and a week or two off to rest.

2) Note in the match report, punch Ray Winstone in his giant floating face

3) Send him off. If the manager still wants to bring on the sub it will have to be for one of his remaining 10 men.

# ? May 4, 2012 14:36

Loving Africa Chaps: Dec 3, 2007; We had not left it yet, but when I would wake in the night, I would lie, listening, homesick for it already.

Masonity posted:

1) if it's in the position it's been in all game and he didn't move in a way that meant his arm would be in the way then carry on as it was unintentional. 'unnatural position' is complete shite spouted off by commentators

2) thank the player for telling you and put it in your match report

3) book him

# ? May 4, 2012 16:00

E4C85D38: Feb 7, 2010; Doesn't that thing only
hold six rounds...?

It's obviously not intentional. No penalty.
SEP. Report it to the league.
Nice try. Congratulate him for being able to moonwalk in cleats and send him off -- the other man didn't come on so the substitution is incomplete and his team will play short.

# ? May 4, 2012 16:13

stickyfngrdboy: Oct 21, 2010

1) This one's difficult. The laws say something like: a red card is given for 'unfair intervention' for a handball that stops a certain goal, not for the act of deliberately handling the ball. I can't remember fully. That said, I'm sure it also says position of the hand doesn't mean it's necessarily an infringement. So I will go with no penalty, no card.

2) Put it in match report (you could abandon I think, both outside interference and law infringement, but that would seem an overreaction).

3) Swear back and tell him to stop being a girl. You understand his frustration and he'll apologise afterwards while his manager calls you a twat in the post-match interview.

# ? May 4, 2012 16:26

Ras Het: May 23, 2007; when I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child - but now I am a man.

1. Red and penalty; just because he has an excuse for it doesn't mean it's not an unnatural position and thus a handball.

2. Nothing, but make note of it in the match report afterwards.

3. Red card, allow sub if it's already happened technically.

# ? May 4, 2012 16:56

ManoliIsFat: Oct 4, 2002

Ras Het posted:

1. Red and penalty; just because he has an excuse for it doesn't mean it's not an unnatural position and thus a handball.

Twist for #1, what if instead of being caused by injury, the dude just had a messed up shoulder from birth and his arm always stuck out like that.

# ? May 4, 2012 17:11

Popehoist: Feb 5, 2008; There you go rubens, all your fault! You went on the wrong side of the car!

You have to penalise #1 or else every defender in the league will start running spread-eagled at all times while complaining of shoulder pains.

# ? May 4, 2012 17:17

Ras Het: May 23, 2007; when I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child - but now I am a man.

ManoliIsFat posted:

Twist for #1, what if instead of being caused by injury, the dude just had a messed up shoulder from birth and his arm always stuck out like that.

Well, do we have a precedent? Peter Crouch?

# ? May 4, 2012 17:19

stickyfngrdboy: Oct 21, 2010

Popehoist posted:

You have to penalise #1 or else every defender in the league will start running spread-eagled at all times while complaining of shoulder pains.

Like defenders are clever enough to remember to do that.

# ? May 4, 2012 17:21

Giovanni_Sinclair: Apr 25, 2009; It was on this day that his greatest enemy defeated, the true lord of darkness arose. His name? MARIO.

Masonity posted:

1) Red card him since it's still a handball.
2) Put it in the match report and report it to the league.
3) Punch him and red card him, then tell the manager to pick another guy on the pitch to sub.

# ? May 4, 2012 19:54

Shoren: Apr 6, 2011; victoria concordia crescit

Masonity posted:

1. Play on. Having your arm in an "unnatural position" is BS the commentators use as the end-all indicator, but it can be a useful way of looking at things. The laws only state that deliberately handling the ball is an offence therefore if the guy's crocked like that and you know it, I'd suspect the last thing he wants to do is get the ball smashed into his arm.

2. Note it in the match report. Not your responsibility to worry about match-fixing (unless your linesman are trying it).

3. Red for abusive language/behavior. If the substitution hasn't been completed then that side plays a man down, otherwise the player subbed off is just a oval office. Track him down after the match and punch him in the face for good measure.

# ? May 5, 2012 00:54

Thel: Apr 28, 2010

Masonity posted:

1: Penalty/red card. He'll get a couple weeks off to heal up.

2: Note it in the match report, ref second half as normal.

3: Red card him. Since he hasn't actually been substituted yet, his team is down to 10 men.

# ? May 5, 2012 02:44

Lamont Cranston: Sep 1, 2006; how do i shot foam

For me, the issue on the handball is not whether it's in an "unnatural position" because, as is often noted, it's made up by commentators*, but whether or not the contact was made as a result of deliberate action by the defender.

What about a defender who is standing far post at a corner kick and sticks both of his arms out before the kick is taken. A member of the attacking side volleys it on net from the corner kick, and the outstretched arm blocks the shot. I think it's fairly clear that the defender would be sent off, even if his arm had not actually moved from when the ball was kicked from the corner and it was, strictly speaking, ball-to-hand contact.

_{* Imagine my surprise then when I saw the following in the USSF's Advice to Referees handbook: "'Deliberate contact' means that the player could have avoided the touch but chose not to, that the player's arms were not in a normal playing position at the time, or that the player deliberately continued an initially accidental contact for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage."}

edit: edited my lovely story

Lamont Cranston fucked around with this message at 00:26 on May 6, 2012

# ? May 5, 2012 03:11

Loving Africa Chaps: Dec 3, 2007; We had not left it yet, but when I would wake in the night, I would lie, listening, homesick for it already.

Lamont Cranston posted:

For me, the issue on the handball is not whether it's in an "unnatural position" because, as is often noted, it's made up by commentators*, but whether or not the contact was made as a result of deliberate action by the defender.

What about a defender who is standing far post at a corner kick and sticks both of his arms out before the kick is taken. The offense one-times it on net from the corner kick, and the outstretched arm blocks the shot. I think it's fairly clear that the defender would be sent off, even if his arm had not actually moved from when the ball was kicked from the corner and it was, strictly speaking, ball-to-hand contact.

_{* Imagine my surprise then when I saw the following in the USSF's Advice to Referees handbook: "'Deliberate contact' means that the player could have avoided the touch but chose not to, that the player's arms were not in a normal playing position at the time, or that the player deliberately continued an initially accidental contact for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage."}

No it isn't because they quite clearly deliberately tried to stop the ball with their arm.

# ? May 5, 2012 07:33

hyper from Pixie Sticks: Sep 28, 2004

And for using the pointyball words 'offense' and 'one-times' in a thread about actual football, your opinion immediately becomes worthless.

# ? May 5, 2012 08:55

Lamont Cranston: Sep 1, 2006; how do i shot foam

Honestly I could see Hackett going either way. I'm only as sure as I am because I'm pretty sure an earlier YATR had a similar scenario that he penalized. Of course, that's probably all the more reason to assume the opposite.

Semprini posted:

And for using the pointyball words 'offense' and 'one-times' in a thread about actual football, your opinion immediately becomes worthless.

lol ok

(ps there's no such thing as a one-time shot in American football. If you're going to be a pedantic troll at least get it right.)

# ? May 5, 2012 18:36

MrL_JaKiri: Sep 23, 2003; A bracing glass of carrot juice!

I think he assumed it came from American football because

Lamont Cranston posted:

The offense one-times it on net from the corner kick

is not something that people say about football and I had no idea what it meant (and even with the clarifying post above I can only assume you mean a volley)

# ? May 5, 2012 20:23

Redundant: Sep 24, 2011; Even robots have feelings!

1) Not a penalty since it's not deliberate.
2) They love their betting/bribe questions. Note in match report, give no fucks about it for the second half.
3) Depends what he said. If it's not too bad book him, if it's really bad (or I'm in a bad mood) send him off and the sub can go and sit down again. Consider punching him in the face.

# ? May 5, 2012 20:52

Lamont Cranston: Sep 1, 2006; how do i shot foam

MrL_JaKiri posted:

I think he assumed it came from American football because

is not something that people say about football and I had no idea what it meant (and even with the clarifying post above I can only assume you mean a volley)

All I mean to imply was that the shot was instantaneous with no second touch and no time for the defender to move his arm. So yeah, any such shot from a corner would almost certainly be on the volley or a header.

I guess it is a borrowing from ice hockey that no one outside of North America should be expected to understand and which I'm happy to clarify.

Anyways, sorry to derail. I'd much rather just talk about refereeing.

# ? May 5, 2012 23:07

Lamont Cranston: Sep 1, 2006; how do i shot foam

Keith Hackett posted:

1) Was it deliberate handball? Here's the guidance you need to consider: when a ball goes to the side or above a player, and his hand or arm deliberately moves towards the ball, or he makes his body area bigger, then you should penalise deliberate handball. But in this instance, the player's arm was already in that position, so there's no offence. Play on. Thanks to Johannah Carroll.
2) There's a limit on what action you can take on allegations made during a game. All you can do for now is assure the captain who made the claim that you will report his concerns to the appropriate authorities at the end of the match. It is up to the authorities to sort this one out. Thanks to Ged Cassell.
3) This is always a controversial subject, but not all swearing is the same. If you consider his comment to be offensive, insulting or abusive, show him a straight red card and stop the substitution taking place � unless they take off another player. But if you decide the comment only represents dissent, show him a yellow card, and allow the substitution to be completed. Many people advocate a zero tolerance policy on swearing � but I'm afraid that's no longer realistic. James Reid wins the shirt.

There we have it! Not surprised by #1, though I eagerly await the flood of defenders holding both their arms out any time the opposing side gets the ball.

# ? May 7, 2012 13:11

Redundant: Sep 24, 2011; Even robots have feelings!

Lamont Cranston posted:

There we have it! Not surprised by #1, though I eagerly await the flood of defenders holding both their arms out any time the opposing side gets the ball.

But you'd have to play like that when your team had the ball too otherwise you're deliberately making your body area bigger when not in possession.

# ? May 7, 2012 18:04

the sex ghost: Sep 6, 2009

# ? May 11, 2012 10:17

edogawa rando: Mar 20, 2007

1. "What's that? You forfeit? OK, then."
2. Does it even matter?
3. Award goal.

# ? May 11, 2012 10:26

stickyfngrdboy: Oct 21, 2010

the sex ghost posted:

1) Play on, put it in match report, let the ruling body decide on action afterwards.

2) Award goal.

3) Award goal, you can't use video replays and your decision was already made.

stickyfngrdboy fucked around with this message at 13:59 on May 11, 2012

# ? May 11, 2012 10:47

Mickolution: Oct 1, 2005; Ballers...I put numbers on the boards

1. Insist on the player being replaced. If the manager refuses, 3-0 win to the opposition.

2. There's probably some rule saying it has to be retaken, but in reality it'd be ok. I'm pretty sure I've seen keepers partake in shootouts without gloves, so should be the same thing.

3. There shouldn't have been a TV in the dugout, should there?

# ? May 11, 2012 12:17

Modus Trollens: Sep 12, 2010

1) Either he doesn't include him or no game
2) Who gives a poo poo
3) Give yaya his goal

# ? May 11, 2012 13:31

Lamont Cranston: Sep 1, 2006; how do i shot foam

the sex ghost posted:

1) Inform the manager that you will not be starting if the banned player is in the team sheet. If he persists, abandon the match, punch him in the face, and report the full facts to the authorities.

2) An infringement of this type during the run of play would only require the player to leave the field at the next stoppage of play to correct the problem. In this case, he's almost certainly not going to be tackled during the penalty shootout, so his incorrect equipment is not creating a dangerous situation as it would be if he were not wearing boots, for example. So allow the goal.

3) Tell him to gently caress right off with that and inquire with the FA as to how a fourth official was appointed who is unaware that video replay is not allowed. Punch the face of whomever put a TV in the dugout.

# ? May 11, 2012 13:36

Giovanni_Sinclair: Apr 25, 2009; It was on this day that his greatest enemy defeated, the true lord of darkness arose. His name? MARIO.

the sex ghost posted:

1)Don't let him play and give the manager a punch in the face and tell him that was a joke.
2)Give the goal.
3)In a nice perfect sensible world it would not be a goal because they would use a replay but since we don't live in that nice perfect sensible world the goal stands.

# ? May 11, 2012 21:42

Redundant: Sep 24, 2011; Even robots have feelings!

1) Warn him then 3-0 win to the other team if he's still being a dick about it.
2) Are you loving kidding me? Goal. He can take it in his pants for all I care, hardly a safety risk at that point.
3) Tough poo poo really. Goal. As a random story - I was at an Arsenal game (FA Cup vs Wolves I believe) when Gallas scored in the last minute. Everyone was celebrating still when the replay came up on the big screen. The entire stadium (including the officials) could see that Gallas was about a yard offside, the players pointed this out to the ref who just kind of shrugged apologetically.

# ? May 12, 2012 03:21

E4C85D38: Feb 7, 2010; Doesn't that thing only
hold six rounds...?

I don't think the Laws of the Game really cover this, but I also imagine that there's some league directive to the referee to not start the game with a suspended player (Cf. "no pass, no play"). Abandon if he persists. Determining how this affects league rankings or whatnot is Somebody Else's Problem�.
This isn't even something you'd stop the game for during regulation time, let alone void a goal, and during kicks from the penalty mark it's just ridiculous. Goal stands, and if you want to just be a jerk have him walk off the field.
A TV replay is certainly not grounds to reverse your decision and the fourth official should drat well know that. (You could with very good reason, having not restarted play, but this isn't one.)

# ? May 12, 2012 09:40

hyper from Pixie Sticks: Sep 28, 2004

A TV replay is not grounds to reverse your decision, however advice from your assistants is. Be interested to see which way Hackett goes on that one.

# ? May 12, 2012 11:12

belgend: Mar 6, 2008; me when The Club do another win

Semprini posted:

A TV replay is not grounds to reverse your decision, however advice from your assistants is. Be interested to see which way Hackett goes on that one.

Well the assistents say it was over, it's only the 4th who says it wasn't through replays.

# ? May 12, 2012 11:30

Lamont Cranston: Sep 1, 2006; how do i shot foam

quote:

1) You cannot stop the suspended player taking part if his club really insist on it � but they would be fools to go ahead. If the manager stands his ground, ask to see the club's chief executive, or another top-level official, and make it clear that you are aware the player is suspended, that it will be reported, and that the club is likely to face significant sanctions as a result. Thanks to John Scales for the question.
2) You're not going to be popular here, but you have to apply the laws fairly throughout. Disallow the goal, call the players back, order the kick-taker to put his shinpads on, and then allow a retake. David Homer wins the shirt.
3) Your fourth official has put you in an impossible position. Cameras, TVs and media equipment are not allowed in the technical areas, and you need to be firm on that. As hard as it may be, accept your assistant's signal that the ball crossed the line, award the goal, then suspend the game until the TV equipment is removed. I have long been a big supporter of goalline technology: I hope Hawk-Eye will soon be in place. Thanks to Duncan Turton.

Number 1 makes sense as he has said before that suspensions fall under the rules of the competition and you're not there to enforce them. Those have all been during the run of play though, I assumed it would be different if you knew beforehand.
Number 2 :psyduck:

# ? May 14, 2012 13:15

pik_d: Feb 24, 2006; follow the white dove

TRP Post of the Month October 2021

Lamont Cranston posted:

Number 1 makes sense as he has said before that suspensions fall under the rules of the competition and you're not there to enforce them.

Why the gently caress not?

# ? May 14, 2012 13:23

stickyfngrdboy: Oct 21, 2010

I don't understand 2). I was certain we'd seen similar situations in YOTR before when a player has scored from open play without shinpads (or a boot or something) and the goal was given, and the player told to sort his pad or boot out before rejoining the game. I don't see why that should change in a penalty situation.

edit: YOTR? YATR obviously...

stickyfngrdboy fucked around with this message at 14:00 on May 14, 2012

# ? May 14, 2012 13:47

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# ? May 24, 2024 02:10

pik_d: Feb 24, 2006; follow the white dove

TRP Post of the Month October 2021

stickyfngrdboy posted:

I don't understand 2). I was certain we'd seen similar situations in YOTR before when a player has scored from open play without shinpads (or a boot or something) and the goal was given, and the player told to sort his pad or boot out before rejoining the game. I don't see why that should change in a penalty situation.

If you buy into Hackett's reasoning at all it's probably because it's not open play and he had ample time to put on his shin guards before the kick.

# ? May 14, 2012 13:59

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