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Yeah, trusting Yes Man in any way for any time is utterly silly. You could never justify it in 'real life'. :player leaves Yes Man in charge of the 38 and securitron army and farts off to wander around the desert for weeks on end: First off, House and the casino families must have some sort of line of communication. I hope none of them call up and get Yes Man on the line, because if they do they run Vegas now. Also, everyone knows the courier and his/her buddies are going in and out of Lucky 38 constantly. Also, there have been disturbing rumors about House. I sure hope no treasure hunters or opportunists manage to get into the casino and meet up with Yes Man while you're loving around the Mojave, because if they do, they run Vegas now. I mean, I liked Yes Man, he was a really funny character, but getting 'assertive programming' at the end is waaaaaaaaaay too late.
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May 10, 2012 01:38
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Wouldn't the Securitrons take out anybody who tried to get in the Lucky 38 without authorization though? Just cause its open to YOU, doesn't mean anyone can just come and go. That's why the place stays empty.
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May 10, 2012 01:51
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Defiance Industries posted:Didnt rope kid say that he wouldn't? His new "assertive programming," if I recall, was locking everyone but you out or something like that. Yes but on the other hand the possibility that after singlehandedly cutting your way through every force in the Mojave you got played by a broken robot who can't even use harsh language makes for a much better more Vegasy ending than 'and then all glaring plot holes were erased and everything was cool forever the end', and death of the author etc. Tubgirl Cosplay fucked around with this message at 02:31 on May 10, 2012 |
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May 10, 2012 02:28
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Defiance Industries posted:Wouldn't the Securitrons take out anybody who tried to get in the Lucky 38 without authorization though? Just cause its open to YOU, doesn't mean anyone can just come and go. That's why the place stays empty. That's the idea, yeah. But, now that the 38 is publicly known to be entered by someone, you're pretty much gambling your life and the future of the Mojave on nobody else being competent enough to sneak or fight their way to a point where they could (without knowing) get in touch with Yes Man, who will promptly have the securitrons stand down and serve his new 'owner', while explaining all your secrets.
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May 10, 2012 02:42
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Fintilgin posted:That's the idea, yeah. But, now that the 38 is publicly known to be entered by someone, you're pretty much gambling your life and the future of the Mojave on nobody else being competent enough to sneak or fight their way to a point where they could (without knowing) get in touch with Yes Man, who will promptly have the securitrons stand down and serve his new 'owner', while explaining all your secrets. OR, they wander in and find Yes Man and a couple of securitrons just chillin. In a fit of fear and surprise yells "Robots! gently caress me!" Then comes the most epic struggle of machine vs flesh ever recorded.
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May 10, 2012 02:55
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Defiance Industries posted:Didnt rope kid say that he wouldn't? His new "assertive programming," if I recall, was locking everyone but you out or something like that. Yeah, it's just so some random jackass can't walk in off the street and take over the entire operation like you did.
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May 10, 2012 03:24
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Kharmakazy posted:OR, they wander in and find Yes Man and a couple of securitrons just chillin. In a fit of fear and surprise yells "Robots! gently caress me!" Then comes the most epic struggle of machine vs flesh ever recorded. Second most, if you sampled FISTO's delights for yourself.
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May 10, 2012 03:39
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Defiance Industries posted:Wouldn't the Securitrons take out anybody who tried to get in the Lucky 38 without authorization though? Just cause its open to YOU, doesn't mean anyone can just come and go. That's why the place stays empty. That chick who tries to get you to bug House's network managed to follow me inside somehow, I guess I was managing to move fast enough to outpace her (wasn't trying to, I just didn't realize she was trying to get my attention) I got into the casino, loading screen, suddenly I find myself turning around to talk to her. After the conversation she just stood there in front of the door, with both of the Securitrons looking right at her, and her at them. I'm not trying to say you're wrong, just pointing out this bizarre AI bug I had.
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May 10, 2012 04:13
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Nucular Carmul posted:That chick who tries to get you to bug House's network managed to follow me inside somehow, I guess I was managing to move fast enough to outpace her (wasn't trying to, I just didn't realize she was trying to get my attention) I got into the casino, loading screen, suddenly I find myself turning around to talk to her. After the conversation she just stood there in front of the door, with both of the Securitrons looking right at her, and her at them. You only got her into the casino? She followed me into my presidential suite!
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May 10, 2012 04:25
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Sorry if this rambles a bit. Anyway, here's my thoughts on the NCR: Right now, they're around the same level of progression as the US in the late 19th century. They're far more democratic than their peers, but the government is filled with incompetents and big business controls a large amount of political, financial, and industrial power. Now, could the NCR fall into a rut and decay? It's certainly possible. I think that it's far more likely, however, that they get their problems ironed out, just as the United States did. After all, if the US could survive Grant as a President, than I'm pretty sure the NCR can survive Kimball. Regarding the Mojave, the NCR is probably the best prospect for the region, especially when compared to the other factions. They're the only ones with the infrastructure and manpower to properly administer the region (Without raping and enslaving half the population), and they're the only major faction actively interested in (and capable of) helping the residential population. Now, that's not to say they don't have their issues. They're overstretched, they've made a lot of enemies, the economy is doing poorly, and the political system is increasingly corrupt. All of these issues, however, are either isolated, temporary, and/or solvable over a period of time. Nearly every country on earth has faced these issues at various points, and there's no reason to believe the NCR is uniquely susceptible to them. I think that when looking at the various factions of the game, a lot of people fall into the habit of looking at the best of Caesar's Legion and/or House and the worst of the NCR. Of course when you look at it like that, the NCR's going to appear rough around the edges. But when you look more towards the pros and cons of each faction, I'd argue that the NCR is the most sustainable, followed by House, followed by Caesar's Legion. Let's break it down: Caesar's Legion: Pros: -Large Army -Safe, secure -Leader has plan for the future -Unified Culture Cons: -Leader is on his deathbed, and the only people who can take his place are A) A Sociopath and B) Another Sociopath -Intensely militaristic culture -Slavery is the backbone of the State -Extremely Brutal -Cult of personality focused around dying leader House: Pros: -Extremely intelligent -Possesses large robotic army -Plans for the future Cons: -Completely reliant on external contractors -Completely unwilling to negotiate -Plan for the future appears flawed at best -No Empathy whatsoever. -You can bet that even if his plan did work, the only people going to a new planet would only be the ones who can afford it. NCR: Pros: -Large Army -Lots of infrastructure -Functioning Democratic Government -Proven manufacturing capabilities -Willingness to negotiate -Most humanitarian faction Cons: -Government corruption is evident -Poor leadership -Economy is performing poorly -Increasing Wealth disparity In short, every faction has their positives and negatives to allying with them. I do believe, however, that the NCR has the best chance of creating a lasting civilization in the wasteland.
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May 10, 2012 04:42
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Defiance Industries posted:Didnt rope kid say that he wouldn't? His new "assertive programming," if I recall, was locking everyone but you out or something like that. That might be the canon explanation, but I'd like to have Dave Foley come back all SHODAN and poo poo "The process shall not take long. If it sounds unpleasant to you, put your mind at ease, insect. You will not survive to see my new world order." / 
redmercer fucked around with this message at 04:49 on May 10, 2012 |
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May 10, 2012 04:44
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That still blows my mind. Yes Man sounds nothing like Dave Foley.
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May 10, 2012 04:58
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redmercer posted:That might be the canon explanation, but I'd like to have Dave Foley come back all SHODAN and poo poo If they'd been able to do Post-Hoover play or a full-fledged expansion pack (instead of DLC) I would have liked to see an sequence like this, where if you'd taken the Yes Man ending he'd go all Shodan and you'd have to assault the 38 (or sneak in, or hack the gibson, or...) in order to regain control of the securitrons.
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May 10, 2012 05:14
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LividLiquid posted:That still blows my mind. Yes Man sounds nothing like Dave Foley. Really? He seems like a stock Dave Foley character. All pleasant as gently caress to conceal a deep abyss of madness.
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May 10, 2012 05:30
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DemonNick posted:Really? He seems like a stock Dave Foley character. All pleasant as gently caress to conceal a deep abyss of madness. I would have preferred Bruce McCullough's "Cabbage Head" for the Yes Man, as thematically inappropriate as it might have been.
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May 10, 2012 05:45
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I still wildly speculate about what post-ending gameplay would look like. I mean, the main towns and the Strip proper could be so wildly different that most quests just wouldn't be available anymore or would have to be nearly entirely rewritten. Same with a huge amount of the incidental dialogue, like in Primm and such (where, in the end, the town is either prospering or dead as poo poo, but being lorded over by like six different possible groups/individuals). Seems like a pretty massive undertaking.
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May 10, 2012 05:46
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Wolfsheim posted:I still wildly speculate about what post-ending gameplay would look like. I mean, the main towns and the Strip proper could be so wildly different that most quests just wouldn't be available anymore or would have to be nearly entirely rewritten. Same with a huge amount of the incidental dialogue, like in Primm and such (where, in the end, the town is either prospering or dead as poo poo, but being lorded over by like six different possible groups/individuals). I know what you mean. It's especially tempting to fantasize because the recorded post-hoover dialogue is pretty awesome and seems designed to sort of contextualize the ending slides.
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May 10, 2012 06:17
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DemonNick posted:I know what you mean. It's especially tempting to fantasize because the recorded post-hoover dialogue is pretty awesome and seems designed to sort of contextualize the ending slides. Oh man, I didn't even know this poo poo existed. Links?
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May 10, 2012 06:41
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DemonNick posted:Colonel Moore's more bloodthirsty than Vulpes Inculta. Uh. Vulpes massacres a town for no reason. He murders and crucifies civilians for no reason. Moore, on the other hand, is quick to attack armed groups that historically have been the NCR's enemies: the Khans, a tribe of raiders who are by no means nice people, and the Brotherhood, who traditionally have refused contact with outsiders except when it is to kill/threaten them and take their stuff.
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May 10, 2012 06:46
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DemonNick posted:The NCR military brass go straight to murder with the Khans (who they've oppressed and abused for decades) and the Brotherhood. Woah, woah, woah, there. The Khans are not innocent tribals. They're raiders, among the most feared in the wastes, who murder people and take their things instead of providing for themselves or doing anything productive. And it's not like they were forced into it by circumstance; while Shady Sands was farming and rebuilding civilization, the Khans were murdering and raping people for fun. And now, before the Dam battle, the NCR looks over the river and sees what is basically a glorified raider tribe, and doesn't feel like having raiders on two fronts? Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
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May 10, 2012 06:47
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thehumandignity posted:Uh. Vulpes massacres a town for no reason. Actually, there is a reason, and it's all about why he asks you to spread Nipton's destruction to the NCR outpost- it's literally a terrorist act, meant to destabilize and demoralize the already near-broken NCR army. Not only that, but it sends a message to the locals- the NCR talk pretty about needing your taxes to ensure your protection, but NCR are powerless. Is it ruthless? Yes it is, but it also serves a strategic purpose.
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May 10, 2012 06:50
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CommissarMega posted:Actually, there is a reason, and it's all about why he asks you to spread Nipton's destruction to the NCR outpost- it's literally a terrorist act, meant to destabilize and demoralize the already near-broken NCR army. Not only that, but it sends a message to the locals- the NCR talk pretty about needing your taxes to ensure your protection, but NCR are powerless. Okay, yeah, let me rephrase: No acceptable reason.
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May 10, 2012 06:52
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Here's why everyone should support the NCR: They're building trains. Trains. I mean I don't know about you guys, but I spent enough of my time walking as is. Being able to take a train would have been great. The NCR not only has a monorail, but they were building a train line between NCR proper and the Mojave. Trains are always the signs of modernity. The Legion apparently runs everywhere. House has no trains or any kind of transportation. He could take the Monorail I guess. I guess you could hitch a ride on a securitron. The NCR not only has trains, but vertibirds and I assume actual cars. I know on my no quick travel playthrough I really hated the Powder Gangers for depriving me of a nice train ride across the Mojave.
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May 10, 2012 06:54
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thehumandignity posted:Okay, yeah, let me rephrase: No acceptable reason. Fair enough- but you have to admit, that without the Courier, the Legion would have won the same way the Cong did; demoralizing the troops and the civvies to the point where the war would have been untenable. And like I said, from a cold, ruthless, inhuman perspective, what the Legion did was desirable. For some people, that sheer ruthlessness is a selling point. The NCR is going about the war all the wrong way- this isn't so much a matter of killing bodies as it is a war of ideas, a war fought in the hearts and minds of people. The NCR can protect all the towns they want, but a single Nipton will have them ousted right quick. Hell, you might make the argument that Nipton was actually a way to minimize casualties- a straight up fight might end up with many more civillian deaths, whether from outright fighting or uncowed resistance. Put the fear of Caesar into them, however, and you'll take over other towns without a single shot fired or drop of blood spilled. All you need is one big atrocity, something to make people think that they might be next if they don't cooperate.
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May 10, 2012 06:59
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Wolfsheim posted:Oh man, I didn't even know this poo poo existed. Links? It's just one dialogue with Colonel Moore thehumandignity posted:Uh. Vulpes massacres a town for no reason. The people of Nipton were planning on betraying their clients, NCR soldiers and Powder Gangers, to the Legion. The majority of people you see in the town as victims are Powder Gangers, who kill outsiders and take their stuff. That doesn't excuse killing them all for propaganda purposes, but Moore wants the Courier to kill two communities of murky-to-bad people. Vulpes only kills one. As for the Khans aren't raiders in New Vegas, and I might be misremembering, but they aren't really raiders in Fallout 2 either. In that game the hero is hired to go to the Khans' ancestral home and massacre all of them so that NCR can salvage the technology there. So I Don't think it's inappropriate to say the NCR are the bad guys in that situation. Seriously the worst thing the Khans have ever done onscreen is kidnap Tandi. That's pretty small potatoes. Republican Vampire fucked around with this message at 07:05 on May 10, 2012 |
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May 10, 2012 07:03
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CommissarMega posted:Fair enough- but you have to admit, that without the Courier, the Legion would have won the same way the Cong did; demoralizing the troops and the civvies to the point where the war would have been untenable. ... And then the vast majority of them are brutally enslaved, the women treated especially harshly while every social construct and convention they have, including the basic building block of the family is thrown out in favor of worshiping Ceasar. I'd argue the atrocities the Legion commits on populaces it controls might be worse than the rather horrific slaughter they perpetuate. I mean getting crucified lasts for a few hours/days of agony. Living as a slave and being constantly raped can last decades until they decide you've outlived your usefulness/looks and torture or kill you for sport. Basically, no, the Legion is never going to be the choice that decreases bloodshed/atrocities.
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May 10, 2012 07:05
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DemonNick posted:As for the Khans aren't raiders in New Vegas, and I might be misremembering, but they aren't really raiders in Fallout 2 either. In that game the hero is hired to go to the Khans' ancestral home and massacre all of them so that NCR can salvage the technology there. So I Don't think it's inappropriate to say the NCR are the bad guys in that situation. Seriously the worst thing the Khans have ever done is kidnap Tandi. That's pretty small potatoes. They were raiders in FO2, you just don't see them raid. They also extort the squatters around the Vault. That said, the NCR's hatred for them, especially now that FO2's events have long since ended, is a little overmuch.
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May 10, 2012 07:06
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CommissarMega posted:They were raiders in FO2, you just don't see them raid. They also extort the squatters around the Vault. That said, the NCR's hatred for them, especially now that FO2's events have long since ended, is a little overmuch. Fair enough. For what it's worth, NCR runs what amounts to a terror campaign in that game (They pay Bishop to pay raiders to harass and attack vault city), so it's not like their hands are clean.
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May 10, 2012 07:10
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DemonNick posted:Fair enough. For what it's worth, NCR runs what amounts to a terror campaign in that game (They pay Bishop to pay raiders to harass and attack vault city), so it's not like their hands are clean. The way I see it, the Legion is just a lot like the early NCR, just a bit more in-your-face with their evils; sure, they might send infiltrators like Vulpes to do some behind-the-scenes wetwork, but at the end of the day, they're going to leave "LEGION WUZ HERE YO" signs everywhere. The NCR? Without the hero bringing proof of the NCR's work to VC, it would never have got out.
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May 10, 2012 07:20
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Zore posted:... And then the vast majority of them are brutally enslaved, the women treated especially harshly while every social construct and convention they have, including the basic building block of the family is thrown out in favor of worshiping Ceasar. I think this is one of those things that is murky at best and would've benefited from seeing more Legion territory. Not everyone is brutally enslaved to become a rape factory/brainwashed grunt. Dale Barton isn't a member of the Legion or anything, he just has a mutually beneficial trade relationship with them. In several of the Legion endings (with Caesar alive) its mentioned that some are enslaved and others peacefully lorded over, and Primm even stays open for regular business. Cass says they enslave all women, but would they steal away, say, Dale Barton's wife or whatever, or a prominent female trader? We don't really know, and Cass is wrong about a lot of things. The question that's never answered is who is enslaved and who isn't, and at first I kinda assumed it was any town/group that defies the Legion, but some of the slaves seemed to be from regular towns overrun by the Legion. They also supposedly kill all the men and leave the boys when assimilating a tribe, but with the Great Khans they only kill off the old and infirm, and also the female members become officers' wives? But since when are Legionnaires married? And then there's that one slave boy who's such a sickly little wimp they let him slave it up with his mom and sister. So yeah, more insight into their modus operandi would shed some light on it, but for now its just a lot of guesswork. Wolfsheim fucked around with this message at 07:41 on May 10, 2012 |
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May 10, 2012 07:39
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Wolfsheim posted:I think this is one of those things that is murky at best and would've benefited from seeing more Legion territory. Not everyone is brutally enslaved to become a rape factory/brainwashed grunt. Dale Barton isn't a member of the Legion or anything, he just has a mutually beneficial trade relationship with them. In several of the Legion endings (with Caesar alive) its mentioned that some are enslaved and others peacefully lorded over, and Primm even stays open for regular business. Cass says they enslave all women, but would they steal away, say, Dale Barton's wife or whatever, or a prominent female trader? We don't really know, and Cass is wrong about a lot of things. Its the issue of multiple writers rearing its head I'm guessing, and you're right that the Legion does not universally practice those atrocities in game.x However, it does practice them on a large scale even on towns that didn't really resist as you noted. And the poo poo that Legionaires will say to even the female Courier walking around Ceasar's camp gives some credence to Cass' report, there is a deep and cultural disrespect of women on pretty much every level there. Regardless, I'd argue the fact that the Legion practices that kind of slavery at all is so incredibly hosed up as to negate any of their positive points. Edit: Note I'm not defending or supporting the NCR here, just calling out the Legion for being so ridiculously evil and nearly indefensible. Zore fucked around with this message at 07:50 on May 10, 2012 |
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May 10, 2012 07:47
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Zore posted:Its the issue of multiple writers rearing its head I'm guessing, and you're right that the Legion does not universally practice those atrocities in game.x Oh yeah no, I'm not defending them as paragons of virtue or anything, but there is a distinction between "they are going to crucify everyone you've ever known then rape the rest to death" versus "they may crucify everyone you've ever known then rape the rest to death." Also, the whole slavery thing is kinda weird, because its so goddamn prominent in Fallout that I might just be relieved to be enslaved by a group that's not also going to strap a bomb to my neck, or simply not have to fight giant scorpions every day in a continued effort to not slowly starve to death.
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May 10, 2012 07:57
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Legion uses bomb collars though?
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May 10, 2012 15:34
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Legion are the assholes. About the Great Khans, the Legion hate them too. It's mentioned in the Legion representative in the Khan's camp SPOILER That the rep believes that they are too savage and that after the battle is done they should all be killed. Both NCR and Legion are bad, but both have their perks.
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May 10, 2012 16:03
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Zore posted:Edit: Note I'm not defending or supporting the NCR here, just calling out the Legion for being so ridiculously evil and nearly indefensible. I think that's part of the real issue. The NCR is, fairly, probably a fairly lovely place in a lot of ways, but the alternatives are so awful they come off looking pretty good.
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May 10, 2012 16:43
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Zore posted:Its the issue of multiple writers rearing its head I'm guessing, and you're right that the Legion does not universally practice those atrocities in game.x Also it'd help if there were legion civilians on the Strip, in Freeside, etc. It's implied, what with the Families having and using Legion money. It also would've allowed for more barkstrings. As it is, like, 90% of them are NCR Civilians being super bloodthirsty.
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May 10, 2012 18:32
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DemonNick posted:Also it'd help if there were legion civilians on the Strip, in Freeside, etc. It's implied, what with the Families having and using Legion money. It also would've allowed for more barkstrings. As it is, like, 90% of them are NCR Civilians being super bloodthirsty. No, that isn't what's implied. What's implied is that there are a lot of merchants happily making a profit in Legion territory to the point the Strip accepts their money. There are no legionaries on the Strip; that would go against everything Caesar tried to condition the tribals to be.
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May 10, 2012 20:42
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Saoshyant posted:No, that isn't what's implied. What's implied is that there are a lot of merchants happily making a profit in Legion territory to the point the Strip accepts their money. There are no legionaries on the Strip; that would go against everything Caesar tried to condition the tribals to be. Legionaries != Legion civilians, though, which is what he said.
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May 10, 2012 20:56
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I think part of the problem is that Caesar orders you to kill House before he will even talk to you about his philosophy. He also just has way less dialog than the other factions. If he got some talking and sent you on some minor missions before ordering you to kill House I think more people would go that way. On my first playthrough I stuck with House and NCR for a while because you can follow both quest lines simultaneously for a long time before you have to make a choice. With the Legion you pretty much have no time to decide. It doesn't help that Caesar is just an rear end in a top hat to you, even House is more polite. It's a shame because while the Legion is evil, they have some fun quests and Caesar's back story is well written.
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May 10, 2012 22:07
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I think the biggest shame of all is that a lot of people just play roughly the same each time, based on their own emotions and views. I mean, I think the Legion could've been better portrayed, absolutely. But even so, it's still fun to create a character that would support them. Especially if you go all out anti-NCR. It's too bad that there aren't too many Legion quests though. Still, the game really has plenty of content despite that for you to do. And Arizona Killer is one of the best quests in the game, no contest. And some options are just fun, plain ol' dick-moves, like selling Arcade to Caesar. Would be fun to just lay out a big ol' map, detailing all quests in the game with various ways how to solve them (good or bad, direct solutions or "improvised" solutions).
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May 10, 2012 22:45
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