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Oh Snapple! posted:Mind that I'm not being entirely hostile toward Jezal. Fear in itself isn't an inherently bad thing for a person (though I enjoy seeing characters overcome it to do the right thing), the issue is again that the narrative pushes these circumstances upon him which make his growth useless: He either sighs, does what he's told, and tries to do a small thing here and there (and even then this is a "maybe" because we haven't really seen if he was every able to, say, get that hospital built); or he doesn't, gets killed, and Bayaz replaces him with someone who will. Conversely, Bayaz has arguably done a lot of good through his machinations. One of his ultimate goals after all is the establishment of a stable and prosperous civilization despite caring very little for individual lives. You could argue that he's simply taken the broader view as a natural product of his age and power. I feel like author is exploring how morality really interacts with Gandalf like characters in Bayaz' case, and just painting an honest appraisal of human faults in Jezal's.
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May 14, 2012 06:50
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UncleMonkey posted:Shivers was a very sympathetic character for me. That's what made it hurt so much when he just became a sociopath. That's what makes it so tragic, that he's genuinely trying to be a better person and awful things happen to him that push him over the edge.
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May 14, 2012 07:23
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Above Our Own posted:I think the point isn't that the growth is "useless," but rather the author is demonstrating that one-dimensional paragons of good or evil don't really exist. Jezal ends up being a pretty vitreous guy but he's not an unfailing white knight. I like characters like these because they strike me as more realistic and complex. Your point about Bayaz is undercut slightly by the fact that he set off a magical equivalent of a nuclear bomb in a crowded city, killing thousands. I think the point is that Jezal has character development, he genuinely wants to do good and Abercrombie nurtures the idea that he could be a genuinely good king. Then he pisses all over that with Bayaz scaring him. It always seemed weird to me given that Jezal hadn't backed down from previous fights, but somehow Bayaz making his stomach hurt broke every resolve he had. Also I've said before that it Jezal is said to be a great card player, yet is somehow completely unable to read people. It feels like a disconnect in characterisation. In the end I understand that Abercrombie wants to fight back against the whole idea of stupidly optimistic fantasy. But I feel that he's gone too far the other way; having nobody end up in a better position at the end of a novel is just as unrealistic as having everybody end up in a better position. The problem is I don't think that there's any balance to the books. It's all bad, everybody has bad stuff happen to them, nothing ends up better than at the start. Except Bayaz. Still, it's hard to like it when someone objectively evil keeps on winning. As mentioned before, I'll read the other books hoping that he falls, but knowing Abercrombie it'll probably end up with somebody even worse taking over. Also for all the talk about Abercrombie bucking trends, he's as reluctant as any author to kill off his major PoV characters. I wrote earlier in this thread that the only two were Logen (possibly) and West (probaby) but the latest book shows I was wrong on the first one.
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May 14, 2012 08:22
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Plucky Brit posted:In the end I understand that Abercrombie wants to fight back against the whole idea of stupidly optimistic fantasy. But I feel that he's gone too far the other way; having nobody end up in a better position at the end of a novel is just as unrealistic as having everybody end up in a better position. The problem is I don't think that there's any balance to the books. It's all bad, everybody has bad stuff happen to them, nothing ends up better than at the start. And that reminds me, there was a character I heartily disliked despite the characters in this series being products of their environment and all that: Arch Lector Sult. The man came off as the most evil person in the series, only not at all powerful as Bayaz for example. And he was a believable character as well, nothing unrealistic about him.
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May 14, 2012 08:51
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Plucky Brit posted:I think the point is that Jezal has character development, he genuinely wants to do good and Abercrombie nurtures the idea that he could be a genuinely good king. Then he pisses all over that with Bayaz scaring him. It always seemed weird to me given that Jezal hadn't backed down from previous fights, but somehow Bayaz making his stomach hurt broke every resolve he had. Also I've said before that it Jezal is said to be a great card player, yet is somehow completely unable to read people. It feels like a disconnect in characterisation. And while the objectively evil dude got his way in TFL, it was the opposite in Best Served Cold, where we got to see Shenkt, who seems to be against the way Bayaz and Khalul do things, start setting up a power base and opposition to them. And not every protagonist in the books ends up worse, there's Monza, who ends up ruling and having a more positive outlook on life. There's Cosca and Friendly, who both found friendship and purpose with eachother and the mercenary company. There's the red-haired ex inquisitor lady who is now one of Monza's chief advisers and doesn't have to worry about feeding her kids or finding a doctor for them now. Even Morveer had a happy ending of sorts. TFL had more of the protagonists getting poo poo on overall but there's still Glokta, as the poster above me mentioned, and Ardee both being in a better place at the end. Ferro got what she wanted in the end also. But TFL was building up all series to just how much of a bastard Bayaz was, and when Bayaz is around trying to make events bend to his will people get hosed. That's probably why there were less happy endings in the Heroes.
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May 14, 2012 14:45
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I think there is definitely character growth but I can see where hes coming from, it's usually tempered by the nihilistic world view of the author. Bayaz escaping everything relatively unscathed is getting a little exasperating as well. The red heads name is Shylo Vitari by the way, I forget that one all the time and have to keep looking it up 
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May 14, 2012 16:00
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savinhill posted:Even Morveer had a happy ending of sorts.
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May 14, 2012 17:32
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UncleMonkey posted:Wait, doesn't Morveer get killed by Cosca after a failed attempt to poison him? Yes but BSC spoilers he lives on as an infamous poisoner/assassin after Monza blames all of the deaths at the end on him. His character always wanted acceptance and recognition so in a way it's probably the happiest ending he could get.
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May 14, 2012 18:03
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Ahhhh ok. I never thought of it like that. That makes sense.
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May 14, 2012 18:07
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I forgot to mention a lot of things about BSC in my last post and one of them was definitely Cosca. Spoilers for BSC and GRRM's A Storm of Swords: When he was first introduced, he was a combination of mildly interesting and mildly annoying. I liked it how he saved the day by killing the demon summoner with his badass knife throw, but that's about it. However in BSC he became one of my favorite characters in Abercrombie's books. I think I actually winced when Ganmark pierced him with his swords. Cosca is the first character whose death has bothered me after Tywin Lannister. And when Cosca came back, well... it was cool of course, but really unbelievable as well. For a long while I actually suspected it was an Eater posing as Cosca or something (Shenkt maybe). But seeing as it really was Cosca, it's difficult to fathom how he survived. As he said, he got it in the guts and even though no vital organs were destroyed, what about infections? Seemed like real plot armor to me. And while I've mentioned Ganmark, I have to say that he too managed to go from a totally "I don't care about this guy" kind of character to really awesome in a really quick time and short span. His mannerisms and lines did it when he was fighting Monza. Abercrombie knows how to write vivid characters. I just returned from the library with The Heroes (and GRRM's Dreamsongs and some anthology of Extreme Fantasy as well, as they were there). More to read, cool.
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May 14, 2012 18:38
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Rurik posted:And when Cosca came back, well... it was cool of course, but really unbelievable as well. For a long while I actually suspected it was an Eater posing as Cosca or something (Shenkt maybe). But seeing as it really was Cosca, it's difficult to fathom how he survived. As he said, he got it in the guts and even though no vital organs were destroyed, what about infections? Seemed like real plot armor to me. Come on, it's motherfuckin' Cosca. He refused to die, he hadn't paid back Morveer for calling him a drunk yet (plus all those years of boozing it up probably killed every living thing in his intestinal tract). 
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May 14, 2012 19:16
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Quick question, what music do you guys listen to while reading this series? I've been listening to a chick band called Warpaint. They really seem to nail a grim battle environment. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssGW6n3YCHQ
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May 14, 2012 20:23
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Rurik posted:That's what bothered me - the unrealistic amount of poo poo thrown at Shivers. Getting tortured and losing an eye in that scenario isn't that far off, but what are the chances that that one fat Northman happened to hold a grudge against Shivers and tried to kill him in that brothel? ...He didn't, he held a grudge against Ninefingers and because he was pretty much a functional retard, Shivers, playing Logen, was the next best thing. Plucky Brit posted:Your point about Bayaz is undercut slightly by the fact that he set off a magical equivalent of a nuclear bomb in a crowded city, killing thousands. It wasn't just "making his stomach hurt", it was unimaginable pain given without any effort at all from a guy who Jezal had seen explode people with a thought a dozen times beforehand, right after he said he was just the spawn of a random prostitute, all the previous kings were just useless idiots and he can pick any chucklefuck in the street and make him the king and has done so several times in the past. What would you do? It's like if Henry Kissinger was immortal, except he has been that since the 1700's when he bought George Washington from a whorehouse in Virginia and made him the president. You don't say "no" to a guy like that. Rurik posted:Glokta? DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 21:30 on May 14, 2012 |
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May 14, 2012 21:23
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DarkCrawler posted:...He didn't, he held a grudge against Ninefingers and because he was pretty much a functional retard, Shivers, playing Logen, was the next best thing. Logen wasn't involved in the attack that got his little brother killed, it was Dogman and the rest of the crew when they took over that port town. He didn't know who killed his brother but he knew Shivers was there and that was enough for him. Black Dow was the one who actually killed him.
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May 15, 2012 00:54
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Let's be fair, he probably had a grudge against Logen too. Everyone in the north does.
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May 15, 2012 01:26
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Re-reading the trilogy right now and am really enjoying it. It's definitely one to reread The greatest is just going back and rereading Bayaz and how just ruthlessly manipulates everyone, including the reader. He's seen as this gentle sleeping giant, who's a good man,but can be deadly when angered. Then it's just holy gently caress!!
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May 15, 2012 04:35
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Agreed. I really wish I could read TFL for the first time again.
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May 15, 2012 05:02
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Who are the two figures under The Makers' arms in the house Severard buys for Glokta's torturing-needs? Drives me nuts as he ties up most everything else related to the past, but all I can think is Tolomei and..?
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May 15, 2012 18:54
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The heroes is his best book by far in my opinion. Also, as far as killing major people off, I think that's a trend to buck in itself. Seriously everything is a cliche trend now. He has his style and he's sticking to it. Life is hopeless if you take a violent path.
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May 15, 2012 19:09
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Evfedu posted:Who are the two figures under The Makers' arms in the house Severard buys for Glokta's torturing-needs? He had an assistant, when Bayaz goes into the house of The Maker to prove who he is Glokta asked him who lived there. He said in the end only 3, The Maker, Tolomei and The Maker's assistant. He says his name but I cant remember it and don't have the book with me to grab it. It always stood out to me because nothing is ever mentioned of this assistant again after that.
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May 16, 2012 00:04
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Have there been any previews of the new book yet other than the cover and confirmation that Yes, Logen is in it
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May 16, 2012 01:40
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Clinton1011 posted:He had an assistant, when Bayaz goes into the house of The Maker to prove who he is Glokta asked him who lived there. He said in the end only 3, The Maker, Tolomei and The Maker's assistant. He says his name but I cant remember it and don't have the book with me to grab it. It always stood out to me because nothing is ever mentioned of this assistant again after that. Wasn't it Bayaz himself? After he left Juvens to go learn from the Maker because he wanted more power, he became the Maker's assistant, yes? He didn't tell them it was him at the time because he was still putting on the show that he had been Juvens' loyal servant the whole time instead of a backstabbing powermonger. Of course it's been a while since I read TFL so I could be wrong.
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May 16, 2012 01:45
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Yeah, it's Bayaz.
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May 16, 2012 08:14
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Fly Molo posted:Come on, it's motherfuckin' Cosca. He refused to die, he hadn't paid back Morveer for calling him a drunk yet (plus all those years of boozing it up probably killed every living thing in his intestinal tract). What did people think about Morveer? Was Abercrombie again breaking tropes concerning his character, since I can imagine in any other series that kind of misunderstood yet still witty and edgy poisoner would've been really liked character. Morveer however came off to me more as that kind of person really would: a whiny piece of poo poo. I didn't like him (though he was funny, but not in a likeable way) and his death didn't inconvenience me (unlike the apparent death of Cosca). Also, who's the character we haven't yet seen you want to see the most? Mine's definitely Khalul.
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May 16, 2012 11:57
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I had the same thoughts about Morveer. Fun to read about, fun to punch if he was in front of me in real life. And definitely Khalul, I want to see his side of the story. And the other Magus too.
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May 16, 2012 14:25
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Yeah, I didn't like Morveer at all. Wasn't overtly fond of Day either. But I definitely enjoyed hating them.
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May 16, 2012 15:01
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The other magus seem to just fall in line with Bayaz, are there any that support Khalul?
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May 16, 2012 17:37
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Above Our Own posted:Conversely, Bayaz has arguably done a lot of good through his machinations. One of his ultimate goals after all is the establishment of a stable and prosperous civilization despite caring very little for individual lives. You could argue that he's simply taken the broader view as a natural product of his age and power. It's not very stable or prosperous. It's his own little fiefdom that's just like the one in the empire to the south, with the difference being he hasn't set himself up as a religious figure. It's just a difference in technique. Bayaz so far is the villain of the series.
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May 16, 2012 18:01
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DarkCrawler posted:But on the other hand, his motivation was to end the kingdom's dependence on Bayaz, so actually he was KIND of a good guy in the wider scope of the series. Those who work for Bayaz seem to have much less reason to fear their master than those who worked for Sult. Think where Glokta would've have ended up without Valint and Balk because of Sult and where Jezal ended up because of Bayaz. I'm almost halfway through The Heroes and I doubt if there's any good guy in the series. That's the point probably. Tunny is probably one of the most good because of his lack of ambition and position from which he can do little harm. Am I the only one who imagines him as Rowan Atkinson by the way? He comes off as Blackadder-esque.
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May 16, 2012 18:49
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Just finished Best Served Cold, are there any clues as to who Shenkt is supposed to be? I want to say that it's Yulwei; he broke out of the tower and now he's pissed.
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May 16, 2012 19:28
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I think he's just supposed to be one of the many people that Bayaz has used over the years, who finally realized what an awful piece of poo poo he is.
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May 16, 2012 19:48
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I like roffles' idea better.
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May 16, 2012 19:56
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wellwhoopdedooo posted:I like roffles' idea better. Yulwei was one of Juvens's students like Bayaz - they are equals. Shenkt was one of Bayaz's students that Bayaz made an eater like Yoru Sulfur. At the end encounter Yoru Sulfur says "Our master" and Shenkt replies "Your master, I have none, anymore, remember? I told him I was done."
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May 16, 2012 20:11
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Hollis posted:The other magus seem to just fall in line with Bayaz, are there any that support Khalul? Only Yulwei is his true ally, everyone else are doing their own thing or don't give a gently caress about it all, really. But no other one is allied with Khalul, at least to our knowledge. Mamun had apparently reached a level enough to challenge Bayaz or Yulwei in combat and he was probably the first apprentice of any of the Magus... roffles posted:Just finished Best Served Cold, are there any clues as to who Shenkt is supposed to be? I want to say that it's Yulwei; he broke out of the tower and now he's pissed. If he would have been Yulwei, Sulfur would have shat his pants. Rurik posted:I don't know. He wanted to end the kingdom's dependence on Bayaz and become king himself. Would he have been a nice monarch? He sent Glokta to his death (Dagoska) and was very surprised when he came back, meaning he expected him to die. He also tortures innocent people willingly to get political confessions and doesn't care about the truth at all - not a good man to lead the House of Questions or be a boss of much anything. True, I suppose. He might have been worse or not better, anyway. Most of the time Bayaz is not that bad of an overlord, but when things go bad be ready to be sacrificed like a pig for the greater "good", in mass numbers. I think Dogman is a good guy, overall, or at least in the grey zone. Jezal is good through his experiences, and tries to do his best even when constrained by Bayaz. The Grand Marshal whose name escapes me becomes a decent man as showcased in Heroes, also due to his experiences in war. That's all I can think of, really.
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May 17, 2012 11:10
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Dogman's probably the only true 'good guy' in the series. For this he gets constantly poo poo on throughout. While this is an assumption, it seems to make sense. Shenkt is part of the second generation of Magi, along with guys like Sulfur, Mamun, and Ishri. I'm assuming after the original group, Magi could only be made through eating human flesh. That second generation is almost on par with the lesser of the original Magi, while later 'generations' are the foot soldier Eaters who get beaten by Northmen and regular type guy. Additionally, Shenkt is the husband of Vitari and the father of her children. HeroOfTheRevolution fucked around with this message at 22:11 on May 17, 2012 |
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May 17, 2012 22:08
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:Additionally, Shenkt is the husband of Vitari and the father of her children.  to  in the space of a few paragraphs.
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May 17, 2012 22:52
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:while later 'generations' are the foot soldier Eaters who get beaten by Northmen and regular type guy. Malacus Quai wasn't anEater but then again he wasn't a really good apprentice.
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May 17, 2012 23:59
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Clinton1011 posted:Malacus Quai wasn't anEater but then again he wasn't a really good apprentice. He also wasn't himself for most of The First Law, so...
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May 18, 2012 00:22
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I love the fact taht on this reread there's a definitive change in the books where Bayaz apprentice before the journey has a completely different tone to his story, then there's the incredibly sinister when Bayaz is asleep and says it would be so easy to kill him Really enjoying the read through again just got to Ferro and Logen having sex in the cave, here's the thing though before this while their in the cave. Something happens and Logen says " What was that" was he referring to Ferro saving his life again underneath the waters?
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May 18, 2012 04:23
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UncleMonkey posted:This was such a great moment in the book. I went from "Oh no, Shylo!"
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May 18, 2012 08:27
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