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Mak0rz posted:A recognizable/unique character isn't necessarily indicative of a well-designed character. ^^^^ exactly, their outfits communicate their character. This was done well in FFVII and FFVIII, but since then has gotten progressively more terrible, peaking at Seymour's Hair, Tidus' pantaloons, and FFX-2 in it's entirety. They used to be visually engaging because of style, then they got visually engaging just because What the hell am I seeing here?
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May 18, 2012 19:13
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Mak0rz posted:If I remember right, Sephiroth's HP is scaled to your level. I had about the same amount of trouble killing him at level 56 as I did at level 86. Apparently he becomes ridiculously tough to kill once all of your dudes are at level 99. I'm thought they only introduced HP scaling in 8, because all the monsters in 7 have a set HP that doesn't change. Sephiroth's HP isn't in the strategy guide, though, so perhaps he was an exception. In any case, I was also leveling my Knights of the Round and Mime materia to level 2 so I just had to summon it once and then hit mime to kill him, no effort or actual fighting needed. fake edit: I just looked it up, and it looks like his HP DOES scale. gently caress. I spent a month grinding for nothing. gently caress you, strategy guide. Why didn't you mention this?  As far as stupid character design, Zell annoys me way too much. Just look at how loving dumb his pants look. What the hell is wrong with them? It's like he has huge puffy cylinders on his legs. And why are they so high up on his body?  I know some of this is because of the hardware limitations of the time, but even the way he moves annoys me. Look how dumb he looks bouncing back and forth during a fight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPEo22inbK4 It's like they were trying to make him as obnoxious as possible.
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May 18, 2012 19:33
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Zell's pretty much just wearing those huge JNCO jorts that were so popular when I was in middle school in the mid-late 90s
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May 18, 2012 19:34
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Pablo Gigante posted:Zell's pretty much just wearing those huge JNCO jorts that were so popular when I was in middle school in the mid-late 90s Yeah, you could pretty much find people who looked like that in real life without even trying too hard back in the day. You probably wouldn't like those people but then, who can say they really like Zell's personality?
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May 18, 2012 19:38
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JoeyJoJoJr Shabadoo posted:
Zell was the beginning of the end for FF fashion. "Hey FF is futuristic now, let's make our characters look hip! Is hip still a word that is used?"
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May 18, 2012 19:39
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It's done. The original NES Final Fantasy is now behind me. The ending dialogue was weird as hell. It just repeated the same three slides of text over and over again, except worded differently. Though, I do miss the good old days when video games congratulated you for beating them  Does anyone have any tips for the Famicom Final Fantasy II before I dive into it? Last I remember that game was a grindfest that could give Korean MMORPGs a run for their money. I was thinking of using Gabriel Pope's LP as a guide for the sake of my own sanity because he mercilessly breaks the game in half.
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May 18, 2012 19:43
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To be honest, I don't like Nomura's designs but "it isn't coldly utilitarian with every bit of clothing serving a practical purpose" is like the least of its problems. The point of a character design is to communicate things to the view, not to be practical. Obviously you can't get too ridiculous but practicality isn't particularly important as long as it is communicating things well. The problems with Gimpmask McBeltsandzippers from DoC or whatever is that they don't communicate anything except maybe "I am a bad mans." There's no personality to the design from a visual perspective, it's just random excess. The character has no personality and his character design just exacerbates that. The FFVII designs are a mixed bag as well. Cloud is fine. Just looking at him gives you everything you need to know about the character. (Or how the character presents himself at least.) The oversized sword and glowing eyes are good symbolism for "he is unnaturally strong," the uniform implies his soldier background, and the spiky hair gives him a distinctive visual from any distance. It isn't great but it's functional. Tifa, on the other hand, is awful. She's supposed to be a girl-next-door type who is also a kung-fu fighter and her design just... doesn't communicate that at all. Her design is like they came up with "fanservice" first and never really altered it. Her AC design isn't exactly fantastic but it communicates the character a lot better. It doesn't matter that her first is simple because it's not very good at communicating the character. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 19:49 on May 18, 2012 |
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May 18, 2012 19:44
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ImpAtom posted:To be honest, I don't like Nomura's designs but "it isn't coldly utilitarian with every bit of clothing serving a practical purpose" is like the least of its problems. The point of a character design is to communicate things to the view, not to be practical. Obviously you can't get too ridiculous but practicality isn't particularly important as long as it is communicating things well. That's it in a nutshell. "Random excess" is the best description of the style, and exactly what pisses me off when looking at so much of it.
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May 18, 2012 19:48
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Like everything else in DoC I'm pretty sure Nomura was phoning it in.
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May 18, 2012 19:51
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Mak0rz posted:Does anyone have any tips for the Famicom Final Fantasy II before I dive into it? Last I remember that game was a grindfest that could give Korean MMORPGs a run for their money. I was thinking of using Gabriel Pope's LP as a guide for the sake of my own sanity because he mercilessly breaks the game in half. Breaking the game is basically your only option if you want to make it through with any shred of sanity. I seem to recall the same being said in the last thread: Final Fantasy II is a bad game. But, if you want to enjoy a bad game, it's a good bad game to enjoy.
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May 18, 2012 19:54
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I agree with ImpAtom on designs serving as visual representations of the character's attitude and practicality being pretty much unimportant. Something that was brought up in the FFVIII LP thread was how pretty much every character's design fit their personality quite well. JoeyJoJoJr mentioned Zell being obnoxious and he definitely is. That's communicated very well in his design. The same applies to Seifer who has my favorite design in the game. 
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May 18, 2012 19:54
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ImpAtom posted:Tifa, on the other hand, is awful. She's supposed to be a girl-next-door type who is also a kung-fu fighter and her design just... doesn't communicate that at all. Her design is like they came up with "fanservice" first and never really altered it. Her AC design isn't exactly fantastic but it communicates the character a lot better. It doesn't matter that her first is simple because it's not very good at communicating the character. Actualy Tifa and Aerith's designs are kind of interesting because in many ways they give you expectations that they're different archetypes then they really are. It actually fits pretty well with how Cloud presents himself as a tough soldier type when he's really kind of an insecure dork.
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May 18, 2012 19:55
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Dr Pepper posted:Basically Nomura has two ways to design characters. There's his mostly "Modern day styles with an occasional twist" from TWEWY, FF7, and FF13 etc that most people seem to like. Then there's his "fantastic fantasy outfits" from FFX, Kingdom Hearts, etc that people don't like. Mak0rz posted:It's done. The original NES Final Fantasy is now behind me. The ending dialogue was weird as hell. quote:Does anyone have any tips for the Famicom Final Fantasy II before I dive into it? Fur20 fucked around with this message at 20:07 on May 18, 2012 |
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May 18, 2012 19:57
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Dr Pepper posted:Actualy Tifa and Aerith's designs are kind of interesting because in many ways they give you expectations that they're different archetypes then they really are. It actually fits pretty well with how Cloud presents himself as a tough soldier type when he's really kind of an insecure dork. And then everyone assumed they actually were those different archetypes so hard Square themselves began to believe it.
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May 18, 2012 20:02
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Dr Pepper posted:Actualy Tifa and Aerith's designs are kind of interesting because in many ways they give you expectations that they're different archetypes then they really are. It actually fits pretty well with how Cloud presents himself as a tough soldier type when he's really kind of an insecure dork. That seems like it was deliberate. You're supposed to go in thinking Tifa is the rowdy fightwench and Aeris is the demure damsel. They weren't. (also, gently caress the compilation) Honestly, the only bothersome thing I found about Tifa was why she didn't just roundhouse Scarlet off the top of that cannon rather than get into a slapfight. You could write it off, though, by saying she was either high on gas from narrowly escaping the chamber, or was giddily transfixed by the sheer novelty of simply slapping an annoying person repeatedly, rather than employ her normal tactic (highly effective against giant monsters and robots and such) of just punching it apart.
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May 18, 2012 20:05
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The White Dragon posted:Yeah, don't play it. Do Dawn of Souls or even that ugly-rear end looks-like-it-was-drawn-in-Flash super deformed PSP remake, but stay far, far away from the NES one. Not an option  I'll just rip the game to shreds like Pope did. I didn't care much for the DoS version and the Origins version fixed the fun bugs while maintaining the bad ones. Mazed posted:Honestly, the only bothersome thing I found about Tifa was why she didn't just roundhouse Scarlet off the top of that cannon rather than get into a slapfight. One of my favorite lines in VII happens during this scene: "Stuck-up bitch!" Mak0rz fucked around with this message at 20:30 on May 18, 2012 |
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May 18, 2012 20:15
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Dr Pepper posted:Actualy Tifa and Aerith's designs are kind of interesting because in many ways they give you expectations that they're different archetypes then they really are. It actually fits pretty well with how Cloud presents himself as a tough soldier type when he's really kind of an insecure dork. While this is true, I think you can see the difference between Aerith and Tifa more clearly. Aerith is, at first glance, communicating the "pink pure princess" kind of design. However, second glance reveals inconsistancies with that. She is wearing a pink dress, but with a darker red jacket overtop. Instead of the heels/stylish shoes you'd get in a lot of princess-y designs, she's wearing thick heavy boots. The metal bracelets make no sense but are thick and heavy looking. It gives her an overall 'rougher' look that isn't apparent at first glance. Honestly, as far as communicating the character goes, Aerith is probably one of the better designs in FFVII. With Tifa, there's supposed to be a division but it isn't communicated through the visuals. The idea you'd get from looking at her is different from what she actually is, but without much of the Aerith-style subversion of the design. I really dislike most of the FFVIII designs, but Seifer is a good one. He looks like a confident self-aggrandizing douchebag from the very start but his clothing gradually becomes ripped and tattered and by the end he looks frankly kind of pathetic. Just showing someone Seifer's design and its progression communicates his character arc without needing to know anything else about the character.
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May 18, 2012 20:34
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Mak0rz posted:It's done. The original NES Final Fantasy is now behind me. The ending dialogue was weird as hell. It just repeated the same three slides of text over and over again, except worded differently. Though, I do miss the good old days when video games congratulated you for beating them I'm just going to look at this image every time I finish a game  Epi Lepi posted:Yeah, you could pretty much find people who looked like that in real life without even trying too hard back in the day. You probably wouldn't like those people but then, who can say they really like Zell's personality? I found a sickening number of fan art of him naked and people dressing up as him (some naked) when I was searching for that image, so unfortunately, there are people that like him. Quite a lot. I was going to mention that Hope from 13 is kind of similar to him in terms of looks, and went to look for a picture, and then I saw the same type of fanart, and I don't want to play anymore. What in the gently caress is wrong with these people? He's a kid for gently caress's sake. Ugh, I'm done looking up characters.
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May 18, 2012 20:42
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W.T. Fits posted:Question: when people complain about Nomura's character designs looking terrible, are they thinking of the actual characters or the costumes the characters are wearing? His character designs are just 'blonde gackt', or sometimes just 'gackt'. If you looked at a naked tidus next to a naked vaan, you would have absolutely no way of knowing which was which. Ignite Memories fucked around with this message at 20:50 on May 18, 2012 |
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May 18, 2012 20:46
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pw pw pw posted:His character designs are just 'blonde gackt', or sometimes just 'gackt'. So...he can only do Gackt.
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May 18, 2012 21:00
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pw pw pw posted:If you looked at a naked tidus next to a naked vaan, you would have absolutely no way of knowing which was which. Uh. Nomura didn't design for FFXII. Akihiko Yoshida did. The same guy who did Vagrant Story/FFT/ect. Seriously, what the hell causes this? Is Nomura the victim of a gypsy curse or something?
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May 18, 2012 21:09
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ImpAtom posted:Uh. Nomura didn't design for FFXII. Akihiko Yoshida did. Ah that's right, he did the Tactics stuff too right? (edit: answered) That explains why XII stands out as different (much better) than those before and after.
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May 18, 2012 21:13
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pw pw pw posted:His character designs are just 'blonde gackt', or sometimes just 'gackt'. Well, for starters, I could look at their faces, which are pretty distinct from each other, even accounting for that weird racial shift Tidus goes through in FFX when the game transitions from in-game models to FMV land. (Also, Vaan wasn't a Tetsuya Nomura design, for what it's worth.) e: f, b on the Vaan not being a Nomura design thing.
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May 18, 2012 21:16
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pw pw pw posted:His character designs are just 'blonde gackt', or sometimes just 'gackt'. To be fair though, if you stood a naked NES Fighter sprite next to a naked NES Frionel sprite you wouldn't be able to tell the difference either. Or a PS/GBA/PSP/iOS Knight next to Paladin Cecil, and the only thing differentiating Bartz from these archetypes is his hair color.
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May 18, 2012 21:24
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p.crestmont posted:That explains why XII stands out as different (much better) Does it now? Vaan was just confused as a generic Nomura character and, dear god, Ashe's design is a terrible abortion. Hookers don't dress like that, much less Queens. I love XII, but its character design wasn't "much better".
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May 18, 2012 21:29
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pw pw pw posted:His character designs are just 'blonde gackt', or sometimes just 'gackt'. http://thepunchlineismachismo.com/archives/1055
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May 18, 2012 21:30
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Saoshyant posted:Does it now? Vaan was just confused as a generic Nomura character and, dear god, Ashe's design is a terrible abortion. Hookers don't dress like that, much less Queens. The worst part was when people tried to defend and justify it saying it made sense since she lived in a desert. Except desert people are covered head to toe to protect from the burning sun, horribly dry wind, and to avoid losing much moisture so it doesn't even make sense. Turnip Fritter posted:To be fair though, if you stood a naked NES Fighter sprite next to a naked NES Frionel sprite you wouldn't be able to tell the difference either. Or a PS/GBA/PSP/iOS Knight next to Paladin Cecil, and the only thing differentiating Bartz from these archetypes is his hair color. Calaveron fucked around with this message at 22:25 on May 18, 2012 |
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May 18, 2012 21:35
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Saoshyant posted:Does it now? Vaan was just confused as a generic Nomura character and, dear god, Ashe's design is a terrible abortion. Hookers don't dress like that, much less Queens. I guess I was thinking of Balthier and Basch etc. Basically everything about the game except Vaan and Penelo (I kept them out of my party and generally tried to pretend they were just the kids in the backseat of my adventure). And yes I do think everything about the design and art in XII stood out as much better than those before and after it (except for the sheer quality of XIII, not the style just how drat well the game looked)
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May 18, 2012 21:37
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p.crestmont posted:I guess I was thinking of Balthier and Basch etc. Basically everything about the game except Vaan and Penelo (I kept them out of my party and generally tried to pretend they were just the kids in the backseat of my adventure). Really? I though XII was super generic and boring. Honestly I thought that whole game was a forgettable experience except Balthier because he was Han Solo. But then that's all I remember about him so I guess he was pretty forgettable too.
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May 18, 2012 21:49
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pw pw pw posted:His character designs are just 'blonde gackt', or sometimes just 'gackt'. Hair color, facial structure, height, hair style, skin color. Tidue is also a lot more muscular then Vaan who's kind of a scrawny kid. Also Nomura didn't design Vaan fyi
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May 18, 2012 21:50
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I honestly don't get the complaining over Vaan's design when Ashe exists. I mean loving seriously. Look at that disaster. I can't even begin to describe her clothing situation and how awful it is. I mean it's a terrible clothing design to begin with and then meshing that with her character and... argh. I hate Ashe's loving design so much. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 21:54 on May 18, 2012 |
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May 18, 2012 21:51
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It doesn't look that bad in game. I mean, it looked like a white blouse with a skirt. Then you see the CG renders and realize that there's barely enough cloth on her to be able to be called clothing.
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May 18, 2012 22:01
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Ah, that's news to me! That does explain why the people in XII didn't look quite as lovely. Well, then I just want to direct a little hate toward whatever executive decided to shoehorn vaan in there. Though I believe my rationale for skipping XII was having recently played tactics advance, and not wanting to support the rape of ivalice.
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May 18, 2012 22:03
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ImpAtom posted:I honestly don't get the complaining over Vaan's design when Ashe exists. I mean loving seriously. My favorite detail is the black... thing around her waist. Well, that and the two three-inch pieces of leather that she considers a skirt. If we're gonna talk about embarrassing stuff from FFXII, can we talk about the Elves? Because look at this bullshit:  
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May 18, 2012 22:03
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pw pw pw posted:Ah, that's news to me! That does explain why the people in XII didn't look quite as lovely. Well, then I just want to direct a little hate toward whatever executive decided to shoehorn vaan in there. Don't use rape to describe video game using plot elements you don't like.
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May 18, 2012 22:05
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Epi Lepi posted:Really? I though XII was super generic and boring. Honestly I thought that whole game was a forgettable experience except Balthier because he was Han Solo. But then that's all I remember about him so I guess he was pretty forgettable too. I must admit I remember almost nothing about the game except really enjoying it, how cool Balthier was, and that you should always have Bubble and auto-pheonix down on your characters. I think I liked the style because it was more generic: the outfits, architecture, and everything from say, VIII and X just grated on me. Ashe's outfit was the stupidest thing but I gave it a pass because she wears essentially nothing as a skirt, and I'm all for that. Also the bunny girls were super embarassing.
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May 18, 2012 22:06
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Dr Pepper posted:Don't use rape to describe video game using plot elements you don't like. Sorry, grandma. I really don't like how they took the only established final fantasy setting I ever liked and changed it completely by adding a bunch of awful fantasy races that weren't originally there and replaced an evil church conspiracy with an ill-conceived system of nondenominational judges, solely for the propose of riding the coattails of the last FF game I actually enjoyed, instead of just making it a new world like every other final fantasy ever. This also eliminated the possibility of seeing another game set in the aforementioned universe which I did not hate.
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May 18, 2012 22:20
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You do realize that FFTA and FF12 (Well, most of it) were made by Matsuno. Also Bangaa own.
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May 18, 2012 22:24
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Calaveron posted:All those games had tiny low-res pixelated graphics, so they're not remotely the same. You quoted me but I didn't say that  For characters, I love Edea. She is so evil and dark. I mean, look at this poo poo:      She's just so awesome, like she's going to stab you the second you look away. My favorite part of 8 was being able to play as her.
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May 18, 2012 22:24
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Dr Pepper posted:You do realize that FFTA and FF12 (Well, most of it) were made by Matsuno. I do not believe for a second that he was the one who made the decision to shoehorn those settings together. Hell, he left squeenix shortly after FFXII was finished. Ignite Memories fucked around with this message at 22:36 on May 18, 2012 |
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May 18, 2012 22:28
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