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Fangz posted:Would euthanising the elderly be really unthinkable in such a circumstance? You are being extremely speculative. Nursing homes are considered unfilial, so the idea that people are going to knock off granny for the sake of the economy is questionable.
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Jun 3, 2012 14:01
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You can say the same for traditional attitudes on large families with lots of children, before the One Child Policy drive. And while the motivation for control of birth rates is fairly abstract at the ground level, the financial pressure of having to look after an increasing number of elderly people is something that people are going to directly feel. I'm not saying it's going to happen, but I don't think it's altogether impossible to sell as an idea if the politburo decides this must be done. (Presumeably, it'd start off with various incentives to 'sacrifice yourself for the good of your family and country', and move on to successively stronger pressures.) Fangz fucked around with this message at 15:18 on Jun 3, 2012 |
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Jun 3, 2012 15:15
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Fangz what!  They will probably raise the retirement age before they start contemplating mass murder of the elderly. 60 for men and 50 for women is pretty ridiculous. Also there are filial piety laws on the books; oldsters can sue their kids for not taking care of them. Institutionally I think the Chinese state remains on the side of the old dudes rather than vice versa.
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Jun 3, 2012 15:29
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menino posted:No one is "far worse off" than South Korea, and the few that are (Japan, Germany) are among the wealthiest states in the world. South Korea is a rather sizeable country (50 million) and wealthy, but still in many repsects a newly industrialized state. There may be other factors aside from its militarized ultra-Confucian culture, but that certainly stands out. I suppose if I had to pick one, "militarized" is probably more influential than "ultra-Confucian", but admittedly it's hard to dissect which contributes to which. Actually if you put it that way, you add more evidentce that it's a Confucius thing. Korea has had more authentic Confucius education than China for extended period of time even after they changed the written language from Chinese to Hangul. Maybe somebody can argue the phenomenon of increasingly unmarried singles in the east and west are caused by different social issues?
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Jun 3, 2012 15:58
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whatever7 posted:Actually if you put it that way, you add more evidentce that it's a Confucius thing. Korea has had more authentic Confucius education than China for extended period of time even after they changed the written language from Chinese to Hangul. I agree with both points. Also I think the fact that Korea had a right-wing gov't and China had a left wing gov't after WWII further solidified Korea's uber-Confucian-ness. Mao did a lot of terrible crap, but he at least made some gestures towards eliminating tradition for tradition's sake. Korea has always struck me as a little eddy where all the errant streams of Sinic culture has gotten trapped, stagnated and amplified, but I've never really done a lot of research on it.
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Jun 3, 2012 16:29
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I'm sure all the 60+, 70+, and 80+ year olds on (or formerly on) the Politboro won't support any policies that eliminate their own existence.
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Jun 4, 2012 01:49
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A greater percentage of Chinese women work than in Canada, the US, even Sweden (?!) and many other countries: http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SL.TLF.CACT.FE.ZS?order=wbapi_data_value_2010+wbapi_data_value+wbapi_data_value-last&sort=asc Of course, just working does not guarantee a more equal status in society, but having access to social contacts outside of the home, earning one's own income, having a lower number of children and thus spending less time on unpaid labor (rearing children) all tend to improve the health, wealth and standard of living for women. Half of female self made billionaires are Chinese, Chinese are only 25% of the world's population: http://www.forbes.com/2010/03/22/billionaire-women-entrepreneur-china-richest.html Of course I didn't research into this too closely because billionaires are outliers to begin with and it includes Hong Konger[s] too IIRC...(edit: it only includes women who made their fortunes in mainland China) but it certainly seemed to rile a bunch of posters up. The Economist is fond of writing on this topic, I've read at least 2 articles about it and neither of them are this one I found with some quick googling: http://www.economist.com/node/21539931 Oh, and Chinese women hold a higher % of parliament seats than in other culturally Confucian countries --and even the US for that matter-- but I am kind of skeptical about the power of the People's Congress anyway. It's debatable whether the one child policy is a good thing or a bad thing, but it is a very interesting issue. e; Upon rereading the articles I really wish people would stop quoting Mao Zedong he was not exactly a paradigm of women's rights V I would love to but I'm not an expert on this, I am really more interested in current affairs. I know he had a ton of different wives and the last/most famous, Jiang Qing (Madame Mao) was vilified after Mao's death, but I always thought that was his fault somehow, but this is not being corroborated by my history books. The recent Bo Xilai case reminds me of this too-- of course it's hard to discern what really happened but his wife, Gu Kailai seems to have taken the fall in a major way for the British businessman's murder. There's also some choice quotes by Mao that definitely run counter to the "half the sky" one ("What we have in excess is women, so if you want we can give you a few ten thousand..."). Probably much like everything else about Mao or any other major historical figure, it is highly debatable whether or not he actually wanted to improve women's conditions or just wanted more easily manipulated pawns for the revolution or something else. The Marriage Law, getting rid of foot-binding and some other things were great. hitension fucked around with this message at 03:23 on Jun 4, 2012 |
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Jun 4, 2012 02:29
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hitension posted:e; Upon rereading the articles I really wish people would stop quoting Mao Zedong he was not exactly a paradigm of women's rights
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Jun 4, 2012 02:50
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hitension posted:Oh, and Chinese women hold a higher % of parliament seats than in other culturally Confucian countries --and even the US for that matter-- but I am kind of skeptical about the power of the People's Congress anyway. They have a quota for women in the NPC so it doesn't really prove anything beyond the feminism of the writers of the constitution. And the NPC has no real power. When was the last time they failed to pass a proposed law? Oh that's right, never.
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Jun 4, 2012 04:07
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The point that quotas exist (they exist at other levels too, like the village committees), even for whatever stupid reason, still means that it's actually on the table as an issue. I can't stress enough that I'm just comparing China to countries like Japan or Korea, not Sweden. Actually maybe Confucian societies is the wrong metric, what about comparing developing countries? India has quotas too, how does it work out for them?
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Jun 4, 2012 04:21
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All the communist countries moved women into the workforce because more workers = more tanks/Kalashnikovs/GDP to bury the Capitalist west. They didn't do it because they liked women. The actual lives of women in these countries are all still terrible even if they got rid of foot binding or burqas or whatever.
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Jun 4, 2012 05:44
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Throatwarbler posted:All the communist countries moved women into the workforce because more workers = more tanks/Kalashnikovs/GDP to bury the Capitalist west. They didn't do it because they liked women. The actual lives of women in these countries are all still terrible even if they got rid of foot binding or burqas or whatever. Perhaps, but it's still progress. Like anything, this sort of change takes time and is highly relative.
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Jun 4, 2012 06:15
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Throatwarbler posted:All the communist countries moved women into the workforce because more workers = more tanks/Kalashnikovs/GDP to bury the Communist North. Fixed for China. Even nowadays any Chinese person I've ever talked to still has a more negative view of Russians than any 'Westerners' (unless you include the Japanese of course!), which I don't think people in the west itself realise because China and Russia are security council bros. SharpyShuffle fucked around with this message at 07:55 on Jun 4, 2012 |
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Jun 4, 2012 07:52
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Deceitful Penguin posted:Could you elaborate on this? The Marriage Law, at least, was a good thing I thought. I remember Mao stating that "women hold up half the sky." Although I found this amusing: Papers reveal Mao's view of women
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Jun 4, 2012 07:55
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Ronald Spiers posted:I remember Mao stating that "women hold up half the sky." That's not nearly as hilarious as the actual transcripts: Chairman Mao: The trade between our two countries at present is very pitiful. It is gradually increasing. You know China is a very poor country. We don’t have much. What we have in excess is women. (Laughter) Dr. Kissinger: There are no quotas for those or tariffs. Chairman Mao: So if you want them we can give a few of those to you, some tens of thousands. (Laughter) Prime Minister Chou: Of course, on a voluntary basis. Chairmain Mao: Let them go to your place. They will create disasters. That way you can lessen our burdens. (Laughter) [...] Chairman Mao: Do you want our Chinese women? We can give you ten million. (Laughter, particularly among the women.) Dr. Kissinger: The Chairman is improving his offer. Chairman Mao: By doing so we can let them flood your country with disaster and therefore impair your interests. In our country we have too many women, and they have a way of doing things. They give birth to children and our children are too many. (Laughter) Dr. Kissinger: It is such a novel proposition, we will have to study it. Chairman Mao: You can set up a committee to study the issue. That is how your visit to China is settling the population question. (Laughter) Dr. Kissinger: We will study utilization and allocation. Chairman Mao: If we ask them to go I think they would be willing. Prime Minister Chou: Not necessarily. Chairman Mao: That’s because of their feudal ideas, big nation chauvinism. Dr. Kissinger: We are certainly willing to receive them. [...] Mao: You know, the Chinese have a scheme to harm the United States, that is, to send ten million women to the United States and impair its interests by increasing its population. Kissinger: The chairman has fixed the idea so much in my mind that I’ll certainly use it at my next press conference. (Laughter)
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Jun 4, 2012 11:09
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eSports Chaebol posted:That's not nearly as hilarious as the actual transcripts: Typical old man humour. You sunk my battleship.
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Jun 4, 2012 11:16
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To be fair the women probably would have gone to the states with very few questions asked.
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Jun 4, 2012 12:55
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Enh. Any discussion regard the role of women in the Chinese revolution needs to include the figure of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiang_Qing. This is probably more true: quote:All the I really don't think it's altogether fair to be exceptionalist here. Historically, there's a pretty clear model about how economic patriarchy is broken, and in the West it's basically entirely a matter of the Second World War. It's inevitably the case that the first moves by the government towards gender equality are driven by the realist need for greater manpower. Real reform in attitudes come later, and in many places still have not come. To their credit, communist countries tend to include the equality motif in their propaganda more readily, and I think that myths do slowly become reality in the political sphere. It does seem like progress has stalled, but then again major economic change in China is still recent. On the global gender gap ranking http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_GenderGap_Report_2011.pdf China is in the middle of the pack. Worse than France and Israel, better than Italy and Japan. Russia ranks better than France. All are a ways below the UK and the US. China's score is mostly dragged down by the 'health and survival' section, which involves life expectancy ratio, and sex ratio at birth (which China obviously does terrible in). In terms of Economic Participation and Opportunity, China is at roughly an European standard. Fangz fucked around with this message at 13:38 on Jun 4, 2012 |
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Jun 4, 2012 13:14
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Arglebargle III posted:They have a quota for women in the NPC so it doesn't really prove anything beyond the feminism of the writers of the constitution. And the NPC has no real power. When was the last time they failed to pass a proposed law? Oh that's right, never. The stuff that doesn't get passed, you basically never hear about. It's more or less all behind the scenes as to the debates that go on and the concessions that are made. Stuff can get railroaded through, but doing it is basically something that's never done.
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Jun 4, 2012 13:21
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Pro-PRC Laowai posted:The stuff that doesn't get passed, you basically never hear about. It's more or less all behind the scenes as to the debates that go on and the concessions that are made. Stuff can get railroaded through, but doing it is basically something that's never done. It's beautiful,  And they say China isn't ready for democracy. (Also, congrats on the new title. They sure do hate it when you don't toelick the current world imperialist, na?) Fangz posted:Enh. Any discussion regard the role of women in the Chinese revolution needs to include the figure of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiang_Qing.
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Jun 4, 2012 20:32
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SharpyShuffle posted:Fixed for China. Even nowadays any Chinese person I've ever talked to still has a more negative view of Russians than any 'Westerners' (unless you include the Japanese of course!), which I don't think people in the west itself realise because China and Russia are security council bros. Could you elaborate on this? I don't understand why the Chinese would have a particularly negative view of Russians given their present relationship. Are they still bitter about the withdrawal of aid and the border skirmishes in the 1960s? Or is it that they set a poor example by allowing their Communist regime to crumble? The two countries have had joint military exercises in recent years, not to mention that China depends on Russia for petroleum, raw materials and at least some military technology, so it doesn't seem like their official relationship can be that bad.
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Jun 4, 2012 21:28
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Deceitful Penguin posted:It's beautiful, Wu Yi (吴仪)? Then again, name some prominent female politicians in any country that's not Finland or Germany(and even those countries have more men than women in parliament)
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Jun 4, 2012 22:14
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Kopijeger posted:Could you elaborate on this? I don't understand why the Chinese would have a particularly negative view of Russians given their present relationship. Have you known many Russian expats? It's not hard to form a negative view about them. I know it's a stereotype but like most stereotypes it's merely incomplete rather than wrong. I've known a lot of nice Russian expats (all women) and a lot of bigoted, aggressive jerks (all men) and the one tends to leave more of an impression than the other.
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Jun 5, 2012 03:26
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Kopijeger posted:Could you elaborate on this? I don't understand why the Chinese would have a particularly negative view of Russians given their present relationship. Are they still bitter about the withdrawal of aid and the border skirmishes in the 1960s? Or is it that they set a poor example by allowing their Communist regime to crumble? The two countries have had joint military exercises in recent years, not to mention that China depends on Russia for petroleum, raw materials and at least some military technology, so it doesn't seem like their official relationship can be that bad. Stalin never trusted the Chinese "redneck communist". He gave more aid to the KMD than the Chinese Communist party. Even after Japanese surrender (which is the most critical moment between the CCP/KMD civil war) Stalin continued to cooperate with KMD in Manchuria instead of CCP. Communist China never had good relationship with Soviet, except the brief period in the 50s when China got all the technology aids from the Russians. After that it was northern border low level territory conflict in the 60s; and then another proxy war thru Vietnam. Most recently there was a Chinese fisher boat getting shelled near a Russian harbor. whatever7 fucked around with this message at 07:03 on Jun 5, 2012 |
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Jun 5, 2012 07:00
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whatever7 posted:Stalin never trusted the Chinese "redneck communist". This is a bit funny, since he was referred to by the rest of the Old Guard Bolsheviks as being "The Georgian" and was considered a bit of a country bumpkin himself by the rest of the Party in the early post-revolution days. With how often he worked against other communist movements outside of the old Russian Empire holdings, I'm beginning to think that the insane theory that Stalin was a Tsarist spy that outlasted his government may have had some merit. (Of course, "Socialism in One Country" equally explains Stalin's foreign policy in a much more believable manner.)
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Jun 5, 2012 07:19
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Arglebargle III posted:Have you known many Russian expats? It's not hard to form a negative view about them. I know it's a stereotype but like most stereotypes it's merely incomplete rather than wrong. I've known a lot of nice Russian expats (all women) and a lot of bigoted, aggressive jerks (all men) and the one tends to leave more of an impression than the other. Funny, the ones I have personally encountered all seemed like decent people except one woman. I somehow doubt most Chinese with negative opinions of Russians have formed them on the basis of personal experiences. But speaking of proxy wars, what views does a typical Chinese person have of Vietnam?
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Jun 5, 2012 10:53
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Kopijeger posted:But speaking of proxy wars, what views does a typical Chinese person have of Vietnam?
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Jun 5, 2012 11:05
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hitension posted:Wu Yi (吴仪)? Jóhanna Sigurðardóttir. Ingibjörg Sólrún prior to the collab scandal.  whatever7 posted:Stalin never trusted the Chinese "redneck communist". He gave more aid to the KMD than the Chinese Communist party. Even after Japanese surrender (which is the most critical moment between the CCP/KMD civil war) Stalin continued to cooperate with KMD in Manchuria instead of CCP.
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Jun 5, 2012 17:21
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hitension posted:Wu Yi (吴仪)? PM of Australia?
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Jun 5, 2012 17:40
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Deceitful Penguin posted:Jóhanna Sigurðardóttir. Ingibjörg Sólrún prior to the collab scandal. Pragmatically though: the CCP in the 1930s and 1940s were thought of and often were bandits hiding out in the mountains of Yan'an, while the KMT was recognized to be the legitimate government of China. He was backing the horse that looked to be winning.
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Jun 5, 2012 17:51
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The Chinese-US-Russian relation was long and complex, and I don't think any forum post is going to cover it. It's basically a matter of a variety of different aspects. 1. The ideological aspect. The Chinese, initially, stressed a form of communism focused on the rural areas, whereas the Russians focused on urban socialism. So, while the Russians let the rural areas starve as grain was appropriated for the cities, the Chinese sent out urban elites into the countryside for 're-education'. Both wanted ownership of the global communism 'brand'. The Chinese, for their part, persistently criticised the Russians for being too cautious and defensive in promoting global revolution, while the Russians derided the Chinese as unstable fanatics. It's not clear whether each side actually believed this, or whether it provided just an easy target for rhetoric. 2. The realpolitik aspect. The Russians were totally paranoid about having a potentially hostile neighbour, while the Chinese had both a staunch belief in their national mythos of greatness being repressed by foreign powers, and rememberance of past Russian hostility that went perhaps to the brink of nuclear war. The Chinese saw Soviet influence in Vietnam and elsewhere as an attempt to create facts on the ground whereby the Chinese would to surrounded and East Asia turned into what had happened with Eastern Europe. America in turn encouraged the Sino-Soviet split, since it weakened the enemy in the cold war. 3. The economy. Well, not much needs to be said about that. Even these days, though Russia and China have broadly speaking an alliance as part of a sort of informal Unamerican axis, most adults in China had grown up through decades that were dominated by Chinese-US cooperation against the Russians, and are well aware that continued good economic relations with the US is very important to Chinese welfare. While the Chinese and the Russians have come into agreement on some issues, they are in no way as interdependent at the Sino-American relationship. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China Compared to the trade done with the US and the EU, Chinese trade with Russia is just tiny.
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Jun 5, 2012 18:08
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Heaven is not pleased with China: China bars stock index web search after Tiananmen match
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Jun 6, 2012 05:13
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Modus Operandi posted:General Chinese stereotypes of the Vietnamese? Small in stature, cunning, duplicitous, and two faced when it comes to global relations. The positive stereotypes are hard workers, upcoming regional SEA state, and they make good wives. That's remarkably close to how Americans see the Chinese/Asians in general. Interesting.
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Jun 6, 2012 05:33
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computer parts posted:That's remarkably close to how Americans see the Chinese/Asians in general. Interesting. I think both views have roots in imperialism. Vietnam was China's vassal state/colony for a short while before they broke away in a bloody war.
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Jun 6, 2012 07:39
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hitension posted:A greater percentage of Chinese women work than in Canada, the US, even Sweden (?!) and many other countries: Don't be tricked by the figures. As a Chinese woman myself, I am glad to tell you some undoubted truth beneath the list of statistics. The only explanation to a greater percentage of Chinese women work is that they HAVE TO. Unlike many western countries where women can choose whether or not to work, its mostly a must in China. Under most situations, the income of one person is not enough to support the whole family. If you ask the Chinese women what would you rather be, a housewife or a a working mother? More women would say a housewife. Being a housewife in china means that her husband is able to earn enough money to support the family, correspondingly a higher social status. As a housewife, the woman only need to shop, cook, wash，have fun with the other housewives, help the husband and educate the children(洗衣做饭，相夫教子), rather than dealing with all these chaos after a whole day's work. Working women in China don't see work an access to social contacts outside of the home, earning one's own income, spending less time on unpaid labor. On the contrary, its an extra burden. Woman being a housewife is a better thing for the family even from Chinese men's perspective. if you ask Chinese men: If the family can gain a good financial situation by your own income, you prefer a staying at home wife or a working one? Most would tell you a housewife. yes, they will. You see, chinese women have never thought about the work or not work question, of course I will work, what am I going to eat if I don't work(maybe a bit exaggerated). If only I have had a good husband so that I don't need work! Like the estate market, the percentage of working chinese women is abnormally high. If the economy situation in china were better, this figure would not have been so high, it will be close to the other Confucius countries. If the economy went even better in the future, woman would begin to realize, like what more western is realizing, that I need to work, I chose to work so that I can make my own money, have some social contact with others. The thought that Chinese women are enjoying higher social status is a bit naive. Given no other choices, the % becomes meaningless. Being able to choose work or not work is the real thing that matters.
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Jun 6, 2012 09:00
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It's good to hear a native Chinese perspective in this thread, I get the feeling that most of us are Americans. I would like to point out that, in the U.S. and in most of the Western world, women below the highest class level also have to work to support their families. Because of the women's rights movement this has been portrayed in a positive light, but the reality is that American wages have been falling steadily for 30 years and men are no longer able to support a family on one income. Most women in America and the West also have to work, even if they want to be housewives. I agree with you that the labor participation rate is not a good indicator of women's social status. Assuming that you know what people want is always a bad place to start an argument.
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Jun 6, 2012 09:50
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Quota itself is of the most sexist phenomena. This is whats going on in the men's mind: Few women are interested in the politics or running the country and they are not be able to get seats by themselves, but we do need some women to make the congress looks bit more colorful. Let's give them quota, only for decoration, they are harmless and mute anyway. another sexist phenomenon: If a woman's name were to appear in any government paper, her gender must be indicated. It goes like this 李小花（女）. Aren't they human? Are they cats? The brackets make the name quite absurd. I really hate this, what on earth makes female politicians(officials actually) so special that the names have to be followed by brackets indicating their gender?
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Jun 6, 2012 10:45
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Fox...and...Soup posted:Quota itself is of the most sexist phenomena. Ugh. This is why Chinese immigrants to western countries all end up being lovely conservatives. First of all maybe you need to have more realistic expectations about how meritocratic the NPC is? Seeing as how it's a completely self perpetuating bureaucracy and all. Quotas and affirmative action are needed and used in progressive western countries where companies and governments actually have some modicum of being open to women and minorities based on merit.
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Jun 6, 2012 11:13
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eSports Chaebol posted:Chairman Mao: By doing so we can let them flood your country with disaster and therefore impair your interests. In our country we have too many women, and they have a way of doing things. They give birth to children and our children are too many. (Laughter) Are these the actual transcripts? Whether nor not the transcripts are real, the topic is about population rather than women(Its Chinese people's different way of talking). and I don't think Mao was kidding with Kissinger about the population problem. During the 1950s, Ma Yinchu http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_Yinchu presented his New Population Theory and warned that further population growth at such high rates would be detrimental to China's development. Therefore, he advocated government control of fertility. Of course, Mao didn't like his talk. His theory was seen an evil scheme to discredit the superiority of socialism, and show contempt for the people. When Kissinger visited China(1971), I think Mao have realized Ma's theory was very right and he had made a mistake by letting the population go. As the large population was retarding the development, impairing its interests. Mao is an arrogant man, he wont admit his mistake, but deep inside Mao must feel sorry for this. Ma is the grandfather of "One Child Policy".
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Jun 6, 2012 14:22
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Fox...and...Soup posted:Unlike many western countries where women can choose whether or not to work I remember a Chinese guy whining to me about how Chinese weddings were so expensive, and how he thought an American wedding must be super cheap. That was a laugh! "What women want" in any society is ridiculously varied and almost impossible to pin down (what do men want, for that matter? what do humans want?) and I think we need some statistics to back up our claims. Unfortunately, it's hard to find quantitative statistics about peoples' opinions, so we just get your "women just want to stay at home washing clothes" anecdote vs. my anecdotes of Chinese women telling me if they're NOT working it's 没有意义. Anecdotally, the only people I've ever met who told me their life dream was to be a "wife" were Japanese women, but I've met some Japanese women who want to be diplomats and doctors too. It's really hard to generalize. Probably it's different for different places as well-- in China I end up talking to university and grad students and young professionals in major cities, who certainly don't represent the whole country. Oh, I'm familiar with the bracket thing, but don't they do that for all genders and races? I like to joke how the US would be if we had President, Barack Obama (Male, African-American) Vice President, Joe Biden (Male, White) Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton (Female, White) Looks weird and unnecessary to include this extra information, right? But China does it. and so on. All it does is draw attention to how many (Male, Han) there are in China. I even see it after professor's names sometimes.  Affirmative action in Chinese colleges is interesting too.. hitension fucked around with this message at 15:06 on Jun 6, 2012 |
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Jun 6, 2012 14:57
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