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e: dabble poste
keet fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Jun 21, 2012 |
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Jun 21, 2012 01:09
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Elentor mentioned the Yuffie date so I figure it's fair game to discuss. Going to be be nice. Yuffie has all the expected problems of a easily-missable optional character with exactly one plot twist and arc all in the same area and need to put in some effort to use any useful battle gimmick. She is also of the breed of character who eventually evolves into characters like Selphie or especially Rikku. I have always found Square's unoffical 'every ff game must have 3 women in it' thing to help balance out the shounen sausage fest that the games can get, but you don't really miss anything if you pass Yuffie by, besides a few dialogues during cut scenes that are kind of interesting. She is not wacky enough to replace Cait Sith, and not ambivalent enough to replace way more ornery characters. Thus Optional Characters have to make a way more frontloaded impression on the player. YOu already spot the danger. Yuffie is eye cancer. She looks like a little girl who got into her mom's closet for dressup, but replace mom with ninja. Not only does the gear look mismatched and slightly not her size, its just he overal feel of looking like Ninja bling. You're supposed to get the implied immaturity and lacking the sense of a real issue but again, her arc is really too short to make an impression. I suppose she is the ninja equivalent of a teenage punk (seriously, imagine her outfit was entirely black and pink for a moment) which I guess does fit her attitude. There's also a more obvious drift into Tomboy here, but it's more connected to a lack of maturity. Its sort of a drift into cute which a lot of people don't really feel comfortable about.I am not culturally aware enough to guess what any of the individual stuff she is wearing is (so there might be a shitload of cultural stuff I'm noticing but whatever) so don't ask. The cultural equivalent of a camgirl on NinjaChan just doesn't speak to me as a too-old-dude at this point. Yuffie is an odd duck in that I find her a much better character in the expanded universe, and partly attribute that to not really being 'important' enough to be tied down to a concept. She also has a shitload of outfits across the board. Serious, if you told me Yuffie was someone's OC character put into this RPG I wouldn't doubt you.  Yuffie's outfits basically went into the direction of "Jesus Christ, simplify this", but all of them are actually pretty good, but probably don't exactly fit in the original FF7 costume sorta-loud gallery. The one "problem"? They ironically look too much like normal outfits at this point. Even the NextGenGaming BROWN effect produces a mostly nice outfit, and a lot of the cruft has been sliced away. You may notice two of the more colorful outfits look a hell of a lot like Rikku, which IMHO certianly look nice but show a lack of confidence in the character design. IIRC, Yuffie was called in as a last minute replacement for Rikku in Kingdom Hearts just to avoid name confusion, which was the start of more normal outfits. keet fucked around with this message at 02:05 on Jun 21, 2012 |
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Jun 21, 2012 02:02
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penguinmambo posted:Character design analyses I'm loving these analyses  And you've just made me realise that Yuffie is the only party character to not be wearing her Advent Children clothes in Dirge of Cerberus. And yeah, they just reused Rikku's planned design for Yuffie.  When Rikku does appear in the sequel game (along with Yuna and Paine), they got around the problem of having two characters with the same name by just referring to themselves collectively as "The Gullwings". Pesky Splinter fucked around with this message at 02:27 on Jun 21, 2012 |
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Jun 21, 2012 02:22
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J. Alfred Prufrock posted:FF7 actually does this, though, which is part of what makes Cait Sith's design so weird: he's not actually a very comedic character. Maybe that's it-Cait Sith is supposed to be unsettling, in the way that an ever-present mascot starts to have Orwellian undertones. In this case, the problem is that Cait Sith isn't unsettling enough.
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Jun 21, 2012 02:26
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 Cid's outfit is downright boring. This is intentional.  Those who have gone further know his appearance is the least loud thing about him. IMHO Cid mostly fills the rule Sazh does in FF13. He is the "normal" character who has a sideeye to the dumber rpg poo poo you get up to. Cid is a pilot, and thus he doesn't look flashy at all. Nothing about him is theatrical, except maybe when it comes to piloting.Anyway, Like Cait Sith, Cid has a "legacy" so you may get a sense Square can put slightly less effort into his design because the audience knows what to expect. Cids in FFs aren't usually playable and often associated with mechanics and airships. This isn't a hard goal; he just has to look like he fits the "modern" setting, circa WorldWar. Cid himself barely looks above a well rendered NPC and he wears a totally normal outfit. The game is very careful never to show you another NPC in this very normal outfit though, so it LOOKS like its unique. (FF10 has a dumb version of this premise.) Still there are a few noticable things. One is the pack of cigs. Not cigars, thats classy or oldtime charming. Cigs. Cid is exactly the kind of guy who needs to smoke to relax. Remmeber the kind of censorship issues games used to have, and calibrate the suggested level of badass from that. Cid also has some face bandages and hasn't shaved (hugely rugged by JRPG prettyboy standards). It's really telling that his low-def field model hair is white going to gray, not blonde. Ignoring gamemanual bullshit, I always pegged him as in his forties. He's old, but not in a 'daddy' way Barrett is.  At some point Square figured they need to remind you Cid is in a fantasy game so he has a spear. Again, they assumed you know what a Cid is, so they're assuming you know what a Dragoon is. I've never bought that it really fit Cid at all, despite my like for polearm weapons in games, but I can't imagine Cid fighting with anything except a shotgun or maybe a broken bottle. keet fucked around with this message at 03:20 on Jun 21, 2012 |
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Jun 21, 2012 02:43
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Valiantman posted:Everyone who wants to avoid spoilers for this game: don't touch TheDarkId's FFX LP with a ten-foot pole. Absolutely gigantic FFVII spoilers are being thrown around there. Yeah, I warned people about this earlier when he revealed the first spoiler. Luckily the spoiler that was revealed was the one I already knew because everyone knows it. But I think there are some new spoilers which I caught myself before reading too far, I think. Better be cautious when reading that thread.
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Jun 21, 2012 02:52
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Wait so Rikku came first? But FF7 came out first? I'm missing something here. 
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Jun 21, 2012 02:53
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Brainamp posted:Wait so Rikku came first? But FF7 came out first? I'm missing something here. There's a character in Kingdom Hearts named Riku. I think that's what they were referring to.
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Jun 21, 2012 03:00
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They are talking about the first Kingdom Hearts game. Rikku was supposed to appear in that game, but because of her name being too close to the love interest "Riku", they swapped her out for Yuffie. I hope this clears it up.
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Jun 21, 2012 03:01
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Brainamp posted:Wait so Rikku came first? But FF7 came out first? I'm missing something here. They wanted to use Rikku in Kingdom Hearts. Kingdom Hearts has a character named Riku, who is entirely different. They used Yuffie instead of two-k Rikku, instead of not having two characters in popular Squaresoft games whose names are pronounced Ree-Koo.
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Jun 21, 2012 03:03
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GrizzlyCow posted:They are talking about the first Kingdom Hearts game. Rikku was supposed to appear in that game, but because of her name being too close to the love interest "Riku", they swapped her out for Yuffie. I hope this clears it up.  Riku is the best friend, Kairi is the love interest.
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Jun 21, 2012 03:05
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Pesky Splinter posted:
Not from what I've seen in KH2 
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Jun 21, 2012 03:14
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Pesky Splinter posted:
I'm pretty sure that was the joke. And depending on who you ask, the entire subject might be debatable.
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Jun 21, 2012 03:15
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S-Alpha posted:Not from what I've seen in KH2 Well, I can't deny that:  "Oh Riku, I've missed you so much!" "Oh...hi Kairi...well...glad to see you...I guess...anyways..." "Oh Riku! *slobber slobber*"
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Jun 21, 2012 03:18
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Pesky Splinter posted:Well, I can't deny that: Looks like someone is obsessed with creepy shipping instead of the awesome power of ~FRIENDSHIP~  Also if you like the subtle way they handle shipping (ugh) in FF7, the canonical treatment of that in KH is actually very good. Doesn't stop fans from projecting all kinds of stuff on it though. Spazzy-blond Rikku's name was originally pronounced "Ryuuku", so it's only been an issue for silly gaijin who can't pronounce things properly.  ...I think overanalyzing outfits in X2 or KH would result in sometime timecube level posts from me and needing to get belted down to hospital bed for a few hours. keet fucked around with this message at 03:31 on Jun 21, 2012 |
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Jun 21, 2012 03:26
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penguinmambo posted:I think overanalyzing outfits in X2 or KH would result in sometime timecube level posts from me and needing to get belted down to hospital bed for a few hours. Good thing this isn't either of those threads.
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Jun 21, 2012 03:27
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penguinmambo posted:...I think overanalyzing outfits in X2 or KH would result in sometime timecube level posts from me and needing to get belted down to hospital bed for a few hours. ... Goddamnit, now I want to see what you come up with.
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Jun 21, 2012 03:48
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Kithrixx posted:... Goddamnit, now I want to see what you come up with. There's no X2 thread running and the KH one is mostly dead atm. Maybe I'll do up something there later. I've got several major characters left to talk about but... well, one of them is not going to be positive. Elentor, have you picked up a handsome napping bloke yet?  I'm not seeing it mentioned in your trip to Cloud's hometown.
keet fucked around with this message at 04:12 on Jun 21, 2012 |
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Jun 21, 2012 04:09
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penguinmambo posted:Looks like someone is obsessed with creepy shipping instead of the awesome power of ~FRIENDSHIP~ Friendship Strange fans will always try to project variations of sex and romance on characters, even if said characters never interact with each other. Mostly it's them misunderstanding that subtext doesn't necessarily mean "Character x wants to bone character y". Or that there is such a thing as a platonic relationship, or that people can be around other people and just be friends, not some potential orgy waiting to happen. FFVII fans are the worst for that. And SE is the worst for encouraging that type of thinking. Take KH Cloud for instance, his whole plot in that game is that he's looking for someone. Now given that you see Aerith early on, you think "oh well, he's looking for her". Nope. Sephiroth. Always Sephiroth. And they carry that poo poo on in the sequel too. And Dissidia, and it's sequel. But at least they acknowledge it in Dissidia that they're basically playing to fan expectations at that stage. Pesky Splinter fucked around with this message at 04:25 on Jun 21, 2012 |
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Jun 21, 2012 04:12
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penguinmambo posted:There's no X2 thread running and the KH one is mostly dead atm. Maybe I'll do up something there later. Chapters 38 and 39 dude.
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Jun 21, 2012 04:16
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penguinmambo posted:Elentor, have you picked up a handsome napping bloke yet? Vinny's hanging around, yeah. I'm not sure Elentor's ever used him, but he's tagging along.
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Jun 21, 2012 04:22
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I actually looked up Vinny on google to figure out who you were talking about and then felt like an idiot edit: I would LOVE to see you over analyze the outfits in Kingdom Hearts. I thought it was really neat how they blended Square aesthetics with Disney aesthetics Macaluso fucked around with this message at 04:27 on Jun 21, 2012 |
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Jun 21, 2012 04:24
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Dauntasa posted:Vinny's hanging around, yeah. I'm not sure Elentor's ever used him, but he's tagging along. I've never used him because Lost Number gives 2000 EXP.
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Jun 21, 2012 04:28
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penguinmambo posted:Ignoring gamemanual bullshit, I always pegged him as in his forties. He's old, but not in a 'daddy' way Barrett is. Cid is one of those guys who was too old for this poo poo the day he was born.
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Jun 21, 2012 04:57
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Hi penguinmambo. This is Vincent from Nibelhelm Mansion and I was wondering if you could teach me how to be as awesome as you. I am a vampire and I knew it was a bad sign that I am having a hard time finding any "ironically funny" Vincent fanart for this entry. (If you find an "old guard" fan, be prepared for an unusual Cid/Vincent fandom! )Here's the thing. I try to be logical in my approach to how a character looks designed, even if it's not specifically my flavor of fan. His appearance is basically dull as poo poo to me, and exactly the kind of grimdark 13-year-old-boy 1990s style we'd later regret. Vincent by way of Hellsing seems cliche and maybe it is. However, remember that depending on when you get him you've seen people who are literally turned into monsters, both ugly and pretty, during the course of the plot. So the idea that a person LIKE Vincent could exist in the FF7 universe is NOT inherently dumb. It's the kind of visual reference joke you expect in old Final fantasies (the joke is VAMPIRE!  but in a playful way dont take the metaphor too serious what kind of idiot would do that). Thing is, this makes what you can infer about his character incredibly simple. He's a loner with some weird powers and is trying to atone.If you are at all familiar with comics, movies, etc., you can predict exactly how a character being popular like Vincent apparently would be handled by later writers. This is not to poo poo on Vinnie the character, btw. Remember I try to make a distinction between the USE of a character and the personality of a character. Vinnie is useful if you need to talk about Shinra stuff or if you want to spin off a story about the Shinra/TURKs side of things. We forget that's largely moot now with how popular they've gotten, but the idea of using Vincent as a *central* character to tell a story is not really a job for him. It contributes a shitload of the view the extended universe being very 'fanficky'. Dirge is usually cited as one of the first really heavy Nomuraism (odd retcons, overblown character designs that still somehow borrow too much from obvious sources. ie., the time when blue eyes and zippers stopped being the most annoying thing) filled games, with the added problem it's not a goofy colorful thing like Kingdom Hearts.  Actually, how about you just drape that red cape stuff on a tatteredsuit version of this swank lookin' guy? I'd love play him(?). Anyway, the main strength of original Vincent's outfit is it Suggests. He's a mysterious character, like Red (this is acknowledged). Explaining this mystery and substituting grimdark imagery is not a decent trade off and taking it at frank completely serious face value is worse. He's got a cloak and mask and really tightly hitched pants. All a sense of being buckled down; this is actually the one time shitloads of literal buckles works really well, especially with his quiet attitude. It also compliments his Berserker class deal during fights. He's makes a serious effort to 'hold back'. It's not a huge epic entry I'll grant you, but as an optional character it could be worse. Oh, also he looks like Sephiroth. Seriously. Long cloak, spooky overall look, associated with Shinra. There's also the first "cutscene" you get when you talk to him, which is openended enough I immediately read it as something else. This is not a spoiler so much as than a dumb personal fantheory about that cutscene (that has since been disproven by EU canon) so feel free to skip to the end. FANIDEA: SEPHIROTH IS VINCENT'S SON. Vinnie and Luc hook up. Luc breaks it off for professional reasons. Luc hangs with Hojo for unexplained reasons (so far Hojo has been nothing but an rear end during gameplay so who knows.) Cut later, Luc is pregnant. My Take was Vinnie accidently got Luc pregnant, and she had to break it off cause of the professional scandal it might have caused (I dont know what, but shut its DRAMA~). It also makes Luc look slightly less of a dumb emotional cliche, which she seems to be in Dirge. Sure she's a lady scientist, but the character smacks of a lot of outdated feminity tropes I don't like when this entire concept got an offical explination. Short answer: MYTHBUSTED by Square. Feh. I'm gonna break form and toss a little qoute here from wikiland. "His (Vincent's) voice actor, Shougo Suzuki, noted him to be similar to Cloud, only more mature, which influenced his character and voice work. Vincent was originally intended to appear in Kingdom Hearts with Cloud, but it was decided to remove him due their similar brooding personalities and aspects of his design were worked into Cloud's new design for the series." Aside from the hilarious result of working on Vincent because he is a more mature character, am I very  about the development conspiracy that changes done to Cloud later may have been mostly done because had been done and seen successful on Vincent.Other tangental costume trivia. Even for it's time, and even for Final Fantasy, a ridiculous amount of Vincent cosplay is done by women.  I only mention this because as a kid I didn't get or use Vincent until replays ages after, and just renamed him V (for vampire!). My cousin (who knew poo poo about video games) saw him in battle and thought he was a woman. It sounds like a typical LOL JRPG joke now, but while being perhaps a little TOO progressive given Vinnie's backstory, it'd make for a pretty awesome visual difference between Tifa and Aeris.
keet fucked around with this message at 08:26 on Jun 21, 2012 |
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Jun 21, 2012 05:33
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penguinmambo posted:Vincent Stuff That spoiler actually contains a huge spoiler for the game. The sentence right after "DRAMA~)", which you might want to mention. I love your things, though, but that's a bit important and shouldn't be there. Edit: Thanks for fixing it. Man with Hat fucked around with this message at 14:21 on Jun 21, 2012 |
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Jun 21, 2012 07:53
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Is it me or is the first picture Count Duckula?
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Jun 21, 2012 13:24
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mfcrocker posted:Is it me or is the first picture Count Duckula? Yes...with a stake through his heart... 
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Jun 21, 2012 13:55
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All I know is that I've always hated Vincent. I hated his attitude, his design, his 'role' in the story, and I absolutely hated his Limits. Any Limit that takes away your control of a character is, to me, a bad, bad thing. (This is part of why I didn't like Gau, Umaro, or Mog in FF6, too.)
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Jun 21, 2012 14:29
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"Oh this new character is neat, let me put him in my party. Oh look at this weird scorpion spider boss thing, let's put Vincent to the test. Oh neat he transformed into some hellbeast with his limit! Wait stop vincent what are you doing no, fire spells heal him. No vincent stop! NOOOOOO"
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Jun 21, 2012 14:33
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Vincent is a character you pretty much only use for his gimmick. Unfortunately his gimmick involves taking away your attack command during fights if you don't want to use it. The developers seemed to realize this, giving him a gun that gives 100% hit deathblows and a high magic stat to compensate. Design wise It seemed like Vincent and Cid should have switched weapons; Cid would have worked better with a pistol. Vincent, the character with a shiny claw gauntlet and turns into a violent brute beserker, seems out of place just standing at a distance using small guns compared to his limits.
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Jun 21, 2012 15:12
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But then how could he have starred in an amazing shooter? drat, typing that made me imagine a spinoff starting Cid, which would have been so much more amazing.
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Jun 21, 2012 16:57
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Rushputin posted:But then how could he have starred in an amazing shooter? It's appropriate because the only good bits of dirge of cerberus were the bits that happened to include cid in them anyway.
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Jun 21, 2012 18:55
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 It's probably just me, but the first thing I noticed is Aeris has the same bangs as Sephiroth. In fact, if you made her dress a open jacket, she'd look a LOT like him. Aeris's actual dress is nothing to write home about; most people note the obvious pink=flower. But while Tifa is mostly round curves (so to speak), Aeris's dresslines are *really* straight. Not only does this sorta take away from the fact her proportions are really not small, I always thought it made her look MUCH taller than the in game models implied. "Willowy" as in the literal tall slim, plant. It would have been pretty funny if she was actually a little taller than Cloud, but Aeris is still ruled by the "moe~" design of Staff Chicks a bit. People rag on the boots and the jacket, but Tifa and Cloud have big boots too, and it establishes a nice "look" inasmuch as suggesting a kind of Midgar fashion of clunky footwear. (This is my only major beef with Kingdom Hearts art, where the Nomura look bothers me because it's applied to so many disparate, and sometimes inappropriate, characters instead of just Sora and his crew to show their goofy kids with expectedly silly colorful fashions.) I guess they'd also be good gardening boots. FLowers are nice and all, but Aeris seems to the type to also keep a vegetable garden for personal use and maybe to distribute to poor folks (though not chase kids with a pitchfork who keep trying to steal her carrots idk). Gardening is not very "pretty" like flower growing is I guess. Although Cloud crashing into a scramble of pumpkins probably would have been more funny. Just like how the boots also give a slightly "rough" edge suggesting Aeris is tougher than she looks, so does her rough looking jacket. People rag that it doesn't match but there's a reason for it. This game has already indicated red means I also think the entire outfit is shades of pink and red because its the compliment to green, basically the color of magic for this game. I don't know if there's an significance to Aeris being mostly pink and Cloud being mostly blue.Aeris's staff is kinda boring and more a requist gimmick of the Staff Chick with Healinz Magick. I am genuinely annoyed there wasn't one you could use that actually looked like a garden implement.  A lot of the newer outfits she has tend to look like softer colors and fabrics and non-clunky footwear, and I'm not sure how I feel about it. Red-and-pink Aeris looks more like someone who tries for a cheerful look despite being in a lovely place, the newer outfits, just feel like fashion choices. Newer versions broadly keep the color scheme but mess with the dress a lot but add a lot of frilliness. This would seem KIND of boring, until I realize Aeris is still probably one of the most famous female characters in the series with a specifically "Western" Look (Versus kimono-wearing Yuna) and that's notable enough for a (Japanese) Square fan to find distinctive rather than the specifics to her costume. keet fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Jun 21, 2012 |
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Jun 21, 2012 20:19
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You can't fight in platform heel flip-flops, dumbass How do you even think this deeply about the way a character looks? Am I just retarded for not seeing these things? I especially liked the part about Cloud being "Star Wars dirty." I never really consciously realized it but that's exactly how most of the game and especially Midgar feels; probably smells like gasoline and axle grease or something. Come to think of it, Shinra HQ is pretty much the first place you visit in the game that isn't grimy or trashy or cluttered; it's sterile and polished, like a hospital (or the Death Star). I guess that's part of why it's so loving creepy when Sephiroth shows up and starts swinging a bloody mop around just ahead of you. Saucy! fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Jun 21, 2012 |
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Jun 21, 2012 20:45
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I do remember that back when I first saw the character designs for VII, Aeris was the one whose design was the most interesting to me. The boots are an interesting contrast to what you'd expect from the rest of the character design, and a nod to actual practicality that would disappear from Nomura's repertoire before long. These are characters who could go travelling and not tear their ruffles and scarves on every branch or wear their shoes out walking between towns. And the dress is really one of the things that drives home that this isn't your normal fantasy setting, because people are actually wearing normal, contemporary pieces of clothing and not flamboyant aristocratic renaissance garb. Heck, I've even seen jackets that are pretty close in cut/length to hers being worn by women who aren't cosplaying.
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Jun 21, 2012 20:49
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Paracelsus posted:I do remember that back when I first saw the character designs for VII, Aeris was the one whose design was the most interesting to me. The boots are an interesting contrast to what you'd expect from the rest of the character design, and a nod to actual practicality that would disappear from Nomura's repertoire before long. These are characters who could go travelling and not tear their ruffles and scarves on every branch or wear their shoes out walking between towns. Same with Tifa. She's obviously supposed to be a monk, but if they went with kungfu garb it'd be too much like the old final fantasies. So the decision there is "when would a modern woman be punching the poo poo out of things? In a gym I guess." SO they're gym clothes. Cid is a dragoon but nothing in that standard outfit would make sense now so you have "well a pilot fucks around in the air so". To be honest, in most modern FFs the main problem with impractical outfits, as in they'd be literally hard to wear, is usually like one or two characters where it's clear the artist wouldn't budge (Lulu) or an obsession with working sexy outfit (Fran). I don't really count X2 because those are literally magic outfits. Also am I the only nerd who enforced a job system on this game thru use of appropriate gear and materia? It adds a neat little level of challenge.
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Jun 21, 2012 21:05
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Saucy! posted:How do you even think this deeply about the way a character looks? Am I just retarded for not seeing these things? I can't speak for him, but I took art direction classes (lots of them), character design classes, design classes with a fashion teacher and history of fashion. Good storytelling can be pretty much summed up as "show don't tell" and character design when well done can be a huge part of it. I intended to do a similar analysis sometime but since penguinmambo started it, there's no need now. I'd add one or two things but for the most parts his analysis are spot-on. I just wish penguinmambo managed to do 10 posts without people complaining about spoilers.
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Jun 21, 2012 21:08
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Saucy! posted:How do you even think this deeply about the way a character looks? Am I just retarded for not seeing these things? Funny thing about character design that most people don't realize is that the design tells a story. Every element of the clothes or the character itself tells of that character's history or life. It's the same in real life. You see a person wearing long sleeves at all times, even in the summer, they've got something to hide, or you see large scars on a person's face or body, they've been through some tough poo poo.
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Jun 21, 2012 21:14
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penguinmambo posted:Also am I the only nerd who enforced a job system on this game thru use of appropriate gear and materia? I totally did this! The game is easy enough that you can build characters around a specific theme and get by just fine without "optimal" setups or whatever. Red XIII was my Blue Mage because he was technically a monster so he had enemy skill and some fire themed stuff, Barret was a "Knight" with Cover and Counter-attack, etc. and I'd always give Cloud stuff that other SOLDIERs in the game used like Ice2 and Confuse. Tifa got "Mug" materia because she beats the poo poo out of people.
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Jun 21, 2012 21:16
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