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Pesky Splinter posted:At the very least, there are plenty of interesting ideas in XIII, but they are told so badly, or pushed aside in favour of whatever other nonsense the writers wanted to shove down our throats. I couldn't help thinking they wrote the whole thing in summary and fed it to a robot to connect all the dots. Idea: "Hope is paired up with the guy he hates. They clash! It's tough, but they work out their differences in the end." Execution: Hope is with Lightning. Snow appears. Lightning goes away somewhere else. Snow redeems himself by accident. Tempo 119 fucked around with this message at 01:45 on Jul 12, 2012 |
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Jul 12, 2012 01:42
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Tempo 119 posted:I couldn't help thinking they wrote the whole thing in summary and fed it to a robot to connect all the dots. Game time spent for this single plot scene: 4 1/2 hours. And it wouldn't surprise me if they wrote ideas on scraps of paper, stuck them in a hat, and plotted the game based out of what scrap they pulled out. And then six months before release, someone went: "Wow this movie is gonna be great!" "Wait...I thought we were making a game?" "...Oh gently caress." Pesky Splinter fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Jul 12, 2012 |
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Jul 12, 2012 01:46
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Zombies' Downfall posted:I feel this is a difficult conclusion to draw given that, after having beaten 13 a second time just to watch the ending again, I'm still not sure what the last boss was supposed to be or what happened. I hesitate to call it a decent story because I don't even really understand what was going on for substantial chunks of it; I did like most of the characters though. It's pretty easy to figure out what the last boss is if you paid more attention to the story, but as for what happened afterward, that's better explained in XIII-2, and it's the reason XIII-2 exists plot-wise.
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Jul 12, 2012 01:55
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I mean I know I was killing Orphan but I couldn't explain what Orphan actually was if you asked me to
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Jul 12, 2012 02:01
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I thought it was less of a who and more of a why. Your party had no reason to do any of the things they did.
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Jul 12, 2012 02:05
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I just beat it and the question of what orphan was never bothered me (a sleeping falcie whose job was basically to be a giant battery) but the question of why the gently caress they didn't just walk away instead of doing the opposite of what they were going to do all game is baffling. Also that whole thing with ragnarok becoming a crystal spiral. If I adored XIII's gameplay, would I enjoy the sequel? I can tolerate a silly/bad story if the gameplay's fun.
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Jul 12, 2012 02:07
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Momomo posted:I thought it was less of a who and more of a why. Your party had no reason to do any of the things they did. Main problem, right there. "We can't be pawns of the fal'cie!" Your party then proceeds to play directly into their hands for the entire drat game. Francois Kofko posted:If I adored XIII's gameplay, would I enjoy the sequel? I can tolerate a silly/bad story if the gameplay's fun. The gameplay in XIII-2 is actually better, in my opinion. The new monster system adds several limitations to combat, making good planning of Paradigms more crucial. Arist fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Jul 12, 2012 |
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Jul 12, 2012 02:08
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Francois Kofko posted:I just beat it and the question of what orphan was never bothered me (a sleeping falcie whose job was basically to be a giant battery) but the question of why the gently caress they didn't just walk away instead of doing the opposite of what they were going to do all game is baffling. Also that whole thing with ragnarok becoming a crystal spiral.  If they had walked away they would have turned into Cieth. vvv Etro had some influence there. Winks fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Jul 12, 2012 |
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Jul 12, 2012 02:24
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Francois Kofko posted:I just beat it and the question of what orphan was never bothered me (a sleeping falcie whose job was basically to be a giant battery) but the question of why the gently caress they didn't just walk away instead of doing the opposite of what they were going to do all game is baffling. Also that whole thing with ragnarok becoming a crystal spiral. If the party walked away they would become Cie'th, a fate worse than death. Ragnarok becoming a crystal spiral is because of Vanille/Fang changing their Focus, through sheer human will. XIII-2 is tons of fun, so yeah I recommend it gameplay-wise for sure.
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Jul 12, 2012 02:27
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Winks posted:What happened with Ragnarok (and killing Orphan of course) was actually their focus But by walking away, they would have defied their fate - which is the main theme of the game (obviously I know that them turning into crystal zombies wouldn't have made for a good ending, but hey, there are ways around that which don't involve lazy copouts). By destroying Orphan, they do exactly what the antagonists want them to do. By refusing to, and turning into a zombie, then they are going against the antagonists' wishes. So in the end, they basically go against the whole theme of the game, and everything it's been leading up to. So they are defying the theme of defying fate.
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Jul 12, 2012 02:31
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I made Galuf a barehanded Berserker ever since he got the Monk job and I haven't changed him around since. Am I the only person who does that every time?  I think him being initially unarmed is what procs that idea.
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Jul 12, 2012 02:45
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Pesky Splinter posted:But by walking away, they would have defied their fate - which is the main theme of the game (obviously I know that them turning into crystal zombies wouldn't have made for a good ending, but hey, there are ways around that which don't involve lazy copouts). By destroying Orphan, they do exactly what the antagonists want them to do. By refusing to, and turning into a zombie, then they are going against the antagonists' wishes. The defying of fate occurs right at the very end of the game, with Ragnarok and the crystal pillar. That's why Vanille says we've "accomplished the impossible." Destroying Orphan throws down the shackles the fal'Cie have had over humans, which is why XIII-2 is largely devoid of them.
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Jul 12, 2012 02:46
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Pesky Splinter posted:But by walking away, they would have defied their fate - which is the main theme of the game (obviously I know that them turning into crystal zombies wouldn't have made for a good ending, but hey, there are ways around that which don't involve lazy copouts). By destroying Orphan, they do exactly what the antagonists want them to do. By refusing to, and turning into a zombie, then they are going against the antagonists' wishes. The Cocoon falcie wanted to die and take all of humanity with them. They were thwarted.
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Jul 12, 2012 02:51
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Azure_Horizon posted:The defying of fate occurs right at the very end of the game, with Ragnarok and the crystal pillar. That's why Vanille says we've "accomplished the impossible." The last bit was the only logical reason I saw. It's just that for the last 20 hours they said they weren't going to destroy Orphan - that they did end up saving Cocoon was an afterthought. It was just the sudden, unexplained change in their thought process that was so confusing.
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Jul 12, 2012 02:57
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Francois Kofko posted:The last bit was the only logical reason I saw. It's just that for the last 20 hours they said they weren't going to destroy Orphan - that they did end up saving Cocoon was an afterthought. It was just the sudden, unexplained change in their thought process that was so confusing. The reason being for those 20 hours was that Orphan's destruction would also mean Cocoon's destruction. However, thanks to Vanille/Fang, they were able to prevent that inevitability, and still destroy Orphan regardless with a little help from Etro.
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Jul 12, 2012 03:02
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If I've learned one thing from doing the Four Job Fiesta it's that Red Mages are loving useless. Doubly so when they're the last job you get.
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Jul 12, 2012 03:08
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Playing FF3 on iOS at the moment for the first time. Are the physical classes good for _anything_? It seems like every dungeon is spent conserving MP for the inevitable magic dependent boss fights. Physical seems like a huge afterthought, especially with boss fights. Curious to know why the FF3 character in Dissidia is "Onion Knight" when the characters clearly have unique names.. Is it a legacy Jap issue?
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Jul 12, 2012 03:10
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Couch Life posted:If I've learned one thing from doing the Four Job Fiesta it's that Red Mages are loving useless. Doubly so when they're the last job you get. On their own, they do suck. They're better if you get another class that can make use of double cast. It also doesn't hurt to give them dual-wielding or something. On my run, I got white mage/red mage/ninja/chemist, so having a red mage didn't turn out that bad.
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Jul 12, 2012 03:21
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But the point is, it's not by their own hands that they do it. It's a literal loving Deus ex Machina that enables it. It's the writers going "how do we end this? We don't know how to end this. Oh, yeah." And I don't care if it's explained in the sequel. That's lovely loving writing. And then them basically suddenly going "Oh, well, I suppose we can change our focuses now."  what. They still go ahead and kill Orphan anyway, and Cocoon is saved as a side-effect of them turning into Ragnarok. It's still "We'll defy our fate...by killing you just like you've asked us to." which negates the whole "defy" aspect rather. Them not killing everyone horribly seems to come about more by chance than by them actively defying it. Cyberbob posted:Curious to know why the FF3 character in Dissidia is "Onion Knight" when the characters clearly have unique names.. Is it a legacy Jap issue? I think that it's just based more on the NES version than the DS. The NES version had characters you could name, who were all Onion Knights who had no default names, the DS one gave them shallow personalites...because. The Dissidia one is basically an amalgamation of the NES Onion Knight and the unnamed Warrior who was also the basis for Luneth.
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Jul 12, 2012 03:21
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Pesky Splinter posted:But the point is, it's not by their own hands that they do it. Vanille actually forming Ragnarok with Fang was something that never happened before. And because they wanted to save Cocoon, they defied their fates of destroying it. Their version of Ragnarok and the subsequent salvation of Cocoon were by their hands, not by the deus ex machina.
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Jul 12, 2012 03:29
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Yeah, though they did save cocoon, there's no way they (except vanille and fang, I guess) knew that would have happened, unless the party knew something I didn't. It just didn't make any sense. Even though it would mean becoming Cie'th, it felt like everyone would have agreed to not kill Orphan and walk away. Except, again, Fang.
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Jul 12, 2012 03:31
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Azure_Horizon posted:Vanille actually forming Ragnarok with Fang was something that never happened before. And because they wanted to save Cocoon, they defied their fates of destroying it. Their version of Ragnarok and the subsequent salvation of Cocoon were by their hands, not by the deus ex machina. I thought that them joining to become Ragnarok was the Fal Cie's plan anyway. That's what the whole scene with Robo-pope torturing Vanille is about isn't it? And Vanille tells Fang not to become Ragnarok or something. But they do anyway.  Or am I missing something here? And by that, I don't mean, "is it explained in the sequel?".
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Jul 12, 2012 03:40
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Couch Life posted:If I've learned one thing from doing the Four Job Fiesta it's that Red Mages are loving useless. Doubly so when they're the last job you get. Eh. Doublecast Cure 2 is still better healing than most classes are reliably capable of, they can smash rods and equip shields, and there's some low-level spells with a surprising amount of utility (like the white magic confusion spell, which is the second-best way after a Beastmaster to learn Mighty Guard and White Wind). Red Mages aren't immediately powerful, but they're versatile and have a lot of little advantages going for them. They definitely benefit from having a second caster on the team to take full advantage of Doublecast, though.
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Jul 12, 2012 03:43
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Pesky Splinter posted:I thought that them joining to become Ragnarok was the Fal Cie's plan anyway. That's what the whole scene with Robo-pope torturing Vanille is about isn't it? And Vanille tells Fang not to become Ragnarok or something. But they do anyway. The Ragnarok plan was for them to become Ragnarok, destroy Coccoon and kill everyone. In a generic and boring twist they subverted that by using the power of Ragnarok to save Cocoon instead, even though it came at the cost of sacrificing themselves. It isn't particularly interesting but it's really straightforward. I should note that I played the Japanese version of FFXIII and from what I understand the English version has the most bizarre and inept translation a game has had in some time. FFXIII has a lovely plot but the people who play the English version appear to miss completely explained plot points for reasons I can only assume involved whoever translated it being a moron.
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Jul 12, 2012 03:44
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Pesky Splinter posted:I thought that them joining to become Ragnarok was the Fal Cie's plan anyway. That's what the whole scene with Robo-pope torturing Vanille is about isn't it? And Vanille tells Fang not to become Ragnarok or something. But they do anyway. No. The first time Ragnarok was summoned, it was incomplete, as Vanille ran away before it could happen (the War of Transgression, 500 years prior); this incomplete Ragnarok could only think about destroying Orphan, but as we see at the end of XIII, it failed, because it was just Fang alone, which is why Orphan tortured Fang so much (to force Vanille's hand). Upon Orphan's defeat, Vanille agrees to become Ragnarok, but they (her and Fang) changed its Focus from Cocoon's destruction to Cocoon's salvation, since Cocoon was going to fall anyway thanks to Orphan's death. Since they knew what Ragnarok was capable of (destroying a whole planet), they decided to use it instead for good. This is more or less explained by Vanille's last monologue in XIII.
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Jul 12, 2012 03:44
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I don't think using Ragnarok to save Cocoon is really subverting anything. The Pulse falcie didn't want the Cocoon falcie to succeed in summoning Lindzei, but also wanted to destroy the Cocoon falcie. Assumably the war of transgression is fought before there's enough people on Cocoon for them to do so. After losing and time passes that's no longer true and they have to succeed through different means. I don't know why people believe Robopope. Robopope is the archenemy of the Pulse falcie that made the party l'cie in the first place. Just assume everything he says is a lie except for stuff you can independantly verify.
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Jul 12, 2012 03:50
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Winks posted:I don't think using Ragnarok to save Cocoon is really subverting anything. The Pulse falcie didn't want the Cocoon falcie to succeed in summoning Lindzei, but also wanted to destroy the Cocoon falcie. Assumably the war of transgression is fought before there's enough people on Cocoon for them to do so. After losing and time passes that's no longer true and they have to succeed through different means. Is this sequel stuff? The name Lindzei was never mentioned, as far as I know (I assume it's the "Maker") and the intentions of the Pulse falcie were never explained other than that they just... were.
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Jul 12, 2012 03:57
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Winks posted:I don't think using Ragnarok to save Cocoon is really subverting anything. The Pulse falcie didn't want the Cocoon falcie to succeed in summoning Lindzei, but also wanted to destroy the Cocoon falcie. Assumably the war of transgression is fought before there's enough people on Cocoon for them to do so. After losing and time passes that's no longer true and they have to succeed through different means. It's the basic definition of subversion; Ragnarok saving Cocoon rather than destroying it goes against the very order of Ragnarok's existence to begin with. IIRC: Lindzei is mentioned in the Analects of XIII, and the Cocoon fal'Cie brand is Lindzei's mark. On top of that, the statues in the Narthex Throne of Orphan's Cradle are of Lindzei, who is, yeah, the "Maker" of Cocoon. Orphan acquired its name from Lindzei abandoning both Cocoon and its fal'Cie, because Lindzei is akin to a serpentine God, cunning and false. Azure_Horizon fucked around with this message at 04:02 on Jul 12, 2012 |
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Jul 12, 2012 03:58
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Francois Kofko posted:Is this sequel stuff? The name Lindzei was never mentioned, as far as I know (I assume it's the "Maker") and the intentions of the Pulse falcie were never explained other than that they just... were. As far as I know, Burniberzei and Lindzei were mentioned in a separate creation myth and probably some obscure datalog entry that I never bothered to look up. Speaking of which, I hope Burniberzei does wake up only to go "gently caress this" and go back to sleep.
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Jul 12, 2012 04:00
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Azure_Horizon posted:Ragnarok ImpAtom posted:Ragnarok Right, okay, thanks for clarifying for me.  ImpAtom posted:I should note that I played the Japanese version of FFXIII and from what I understand the English version has the most bizarre and inept translation a game has had in some time. FFXIII has a lovely plot but the people who play the English version appear to miss completely explained plot points for reasons I can only assume involved whoever translated it being a moron. I think it's that, after a while, the brain just turns to fudge after x hours of listening to non-plot related dialogue, in a series of scenes and dungeons that have very little connection to each other, and by the time you get to the important stuff, your mind just switches off, thinking it's going to be the same inane drivel you've been listening to, since forever. That was the case with me, anyway. While I can't comment on the translation (though everything seemed okay), the actual writing itself was really really lovely. Even for the usual JRPG standards.
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Jul 12, 2012 04:01
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Pesky Splinter posted:While I can't comment on the translation (though everything seemed okay), the actual writing itself was really really lovely. Even for the usual JRPG standards. "Moms are tough" and then my brain went to slurry until around hour 18 when I was in a sweet rear end tower and I didn't know why.
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Jul 12, 2012 04:06
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Pesky Splinter posted:While I can't comment on the translation (though everything seemed okay), the actual writing itself was really really lovely. Even for the usual JRPG standards. FFXIII doesn't have good writing to begin with but everything I've seen from FFXIII's translation appears overly-literal and stilted. It's 'translated' but with no effort made beyond that, so things that really should have been altered or clarified or cleaned up are not. It's like it was translated by a robot. It also appears to have been voiced directed by a robot whose job was "mimic the Japanese direction exactly" which is the stupidest possible voice direction in the history of mankind.
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Jul 12, 2012 04:15
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Cyberbob posted:Curious to know why the FF3 character in Dissidia is "Onion Knight" when the characters clearly have unique names.. Is it a legacy Jap issue? The Dissidia version of the character is based on the old NES version of the game, where all four of the kids were basically blank templates for you to name as you saw fit. So the Onion Knight in Dissidia isn't actually Luneth or any of the other orphans from the DS/iOS version of the game. The Onion Knight in the game does have a name, according to materials that were released in Japan only (of course). It's never revealed in the game because being summoned to fight for Cosmos & Chaos erases your memories of your original world, and you gradually regain your memories the more you fight. In addition to forgetting his past, the Onion Knight also forgot his name, and apparently he and the Warrior of Light were the only ones who forgot their names. By the time he finally remembered what it was, he was so embarrassed at having forgotten it that he just keeps going with everyone calling him "the kid" or by his title.
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Jul 12, 2012 04:40
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Francois Kofko posted:Is this sequel stuff? The name Lindzei was never mentioned, as far as I know (I assume it's the "Maker") and the intentions of the Pulse falcie were never explained other than that they just... were. Lindzei is named by calling the Cocoon falcie 'Lindzei's hateful falcie'. The same cutscene makes a direct reference to Etro and mentions her interceding to prevent the destruction of Cocoon the first time, but calls her 'Her Providence'. This cutscene.
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Jul 12, 2012 04:56
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ImpAtom posted:FFXIII doesn't have good writing to begin with but everything I've seen from FFXIII's translation appears overly-literal and stilted. It's 'translated' but with no effort made beyond that, so things that really should have been altered or clarified or cleaned up are not. It's like it was translated by a robot. It also appears to have been voiced directed by a robot whose job was "mimic the Japanese direction exactly" which is the stupidest possible voice direction in the history of mankind. I don't know. Final Fantasy X's dubbing directions of "make the dialogue match the character's mouth NO MATTER WHAT" still seems a forerunner in terrible voice acting direction. That said, I don't think any better localized a translation would make the game's writing come off any less lovely or presented any less hamfisted.
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Jul 12, 2012 05:07
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I was actually enjoying White Mage/beserker in my four job fiesta, but beastmaster kind of has me unwilling to pick it up again. Whip lockdown is pretty neat but a lot of beastmaster gimmicks take a lot of planning/effort for a 1 shot trick on a boss, and I dislike the pokemon style catching mechanics when it's very easy to be cleaving enemies down very quickly. I would have enjoyed geomancer more because it's more of a 'deal with what you're given for this fight' kind of deal. Also a good amount of the gimmicks would require grinding out !catch on multiple characters to really be effective. Maybe I'm missing something? Outside of !Calm working on omega apparently, which is pretty funny.
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Jul 12, 2012 05:08
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My eyes glaze over even reading posts about that stuff and I actually enjoyed the plots of 8, 10, and 12. It's still very easy for me to understand how most people found 13's story ridiculous at best and incomprehensible at worst. I remember being annoyed when FFT with its awful translation and Xenogears with its warped plot twists and bizarre second disc totally vexed the gaming media so maybe FF13 fans feel the same way about me right now. I don't particularly care. They're wrong, FF13 is nonsense, and the only way to work out exactly what's going on, unpack its ideas, and ascribe sensible motivations to most of the characters is to examine and discuss it with a level of scrutiny it does nothing to deserve. I had some fun playing it because of the battle system and some of the audio-visual stuff was great, but it's joining 2 and 3 on the pile of main series games I'll never replay and 13-2 is a better actual game in pretty much every appreciable way. EDIT: I'm not even sure that last part is controversial, since most people that don't either love or hate both games seem to agree. VVV Francois Kofko posted:Huh, and I thought I was paying good attention. Thanks. The thing is, I'm not sure it's really mine or your faults that we weren't paying good attention. Baku fucked around with this message at 05:12 on Jul 12, 2012 |
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Jul 12, 2012 05:09
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Huh, and I thought I was paying good attention. Thanks.
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Jul 12, 2012 05:11
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Francois Kofko posted:Huh, and I thought I was paying good attention. Thanks. 13 and 13-2's plots are actually not that complicated if you read around a little and seek out some of the subtler clues. I'd go so far as to say they're simpler than most FF games, it's just that their presentation is a bit wonky.
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Jul 12, 2012 05:47
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ImpAtom posted:FFXIII doesn't have good writing to begin with but everything I've seen from FFXIII's translation appears overly-literal and stilted. It's 'translated' but with no effort made beyond that, so things that really should have been altered or clarified or cleaned up are not. It's like it was translated by a robot. It also appears to have been voiced directed by a robot whose job was "mimic the Japanese direction exactly" which is the stupidest possible voice direction in the history of mankind. It can't be helped.
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