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Ashenai posted:I have to say I'm enjoying M13. Maybe AVR just lowered my expectations, but it's surprisingly deep and fun, for a Core Set. And the speed feels just about right, too; aggro and control are both viable. A lot of the time, I'm not even sure if I should be going first or second when I win the die roll. I'll have to agree that M13 gives some pretty crazy quality / depth whiplash coming from AVR - there's very few cards you'd never play, and there's so many archetypes that are at least fun to play that it almost feels like a completely different game. It's not as complex as Innistrad or DII, but from my experience it's almost as interesting to play in limited.
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Aug 2, 2012 18:12
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I'm one of the few who actually like AVR limited, but honestly playing M13 is a breath of fresh air.
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Aug 2, 2012 18:29
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Yeah I'm guessing it'll be nice to play 4-pack sealed and not have to be like, "awesome, 15 out of my 42 cards are NOT PLAYABLE AT ALL"
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Aug 2, 2012 18:41
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Ashenai posted:Rings have been mostly underwhelming for me. They're fine and I'll always play them in an appropriately colored deck, but for now I've revised my estimation of them downwards. They're just so slow. In the right board state, they can just destroy your opponent in slow motion, but sometimes you draw them in a tense racing situation and you wish they were just about any other card in your deck. I can't get over someone going ring, ring, Primal Huntbeast, equip both. That was a beating.
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Aug 2, 2012 18:54
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T1 Kraken Hatchling T2 Ring of Evos Isle T3 Equip is a beating, too. Especially with the Hexproof there's just no way you're ever removing that thing.
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Aug 2, 2012 18:58
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My best ring story is turn one Slumbing Dragon, turn two ring. I think they only had Prey Upon and Divine Verdict as removal.
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Aug 2, 2012 19:02
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Okay, so here's a question - what do you guys think of Naturalize as a main-deckable card in M13? Not as a strong card, but as a role player 22nd or 23rd? Off the top of my head, I can think of a dozen or so cards that it's a very good answer to: - Rings - Sands of Delerium - Nin's Staff - Mark of the Vampire - Dark Favor - Pacifism - Encrust - Oblivion Ring - Kitesail All of those are cards people aren't unhappy playing main-deck, and i'm sure there's more i'm not thinking of as well. The format seems deep enough with powerful artifacts/enchantments that almost everyone has one, so i'm starting to think it might be worth it!
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Aug 2, 2012 19:11
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Niton posted:Okay, so here's a question - what do you guys think of Naturalize as a main-deckable card in M13? Not as a strong card, but as a role player 22nd or 23rd? Off the top of my head, I can think of a dozen or so cards that it's a very good answer to: There have definitely been drafts that I've maindecked naturalize and been happy with it. I've never had it be fully dead. But it's definitely a 23rd card.
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Aug 2, 2012 19:23
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Niton posted:Okay, so here's a question - what do you guys think of Naturalize as a main-deckable card in M13? Not as a strong card, but as a role player 22nd or 23rd? Off the top of my head, I can think of a dozen or so cards that it's a very good answer to:
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Aug 2, 2012 19:26
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It's, uhh, very not-good against Rancor, though.
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Aug 2, 2012 19:27
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The Lord of Hats posted:T1 Kraken Hatchling T2 Ring of Evos Isle T3 Equip is a beating, too. Especially with the Hexproof there's just no way you're ever removing that thing. Okay well I just got my poo poo pushed in by a Ring of Xathrid on a Vampire Nighthawk, so, uh, yeah. I guess it really depends on which Ring, and which creature.
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Aug 2, 2012 19:32
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Niton posted:Okay, so here's a question - what do you guys think of Naturalize as a main-deckable card in M13? Not as a strong card, but as a role player 22nd or 23rd? Off the top of my head, I can think of a dozen or so cards that it's a very good answer to: I kind of feel the same way about it as I do plummet. Both are extremely useful in the right situation, but have the possibility of being dead cards against certain decks. Whether or not I would maindeck either depends mostly on the rest of my deck. If my deck is solid but I have hardly any or no fliers or reach guys, that's a situation where I'd maindeck plummet, since my deck just has a really hard time dealing with fliers. If I have fliers and reach guys, I'm going to care less about maindecking it. It's harder to give examples for naturalize, but basically I'd just consider how likely I am to run into annoying artifacts or enchantments along with how hard it is for me to deal with them/how much do they screw up my plan. For example, if I have some bomby creature(s) like Krenko or stormtide leviathan that get blanked by stuff like encrust or pacifism, I'd be more likely to maindeck naturalize.
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Aug 2, 2012 19:33
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Boy of Joy posted:Don't forget Rancor! I think Naturalize is essential in this format and will probably consider maindecking it in the future. It saved my rear end pretty much every game I drew it in a sealed event last night (I was siding it in). Killed Sands of Delirium, Tricks of the Trade, 2 different rings and a ringed-up enchanted Primal Clay. Why in the world would you ever cast it on a rancor?
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Aug 2, 2012 20:03
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Naturalize is obviously a lot less good vs Rancor, but I can see myself doing it to screw up combat math/save myself from dying. Removing trample is pretty big, and could be a good tactical decision even if they recast it after combat.
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Aug 2, 2012 20:05
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Yeah it's not great against Rancor but in a pinch it can be OK.
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Aug 2, 2012 20:20
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They reprinted erase for a reason. Naturalizing a Rancor is not a good idea. I really like the rings. More importantly I PREFER the rings to the lucky charms. What I like most about M13 is the small changes they made which resulted in cards like Switcheroo from Mind Control, Predatory Rampage from Overrun, etc. They feel fresh and exciting to play with.
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Aug 2, 2012 21:02
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I agree that the rings are much better than the charms, absolutely. I just think the +1/+1 counter mechanic is a bit boring to play with/against.
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Aug 2, 2012 21:35
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I like all the rings on color. The +1/+1 counters can add inevitability and can potentially make any creature a huge threat. Inevitability + Protection like on the Blue and Black rings are insane and game winning. Your opponent is essentially going to have to blow at least two removal spells to get rid of a blue or black monster equipped with their ring. Trample plays nicely on creatures that are naturally growing each turn and green critters tend to start the biggest so I like that one too. Vigilance usually ends up being better than I give it credit for, so I like the white ring but it's much lower on my list. I'd probably take the black ring over the white one even if I wasn't playing black (and was playing white). The red one has the worst ability, I think, since it costs 1 to equip and that isn't exactly where I want to be. I've not had it be relevant yet, but I think I've only played it once.
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Aug 2, 2012 23:29
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Before last week I hadn't played any magic since the end of February, but I was reading here that M13 was a pretty good set for limited play (and that AVR kind of sucked). When I went to draft last weekend everyone at the local shops just wanted to draft AVR, however, so I didn't get to experience any of the M13 fun. I think the main problem is that most of the people at my local shops are really terrible at drafting. For proof, I submit the deck I won with: Deck: Stupid AVR Draft Deck  //Main 17 Swamp 1 Blood Artist 1 Gloom Surgeon 1 Butcher Ghoul 1 Crypt Creeper 1 Dark Impostor 1 Bloodflow Connoisseur 3 Demonic Taskmaster 1 Undead Executioner 1 Corpse Traders 1 Marrow Bats 1 Harvester of Souls 2 Homicidal Seclusion 1 Human Frailty 3 Death Wind 1 Essence Harvest 1 Bone Splinters 1 Grave Exchange 1 Predator's Gambit  Display deck statisticsI got the first Homicidal Seclusion P1P1, I got the second one P2P12. My 3 first picks were Homicidal Seclusion, Blood Artist, and I got pretty lucky with the Harvester in pack 3.
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Aug 3, 2012 01:21
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Harvester pick 3? I can't think what I'd take over that, twice.
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Aug 3, 2012 01:44
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Snacksmaniac posted:Harvester pick 3? I can't think what I'd take over that, twice. Woops I didn't mean my first 3 picks, I meant my first picks for each of the three packs. but yeah that means I got passed all 3 taskmasters, all 3 death winds,the second homicidal seclusion, the dark imposter and the gloom surgeon.
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Aug 3, 2012 02:00
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Would Vampire Nocturnus be worth while in a mostly black deck with no other vampires? Is 3/3, sometimes a 5/4 flyer worth giving away your draws? It's 6 pack sealed.
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Aug 3, 2012 05:05
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I just went 3-1 at draft with a R/U card draw/flyers deck. Here's the list: 9 x mountain 7 x island 1 x kraken hatchling 1 x goblin arsonist 1 x chronomaton 1 x unsummon 1 x welkin tern 1 x reverberate 1 x searing spear 1 x divination 2 x scroll thief 2 x wind drake 1 x encrust 1 x flames of the firebrand 2 x wall of fire 2 x tricks of the trade 2 x furnace whelp 2 x chandras fury 1 x switcheroo 1 x faerie invaders Thoughts: Tricks of the trade are hilarious. Scroll thief is good card draw when paired with tricks of the trade. Furnace whelps are excellent in limited. Getting an opponenets sleeping dragon to 5 counter and then immediately switcheroo-ing it for a kraken hatchling is also very funny. All in all I didn't pull any big money cards, but I had a great time.
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Aug 3, 2012 05:06
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I've drafted m13 three times so far and haven't been having any fun (or winning). I feel like there are so many subpar cards in this format that can just completely blow you out in the right situation (especially the combat tricks that effect multiple targets and rings). Not to mention the ridiculous rares that randomly win games if you happen to draw them. I can't think of a single loss where I didn't feel like "well there's your bomb rare and I have 2 removal spells in my hand, but neither of them deal with that particular rare, so I guess I lose" or "well you attacked with all of your creatures, so if you have combat trick a, then I should block like this, but if you have combat trick b, I should be block like this, or if you have combat trick c, I should block like this... well I'll block against combat trick a because its the only one that I would consider playing... and you had combat trick c, so I guess all my guys die".
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Aug 3, 2012 05:12
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2MB posted:Would Vampire Nocturnus be worth while in a mostly black deck with no other vampires? Is 3/3, sometimes a 5/4 flyer worth giving away your draws? It's 6 pack sealed. I'd run it.
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Aug 3, 2012 06:13
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 This is what I ended up running with. Would you guys have built it any different? This is my first sealed so fire away!
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Aug 3, 2012 06:16
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2MB posted:This is what I ended up running with. Would you guys have built it any different? This is my first sealed so fire away! Krenko's silly good in sealed, and combos really well with the otherwise lackluster Fervor. Crimson Muckwader goes good with your strong black. Add a searing spear and red isn't too bad. But even in a BW build, I think Divine Verdict serves you better than Captain's Call, and another Essence Drain gives you more removal.
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Aug 3, 2012 06:56
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 I'm playing with this right now. Game one he just had an answer to everything I did, all the time. Game two was the other way around. 1-1, waiting for some people to finish to move on. In retrospect, definitely want the Essence Drains maindeck. 2-1 now. I've won two matches after siding in Essence Drain and using it to deal the last 3 damage. That card is excellent. I always want it. flyingkiwi fucked around with this message at 07:35 on Aug 3, 2012 |
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Aug 3, 2012 07:09
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Shovelmint posted:Krenko's silly good in sealed, and combos really well with the otherwise lackluster Fervor. Crimson Muckwader goes good with your strong black. Add a searing spear and red isn't too bad. But even in a BW build, I think Divine Verdict serves you better than Captain's Call, and another Essence Drain gives you more removal. What would you cut for the second essence drain? And I went with W/B because I felt that besides Krenko, my red didn't offer too much compared to white, and krenko sounds good in stalled situations but I hate relying on one uber card when I could play a more consistent base of cards.
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Aug 3, 2012 07:13
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nvm
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Aug 3, 2012 07:17
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2MB posted:What would you cut for the second essence drain? And I went with W/B because I felt that besides Krenko, my red didn't offer too much compared to white, and krenko sounds good in stalled situations but I hate relying on one uber card when I could play a more consistent base of cards. You were right, red is certainly not correct here, especially not Fervor, which was what he was suggesting. Fervor is just abysmal. You have only 5 red cards I want to play ever, and they don't come close to Pacifism/Oring/Serra Angel quality. I'd cut Crusader of Odric for sure, and any of your mediocre 2-drops, probably Silvermane Lion, for Essence Drain and Vampire Nocturnus. You're playing a deck with over 1/3 black cards, and you're not playing Nocturnus. At WORST he's not worse than Captain's Call, and over 40% of the time he's a 5 power flier for 4 mana. Who cares if you don't have other vampires?
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Aug 3, 2012 07:47
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2MB posted:What would you cut for the second essence drain? And I went with W/B because I felt that besides Krenko, my red didn't offer too much compared to white, and krenko sounds good in stalled situations but I hate relying on one uber card when I could play a more consistent base of cards. WB looks like the best choice here. You definitely should have run Divine verdict, and Safe passage would also have been a reasonable card to play. You should also be running ring of Thune if your in white. In terms of cards to cut, you could probably get away with running just 1 liliana's shade. Crusader of Odric is questionable because you only have 1 captains call/token generator. She's cool and can be a monster but sometimes shes just a 1/1 for 3. And also what ultima said.
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Aug 3, 2012 11:23
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Jet Set Jettison posted:You should also be running ring of Thune if your in white. 11B/6W seems a bit overboard since you want to make WW for Serra and Silvercoat Lion gets increasingly worse after turn 2, and the Shade finds its own swamps so I'd probably go to 10/7 and/or cut the Lion. Now that I think about it, you need to make room for that Essence Drain but man I don't want to cut any more creatures since control seems very poor in this format without good blockers.
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Aug 3, 2012 14:19
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Lone Goat posted:He has 4 white creatures plus Captain's Call, Ring of Thune is pretty miserable in this deck. Giving Vigilance to your non-white 2/2 is a wasted card. And you want to remove more white creatures? Thats true about the ring, I didnt really count the amount of white creatures. Disregard my ring suggestion! Also he could also cut a walking corpse if he wants to level off the amount of black he has in the deck. It the same thing as silvercoat. Dunno, maybe cut dark favor? Probably not because you really want to beef your Tormented soul with it and you dont have a TON of exalted.
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Aug 3, 2012 14:35
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Atown posted:I've drafted m13 three times so far and haven't been having any fun (or winning). I feel like there are so many subpar cards in this format that can just completely blow you out in the right situation (especially the combat tricks that effect multiple targets and rings). Not to mention the ridiculous rares that randomly win games if you happen to draw them. I can't think of a single loss where I didn't feel like "well there's your bomb rare and I have 2 removal spells in my hand, but neither of them deal with that particular rare, so I guess I lose" or "well you attacked with all of your creatures, so if you have combat trick a, then I should block like this, but if you have combat trick b, I should be block like this, or if you have combat trick c, I should block like this... well I'll block against combat trick a because its the only one that I would consider playing... and you had combat trick c, so I guess all my guys die". I don't know if M13 is really better or worse than other core set drafts but this is really the way Limited works in general. AVR was this times ten.
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Aug 3, 2012 15:11
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Atown posted:I've drafted m13 three times so far and haven't been having any fun (or winning). I feel like there are so many subpar cards in this format that can just completely blow you out in the right situation (especially the combat tricks that effect multiple targets and rings). That is... actually the hallmark of a good Limited format (the alternatives would be "a bunch of broken cards that can blow you out in every situation", and "a bunch of horrible cards that are never good". Avacyn Restored had a ton of both of those.) The point of the game, at its best, is to maneuver the game state into a position where your "subpar cards" can wreck the opponent without him realizing what you're doing. quote:Not to mention the ridiculous rares that randomly win games if you happen to draw them. It feels like there are actually fewer of those than I'm used to. Most rares are powerful but not game-breaking, and can be dealt with fairly easily. quote:"well you attacked with all of your creatures, so if you have combat trick a, then I should block like this, but if you have combat trick b, I should be block like this, or if you have combat trick c, I should block like this... well I'll block against combat trick a because its the only one that I would consider playing... and you had combat trick c, so I guess all my guys die". I think a lot of the things you're complaining about are actually great, you just don't like them because you found yourself on the wrong side of them (which is understandable I guess.) Ashenai fucked around with this message at 15:26 on Aug 3, 2012 |
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Aug 3, 2012 15:18
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I despise Crusader. Am I alone in this?
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Aug 3, 2012 15:29
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Jet Set Jettison posted:Thats true about the ring, I didnt really count the amount of white creatures. Disregard my ring suggestion! Why would you want to level off black? If anything, you'd want all your low drops to be the same colour so that it strains your mana less. Yeah, Dark Favor or Kitesail was the next card I was looking at since you're starting to run out of creatures to put them on.
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Aug 3, 2012 15:35
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 Thoughts? I'm not unhappy, I don't think.
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Aug 3, 2012 18:10
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Tracker will get you your spiders? That's pretty good. You have a lot of relevant sideboard cards available too.
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Aug 3, 2012 18:50
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