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Is it just me or do a lot of the Dwarves just look ridiculous? I mean you have Thorin and a couple of the other guys who have the Dwarf 'look' and then you have one guy with a bow who looks like a 70s porn star and the guy who looks like a retarded Andy Dick. Don't get me wrong, I think they really overdid it with the prosthetics on Gimli in LOTR but why have some guys look like that then others with virtually no makeup on at all?
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Aug 22, 2012 23:43
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For the purposes of character diversity, audience connectivity, and it's a children's book at its heart so that's why retarded Andy Dick is there.
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Aug 22, 2012 23:53
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FrensaGeran posted:For the purposes of character diversity, audience connectivity, and it's a children's book at its heart so that's why retarded Andy Dick is there. I don't want Andy Dick, retarded or not, anywhere near my childrens hearts.
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Aug 23, 2012 02:20
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I like this film's fresh new take on the look of fantasy dwarves. The "Warhammer" Dwarf trope is getting old.
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Aug 23, 2012 03:12
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Rocket Ace posted:I like this film's fresh new take on the look of fantasy dwarves. The "Warhammer" Dwarf trope is getting old. I gotta agree with this. Even if some of them do look pretty goofy, its better than a troupe of short vikings with big weapons like they appear as in every other fantasy universe. These guys look more like a fantasy race should, in my opinion. Its otherworldly but still believable.
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Aug 23, 2012 04:17
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Unzip and Attack posted:Is it just me or do a lot of the Dwarves just look ridiculous? I mean you have Thorin and a couple of the other guys who have the Dwarf 'look' and then you have one guy with a bow who looks like a 70s porn star and the guy who looks like a retarded Andy Dick. Don't get me wrong, I think they really overdid it with the prosthetics on Gimli in LOTR but why have some guys look like that then others with virtually no makeup on at all? Retarded Andy Dick is my favourite dwarf 
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Aug 23, 2012 04:27
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As for the whole Galadriel sword fighting thing: I'm glad that she might be doing so. Another fantasy trope that I hate is the one that female characters are always delegated to being archers or magic users. "Girls shouldn't fight with swords! They're not strong enough!" <- an opinion which I always find pretty weak in fantasy settings about magic and dragons and hobbits who can kill orcs. And yeah, you see Gandalf sword fighting in Moria and in Minas Tirith. Did anyone actually forget the scene where he's slashing away and spinning his staff around vs. orcs?
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Aug 23, 2012 15:03
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Tolkien already undercut that trope with Eowyn/Dernhelm.
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Aug 23, 2012 15:06
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In recent cinema, defying that cliche has become as cliched as the cliche itself. If the scene's first priority is to make sense for the character, it'll be good no matter which stereotype it conforms to or avoids, and if the scene's first priority is to conform to or avoid a stereotype, it'll be bad no matter how much sense it makes.
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Aug 23, 2012 15:10
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Remember that the most recognizable "dwarves" in pop culture are the goofy whistling laborers from Snow White, not the D&D/Warhammer variant. In any case, Tolkien dwarves were created to be a Jewish analogue, not a viking analogue. Mechafunkzilla fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Aug 23, 2012 |
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Aug 23, 2012 15:37
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Rocket Ace posted:As for the whole Galadriel sword fighting thing: I'm glad that she might be doing so. Have you not seen any film/TV/comic book/video game in the last 20 years?
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Aug 23, 2012 16:33
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Mechafunkzilla posted:In any case, Tolkien dwarves were created to be a Jewish analogue what  Oh god the more I think about it 
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Aug 23, 2012 16:41
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The dwarven language is modeled on Hebrew. Beyond that the "analogy" to the Jews is not very strict. JRRT didn't think Jews lived under mountains.
euphronius fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Aug 23, 2012 |
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Aug 23, 2012 16:43
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euphronius posted:JRRT didn't think Jews lived under mountains. You don't know that.
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Aug 23, 2012 16:55
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But they do love mining and hording gold (and other valuables). EDIT: By "they" I meant dwarves ahahaha holy poo poo
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Aug 23, 2012 17:27
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Also: big noses. 
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Aug 23, 2012 17:29
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Just sitting around imagining Bar Refaeli and Natalie Portman with giant beards.
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Aug 23, 2012 17:34
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Dragon sickness as a parallel to Zionism.
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Aug 23, 2012 17:37
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No one tosses a dwarf...down the well. And I'm spent. In all seriousness I really hope there isn't any truth to this. edit: for content... Variety posted:Frame-Rate Aud Bait kiimo fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Aug 23, 2012 |
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Aug 23, 2012 17:47
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There are extensive influences from earth cultures to Middle-Earth ones, but Tolkien vociferously denied any intentional allegory in his works.
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Aug 23, 2012 17:56
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Bongo Bill posted:In recent cinema, defying that cliche has become as cliched as the cliche itself. If the scene's first priority is to make sense for the character, it'll be good no matter which stereotype it conforms to or avoids, and if the scene's first priority is to conform to or avoid a stereotype, it'll be bad no matter how much sense it makes. No, it really hasn't. The only people who think that are people who see something that defies the cliche and instantly go "Oh god, ANOTHER (X)" when they ignore the ten billion times the cliche gets used between those points. You're right that it's important for it to make sense for the character but far too many writers tend towards the "I'm doing something stereotypical and mildly offensive but it totally fits the character, guys" route. It isn't enough nor is ever enough for an author to go "it makes sense for the character," because the author created that character. If they created a character who has to be stereotypical, it still is their fault for creating that character. If you have a character acting in a certain way that reinforces harmful or stupid stereotypes you drat well better have a good thematic reason for it.
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Aug 23, 2012 18:03
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The situation is rather less clear in the case of an adaptation, however. E: The character does in this case exist prior to and independently of the work. Making a character who averts a cliche is laudable and all, but if the presentation of the character is driven by the specific goal of averting the cliche, that's often a case of misplaced priorities typical of inferior writing, whose negative effects will be felt elsewhere. As with everything, context is necessary for understanding, and the total content of the work is a far a better indication of how well it handles its potentially problematic elements than a checklist of stereotypes. Bongo Bill fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Aug 23, 2012 |
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Aug 23, 2012 18:17
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Bongo Bill posted:The situation is rather less clear in the case of an adaptation, however. This is true. It can be difficult to run into a problem where conveying the author's intent goes hand-in-hand with conveying something problematic. I think at that point it really depends on what you're doing and why. The Shining isn't at all true to Stephen King's intent and drastically changes the motivations of certain characters, but it's also hard not to argue that the changes work better for the specific story it is trying to tell.
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Aug 23, 2012 18:21
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kiimo posted:Just sitting around imagining Bar Refaeli and Natalie Portman with giant beards. Hmmm. Slightly unsettling, yet still hot.
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Aug 23, 2012 18:54
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Effingham posted:Hmmm. Slightly unsettling, yet still hot. I remember having a weird thing for Salma Hayek's Frida, but I'm hoping that was more to do with Salma Hayek, rather than the girlstache. I haven't gone out of my way to delve any deeper than that - there could be things lurking down there that I don't really want to wake up.
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Aug 23, 2012 19:03
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Mr. Gibbycrumbles posted:I remember having a weird thing for Salma Hayek's Frida, but I'm hoping that was more to do with Salma Hayek, rather than the girlstache. I haven't gone out of my way to delve any deeper than that - there could be things lurking down there that I don't really want to wake up. 
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Aug 23, 2012 19:14
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Goddamnit.
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Aug 23, 2012 19:21
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Mechafunkzilla posted:Remember that the most recognizable "dwarves" in pop culture are the goofy whistling laborers from Snow White, not the D&D/Warhammer variant. This. When was the last time that fantasy Dwarves appeared in a big budget Hollywood movie? It's not like your typical moviegoer is going to sit down with a bucket of popcorn, see that the Dwarves 'look' like Gimli, then roll their eyes and go "oh my God not THIS tired cliche again!" It's far more strange to have some of the Dwarves have crazy prosthetics (Balin) so that they look very alien/inhuman while others have absolutely none (the 70s porn guy) and look like romance novel cover dudes.
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Aug 23, 2012 19:24
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MANIFEST DESTINY posted:Have you not seen any film/TV/comic book/video game in the last 20 years? My point is that typically guys (usually nerds) complain just about each and every time. Unless the character is really hot and scantly clad.
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Aug 23, 2012 23:30
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Bongo Bill posted:There are extensive influences from earth cultures to Middle-Earth ones, but Tolkien vociferously denied any intentional allegory in his works. Tangentially related, I love the story about Tolkien losing his poo poo at C.S Lewis over "Aslan=Jesus and also Santa Claus is here as well" in The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe.
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Aug 24, 2012 00:25
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 "Fantasy is serious business! What the bloody hell are you playing at? You're making a mockery of our art!" "Chill broham, have some Turkish Delight."
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Aug 24, 2012 02:59
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Data Graham posted:
It's pretty heavily implied that the reason Susan doesn't stay in Narnia is because she matures enough to wear lipstick. C.S. Lewis had some pretty messed up views. Also there's that creepy scene where Aslan judges all the other animals, sending the ones he doesn't like to an unnamed place.
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Aug 24, 2012 14:11
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Data Graham posted:
Tolkien treated it as extremely serious business, and I think it paid off. I think a large part of why his mythology has stood the test of time is due to its unrivalled detail and self-consistency.
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Aug 24, 2012 15:49
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Plucky Brit posted:It's pretty heavily implied that the reason Susan doesn't stay in Narnia is because she matures enough to wear lipstick. C.S. Lewis had some pretty messed up views. Also there's that creepy scene where Aslan judges all the other animals, sending the ones he doesn't like to an unnamed place. There's also the fact that that the Muslim allegories worshiped Satan.
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Aug 24, 2012 16:06
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Alhazred posted:There's also the fact that that the Muslim allegories worshiped Satan. Oh yeah, I forgot about that. He merged parts of every eastern culture from Morocco to India (i.e. every stereotypically dark-skinned nation) then added devil worship on top of it. Then adds a part in the end about righteous pagans out of left field- everybody who's nice actually worships Aslan! Hooray!
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Aug 24, 2012 22:43
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The Last Battle is a really weird book. Before that you have Santa showing up with presents, talking mice, goofy one footed people and then suddenly you have a story where the world is destroyed and everybody dies.
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Aug 25, 2012 12:04
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Can't wait to see them doggedly keep making movies of all the Narnia books, with a smaller budget and distribution target each time, until The Last Battle is made as a SyFy TV movie starring Robert Picardo as Tirian.
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Aug 26, 2012 03:08
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Data Graham posted:Can't wait to see them doggedly keep making movies of all the Narnia books, with a smaller budget and distribution target each time, until The Last Battle is made as a SyFy TV movie starring Robert Picardo as Tirian. Did they make more Narnia movies? I only remember the first one coming out.
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Aug 26, 2012 08:16
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Octy posted:Did they make more Narnia movies? I only remember the first one coming out. Mr. Gibbycrumbles posted:Tolkien treated it as extremely serious business, and I think it paid off. I think a large part of why his mythology has stood the test of time is due to its unrivalled detail and self-consistency. You know they are still making Narnia movies book by book and they are popular. 3 movies down. The Magicians Nephew is next. These too have stood the test of time. Of course I prefer Tolkien much more myself, but all things Narnia are generally popular.
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Aug 26, 2012 09:11
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Bombadilillo posted:You know they are still making Narnia movies book by book and they are popular. 3 movies down. The Magicians Nephew is next. The budgets for those got smaller and smaller and I thought they called it a day after the 3rd one pretty much bombed...?
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Aug 26, 2012 10:35
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