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Above Our Own posted:^^ Shenkt's abilities go far beyond what Bayaz has demonstrated in the series, which makes little sense. Shenkt has superior physical abilities, but thats because he is an eater, whereas Bayaz isnt as far as we know. On the other hand we saw Bayaz blow up a person by glaring at him and take out an army of eaters with a single big spell So all things considered I would be more scared of Bayaz.
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Aug 27, 2012 20:05
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Bayaz defeated the Hundred Words by using the Seed, the most powerful artifact in the established lore. Bayaz is very likely an eater, as he has several eaters in his employ. Bayaz went completely catonic from the strain after using magic to defeat a small band of mercenaries, whereas Shenkt is shown wiping out dozens of people without any indication that his power has any kind of limit.
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Aug 27, 2012 20:22
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Looks like the proof version of the book was given out to some people to do reviews. Here is a link to one that has some spoilers in it but really made me want this book now. The author of the review said "This is Abercrombie’s best book to date." http://fantasy-faction.com/2012/red-country-review Edit: Above Our Own posted:whereas Shenkt is shown wiping out dozens of people without any indication that his power has any kind of limit. That's mostly due to the fact that he wasn't using High Art to accomplish this goal like Bayez did, Shenkt just used the powers granted to him through Eating. Some Eaters get better powers then others, some feel no pain and are strong while others get super speed like Shenkt and Yoru Sulfur. Clinton1011 fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Aug 27, 2012 |
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Aug 27, 2012 22:54
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Just finished The First Law. I'm usually into weirder fantasy (Wolfe, Erikson, Mieville) but I was really impressed by how this series went out of its way to play to the stereotypes before twisting them. While some of those other authors go out of their way to be as non-traditional as they can with their fantasy, Abercrombie went out of his way to deceive you into thinking it was a lot more traditional than it actually was, which made it a more effective slap in the face. A question about the ending though. I liked how it was going to a nice place and then suddenly turned awful for everybody. And most of the POV stories made sense to me thematically, but Logen's ending felt like a bit of a letdown, it felt like he'd made all this progress but then nothing had changed in the end. Was that the point? Is Dow the king now?
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Aug 28, 2012 02:42
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:And most of the POV stories made sense to me thematically, but Logen's ending felt like a bit of a letdown, it felt like he'd made all this progress but then nothing had changed in the end. Was that the point? Is Dow the king now? You had the right reaction. Abercrombie's big theme is that people don't change (and I've already gone into my opinions on that before so I'll leave it at that), so you pretty much feel like you should about it. As for the that second question, yes, he is. Oh Snapple! fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Aug 28, 2012 |
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Aug 28, 2012 02:47
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^^^ If youre going to quote someone's spoiler post make sure you keep both spoiler brackets! Fix that!  Shenkt doesn't need to be well developed, he's just a reason why the end situation of Best Served Cold wouldn't be an easy fix for Bayaz and his minions' capabilities so Abercrombie could add some spice to his fantasy world. And this Bayaz/Shenkt powerlevel talk is ridiculous. Remember Bayaz's magi buddy Yulwei turned one of those eater's bones to water and one to fire, or whatever it was when he was rescuing Ferro. PlushCow fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Aug 28, 2012 |
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Aug 28, 2012 03:11
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Hondo82 posted:Remember Bayaz's magi buddy Yulwei turned one of those eater's bones to water and one to fire, or whatever it was when he was rescuing Ferro. "What ever works for their kind." I really hope we haven't seen the last of Yulwei. Glokta and him and the two characters I will be sad to never see again.
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Aug 28, 2012 03:17
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UncleMonkey posted:Yeah, that's fair enough. You're right. He really doesn't have any development.
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Aug 28, 2012 06:13
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Above Our Own posted:^^ Shenkt's abilities go far beyond what Bayaz has demonstrated in the series, which makes little sense. Ehh, not really. Bayaz can just blink and make your face explode. Shenkt has physical abilities, but so does Yoru Sulfur (pretty much equal ones). Eaters are different from the Magi but not more powerful. After all like a hundred of them followed Khalul, Yoru Sulfur thinks that Bayaz is the hottest poo poo that ever shitted and Shenkt certainly doesn't straight up go and kill Bayaz.
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Aug 28, 2012 17:13
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,Clinton1011 posted:"What ever works for their kind." I think Glotka will pop up again, after this next book I think he said he's going to go back and do another trilogy focusing more on Bayaz/Union vs. Ghurkish/Khalul. Glotka is bound to pop up at least a few times.
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Aug 28, 2012 18:37
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Pretty much a "disparage MY FANTASY at your peril" sperg-post inbound! Above Our Own posted:Whereas Shenkt is shown wiping out dozens of people without any indication that his power has any kind of limit. Oh Snapple! posted:You had the right reaction. Abercrombie's big theme is that people don't change (and I've already gone into my opinions on that before so I'll leave it at that), so you pretty much feel like you should about it. You could say that his main theme is about the futility of attempting to effect major change as one man at ground level. But BSC was basically a study of the worth of mercy and kindness so I'm willing to give him time to grow with that one.
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Aug 28, 2012 19:53
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I don't think his theme is "people don't change" so much as "personal change is rare, difficult, and slow." Jezal for example goes through some character change by developing compassion and bravery, but the end of the book is clear that he hasn't completely discarded his cowardly nature either. Shivers ends up much worse after his attempts to change, and Logen stays about the same really throughout the course of the novels.
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Aug 28, 2012 21:23
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I think it would be better to say that Abercrombie's theme is that people are a product of their circumstances, and therefore cannot change when their circumstances are the same. We see this with everyone: Logen goes back to his old ways when he returns to the north, Jezal returns to his old ways when he comes back to a pampered life in the Union capital. And lastly, Glokta starts acting like Sult when he takes up his office.
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Aug 28, 2012 21:37
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Jezal returned to his old ways? When did that happen? Last we read of him before the Cardotti incident was Bayaz torturing him into submission after Jezal admonished him for not caring about the citizens of the Union. Also, isn't the reason Bayaz first went to Glokta instead of Sult because he had shown to be much more competent and less power-hungry? When has he acted any different as Arch Lector than how he acted before? The last thing he does is help Rews torture Sult, but he's been torturing for the entirety of the series anyway. Contra Calculus fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Aug 28, 2012 |
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Aug 28, 2012 21:52
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Yeah I agree that "returned to his old ways" is an exaggeration. Jezal ends up being one of the few characters to have a completely positive character development.
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Aug 28, 2012 21:56
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I think you're off on Glotka as well. He's the head of the Torture Squad, it's not like he can't not torture people. Sult was much worse, he would create a narrative, then have people tortured to support it. Glokta will have to do terrible things, but he will try and do good as well. Hime and Jezal even start plotting on how to work around Bayaz as much as they can, try and make some free hospitals and whatnot. I can't picture the Jezal from the first book giving two shits about free hospitals, if he became king then he wuld just bang whores all day and get drunk. I think a bett way to put his themes are"people can change only as much as their environment allows", and "wizards are dicks."
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Aug 29, 2012 01:47
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For most of the series Glokta tortures whoever he has to so that Sult doesn't kill him, but Glokta shows a disposition towards being genuinely interested in the truth. I think that given free reign Glokta would be a brutal ruler, but an effective one, and if he was going to torture people willy-nilly it would somehow benefit the realm, instead of Sult, who didn't care about the realm at all. You can see how Sult's power struggles were destabilizing the realm at a critical time.
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Aug 29, 2012 02:03
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:For most of the series Glokta tortures whoever he has to so that Sult doesn't kill him, but Glokta shows a disposition towards being genuinely interested in the truth. I think that given free reign Glokta would be a brutal ruler, but an effective one, and if he was going to torture people willy-nilly it would somehow benefit the realm, instead of Sult, who didn't care about the realm at all. You can see how Sult's power struggles were destabilizing the realm at a critical time. Glokta is also really good at figuring things out throughout the trilogy, which is something he never gives himself credit for because he's so caught up in his self-loathing.
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Aug 29, 2012 06:09
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Am I the only one that pictures Bayaz as looking like this? Once I started seeing him like that, the voice came along for the ride.
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Aug 29, 2012 06:35
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I picture Bayaz as relatively short but sturdy (remember the description of him looking like a butcher), with strong arms and small amount of iron-grey hair. I also picture that he's really tanned - that he looks like a Mediterranean person. It's probably because I went to Cyprus as a kid back in '99 and there was this one old man I remember for some reason. I ended up picturing him as Ralph Roberts in Stephen King's novel Sleepless Night or whatever it was called and apparently as Bayaz in these books. 
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Aug 29, 2012 07:23
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Heh, now I realize they never tell us where Bayaz is from. He could be a Northman for all we know. Well not that Northmen existed as they are now when he was born.
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Aug 29, 2012 14:04
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I always pictured Bayaz As Locke from Lost, but with a beard.
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Aug 29, 2012 18:38
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Above Our Own posted:Bayaz went completely catonic from the strain after using magic to defeat a small band of mercenaries I think he was acting catatonic so no one understood his true power. In LAoK he annihilates a significant portion of an entire city and a vast number of super mage warriors.
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Aug 29, 2012 19:09
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Yes by using the most potent artifact in the known world, an artifact that gods fought over and not just by his own power. And your theory about him pretending to be comatose for days has no grounding in the text.
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Aug 29, 2012 19:11
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I think it was more the strain of recovering from poo poo starting to get out of control. The floating rocks I don't think was supposed to happen. He did a lot more when he set the trees on fire, and that just made him tired.
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Aug 29, 2012 21:27
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wellwhoopdedooo posted:I think it was more the strain of recovering from poo poo starting to get out of control. The floating rocks I don't think was supposed to happen. He did a lot more when he set the trees on fire, and that just made him tired.
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Aug 29, 2012 23:50
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Those are good rationales, and even more telling is that there is nothing at all in the books which suggests that he was faking.
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Aug 30, 2012 00:01
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Above Our Own posted:Yes by using the most potent artifact in the known world, an artifact that gods fought over and not just by his own power. It's not like anyone could have just used it, though. In fact Bayaz was probably the only one that had enough power, knowledge and finesse to do that. That makes him pretty impressive. Also, Bayaz is limited by the fact that he's old and magic is not anywhere near as potent as it was during Juvens' heyday. That's why he and Khalul are relying on eaters (although I still don't think he's one himself).
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Aug 30, 2012 00:04
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UncleMonkey posted:But Logen was one of the only remaining people who could talk to the spirits Someone in the books actually asks Bayaz about this and his answer was something along the lines of he had another option. He made it seem like it wasn't an option he wanted to take though. My personal theory that has no real evidence to back it up is that Bayaz has Bedesh (Euz's other son) captive somewhere since we are never told what happened to him. We know all the other brothers have died. Edit: The idiot used salt instead of salt quenched steel. vvv Clinton1011 fucked around with this message at 00:08 on Aug 30, 2012 |
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Aug 30, 2012 00:06
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DarkCrawler posted:It's not like anyone could have just used it, though. In fact Bayaz was probably the only one that had enough power, knowledge and finesse to do that. That makes him pretty impressive.
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Aug 30, 2012 00:06
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DarkCrawler posted:...although I still don't think he's [an eater] himself Isn't there a scene in Herpes that features Bayaz eating from a corpse, though? edit: that should say "Heroes" Grand Prize Winner fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Aug 30, 2012 |
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Aug 30, 2012 03:30
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Grand Prize Winner posted:Isn't there a scene in Herpes that features Bayaz eating from a corpse, though? Using spoiler tags just to be safe: Bayaz makes it clear that he thinks the laws are silly and contradictory and he doesn't respect them. I just always got the impression that Bayaz left it to underlings to do the eating though, as if it were beneath him. If there's a scene that explicitly has him eating flesh then I'm not sure how I missed it.
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Aug 30, 2012 04:46
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UncleMonkey posted:Is there? Because if so, wow, I don't remember that at all. It's near the end, just after (Heroes spoiler again)Calder attempts to delay a peace with the Union.
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Aug 30, 2012 04:53
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Grand Prize Winner posted:It's near the end, just after (Heroes spoiler again)Calder attempts to delay a peace with the Union. I dont think he was actually eating form the corpse, might have to reread that section to make sure though. Anyways I'm pretty sure he is not an eater himself because as Shenkt mentioned in BSC, once you start it becomes an addiction and he doesnt want that liability.
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Aug 30, 2012 07:59
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Mr.48 posted:I dont think he was actually eating form the corpse, might have to reread that section to make sure though.
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Aug 30, 2012 08:07
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I thought Bayaz was eating only a meal, not from a corpse.
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Aug 30, 2012 09:58
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It's intentionally vague.
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Aug 30, 2012 10:07
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I was under the impression that Bayaz was eating meat and had tricked Calder into eating Black Dow, although he doesn't make it clear until Calder mentions dessert. Bayaz then makes some off the cuff remark along the lines of "Black Dow has it."
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Aug 30, 2012 19:12
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Beastie posted:I was under the impression that Bayaz was eating meat and had tricked Calder into eating Black Dow, although he doesn't make it clear until Calder mentions dessert. Bayaz then makes some off the cuff remark along the lines of "Black Dow has it." Also Calder never actually eats in that scene, so if Bayaz's plan was to see if Calder could become an eater then it failed.
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Aug 30, 2012 19:20
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It's intentionally vague but the scene doesn't really support the idea that Bayaz is eating human flesh. He's eating his dinner next to a mass grave, which is unsettling enough in the first place - the 'dessert' comment is implying that for 'dessert' he's going to have Calder killed, which is what Calder thinks is about to happen when he finds himself staring down at the (intact) corpse of Black Dow in the pit and is convinced that he's about to be executed to join Black Dow. Bayaz has no problem using Eaters but I don't think there's any evidence that he's an Eater himself. He's certainly never displayed any of the usual hallmarks of it.
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Aug 30, 2012 19:21
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