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Molten Llama posted:I'm not familiar with Canadian practices and code, but in the US it would be highly possible the kitchen is protected by a GFCI located outside the kitchen. Whatever the kitchen adjoins, scope out walls there for GFCIs. More like to save cost. GFCIs are expensive, while copper was probably cheap then.
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Aug 26, 2012 16:30
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kid sinister posted:More like to save cost. GFCIs are expensive, while copper was probably cheap then. It's still the same number of GFCI receptacles (3 receptacles for 3 branch circuits), they're just all installed in the garage.
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Aug 26, 2012 18:09
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Molten Llama posted:It's still the same number of GFCI receptacles (3 receptacles for 3 branch circuits), they're just all installed in the garage. That's... odd.
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Aug 26, 2012 20:19
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zergstain posted:I happen to be in Ontario, so the NEC wouldn't exactly apply. Maybe that requirement was introduced later (if at all) in the Canadian code, as well as adopted late. The allowance for GFCI was adopted somewhat recently (2006 code, maybe?). It took so long to get here because the code called for 20 amp outlets in the kitchen, with each half of the outlet coming from a different circuit. Confused the hell out of me when I first came across that. From the people I've talked to, this decision had something to do with the amount of power kitchen appliances normally draw, and the fact that 20 amp GFCIs weren't readily available. I've never had that confirmed, thoguh.
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Aug 27, 2012 01:54
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Molten Llama posted:Around here, for example, 80s/90s-era garages typically adjoin the kitchen, so it's common to have a GFCI-protected garage circuit and a GFCI-protected kitchen circuit originating in the garage. (Bizarrely, one of our bathroom GFCI circuits—which is nowhere near the garage—also originates in the garage, leading me to believe they just crammed every GFCI they could into the garage for some nebulous time-saving purpose.) In the house I'm in now, the garage GFCI handles the 2 original outside outlets (but not the ones added later). There's a GFCI in the master closet that handles the outlets in both bathrooms, and also the garden tub. The house was wired with an alarm - with the panel in the same closet. So there's actually two outlets in that closet. I guess in case you need to vacuum the closet? 
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Aug 27, 2012 03:27
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insanity74 posted:The allowance for GFCI was adopted somewhat recently (2006 code, maybe?). It took so long to get here because the code called for 20 amp outlets in the kitchen, with each half of the outlet coming from a different circuit. Confused the hell out of me when I first came across that. There's only one GFCI inside, and one outside here. The inside one is in a bathroom, and it seems to protect the outlets in the remaining bathrooms, and the outside one seems to protect the one on the opposite side of the house. Kind of annoying if one of them trips. Also, all the kitchen outlets appear to be 15 amp, was the 20 amp thing introduced after 1996? And the panel seems to have a bunch of 2-pole breakers labeled "kitchen plugs", maybe one for each receptacle. Is it likely the top outlet is wired to one pole, and the bottom to the other so that 2 high current appliances can safely be plugged in the same receptacle? How many fridges and microwaves actually have a 20 amp plug? I've never found any.
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Aug 27, 2012 22:15
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zergstain posted:There's only one GFCI inside, and one outside here. The inside one is in a bathroom, and it seems to protect the outlets in the remaining bathrooms, and the outside one seems to protect the one on the opposite side of the house. Kind of annoying if one of them trips. 15A receptacles are allowed to be installed on 20A circuits. 20A plugs are for devices that themselves need 15-20A of power. The reason for requiring the whole circuit to be 20A is due to the amount of appliances with big draws that are plugged into that circuit: fridge, microwave, blender, toaster, etc. And those probably aren't 2-pole breakers, but are tandem breakers. The only things in a kitchen that would take a 2-pole breaker are ovens and ranges.
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Aug 27, 2012 23:44
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kid sinister posted:15A receptacles are allowed to be installed on 20A circuits. 20A plugs are for devices that themselves need 15-20A of power. The reason for requiring the whole circuit to be 20A is due to the amount of appliances with big draws that are plugged into that circuit: fridge, microwave, blender, toaster, etc. None of the kitchen circuits are anything other than 15 amp, except the stove of course, unless that 15 on the breaker switches doesn't mean what I think it means. These take up 2 slots on the panel, and have 2 handles which are joined together. Am I not describing 2-pole breakers?
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Aug 28, 2012 02:02
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you are. it's weird in my experience if they are original to the house and tied together like that. current code says that 3-wire circuits (or 2 circuits that share a neutral) are required to be disconnected at the same time (so 2 20A circuits that are "tied" together so they can be shut off at the same time) but i've never seen a house from that era do it that way. could be regional though. i know around here houses from the 80s/early 90s-ish had all the bathroom plugs controlled by a GFI in the garage. and around that era up until recently it was very common to pull a 12-3 home-run to the fridge outlet and split off of it to create both kitchen appliance circuits..it still is but now it requires those to circuits to be tied together since they share a neutral..
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Aug 28, 2012 03:57
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I don't know anything about electrical work, but my friend on facebook is boasting about his handywork and cost savings on Facebook. Does anything he's doing look right or am I expecting and update from the ICU shortly? Grounding was broken in this outlet so he ran a grounding wire to the next closest outlet  Someone told him it looked like crap so he "fixed it"  He also bought a Nissan Leaf and installed the charger himself, it may or may not be related to that outlet.  quote:License Electrician wanted to charge me $400 for installation, and I did this for only $8.88 Outlet + $3.40 ground wire
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Sep 2, 2012 21:25
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Yeah, that's not legal; looking like poo poo is the least of his problems! Why doesn't he just take down the pegboard and do it right and avoid potentially ruining his car or killing himself? You can see a ground wire run into the front of the exposed box he jerry-rigged the charger to, so that's a safe bet. Please tell me he didn't replace the 15/20A breaker on the circuit with a 30A... grover fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Sep 2, 2012 |
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Sep 2, 2012 21:33
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grover posted:Yeah, that's not legal; looking like poo poo is the least of his problems! Why doesn't he just take down the pegboard and do it right and avoid potentially ruining his car or killing himself? Don't forget that if it burns his house down (a real possibility), there is now public-domain evidence that would squelch any insurance claim.
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Sep 2, 2012 21:58
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Those pictures look like they are from the "burn your house down thread " the therifixedit Jerry rig awards
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Sep 2, 2012 22:45
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I was thinking of useing Carlon blue bendable conduit for wiring some outlets in my garage, as it's easier to use then the metal conduit. Are they any rules against this? Good idea or bad idea?
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Sep 2, 2012 23:19
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Papercut posted:Don't forget that if it burns his house down (a real possibility), there is now public-domain evidence that would squelch any insurance claim. Nah...we'd pay it.
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Sep 2, 2012 23:41
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daslog posted:I was thinking of useing Carlon blue bendable conduit for wiring some outlets in my garage, as it's easier to use then the metal conduit.
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Sep 2, 2012 23:50
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yeah i agree. we tend to use smurf for in wall low voltage applications and pretty much nothing else. instead of smurf, if you can't get it in the walls, 1/2" FMC "flex" works well. it's not too much of a pain in the rear end to work with and it looks a hell of a lot better than bright blue conduit everywhere.
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Sep 3, 2012 02:58
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I just bought a house and I had an inspection done, but I think the inspector might have missed something. Im in Saskatchewan, Canada. The house was built in 1980 and has a 100A panel. The ground wire goes to a nearby internal water pipe, and then about 5m down the pipe run (over a couple of junctions) there is another clamp with a ground wire jumping the water meter to the incoming water main. Also, where the first clamp joins the internal water pipe, there is a second wire going to the incoming gas main. The gas main is not buried in the ground, it goes up through the wall from the basement to the outside meter. I didn't check, but I don't think there is a wire jumping the gas meter. The wire to the gas main is a lot shorter than the path to the water main. This seems dangerous to me, but I'm not familiar with the Canadian electrical code. Can someone advise? edit.. sp.
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Sep 3, 2012 04:16
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FCKGW posted:He also bought a Nissan Leaf and installed the charger himself, it may or may not be related to that outlet. I like how the enormous fat power cord seems to be powered by 14/2. I am surprised there's no speaker cable.
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Sep 3, 2012 04:38
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FCKGW posted:I don't know anything about electrical work, but my friend on facebook is boasting about his handywork and cost savings on Facebook. Does anything he's doing look right or am I expecting and update from the ICU shortly? How can someone look at this and be satisfied?! If you can afford a new car, you can afford an electrician for a couple hours. This is just stupidity!
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Sep 3, 2012 04:43
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dwoloz posted:How can someone look at this and be satisfied?! If you can afford a new car, you can afford an electrician for a couple hours. This is just stupidity! Little Caesars is his favorite pizza and he wears the clothes he got from his grandpa's funeral to work everyday. He's a rather thrifty fellow.
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Sep 3, 2012 05:12
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He can't afford two loving screws to fix the box to a stud, or $1.35 for a cover for the receptacle box he turned into a junction box? Some things, you just don't cut corners on. (edit) and if that's the same pegboard with the receptacle in it, then he's just lazy. Wouldn't take an hour to properly run some 12/2 behind that open wall. (edit2) then again, people like him keep me in car parts... PainterofCrap fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Sep 3, 2012 |
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Sep 3, 2012 06:15
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JimbobDobalina posted:I just bought a house and I had an inspection done, but I think the inspector might have missed something. Im in Saskatchewan, Canada. US electrician, but this grounding seems legit to me. You want your ground going straight to the water where it emerges from dirt, bonding around the water meter. You want your metal piping inside the house bonded. You don't want gas lines outside the house used as a ground path.
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Sep 3, 2012 16:01
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There is the potential for a gas line to become energized (seems slim chance but I suppose possible) and if it does, you want it to be grounded so your circuit breaker (will hopefully) trip What I wonder though is a) if an energized gas line can cause an explosion and b) how long would it need to be energized for. Also on grounding, code requires two grounds. One is usually the water and the other a ground rod
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Sep 3, 2012 17:30
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dwoloz posted:What I wonder though is a) if an energized gas line can cause an explosion and b) how long would it need to be energized for.
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Sep 3, 2012 18:12
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So I'm not totally clear on a couple of things: You say the metal pipes inside the house should be bonded, which they are, but is it ok to use them as the earth path? There is no way to ground from the panel except via the internal water pipes (or the gas pipes). I would have thought a better arrangement would be a ground wire from the panel direct to the water main, with a link to the internal pipes would be better. With the gas main bonded to earth, is this a hazard if it were to become live in a fault event? There shouldn't be arcing, right? If I we're to sink a ground rod, where is a good place to do so? Are there any regulations about how far from the panel the rod can be? Is there a special technique for burying one?
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Sep 4, 2012 04:38
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JimbobDobalina posted:So I'm not totally clear on a couple of things: Everything metal in your house should be grounded, including copper water pipes and gas lines. This is to ensure everything conductive in the house (especially when it's exposed) is at ground potential so that if there is a short circuit, it will quickly trip the breaker and not prevent a shock hazard. Code may be different for UK, though. dwoloz posted:Also on grounding, code requires two grounds. One is usually the water and the other a ground rod grover fucked around with this message at 14:08 on Sep 4, 2012 |
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Sep 4, 2012 14:06
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So a better way to wire it would be to connect the internal water and gas pipes to the panel ground, then the panel ground directly to the incoming water main?
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Sep 4, 2012 16:06
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JimbobDobalina posted:So a better way to wire it would be to connect the internal water and gas pipes to the panel ground, then the panel ground directly to the incoming water main?
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Sep 4, 2012 17:11
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When I replaced my panel here in southern New Jersey, I was required to have two 6' copper - clad rods at least six feet away from each other sunk fully into the ground and each connected separately (not in series) to the panel's ground as well as the collar between the panel and the separate 100A disconnect panel. The original ground was the 1" copper water main from the street into my house, which was deemed insufficient due to the sandy soil in my area.
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Sep 4, 2012 23:26
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grover posted:
Hm, must be a local requirement then. Inspector required two
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Sep 5, 2012 04:18
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grover posted:The main panel ground wire is called the GEC or grounding electrode conductor, and has some restrictions; it needs to be a single unbroken path directly from the ground bar in the panel to an approved type of bond with grounding electrode, and it needs to be a minimum #6 copper. The other ground wires just need to be solidly bonded to ground, but the "how" isn't quite so stringent. There are a lot of little rules and caveats, and it's difficult for us to cover them here. Thanks, the unbroken path was what I was thinking of, but didn't know the correct term. That will be a lot better than the current setup. I've got some other work to do on the panel soon, so I'll change it up then. I'm kind of surprised the inspector missed it, but I've since seen several other things he missed too. $350 not very well spent... Incidentally, is it possible for a regular person to get a copy of whatever code book is used here, and where would I find one? I've seen small homeowners guides at local hardware stores, but I'd like to get the real deal if possible.
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Sep 5, 2012 10:37
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JimbobDobalina posted:Thanks, the unbroken path was what I was thinking of, but didn't know the correct term. That will be a lot better than the current setup. I've got some other work to do on the panel soon, so I'll change it up then. I'm kind of surprised the inspector missed it, but I've since seen several other things he missed too. $350 not very well spent... http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/list_of_codes_and_standards.asp grover fucked around with this message at 10:43 on Sep 5, 2012 |
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Sep 5, 2012 10:41
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JimbobDobalina posted:Incidentally, is it possible for a regular person to get a copy of whatever code book is used here, and where would I find one? Have you tried your local library? That's a good way to get a cheap peek at the NEC here in the states.
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Sep 5, 2012 21:24
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do any of you guys who work in the field have experience with the lutron RadioRa 2 lighting controls? there is a ton of information on programming the unit but not on the actual line voltage installation of it. the guy we have contracted out to do the low voltage tried to explain it but he doesn't speak our "lingo" and i haven't seen any of the rough-in material for it yet. anyway if you have experience with it PM me, i need to pick someone's brain about it..
crocodile fucked around with this message at 04:22 on Sep 6, 2012 |
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Sep 6, 2012 03:51
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Inspector came today and told me I needed to put drywall or other protective means to cover the NM runs on the side of joists in the unfinished basement. Doesn't seem right to me but maybe Im missing something. I dont know if its worth contesting it though, it would be easy to put up a few small strips of drywall to satisfy this guy He also wanted "guards" on the sides of running boards in the crawlspace area. I dont see anything in NEC that requires this either.
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Sep 6, 2012 22:35
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dwoloz posted:Inspector came today and told me I needed to put drywall or other protective means to cover the NM runs on the side of joists in the unfinished basement. Doesn't seem right to me but maybe Im missing something. I dont know if its worth contesting it though, it would be easy to put up a few small strips of drywall to satisfy this guy
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Sep 6, 2012 23:39
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dwoloz posted:
Technically, you only need one ground rod if you can show that the resistance to ground is less than 40 Ohms. Otherwise, you need to sink another ground rod in a minimum of 6' away. However, it's far easier to to sink another ground rod and that's why a lot of inspectors will always say drive two ground rods.
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Sep 11, 2012 03:13
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I saw some bullshit on About.com that said the NEC only allows GFCI outlets in bathrooms. That can't be right, right? I wanted to wire one up on my reef tank.
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Sep 12, 2012 00:18
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revmoo posted:I saw some bullshit on About.com that said the NEC only allows GFCI outlets in bathrooms. That can't be right, right? I wanted to wire one up on my reef tank.
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Sep 12, 2012 01:07
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