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Iridium posted:Reuters says Marines are being sent to Libya for security. Good, this is an example of a valid response. I support this action by the administration.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:37
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KaneTW posted:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksverhetzung is good enough for me.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:38
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Origami Dali posted:I can't believe people in here are actually trying to square the circle of being able to keep free speech while criminalizing those who produce subversive art (however poor the quality). Free speech? Freedom is the recognition of necessity.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:38
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In case this wasn't posted here yet, as per an ingame broadcast, Obama is going to adress the press shortly: http://www.whitehouse.gov/live/president-obama-speaks-press-54
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Sep 12, 2012 15:38
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Forums Terrorist posted:If it gets people killed, yeah. That's absurd. It takes agency away from the killers.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:39
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So, Are there going to be a bunch of 'copycat' videos posted for spite/revenge? Like all the Muhammad cartoons drawn after the Danish uproar.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:39
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Fidel Castronaut posted:That's absurd. It takes agency away from the killers. I'm not saying you'd be the only person tried. Christ, why does everyone do this?
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Sep 12, 2012 15:41
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Magpie13 posted:So, Are there going to be a bunch of 'copycat' videos posted for spite/revenge? Like all the Muhammad cartoons drawn after the Danish uproar. It might be hard when the original film is already a cartoon meant to provoke people.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:41
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Arzy posted:Good, this is an example of a valid response. I support this action by the administration.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:42
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steinrokkan posted:Free speech? Freedom is the recognition of necessity. If speech were oil, this would actually make sense.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:44
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Forums Terrorist posted:I'm not saying you'd be the only person tried. Christ, why does everyone do this? I didn't say that you said that. But, there is an allotment of responsibility, and by blaming some lovely "artist," partially for the deaths, you take away some of the agency from the killers themselves. There's no way around that.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:47
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My condolences to Vilerat's family. Honestly I don't know what to do about anti-Islam morons, they seem trapped in a dangerous feedback loop with Radical Islamists. Any attempt at education is perceived as indoctrination. http://youtu.be/bRwXrcz-F9M
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Sep 12, 2012 15:47
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rscott posted:Where are the posts that you're railing against removing agency from the people who committed these crimes? Describing these murderers as a "bomb", predictably waiting to be set off by some detonation by an "irresponsible Westerner" is a completely self-evident attempt to strip agency from the people who committed the crime. It's also functionally the same (and ironic, to me) to religious fundamentalists who claim that we shouldn't discount the role of the woman in the tight niqab when dealing out responsibility for street harassment of women.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:48
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Arzy posted:Good, this is an example of a valid response. I support this action by the administration. Why would you want to provide the extremists with more targets ? There will be a suicide bomber attack within days, ending with either a bunch of dead marines or a Libyan killed by Americans. Both are a big victory for the extremists.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:48
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*pedant*Dolphin posted:The US is not Germany, freedom of speech is an important tenet of american culture, Anyway, this attribution of blame discussion isn't heading anywhere. Could we have some more info about local and general reaction, for example, rather than people talking at or past each other.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:48
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I spent all day today trying to find out the names of the other three people killed. I really wish I hadn't. RIP Sean Smith. I'm so sorry.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:48
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Forums Terrorist posted:If it gets people killed, yeah. Please don't think I'm being patronizing, but I am genuinely curious: Are you old enough to remember the Ice T single 'Cop Killa'?
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Sep 12, 2012 15:49
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Fidel Castronaut posted:I didn't say that you said that. But, there is an allotment of responsibility, and by blaming some lovely "artist," partially for the deaths, you take away some of the agency from the killers themselves. There's no way around that. Agency isn't some finite resource, you can say "the guys who killed these people are responsible, and so is the idiot who made a video to mock and degrade them."
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Sep 12, 2012 15:49
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Origami Dali posted:If speech were oil, this would actually make sense. Umm... What? Recognizing arbitrary freedom as it relates to substantial forms of human nature has nothing to do with freedom as a commodity or whatever you were trying to say.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:49
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shrike82 posted:I'd imagine that the ROE for guards must be ridiculously restrictive. Note: Everything that I type here is public knowledge, so I'm not giving anything away or violating OPSEC or whatever. When somebody joins the MSG battalion and is stationed at an embassy/consulate they are under the operational command of the State Department and not the Marine Corps. The chain of command works like this: Ambassador/Chief of Mission Deputy Chief of Mission Regional Security Officer (State Department security dude) Marine Detachment Commander (Senior Non-Com Marine commander) Marine Watch Stander (MSG, like I was) Their main mission is the protection of classified material first, and American lives second. I won't debate this, it's the way it is. We were trained from the beginning in the "escalation of force", the first being calm language and the very very last being deadly force. The majority of detachments don't have many Marines stationed there, so the main goal is to keep people out of the embassy compound, and failing that withdraw to other parts of the compound. So, to answer the question, yes the Marines stationed there have enormous restrictions on the use of deadly force, and the Marine Corps/State Department policies the poo poo out of them. Various articles that Google found for me says that there was no use of deadly force at the embassy in Cairo, but there was in the embassy at Benghazi: http://www.cnas.org/blogs/abumuqawama/2012/09/benghazi-and-diplomacys-hard-power.html
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Sep 12, 2012 15:50
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Hey idiots, "hate speech" IS free speech.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:50
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Fidel Castronaut posted:That's absurd. It takes agency away from the killers. This sounds way too much like people who respond to calls for improving social services and rationalising drugs laws to try and lower crime by responding that doing that removes all blame and responsibility from those who commit the crimes. Blame isn't a binary proposition, I can say that the mob of Islamic militants that used this as a pretext for their violent killings should all be made an example of. I can also say that fucks that made this for the express purpose of angering Muslims and hopefully garnering a violent reaction should be made a loving example of. Free speech is there to promote discourse and so people's voices can be heard, when the whole point of what someone is saying is to shut down the discourse to win their argument then frankly that's a threat to free speech because they're deliberately trying to create an atmosphere where every attempt to be involved is drowned out by the extremem on either side.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:51
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Arzy posted:Good, this is an example of a valid response. I support this action by the administration. 
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Sep 12, 2012 15:51
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Forums Terrorist posted:I'm not saying you'd be the only person tried. Christ, why does everyone do this? Because it's still an insane standard even if you also arrest the killers. Sometimes people get set off by completely benign stuff. Should Jodie Foster be imprisoned because her acting got John Hinckley Jr. obsessed enough with her to take a shot at Reagan? Should abortion supporters be jailed when their writings indirectly cause some wackjob to kill a doctor? Your standard would end free speech in a very real way.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:52
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RIP Vilerat.KaneTW posted:Oh boy, that sure is a great civil right. It is a great civil right, actually. Hate speech laws can create a chilling effect and stifle discussion of controversial but important topics. For example, this topic. It was predictable that violence would follow from the translation of this video. The lack of hate speech laws means that Americans can openly and freely discuss their opinions and analyses of the reasons that this violence was so predictable.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:53
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SolarFire2 posted:Please don't think I'm being patronizing, but I am genuinely curious: Are you old enough to remember the Ice T single 'Cop Killa'? Reading about it on wikipedia it looks like he tried to be responsible and withdraw it?
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Sep 12, 2012 15:53
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RIP Vilerat, and my condolences to his family. gently caress the ones who made the video, gently caress the rioters, and gently caress the politicians who will use this for their own ends.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:53
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Chronojam posted:Not too long ago he was talking about emergency procedures for an event like this, basically get your rear end to a safe room and secure anything secret, the marines are not there to have firefights. He was a cool guy, I hope they are wrong about this. What's the point of having marine guards if they can't gun down attacking mobs? Seems like it's just adding more potential victims.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:54
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Holy loving poo poo I go to bed and the situation gets even worse. I fear that if one more person slips up and does some stupid poo poo, things are going to spiral out of control.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:54
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Glitterbomber posted:Agency isn't some finite resource, you can say "the guys who killed these people are responsible, and so is the idiot who made a video to mock and degrade them." And yet we would never punish Ice-T (thanks SolarFire) as much as the hypothetical person that listens to Body Count and goes out and shoots a cop, and with good reason: The artist is not where the onus of blame is appropriated because the agency of the killer is first and foremost where the responsibility is attributed. Responsibility is a finite attribute, which is why civil courts actually use percentages when figuring out how to divvy up who is responsible for a car wreck, wrongful death, etc.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:56
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Arzy posted:Good, this is an example of a valid response. I support this action by the administration. Good. Hopefully the Marines being sent are very well equipped.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:56
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Forums Terrorist posted:If it gets people killed, yeah. Innocent Muslims are killed by fundamentalists for dancing and singing at parties for behavior offensive to Islam. This isn't a question of provocation; Salafist militias will actively contrive any miniscule pretense to engage in regressive purging activity in their countries.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:57
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Tardigrade posted:gently caress the ones who made the video Was the attack a Natural Consequence of posting stupid videos on the internet?
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Sep 12, 2012 15:57
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mcmagic posted:You don't want the government deciding what is and isn't hate speech. Really bad idea. It isn't the government deciding what's hate speech and what isn't though. The government suggests a law. The Bundestag (parliament) had to accept it with 2/3 majority to be part of the Grundgesetz. It's then decided by the court of laws if it is or isn't hate speech. It's not like Merkel could go and say "all dissing of Furries is now hate speech!".
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Sep 12, 2012 15:58
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Glitterbomber posted:Agency isn't some finite resource, you can say "the guys who killed these people are responsible, and so is the idiot who made a video to mock and degrade them." Surely the parents of all parties involved are at least partly responsible, why don't we go round them up too?
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Sep 12, 2012 15:59
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Scrubber posted:RIP Vilerat. Yeah I guess all that lack of discussion in countries like the UK and Germany is so chilling...
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Sep 12, 2012 15:59
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What effect will this have on Libya in the long term?
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Sep 12, 2012 15:59
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McDowell posted:My condolences to Vilerat's family. While the anti-Islam people are stupid, the Islamists are truly the ones to blame. It isn't acceptable or rational behavior to kill people when they upset your religious beliefs.
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Sep 12, 2012 16:00
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MrNemo posted:I can say that the mob of Islamic militants that used this as a pretext for their violent killings should all be made an example of. I can also say that fucks that made this for the express purpose of angering Muslims and hopefully garnering a violent reaction should be made a loving example of. How do you "make an example of" the latter exactly? What is appropriate for making a tasteless video? Again, Ice-T's "Cop Killer" was tasteless and far more overt a call for violence against others. And I do not believe that he should be held responsible for a single cop killing.
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Sep 12, 2012 16:00
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Trying to discuss this issue as one of pure speech and provocation, assuming that all the people involved are equally powerful and on a level playing field (a political theory version of a "white room fight" maybe) is pretty blinkered. The fact is that whatever proximate cause the violence had, the ultimate cause of this attack has to do with imperialism. Trying to have a discussion of the speech and reaction to it without taking into account the context of "our" frequent military misadventures (our own laughable xhosa girls) and constant attempts to dominate the region has produced a goofy and pointless discussion.
DOCTOR ZIMBARDO fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Sep 12, 2012 |
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Sep 12, 2012 16:00
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