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Labradoodle posted:Also this, a thousand times: You'd do better to distance yourself from polemical poo poo posting such as that and baseless one liners earlier in the thread, even from a purely utilitarian stance. Nothing convinces people to stand against your position more than an argument incompetently made. labradoodle posted:I'll concede that the militias aren't the deciding factor in the explosion of violent crime here. However they number over 100.000 and who governs them in truth a point of discussion, the fact is that they're government funded and armed and know that impunity reigns in Venezuela and as such they can contribute their share to terrorizing normal people. I'd be interested in any sources connecting the militias to crime rates. I'm not trying to be snarky, I'd just like to see more than anecdotes before making up my mind on the matter.
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Oct 8, 2012 20:56
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Labradoodle posted:First off I'd like to say I'm not by any stretch of the imagination an expert in economics. Capriles is honestly pretty moderate, but I think it would be less him but major political/business allies that would press for a fundamental realignment of Venezuela's social and economic infrastructure. A lot of the opposition in Venezuela is pretty hard right, and Capriles might need to make a lot of compromises to stay in power. How many politicians (not just in the US) say social programs are important but eventually that "hard choices" need to be made when they come to power? I open to believe Capriles as an individual probably believes what he is saying, but from my perspective I don't see the political environment allowing him to take a moderate centrist tact for very long.
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Oct 8, 2012 20:57
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Labradoodle posted:As for privatization, I can't say for certain. But his election would've served to reduce fear of international investment in Venezuela, which has fallen to an all time low due to fear of expropiation with no legal recourse and lack of access to dollars from within the country for the purchase of necessities, which has sunk a lot of businesses or made them turn to the black market. This makes Capriles look like he's running a show for international investors, rather than for the country itself. International investment doesn't come without strings and isn't categorically good, or categorically bad, for a country. I don't know about the economic situation of Venezuela in detail, but if you need actual dollars (and not just money) to buy necessities, that points to a pretty imbalanced economy built on colonialism that can't survive without importing goods made in dollar-using countries. Getting rid of that dependence should be a priority for a nation's economic independence, although from what you're describing that step is proving painful. I'm not arguing against all imports here, just import of the necessary capital goods you've described, whatever they may be. Labradoodle posted:But both sides are at fault here, most of Chavez supporters drink the kool aid as well and equate us with Pro-American, CIA infiltrates, rich bankers, when the truth is we simply want an alternative. If you simply want an alternative, why not vote for more leftist-leaning socialists rather than a right-winger? I'm sure there's third parties more radical than Chavez, who doesn't pander to investor and bankers that you can vote for. Why did you choose the specific alternative of Capriles? (Also why 'Capriles'? People can choose from Henrique, Capriles, or Radonski, but most of the media I've read use Capriles) I view Capriles as a right winger simply because his constituents include the opposition that already tried a coup in 2002. If Capriles obtained power they wouldn't have a problem pushing him to their bidding, if they were willing to use force to get what they wanted ten years earlier. All they would have to do is another Galt-style executive-level strike for businesses and the moderate leadership would crumble to their demands. PrezCamachoo posted:You have a president who views Cuba, Iran, Syria, and Belarus as model nations and an opposition candidate who views Chile, Cosa Rica, and Brazil as models. This makes no sense whatsoever. How is the Bolivarian revolution is based off of Islamic theocracy? How can one person view all four countries as models and not run into complete contradictions? Also, how is ALBA, Chavez's super axis of socialism, doing? I imagined if Capriles were in power ALBA would be dissolved immediately. I haven't heard much about the alliance in the news so it might not really be doing anything worth dissolving in the first place. I was hoping it would become something in the future, maybe a counterweight to OAS, and this election was endangering that.
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Oct 8, 2012 21:13
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Hugoon Chavez posted:I'm not going to keep discussing this since obviously whatever I say will be "refuted" with wikipedia articles (even if I actually lived trough everything I speak of), so I'll stick clear of d&d, but I leave you with this: Is it reasonable and democratic to have one guy governing and leading a country for 12 years? He isn't "the president of Venezuela" anymore, Venezuela is His country. I don't have any particular stake in your country's elections but I honestly as a Canadian have no understanding as to whats wrong with a country releecting the same person over and over so long as they feel like it; in Canada Pierre Eliot Trudeau served as Prime Minister for 15 years in total. How does not having term limits, a tradition mostly born out from Washington pulling a Cincinatus, make a country undemocratic?
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Oct 8, 2012 21:17
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Raenir Salazar posted:I don't have any particular stake in your country's elections but I honestly as a Canadian have no understanding as to whats wrong with a country releecting the same person over and over so long as they feel like it; in Canada Pierre Eliot Trudeau served as Prime Minister for 15 years in total. How does not having term limits, a tradition mostly born out from Washington pulling a Cincinatus, make a country undemocratic? Speaking as another Canadian, it can and oftentimes does enable greater levels of corruption and outright laziness.
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Oct 8, 2012 21:20
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So does anybody here have any details about this secret paramilitary army Chavez is running?
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Oct 8, 2012 21:30
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Authorman posted:You have to be chugging the kool aid pretty loving hard if you think pro-chavez groups account for a doubling of the murder rate over the course of a decade. It's funny you bring up drugs as the cause of the murder rate skyrocketing. Perhaps if Chavez didn't give impunity to groups like FARC, ELN, etc to operate, there would be less violent crime. Or having his generals collaborate with giant drug cartels. If you want to pin this on drugs (which is fair), lets look at the person who shelters them as long as they support his regime. I'm told it's poverty that helps fuel high crime rates. Now you're claiming it's ending poverty which is causing high crime rates. Wish people would make up their minds.
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Oct 8, 2012 21:31
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Authorman posted:You'd do better to distance yourself from polemical poo poo posting such as that and baseless one liners earlier in the thread, even from a purely utilitarian stance. Nothing convinces people to stand against your position more than an argument incompetently made. Fair enough, on the first point I admit it's a gag reaction. It's a sore point since most members of the opposition resent our alliance with Cuba, since it's fairly one sided and the Castros are seen as having too big an influence on Chavez's policies. In the case of the militias -which are commonly known as colectivos-, I haven't yet seen any news source connecting them directly to increasing crime rates, but you can do your own research, for example, "Tupamaros" and "Colectivo la Piedrita" are two of the main ones or at least the most publicized. Keep in mind however that crime reports in Venezuela are very ambivalent, the government stopped publishing official murder rates around three years ago if I remember correctly, but they broke the silence once last year and made a report that everyone considers ridiculously low. When crimes are covered, it's mostly the most showy ones, such as kidnappings, which are seldom reported in the first place and murders commited within the "barrios" are commonly tagged simply as "ajustes de cuentas", which is basically to say "the guy had it coming". I don't pretend to say they're the main problem as far as violence is concerned and perhaps my view is more polarized because I live in the capital, which is supposed to be the most violent place of the country and we're most of these "colectivos" make their living. quote:This makes Capriles look like he's running a show for international investors, rather than for the country itself. International investment doesn't come without strings and isn't categorically good, or categorically bad, for a country. I don't know about the economic situation of Venezuela in detail, but if you need actual dollars (and not just money) to buy necessities, that points to a pretty imbalanced economy built on colonialism that can't survive without importing goods made in dollar-using countries. Getting rid of that dependence should be a priority for a nation's economic independence, although from what you're describing that step is proving painful. I'm not arguing against all imports here, just import of the necessary capital goods you've described, whatever they may be. For certain imports they're necessary and a normal person is limited yearly in the ammount of dollars they can spend using their credit cards or cash, at least at the official government rates. quote:If you simply want an alternative, why not vote for more leftist-leaning socialists rather than a right-winger? I'm sure there's third parties more radical than Chavez, who doesn't pander to investor and bankers that you can vote for. Why did you choose the specific alternative of Capriles? (Also why 'Capriles'? People can choose from Henrique, Capriles, or Radonski, but most of the media I've read use Capriles) It's not a problem as much about political leanings as it is about perceptions, any candidate that runs against Chavez is inmediately dismissed as being a member of the "opposition" parties or extremely right-wing independently of what he says, he could be Chavez lite but he'd be labeled as a sellout. I do agree that Capriles would be more more apt to get pushed around, but then again, anyone that succeeds Chavez would be considered as such. I know I'm coming off as a huge fan of his that doesn't find any faults in his agenda, but you have to understand, the main point of his campaign was to reunite a country fraught with political division , reduce violence, repair a crumbling infraestructure of basic services and turn this again into a place were one could actually try to make an honest living without fear. I honestly do believe he is better equipped to be a President than Chavez, but that may be simply my disdain for having an uneducated violent man in charge of my country. Right now politics here isn't as much about politics as it is about emotion and the level of discourse here sets the bar really low. Borneo Jimmy posted:So does anybody here have any details about this secret paramilitary army Chavez is running? They aren't secret by any stretch of the imagination, google some of the names I mentioned earlier on this post, there are an estimated of around 10 different "colectivos" operating at the moment, but those are the ones everyone knows. I wouldn't go as far as to say he runs them, but they are funded and armed by the government, to preserve peace and secure the bolivarian revolution as they say. Here is an article for example with a short interview with the "leader" of the Tupamaros done by ABC Spain, http://www.kmbz.com/Venezuela-Radical-Group-Promises-Violence-if-Ch-ve/14453917 the original in spanish can be found here http://www.abc.es/20121004/internacional/abci-plomo-chavez-capriles-201210041155.html Chavez doesn't spouse the violence directly, but he doesn't need to, these guys are married to his process. Labradoodle fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Oct 8, 2012 |
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Oct 8, 2012 21:42
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Niwrad posted:Perhaps if Chavez didn't give impunity to groups like FARC, ELN, etc to operate, there would be less violent crime. Or having his generals collaborate with giant drug cartels. If you want to pin this on drugs (which is fair), lets look at the person who shelters them as long as they support his regime.
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Oct 8, 2012 21:42
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Raenir Salazar posted:I don't have any particular stake in your country's elections but I honestly as a Canadian have no understanding as to whats wrong with a country releecting the same person over and over so long as they feel like it; in Canada Pierre Eliot Trudeau served as Prime Minister for 15 years in total. How does not having term limits, a tradition mostly born out from Washington pulling a Cincinatus, make a country undemocratic? I don't think there is anything wrong with it. I think the concerns come from the lack of free press, speech, possible intimidation, and a fear of civil unrest in voting for change. The question is whether the people are truly getting what they want and participating in a truly democratic process. Similar questions are asked over the world. I know in my country there is talk of the Citizens United ruling and voter purges poisoning the democratic process. Just as people will ask the same for a country that stifles free speech/press like Venezuela.
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Oct 8, 2012 21:43
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a bad enough dude posted:I advise everyone watch The Revolution Will Not Be Televised, it's a great documentary on the coup. People still believe TRWNBT, 10 years on? That just makes me sad, honestly. Hell, the movie presents such an outlandish, black and white version of events that not even the Venezuelan government agrees with it. Let's just start here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id--ZFtjR5c&t=1995s The movie shows the now iconic images of Chavista gunmen on Puente Llaguno shooting at targets we can't see. According to TRWNBT, these images were used by the Venezuelan opposition to unfairly implicate Chávez and his supporters of murdering unarmed demonstrators: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised posted:What the TV stations didn't broadcast, was this camera angle, which clearly shows that the streets below were empty. Let's stop right here and watch this short video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNWRM1L0Uo0 The guy with the red cap is Mario Silva, who hosts a programme on Venuezelan State TV and is one of the most uncoditional supporters of Hugo Chávez on VTV ( which, trust me, is saying a hell of a lot ). The video shows the same camera angle which according to TRWNBT was never broadcast on TV, that is, Puente Llaguno looking south along Avenida Baralt. Unlike the footage in TRWNBT, however, this video goes on for several minutes, and we can clearly see a police car on Avenida Baralt advancing towards the Chavistas on / under Puente Llaguno. In fact, according to Mario Silva, the opposition attempted to cover up that the Chavistas on Pte. Llaguno were defending themselves from the Policía Metropolitana down below. The official report on the events of April 2002 by the Venezuelan Ombudsman's of Human Rights also shows the PM on Avda. Baralt advancing towards Puente Llaguno:  In conclusion, even if you are dead set on dismissing anyone and anything but unconditional Chávez supporters, offical government reports and what you can see with your own eyes; TRWNWT's claim that "the streets below was empty" can be shown to be a lie. Incidentally, do you see the green dots further towards the south? Those are opposition demonstrators, but, according to TRWNT: quote:The opposition march had never taken that route. Two sentences, two massive lies in the space of a couple seconds. That last one actually makes me angry because it is such an incredible slap in the face of the people who died there and their families:  It's one thing to blame their deaths on your political opponents or exploit them for political gain, but to have the goddamn audacity to claim "Oh well, Jesús Arellano can't have bled out onto the asphalt of Avenida Baralt, after all, he was never there in the first place  "just makes me speechless. PS: By the way, I don't trust Mario Silva any farther than I could throw him and I certainly think the official report I linked should be taken with a grain of salt. I limited myself to Chavista sources to make my point just so Chavista cheerleaders couldn't glibly dismiss them as biased / right-wing / fascist / whatever. beer_war fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Oct 8, 2012 |
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Oct 8, 2012 21:47
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Except the only media outlet shut down in Venezuela was the one channel that actively supported the coup, while channels like Globovisión are devoted 100% to sabotaging Chavez in ways that make Obama's treatment by FOX look fair and balanced.
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Oct 8, 2012 21:48
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Labradoodle posted:I wouldn't go as far as to say he runs them, but they are funded and armed by the government, to preserve peace and secure the bolivarian revolution as they say. I think that's pretty understandable given that wealthy landowners have been using Colombian paramilitaries to kill Chavez supporters trying to implement land reform http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2011/11/201111810548458225.html
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Oct 8, 2012 21:49
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Borneo Jimmy posted:Can you give proof of this, because every story about Chavez working with FARC or Hezbollah always comes some "anonymous source" or from the American state department, who of course would never have any ulterior motives or would lie about those sort of things. I don't think those are the only places it comes from. Colombia has for years alleged the ties. There was the seized files a little while back. But outside of Chavez admitting it on live television, his supporters won't believe it and will claim that any evidence showing otherwise was part of the big imperialist plot to take him down.
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Oct 8, 2012 21:58
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So you are withdrawing thisNiwrad posted:I think arming and/or supporting a bunch of pro-Chavez groups while giving them impunity can lead to higher crime. The country makes no effort to stop violent crime when it comes to government supporters. They've even turned over large swaths of the country to them to do as they please. Correct? You are admitting that that little bit of garbage you pulled out of nowhere is complete and total bullshit by not even attempting to substantiate it. You don't get to spout new nonsense without addressing the previous bit first. Labradoodle posted:In the case of the militias -which are commonly known as colectivos-, I haven't yet seen any news source connecting them directly to increasing crime rates, but you can do your own research, I'm not the one claiming they have something to do with the increased murder rate, so no I don't have to do Niwrad's research for him. Also without any kind of material beyond the fact they exist I can't accept connections between them and increased crime.
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Oct 8, 2012 21:59
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Niwrad posted:I don't think those are the only places it comes from. Colombia has for years alleged the ties. There was the seized files a little while back. But outside of Chavez admitting it on live television, his supporters won't believe it and will claim that any evidence showing otherwise was part of the big imperialist plot to take him down. Oh you mean that laptop, the one that was conveniently found perfectly intact after a massive military raid? The same one that was thrown out as evidence by Colombian courts when Uribe was using it to prosecute his political enemies for collaborating with guerrillas? http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/47649 quote:Furthermore, “the validity of the content of what was found on the computers can also not be verified as the alleged emails were copied into Word documents without indication of sender or receiver, the country's highest court said”.
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Oct 8, 2012 22:06
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PT6A posted:Speaking as another Canadian, it can and oftentimes does enable greater levels of corruption and outright laziness. But then the opposition parties should be able to oust the ruling party; they shouldn't need hand holdings if they can't field a sufficiently charismatic candidate. quote:I don't think there is anything wrong with it. I think the concerns come from the lack of free press, speech, possible intimidation, and a fear of civil unrest in voting for change. The question is whether the people are truly getting what they want and participating in a truly democratic process. But that really wasn't what was said, that may be a more reasonable and nuanced argument but what was said "He ruled for 12 years how can it be democratic?"
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Oct 8, 2012 22:07
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Niwrad posted:I'm told it's poverty that helps fuel high crime rates. Now you're claiming it's ending poverty which is causing high crime rates. Wish people would make up their minds. Well, since poverty has been objectively cut to a third of what it was during Chavez's presidency, I'm sure you understand that poverty is not fueling high crime rate. It's not people being wishy-washy as you're making it out to be, it's people theorizing on the cause of crime and then proven wrong because of data. We're just trying to figure out on what the cause of the crime spike is. Niwrad posted:The question is whether the people are truly getting what they want and participating in a truly democratic process. If you're willing to read a big technical report, here's The Carter Center's report on the 2006 Venezuelan elections (PDF link; I haven't found a source for 2012). It's mostly about voting machines and how secure they are. Their conclusion is that The Carter Center posted:While these incidents do not prove that any manipulation occurred, they do show that it is theoretically possible. To correct this problem, physical 'these incidents' referring to user error where authorities sealed the boxes but put their tamper-proof signatures on the wrong side of the box by mistake. That's the most severe case the study's cited. Labradoodle posted:For certain imports they're necessary and a normal person is limited yearly in the ammount of dollars they can spend using their credit cards or cash, at least at the official government rates. This is interesting. What kind of necessities do you want to buy that needs to be bought in dollars? I'm genuinely interested, because if the average Venezuelan can't get by in their life without spending dollars, instead of bolivares, then that's pretty bad news for the Venezuelan economy.
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Oct 8, 2012 22:10
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Authorman posted:Correct? You are admitting that that little bit of garbage you pulled out of nowhere is complete and total bullshit by not even attempting to substantiate it. Well I just posted evidence of his connections. And the fact that 91% of all murders go unsolved is good evidence that they don't put much effort into stopping it. This piece from Open Democracy sheds more light on that. There was also a high profile Judge Eladio Aponte who essentially called the Venezuelan justice system a fraud (which others who lived there in this thread have mentioned). But you're asking for proof with the knowledge that any proof is part of the imperialistic plot to take him down. There is nothing that can be shown that you would find credible. Why go through the charade pretending like you'd view anything objectively?
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Oct 8, 2012 22:15
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flatbus posted:If you're willing to read a big technical report, here's The Carter Center's report on the 2006 Venezuelan elections (PDF link; I haven't found a source for 2012). It's mostly about voting machines and how secure they are. Their conclusion is that Thanks for the link. I wasn't talking about voting machines or fraud. I was more talking about the system they have. Similar to how some in the United States question how democratic our system is when money can play such a vital role. I think it's fair to question how democratic their system is when the ruling party can force the press to spread propaganda on their outlets (among other things). I'm not saying that Chavez would not have been elected without it, but we can ask whether the lack of free press plays a role in their elections. Just as we ask whether money plays a role in elections in the United States. There are external factors that impact how we vote.
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Oct 8, 2012 22:19
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Oct 8, 2012 22:22
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Niwrad posted:Thanks for the link. I wasn't talking about voting machines or fraud. I was more talking about the system they have. Similar to how some in the United States question how democratic our system is when money can play such a vital role. I think it's fair to question how democratic their system is when the ruling party can force the press to spread propaganda on their outlets (among other things). I'm not saying that Chavez would not have been elected without it, but we can ask whether the lack of free press plays a role in their elections. Just as we ask whether money plays a role in elections in the United States. There are external factors that impact how we vote. I fail to understand why Venezuelan press is particularly unfree. There are, uncontestedly in this thread, plural media outlets more or less entirely and openly hating Chavez' guts on air. One of these outlets got closed down for supporting an attempted military coup. This is not unreasonable restriction of the press, and any bourgeois regime would do the same given the circumstances.
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Oct 8, 2012 22:26
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Niwrad posted:Well I just posted evidence of his connections. And the fact that 91% of all murders go unsolved is good evidence that they don't put much effort into stopping it. This piece from Open Democracy sheds more light on that. There was also a high profile Judge Eladio Aponte who essentially called the Venezuelan justice system a fraud (which others who lived there in this thread have mentioned). All of these things predate Chavez by a number of decades and yes, police and judicial corruption are another reason why crime rates are so high. The fact that Chavez hasn't done enough to fight this is a widely accepted fact by everyone, including Chavez supporters in this thread. You are the only one claiming that Chavez specifically caused it. Also I can't believe the magic laptop is still being passed around as evidence of anything. Niward posted:But you're asking for proof with the knowledge that any proof is part of the imperialistic plot to take him down. There is nothing that can be shown that you would find credible. Why go through the charade pretending like you'd view anything objectively? Because I'm not a Chavez supporter and wouldn't have even posted were it not for you making up nonsense about crime figures. But do drag it back to polemicals, it must be far easier playing red team blue team than actually rubbing two brain cells together.
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Oct 8, 2012 22:28
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Authorman posted:All of these things predate Chavez by a number of decades and yes, police and judicial corruption are another reason why crime rates are so high. The fact that Chavez hasn't done enough to fight this is a widely accepted fact by everyone, including Chavez supporters in this thread. None of the stuff I've posted predates Chavez. You asked for evidence and you got it. Now you're trying to backtrack. Or pretend everything is a big imperialist conspiracy. I have no team. I think Chavez has done good things for some in the country and has done bad things as well. I'm not the one jumping through hoops trying to downplay all those negatives. I don't believe in giving free passes just because he pretends to fight the evil Americans. It's you who can't look at him objectively.
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Oct 8, 2012 22:45
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V. Illych L. posted:I fail to understand why Venezuelan press is particularly unfree. There are, uncontestedly in this thread, plural media outlets more or less entirely and openly hating Chavez' guts on air. There is a lot more to it than one outlet getting closed down for supporting a military coup. The CPJ has an extensive list of stories regarding Venezuela an their attack on freedom of press. Freedom House has their annual reports that says they still do not have free press (and getting worse). Reports without Borders has them ranked near the bottom in their rankings. And the IFJ has been highly critical of them over the years. This goes much deeper than a minor dust-up with one outlet.
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Oct 8, 2012 22:53
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Niwrad posted:None of the stuff I've posted predates Chavez. Yes it does. Do you believe that there was no police and judicial corruption during the decades of military dictatorship? Are you really that far gone? niwrad posted:Or pretend everything is a big imperialist conspiracy. Reminder that this started when you asserted that Chavistas accounted for the doubling of the murder rate over the course of a decade. The only one reaching into conspiracy theory territory here is you, my friend. Don't cite freedom house and expect to be taken seriously.
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Oct 8, 2012 23:07
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Authorman posted:Yes it does. Do you believe that there was no police and judicial corruption during the decades of military dictatorship? Are you really that far gone? So if police and judicial corruption existed in the past, current leaders cannot be criticized for it continuing or increasing during their regime. Does this extend to everyone or just leaders you are want to give cover to? Authorman posted:Reminder that this started when you asserted that Chavistas accounted for the doubling of the murder rate over the course of a decade. The only one reaching into conspiracy theory territory here is you, my friend. I didn't say they accounted for it doubling, you did. I said his actions have made violence worse and given supporters of him impunity to commit crimes without repercussions. You claimed crime rose because people had more money to buy drugs (which is typically not what you see when poverty decreases). I pointed out that Chavez has worked with and supported groups that traffic drugs. Authorman posted:Don't cite freedom house and expect to be taken seriously. Use the other 3 groups if it makes you feel better. They all have the similar grievances.
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Oct 8, 2012 23:23
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Borneo Jimmy posted:So does anybody here have any details about this secret paramilitary army Chavez is running? http://www.interviu.es/reportajes/articulos/los-legionarios-de-chavez http://impactocna.com/2012/04/29/el-barzo-armado-de-la-revolucion-chavista/ A friend of mine participated in an opposition rally at his university when a group of these guys came out of nowhere on motorbikes and attacked them. If you search around, you should be able to find some pictures of these guys driving around on bikes while flashing pistols. I know a bunch of photos exist because he's sent them to me.
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Oct 8, 2012 23:24
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Omi-Polari posted:Here's some more links: These look like right-wing tabloids. They're also in Spanish, so most of this forum can't read them. All in all this isn't remotely compelling.
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Oct 9, 2012 02:09
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intervieu posted:Las acciones violentas de los ultras se intensificaron durante las semanas que precedieron al referéndum. Y fueron de tal intensidad que Chávez se vio obligado a ordenar la detención del líder de La Piedrita, Valentín Santana. Chavez is trying to arrest the leader of one of Chavez's secret militias. That's some 11th dimensional chess there.
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Oct 9, 2012 02:13
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Borneo Jimmy posted:Oh you mean that laptop, the one that was conveniently found perfectly intact after a massive military raid? The same one that was thrown out as evidence by Colombian courts when Uribe was using it to prosecute his political enemies for collaborating with guerrillas? I never post but as a Colombian I feel compelled to respond to this. The information contained in the laptop was not altered by the Colombian government, as the Interpol certified. Several things stated in documents in the laptop were later verified (I found links but all are in Spanish). There were many gigabytes of information in the hard drive and you'd have to be pretty crazy to believe it was a fabrication. Just out of curiosity, look at these photos from the laptop: http://www.semana.com/foto-nacion/fotos-del-computador-raul-reyes/254.aspx Even if the soldiers hadn't found the laptop, it's clear where Chavez's allegiances lie. In the days after the attack Chavez condemned Colombia for attacking the FARC, saying they were a true, brave army (or something to that effect), and even holding a minute of silence for the guerilla commanders killed. Some FARC commanders have taken refuge in Venezuela, where they are under protection of the army / government. This is nauseatinb because it invalidates the efforts of my country's army to rid us of the FARC terrorists. All of this is also common knowledge. Chavez has also supported Gadaffi and Al Assad publicly, or via his controlled media. They have even given special treatment to North Korea in the media (see Telesur). Think about what kind of statesman does that. Also it has been said before but please do not project American politics and culture in an effort to understand this. And please don't quote leftist websites in English, they are likely very biased and / or are written by naive first-worlders who just don't understand our countries. Sorry for my English, I almost never communicate in a language other than Spanish.
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Oct 9, 2012 03:05
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Thug Lessons posted:These look like right-wing tabloids. They're also in Spanish, so most of this forum can't read them. All in all this isn't remotely compelling. Interviú is little more than a glorified tabloid (from Spain). The other site is definitely biased (almost exclusively devoted to Venezuelan opposition articles) but at least it doesn't sell chiefly by showcasing nude pics of celebrities and exposés on loving welfare queen moors and romanians as Interviú does.
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Oct 9, 2012 03:09
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Thug Lessons posted:These look like right-wing tabloids. They're also in Spanish, so most of this forum can't read them. All in all this isn't remotely compelling. http://news.yahoo.com/pro-chavez-gangs-tolerated-rule-turf-venezuela-122301808.html In the video below, you can see the biker gangs in action, including what looks like them brandishing shotguns and clubs while busting up an opposition rally of what looks like students and middle-aged women: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoOGTSfuxKk Amarkov posted:Chavez is trying to arrest the leader of one of Chavez's secret militias. That's some 11th dimensional chess there. To complicate the picture: quote:[One militia member] said the area is safer than other poor parts of Caracas, which routinely records scores of murders each weekend, despite having seen almost no government security forces for nearly a decade. quote:Also contributing to the sense that the collectives have become particularly combative this year are various media reports that the groups are behind several outbreaks of violence. In March, the murder of two young men in one section of 23 de Enero reportedly provoked La Piedrita to storm a neighborhood, setting vehicles on fire and firing gunshots. The group later strongly criticized media reports that described the confrontation as a “war” between neighborhood collectives. According to El Universal, La Piedrita blamed the murders on “narco-paramilitaries” who ambushed the two victims. More recently, unnamed local residents claimed the conflict broke out because La Piedrita is trying to assert its control over a rival collective’s territory, El Universal reported. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 05:11 on Oct 9, 2012 |
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Oct 9, 2012 03:22
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Those guys are awesome.
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Oct 9, 2012 03:42
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Tony_Montana posted:Also it has been said before but please do not project American politics and culture in an effort to understand this. And please don't quote leftist websites in English, they are likely very biased and / or are written by naive first-worlders who just don't understand our countries. I don't know what you mean by projecting American politics and culture, also I'm not fluent in Spanish and most of the posters here aren't either, which English language websites truly understand Colombia and Venezuela? Also that article did quote a Colombian newspaper.
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Oct 9, 2012 04:57
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Omi-Polari posted:To complicate the picture: That's interesting. An almost Leninist level of militant, civilian, policing and organization. Arm the poor, etc etc.
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Oct 10, 2012 00:01
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Borneo Jimmy posted:I don't know what you mean by projecting American politics and culture, also I'm not fluent in Spanish and most of the posters here aren't either, which English language websites truly understand Colombia and Venezuela? I mean when people says such as "Obama has a cult of personality, just as Chavez", or "This is similar to the propaganda in Fox News". Things are quantitatively and qualitatively very different. As for websites, honestly most things I see in other languages are strange, exaggerated or biased. Wikipedia in English seems fine (yeah seriously). For example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FARC_files
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Oct 10, 2012 00:54
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Omi-Polari posted:That's fair. But the same information is in this AP article: This appears to be about something entirely different from what the original question refers to. The "paramilitary army" he's referring to is no doubt the Bolivarian Militia, the paramilitary organization Chavez created in 2008 that reports directly to the executive branch rather than to the National Armed Forces. The Bolivarian Militia is actually referenced in this article, but only in passing. That's obviously an actual military organization reporting to Chavez, (though hardly a 'secret' one, let alone one capable of challenging the power of the actual military), whereas the most journalists can apparently say about these gangs is that Chavez tolerates them, while underlining that there's no evidence they're receiving arms, training or direction from the government.
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Oct 10, 2012 01:15
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I've met members of collectivos and they've had nothing but negative things to say about interference from the federal government and police (raids, arrests, etc) but are still very supportive of Chavez because he ensures that there won't be full-scale repression against them. It should be noted that while I do have problems with the somewhat vigilante nature collectivos they do seem to be far, far better than the incredibly corrupt and violent metro police that they've replaced in 23 de Enero. To act like they answer to Chavez's every beck and call is absolute bullshit, though.
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Oct 10, 2012 22:45
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http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/10/opinion/why-chavez-was-re-elected.html?_r=1"e:Then there is the other side of the story: Since the Chávez government got control over the national oil industry, poverty has been cut by half, and extreme poverty by 70 percent. College enrollment has more than doubled, millions of people have access to health care for the first time and the number of people eligible for public pensions has quadrupled.
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Oct 10, 2012 23:28
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