Baby Huey Newton posted:

and some analysis of the current situation:

http://www.voltairenet.org/article172526.html
http://www.voltairenet.org/article170005.html

Anyone who thinks Assange and wikileaks aren't important, the most important documents on the situation were leaked. Do you think the Iraq invasion and WMD propaganda would have happened if Wikileaks existed?

Deteriorata posted:

Norway is a founding member of NATO, which makes them thoroughly first world. These are terms left over from the Cold War. First World was the countries allied or aligned with the Western powers, Second World was the countries allied or aligned with the Soviet Union, and Third World was everybody else - who generally got trampled underfoot in proxy wars sponsored by the First and Second worlds.

Brown Moses posted:

Here's what I was talking about early, Dam Spleeters and CJ Chivers have found videos of SA-7s actually being used in Syria, a big development in the oppositions air war.

Brown Moses posted:

Here's Thierry Meyssan during happier times, with his friend Manaf Tlass, and members of the French far right Dieudonné M'bala M'bala and Frédéric Chatillon

Baby Huey Newton posted:

Is this supposed to be a joke? Thierry Mayssan was one of the central members of the National Committee of Surveillance which was a leader in anti-fascist coordination in France in the 90s when the FN was at its peak. What a remarkable slander...

Baby Huey Newton posted:

Is this supposed to be a joke? Thierry Mayssan was one of the central members of the National Committee of Surveillance which was a leader in anti-fascist coordination in France in the 90s when the FN was at its peak. What a remarkable slander...

Baby Huey Newton posted:

I would direct you in order to see the wikileaks documents showing the planning of the Libya and Syrian invasions:

Mans posted:

It's amazing how all these guys are all fourth international and poo poo.

I'm sure Trotsky would be happy with all his followers denouncing popular uprisings as imperialist scum and how crushing popular revolts is the only way to fight imperialism.

Friendly Factory posted:

This doesn't say anything about the Libyan revolutionaries being imperialist plants. It say the US is trying to take advantage of their having exerted their free will. No one here will deny the US does poo poo like this. But the Libyans rebelled because Gaddafi was a horrible dictator that sucked the life out of their country and they wanted their freedom back. Imperialism had nothing to do with their rebellion. At worst the US tries to install a new dictator in Libya that would be on their side again. But how did that work out, considering Libya democratically elected a national representative (and their new Prime Minister is left-focused and not right-focused)? It's not that imperial powers don't try to install leaders that will benefit them, it's that in contemporary times these attempts are almost universally failures.

quote:

25. On being assigned to their zones and starting work, the observers witnessed acts of violence
perpetrated by Government forces and an exchange of gunfire with armed elements in Homs and Hama. As a
result of the Mission’s insistence on a complete end to violence and the withdrawal of Army vehicles and
equipment, this problem has receded. The most recent reports of the Mission point to a considerable calming of
the situation and restraint on the part of those forces.

26. In Homs and Dera‘a, the Mission observed armed groups committing acts of violence against
Government forces, resulting in death and injury among their ranks. In certain situations, Government forces
responded to attacks against their personnel with force. The observers noted that some of the armed groups
were using flares and armour-piercing projectiles.

27. In Homs, Idlib and Hama, the Observer Mission witnessed acts of violence being committed against
Government forces and civilians that resulted in several deaths and injuries. Examples of those acts include the
bombing of a civilian bus, killing eight persons and injuring others, including women and children, and the
bombing of a train carrying diesel oil. In another incident in Homs, a police bus was blown up, killing two
police officers. A fuel pipeline and some small bridges were also bombed.

28. The Mission noted that many parties falsely reported that explosions or violence had occurred in
several locations. When the observers went to those locations, they found that those reports were unfounded.

29. The Mission also noted that, according to its teams in the field, the media exaggerated the nature of the
incidents and the number of persons killed in incidents and protests in certain towns.

quote:

In Homs, a French journalist who worked for the France 2 channel was killed and a Belgian journalist
was injured. The Government and opposition accused each other of being responsible for the incident, and both
sides issued statements of condemnation. The Government formed an investigative committee in order to
determine the cause of the incident. It should be noted that Mission reports from Homs indicate that the French
journalist was killed by opposition mortar shells.

quote:

In some cities, the Mission sensed the extreme tension, oppression and injustice from which the Syrian
people are suffering. However, the citizens believe the crisis should be resolved peacefully through Arab
mediation alone, without international intervention. Doing so would allow them to live in peace and complete
the reform process and bring about the change they desire.

Baby Huey Newton posted:

I would direct you in order to see the wikileaks documents showing the planning of the Libya and Syrian invasions:

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/jul2011/wiki-j27.shtml

Killer robot posted:

They're not real popular revolts, you see.

The far left loves No True Scotsman even more than the far right loves the Slippery Slope.

Rent-A-Cop posted:

Planning, war-gaming, and re-planning conflicts that will never happen is what a significant portion of the US military spends all of its time doing. Somewhere there's a plan to invade Canada filed next to a plan to defend Vermont from cross-border raids by violent Quebecois separatists.

Baby Huey Newton posted:

Killer robot posted:

They're not real popular revolts, you see.

The far left loves No True Scotsman even more than the far right loves the Slippery Slope.

Brown Moses posted:

Not a joke, Thierry Meyssan pals around with the far right, they took a nice trip to Syria together in 2008 funded by the Tlass family. Chatillon would go on to found the pro-Assad InfoSyrie website and we all know what Thierry got up to with the Voltaire Network.

[edit] Not forgetting the same group visiting Lebanon with the same group in 2006

Baby Huey Newton posted:

http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2012/08/libyan-terrorists-are-invading-syria.html
http://www.voltairenet.org/article172163.html

Please educate yourself, this exact scenario happened in the leadup to the Iraq and Afghanistan wars and the only result of that ignorance is millions of deaths, a whole region razed, and further imperialist ambitions in the rest of the Middle East. It's our responsibility to stop the war at home through education and not misinformation from imperialist shills and those with ambitions of getting a larger share of the spoils.

farraday posted:

I would estimate though that the recent spat of aircraft downings is more a result of better use of AA guns then missiles. Lacking other evidence I haven't seen any telltale signs indicating MANPAD launches in the videos. Give the general proclivity to fliming "awesome" weaponry among activists and rebels I would expect the firing of a fairly rare weapon to be documented.

Baby Huey Newton posted:

People keep strawmanning the opposition as Assad supporters, because it is far easier than confronting the fact that they are supporters of NATO imperialism.

Cream_Filling posted:

Never mind the fact that his regime was relatively chummy with the west in general, what with the free trade agreements with the EU and what not.

Crasscrab posted:

Maybe this guy is the anti-Caro. Maybe he's going to get tired of arguing with us and go to join the Assad regime in killing the CIA imperialist pig dogs.

Cream_Filling posted:

For all your talk about sources and facts, you haven't actually presented any evidence to support your assertion that the Syrian rebels are imperialist plants instead of an actual popular rebellion. All you have is ~*implications*~ that getting rid of Assad helps the western Imperialists. Never mind the fact that his regime was relatively chummy with the west in general, what with the free trade agreements with the EU and what not.

Baby Huey Newton posted:

As the Arab League report clearly states, there was an initial popular protest movement (the reasons for this are complex and have to do with the changing economic makeup of Libya and Syria from nationalist-bourgeoisie and proletariat to labor aristocracy and comprador-bourgeoisie) which was initially met with resistance by the government but then withered away. It increasingly became replaced with the Free Syrian Army and various militias/contras backed by Qatar and Saudi Arabia funneled through Libya, Afghanistan, Egypt, Turkey, and U.S. imperialist bases. As government violence decreased, militia violence increased, and the western imperialist powers ramped up propaganda and calls for intervention. As of this moment, there is no popular movement left except those remnants that want an end to all violence and are not allied to either side.

This failed because of Russia and China, and despite recent efforts to force Turkish intervention, the majority of the population supports Assad and the overwhelming majority opposes foreign intervention. We are facing a situation of civil war between the government (and the majority of the population who wants the violence to end) and foreign fighters. Perhaps at one time there was a chance for a popular movement, but because of the class character of the initial movement, the geographical importance of Syria for Zionism, and the imperialist machinations in the region, there are now only two sides to choose from and this thread is clearly on the side of foreign invasion and subsequent looting and death in Syria.

Hope this helps explain a little more the reality of where I'm coming from.

change my name posted:

Sorry if I come off as pedantic, but it seems like you're throwing around a lot of terms without knowing what they mean.

change my name posted:

Sorry if I come off as pedantic, but it seems like you're throwing around a lot of terms without knowing what they mean.

Nenonen posted:

(Like, what of those who support both NATO imperialism AND Russian and Chinese imperialism? Where do they fall?)

Baby Huey Newton posted:

Baby Huey Newton posted:

It just comes across as annoying. Enjoy your probation.

Baby Huey Newton posted:

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Crasscrab posted:

Brown Moses just outed himself as the CIA imperialist that he is by suppressing the voice of reason. Trap spring.

Baby Huey Newton posted:

a bunch of stuff

Baby Huey Newton posted:

This is how the large majority of the world views people who consume American and British news. Even other Europeans laugh at us, Der Speagel has been far better than anything we have on this issue.

Cream_Filling posted:

Der Speigel is a legit paper.

Burning Mustache posted:

It was just a terrible joke on his inability to even properly spell the name of the paper he claims to be so reputable.
_{Also yours :I}

change my name posted:

Sorry if I come off as pedantic, but it seems like you're throwing around a lot of terms without knowing what they mean.

Hob_Gadling posted:

A couple notes on the article:

The missile needs to be fired at fighters from behind due to how the seeking system works. While theoretically you can target and fire at planes from every direction, anything else reduces hitting chances. Their range is also limited with a relatively low ceiling. On the other hand loyalists might decide discretion is the better part of valor and start flying higher, essentially making spotting impossible and bombing extremely inaccurate. The main purpose of MANPADS is to keep enemy aircraft from getting too bold, anyway.

Unless rebels manage to catch helicopters napping, taking off or landing, scoring a hit is unlikely at best. Mujahideen did their best to ambush Soviet helos near airfields, as low target airspeeds give the missile best chances to hit. You might want to keep an eye out for activity near airfields.