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Pro-PRC Laowai
Sep 30, 2004

by toby

punk rebel ecks posted:

I don't know about anyone else but I got a "yearning for ol' left" years from people interviewed in that NPR article, or at the very least a movement toward the left again (economic). I'm not sure why, I mean China has been doing very well.


I was ironically talking to one of my Chinese friends here about the politics in China. She was actually talking about their upcoming "elections".

There are actually elections in China at the lower levels though.

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TheBuilder
Jul 11, 2001
However, they are largely meaningless.

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006

Pro-PRC Laowai posted:

There are actually elections in China at the lower levels though.

The lowest levels, honestly.

hitension
Feb 14, 2005


Hey guys, I learned Chinese so that I can write shame in another language
And I've spoken with some of the people invited to observe those elections and it's hard to say whether or not they are legit (probably varies a lot with location)

Mozi
Apr 4, 2004

Forms change so fast
Time is moving past
Memory is smoke
Gonna get wider when I die
Nap Ghost
Also it's not like just anybody can be a candidate, by and large. When the candidates are pre-approved there's no risk. Plus anybody elected promising change quickly realizes they have no ability to effect such change, which leads to disillusionment in the system in general (good thing this will never happen anywhere else).

Nevermind16
Jun 28, 2012
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-20134564


does this article have truth to it

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006

It's just asking some people on the street what they think is important. The answers sound like pretty much what you'd expect from middle-class people in China. Quality of life, education, political reform, food safety, economic development. I don't see a reason to question it.

hitension
Feb 14, 2005


Hey guys, I learned Chinese so that I can write shame in another language
Looks pretty accurate to me, some of the translations are off but I guess they wanted the person to expand beyond "I hope I get a higher salary"

Suntory BOSS
Apr 17, 2006

Seems somewhat urban-centric. I wonder if the ~50% of Chinese living in rural areas have different opinions to Harbin housewives.

GuestBob
Nov 27, 2005

Nevermind16 posted:

does this article have truth to it

That's some good PR for China's political system right there.

Ah, this is more like it:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-20172104

whatever7
Jul 26, 2001

by LITERALLY AN ADMIN
Warning: this is a long post


Travelogue Documentaries About China (Part I)

I am a huge fan of travel documentaries of all kind. I have been collecting travel documentaries from different sources. The more I watch them, the more I realize the BBC produced docs completely dominate the like of National Geographic, Discovery Channel and their simplistic narrow subject matter documentaries.

Here are some of the china-related travel docs that deserve more viewing. If you feel guilty about not being able to watch BBC shows legally, here is a link to donate to them.

Paul Merton in China (2008) 4 episodes, UK/FIVE

This mini series is supposed to showcase the "new" China before the Beijing Olympic. Paul Merton has a pretty peculiar sensitivity that make me a fan of his cultural travelogues. His Paul Merton in India was also great.

This guy is not as "hard hitting" as Simon Reeve, nor as likely to attract weirdos as Louis Theroux. He just go about looking for things that interest him, that I also find interesting. Here is a quick snippet of his mischief in China:



I probably don't need to caption these.



Here he goes to a parental dating meet in Shanghai and tries to get hooked up. The only weak episode is the one he goes to Li River in Guilin and basically goes softball on the tourist region.



The last episode is pretty interesting. He talks to American parents who adopt Chinese babies; and a 80 year old underground Christian church priest.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Michael Palin: Around the World in 80 Days (1988) UK/BBC

I am a huge huge fan of Michael Palin's travel stuff. If it wasn't for him I wouldn't start watching travel documentaries. I am a child of the 80s and I just can not get enough of China from that era. Seeing the footages of Guangzhou from 1988 warms my heart.


The gimmick of this show is that Michael Palin has to travel the world in 80 days without flying. In Episode 5, Palin takes a freighter from Singapore to Hong Kong and meets up with a guide. They took the boat (I remember those!) to Guangzhou. They stop by a, you guess it, snake restaurant and have some exotic food. The series is always in a rush so the team take the train straight to Shanghai.


Here you can catch a glimpse what Shanghai used to look like a quarter century ago. Even the dress from that era was so different.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Full Circle with Michael Palin (1997) BBC

Almost a decade later, Palin is back for a new series that does the round in the pacific rim (really a stretch of a reason to group some countries together, but hey whatever.) In Episode 3, he enters China from Qing Dao (of the Tsingtao Beer fame) and passes by Shanghai, which look completely different.


Under the 3rd generation leadership, China has pretty much transformed to the modern State Capitalism China you know. Palin travels up the Yangtze river in a ferry and visits the construction of the controversial There Gouges Dam.


He visits Chongqing and the Miao people and then leaves China for Vietnam.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Himalaya with Michael Palin (1999) BBC

In this series Palin does the circle around Everest in the Subcontinent.

In Episode 4, Palin enters China through Nepal.


He visits Yushu and Lhasa. Palin doesn't talk alot of politic but visits plenty of monasteries. The sceneries are breathtaking. Palin then visits various exotic places and people in Yunnan. He talks to writer singer Namu , a Mosuo minority of strange marriage custom.



I get the feeling the propaganda office probably threw that woman at him to showcase China's minority policy. My wife told me she is now serving as a celebrity judge for an "American Idol" type show.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Silk Road, Series 1 (1980) 12 episodes, Japan/HNK China/CCTV


This series is loving epic. Until I saw this show, I didn't know a different TV production can compete with BBC's cultural anthropology documentary series at the highest level. The Silk Road series tried to trace the ancient silk road and document the ancient artifacts alone the way. The first series (12 episodes) was filmed inside China, with the complete support of the Chinese government, during the honeymoon period right after the the China and Japan governments signed the 1978 peace and friendship treaty.

The 2nd series (18 episodes) picked up where the first series left off and followed the Silk Road in Central Asia from various Soviet Republics, through Pakistan and India, through the Mesopotamia region and all the way to Alexandria. Only the first series was ever published in the west (through BBC?). The 2nd series was bigger in scope and more ambitious and obviously more difficult to film. I have only seem a version published by the Hong Kong TVB, narrated by a famous Cantonese actress. I believe the actual HK DVD version includes both Cantonese and English tracks. I am trying to find these sets of DVD if they do exist. These series, especially the 2nd series need to be seen by the world.

As far as the first series goes. It's really amazing how much resource and support the Chinese government gave to the production team to revisit the long lost Central Asian civilizations buried deep inside the desert. It also contains incredible footages of the Uyghur people and their lives. I got to be honest with you. I don't remember seeing any Xinjiang documentary. These region is even more restrict access to the outsiders than Tibet.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's it for now. I may do a "Part II", but its going to be consist of mostly 2nd tier poo poo from National Geographic and Lonely Planet. Also, Wild China from BBC is not a travelogue but you want to check it out.

whatever7 fucked around with this message at 10:15 on Nov 7, 2012

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin

quote:

Here you can catch a glimpse what Shanghai used to look like a quarter century ago. Even the dress from that era was so different.

Speak for yourself. I'm still rocking a sweater-vest with a blazer over the top every day. :colbert:

I told this story before(maybe in this tread) but one day I was bored and flipping channels and caught Micheal Palin's Himalaya on one of those 2nd tier provincial satellite chanels, like Yunnan TV or some poo poo. It was subtitled in traditional Chinese and apparently no one bothered to actually watch the thing before throwing it on air - it has a pretty long and sympathetic Palin interview with the Dalai Lama towards the end. I imagine the program director is probably toiling away in a labour camp now, but serves him right for probably throwing up pirate DVDs without checking.

whatever7
Jul 26, 2001

by LITERALLY AN ADMIN
He didn't say anything interesting with Dalai Lama though.

I find movies/documentaries actively block by Beijing (Tibet Cry of Snow Lion, Seven Year in Tibet for example) you will freak out the Chinese sites if you want to search the subtitle. With Palin Himalaya you can easily find the Chinese subtitle.

Kopijeger
Feb 14, 2010
Something I have been thinking about recently: How do people in China view the Soviet-Japanese war of August 1945 and the subsequent creation of the DPRK? I am particulary interested in knowing what official textbooks and history curricula in universities have to say about it.

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006

I had a student today argue that all of Japan should belong to China because Japan paid tribute to China at some point in the Qing dynasty. (Guessing early Qing then?) The bell had rung so I just switched to Chinese at this point and went on a short rant about how ancient history is meaningless in modern politics and we should only accept arguments grounded in modern international law. I was really surprised when the whole class applauded* until they said, "Wow, your Chinese is so good!"

:sigh:

*this actually happened; the whole class is 6 people

Agesilaus
Jan 27, 2012

by Y Kant Ozma Post

Arglebargle III posted:

I had a student today argue that all of Japan should belong to China because Japan paid tribute to China at some point in the Qing dynasty. (Guessing early Qing then?) The bell had rung so I just switched to Chinese at this point and went on a short rant about how ancient history is meaningless in modern politics and we should only accept arguments grounded in modern international law. I was really surprised when the whole class applauded* until they said, "Wow, your Chinese is so good!"

On the one hand, that's hilarious because it's absolutely what a group of chinese people would do if you suddenly started speaking chinese. On the other hand, I'm really glad they weren't clapping in agreement, because insisting that people only accept arguments grounded in modern international law just seems bizarre and stifling.

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006

Well the 18 big is over... did anything happen? I'm serious I saw some guys on TV and they all looked like all the other guys.

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006

Crosspost from the fracking thread because I miss this thread more than Reese's products

China's going into this industry in a huge way. Not only is it possibly going to make a huge amount of money, but China's petrochemical industry is state-owned. If you don't follow China, this basically means that it will have unlimited credit and no accountability, ever, for environmental or business failures. This is going to happen and nothing, not even the President of China, can stop it.

The Guardian:

The Guardian posted:

China planning 'huge fracking industry'

Chinese plans to expand fracking for shale gas prompt fears over local water and international climate impacts



China is ratcheting up its fracking ambitions with virtually no regard for groundwater protection or other environmental safety measures, according to a new investigation by the independent publication Caixin. The report points to an 24 October white paper on energy development released by China's top cabinet which "calls for ramping up the industry and pumping 6.5 billion cubic meters of natural gas from underground shale formations by 2015."

"The model for China's anticipated success is the US shale gas sector," the article states. "Geologists estimate the nation's recoverable reserves at about 25 trillion cubic meters, on par with the United States."

Fracking has particular appeal in China because it provides an alternative to burning coal, which currently supplies about 70 percent of the nation's consumed energy. Because natural gas can generate electricity at half the greenhouse gas emissions of coal, some see it as a way to reduce China's carbon footprint.

But fracking isn't without environmental problems, as I and my colleagues at Mother Jones have reported before. And Caixin's review of government documents as well as interviews with industry sources, government officials, and environmental advocates reveal that fracking's risks have not come under public scrutiny the way they have in the US, "much less addressed by the [Chinese] government or controlled via environmental laws."

If fracking takes off in China as planned, it will likely exacerbate the nation's existing water crisis. "Most of the nation's shale gas lies in areas plagued by water shortages," the report says. With about 20 percent of the world's population and only 6 percent of the world's water resources, China is one of the least water-secure countries in the world. Its water shortages are made worse by pollution: According to the Ministry of Water Resources about 40 percent of China's rivers were so polluted they were deemed unfit for drinking, while about 300 million rural residents lack access to safe drinking water each year.

In order to reach the government's annual shale gas production goal of 6.5 billion cubic meters by 2015, as many as 1,380 wells will need to be drilled across the country, requiring up to 13.8 million cubic meters of water, an industry source told Caixin. China's industrial sector already consumes about 35 billion cubic meters of water a year. That amount of water would fill about 14 million Olympic-size swimming pools.

There's also serious risk of water contamination, as seen in the US fracking experience. Multiple studies in recent years including those by the EPA, Pennsylvania, and Duke University have concluded that shale gas drilling releases methane which can contaminate nearby water supplies. A 2009 ProPublica investigation found methane contamination from fracking was widespread in Colorado, Ohio, and Pennsylvania. But as Caixin reports, "there would be no legal reason to limit methane emissions at a shale gas well because China's pollution standards do not cover methane." One Ministry of Environmental Protection source told the publication that writing a new standard into law would take three years, "which helps explain why the State Council's decision to fast-track the nation's fledgling shale gas industry is making a lot of people nervous."

Groundwater in 57 percent of China's 660 cities have already been significantly polluted, according to the Ministry of Environmental Protection.

An unidentified source at China's Ministry of Land Resources told Caixin that as shale gas development accelerates the government will likely introduce specific environmental policies to address fracking, such as groundwater protection. But these are not likely to be legally binding, an industry source told the publication.

Perhaps a bigger concern is that China's main energy and economic planning agencies, including the Ministry of Land Resources, seem to view fracking's environmental risks as minimal or inflated:

The MLR geological department source said, for example, that China's shale gas is at least 3,000 meters and sometimes 4,000 meters underground—significantly deeper than aquifers, and separated from underground water by impermeable rock.

Other industry sources argue that fracking fluids, which are mainly comprised of water and sand, break down naturally over a short time. And chemical additives make up less than 0.5 percent of what's injected, they say.

Similarly upbeat arguments against environmental fretting can be found in the government's development plan for the period ending in 2015. It was jointly issued by four agencies including the National Development and Reform Commission and National Energy Bureau.

Meanwhile, Caixin reported that one test fracking operation in Shaanxi Province—a major coal region in China's dry North—recently "went awry, forcing local officials to temporarily cut a nearby city's water supply."

Commercial fracking operations in China have not yet started, according to Caixin's report, but some Chinese companies have drilled test wells, and the government has begun selling chunks of designated fracking territory. In its latest round of auctioning shale-gas exploration blocks, for example, the Ministry of Land Resources awarded two blocks to Sinopec and Henan Coal Seam Gas Development and Utilization Co, in deals worth an estimated $128.5 million.

Foreign companies including Royal Dutch Shell are also showing interest in China's fracking plans. Shell announced earlier this month that it had shale gas agreements with three major Chinese oil companies. Caixin also reported in September that Shell was in talks with one company about a shale gas joint venture. ExxonMobil, BP, Chevron, and France-based Total are also working to form shale gas partnerships with Chinese oil and gas companies, according to an August National Geographic report.

Many Westerners don't really understand how lawless China is. Rule of law has been deteriorating basically since its peak in the early 90s after the Tiananmen protests terrified the government into re-asserting authority. China likes to project an air of great state control but in reality its institutions are rotting with corruption and paralyzed by the sheer complexity of getting anything done when you have to check with a dozen officials who have to check with their unofficial corrupting interests before anything can get done. State-owned industries can literally get away with murder, and nobody sees it getting better.

The take-away is that fracking is going to become a huge industry no matter what anyone thinks about it, and drat the consequences. Concerns about the water table won't stop it. Even losing money won't stop this; the petrochemical behemoth has an unlimited credit line from the central bank.

One of the worst things about living in China is watching them make all the mistakes the West has made in a misguided attempt to emulate us; and all without the margin of error our resources afford us.

Electro-Boogie Jack
Nov 22, 2006
bagger mcguirk sent me.

Wow, fracking plus China really does equal complete and total horror. I'd never even considered what would happen when that technology shows up in the PRC.

Implementing the rule of law would be the single biggest step they could take towards fixing China's problems, but that would also mean the end of doing whatever you want with only the tiniest chance of consequences for the Party, so good luck with that.

Dameius
Apr 3, 2006
The book thread pointed me over to the hivemind in here on any recommendations that give a good summary/overview/in depth look at Taiwanese history starting around the RoC exile on to present. Books, documentaries, journal articles, whatever other mixed/multimedia format you can think of will do though I prefer something text based if you can. In English if written or subtitled if video.

Grim Up North
Dec 12, 2011

whatever7 posted:

Warning: this is a long post

:words:

That's it for now.

Just wanted to say thank you for this post. I watched Paul Merton and I'm definitely going to track down "Silk Road". Do you also have recommendations for more recent documentaries?

GuestBob
Nov 27, 2005

Grim Up North posted:

Just wanted to say thank you for this post. I watched Paul Merton and I'm definitely going to track down "Silk Road". Do you also have recommendations for more recent documentaries?

Education wise - "Chinese School" is a pretty good BBC4/Open University documentary about the Chinese education system. It's a little soft in places though (the price people pay to be allowed to film I think). Spiderjelly posted an excellent documentary in the T&T China Thread recently which is much more realistic.

On the "hilarious things which the CPC censors let through", there was a BBC documentary about religion called "Around the World in 80 Faiths" with a hippy vicar. When they went to China they climbed one of the sacred mountains and there is a whole back-and-forth scene with the government translator/minder and the Abbot of this monastery. Peter Owen-Jones (the vicar guy) asks a question about Daoism and the Abbot begins this long response which the minder guy interrupts with the phrase "Don't bother explaining. Just tell him its very old and historical." Apparently forgetting that the cameras were rolling and that people outside the CPC can speak Mandarin.

GuestBob fucked around with this message at 13:34 on Dec 10, 2012

Modest Mao
Feb 11, 2011

by Cyrano4747

Dameius posted:

The book thread pointed me over to the hivemind in here on any recommendations that give a good summary/overview/in depth look at Taiwanese history starting around the RoC exile on to present. Books, documentaries, journal articles, whatever other mixed/multimedia format you can think of will do though I prefer something text based if you can. In English if written or subtitled if video.

Seconding this

Franks Happy Place
Mar 15, 2011

It is by weed alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the dank of Sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by weed alone I set my mind in motion.
The problem with modern Taiwanese history is that nobody in Taiwan can agree on what happened or why, so anyone attempting to document that history ends up being inherently biased as holding one of the two binary (and opposed) viewpoints. It's a bit like trying to find a good account of the Israel/Palestine situation- even when you try to nuance it, both sides simply scream that you're biased against them.

I took some classes in Taiwanese history when I was at TaiDa, mostly written from the Guomindang/Mainlander perspective, and it was fascinating stuff. Lots of rich culture, traditions, and viewpoints that simply don't exist in modern Dalu. Some of their old sayings are every bit as hilarious and/or cute as the old CCP slogans.

Marshal Prolapse
Jun 23, 2012

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

whatever7 posted:


The 2nd series (18 episodes) picked up where the first series left off and followed the Silk Road in Central Asia from various Soviet Republics, through Pakistan and India, through the Mesopotamia region and all the way to Alexandria. Only the first series was ever published in the west (through BBC?). The 2nd series was bigger in scope and more ambitious and obviously more difficult to film. I have only seem a version published by the Hong Kong TVB, narrated by a famous Cantonese actress. I believe the actual HK DVD version includes both Cantonese and English tracks. I am trying to find these sets of DVD if they do exist. These series, especially the 2nd series need to be seen by the world.


Here's some leads on the DVD box sets. I've found a couple of Mainland ones in Mandarin only, but these ones might be a little more fruitful.
Part I
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.10.143.Gz3mOV&id=1602141290
Part II
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=15017580511

Taobao is a regular ecommerce site. No clue if this version is dual language or even subbed. The box looks like a Japanese version so I suspect the ones on Chinese sites are boots, no clue what if any languages got added, as I can't read Simplified or Traditional Chinese (just got good at searching Chinese titles from looking for Hong Kong movies on Chinese sites).

Can't comment on this sites, but they are also selling it.
http://www.meybuy.com/view.php?iid=8176151080


It appears to be copies of the insanely expensive and Japanese language only R2 DVDs.
http://www.yesasia.com/us/nhk-tokushu-silk-road-digitally-remastered-dvd-box-2-japan-version/1004087608-0-0-0-en/info.html

Here is a review of a newer Silk Road doc done in 2003.
http://www.520dvd.com/dznews/html/15/n-2315.html

EDIT:
This appears to be a copy of the Hong Kong TVB set....on eBay Russia. It's not longer for sale, but it should give an indication that copies of the TVB set are floating around.
http://viewitem.eim.ebay.ru/NHK-CCTV-TVB-The-Silk-Road-10-DVD-Box-Set-collection/251013382431/item/index.en-US.html

EDIT EDIT:
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.10.65.vLnN5a&id=20616428402
Appears to be a copy with the English narration. The Chinese characters for English and Cantonese appears in the description.

Marshal Prolapse fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Dec 10, 2012

chird
Sep 26, 2004

Thought this was quite interesting, a look at the recent research from SWE about income gap etc.

http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2012/12/10/perception-vs-reality-charting-chinas-family-value/?mod=WSJBlog

Moral_Hazard
Aug 21, 2012

Rich Kid of Insurancegram
whatever 7, thanks for that post. I wish they would show re-runs of Merton's or Palin's work on BBC America instead of Star Trek: TNG reruns.

Lawman 0
Aug 17, 2010

China and Japan seem to be ratcheting up the pressure.
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/12/13/world/asia/japan-china-disputed-islands/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Vladimir Putin
Mar 17, 2007

by R. Guyovich
China strips bishop of his title after he openly denounces his membership in the so called "patriotic church".

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/13/world/asia/china-is-said-to-strip-shanghai-bishop-of-his-title.html?_r=0

ReindeerF
Apr 20, 2002

Rubber Dinghy Rapids Bro
Hey, what's the Chinese word for noblesse oblige? In Pinyin if you can. I would appreciate it.

Daduzi
Nov 22, 2005

You can't hide from the Grim Reaper. Especially when he's got a gun.

ReindeerF posted:

Hey, what's the Chinese word for noblesse oblige? In Pinyin if you can. I would appreciate it.

Do you mean the equivalent Chinese notion or a translation of the Western mediaeval concept? For the equivalent Chinese idea, m (ren2, "benevolence") is probably the closest, though it's really closer to paternalism in exact meaning (since it applied to families as well as the state). For the translation, I have no idea unfortunately.

Soy Division
Aug 12, 2004

MoraleHazard posted:

whatever 7, thanks for that post. I wish they would show re-runs of Merton's or Palin's work on BBC America instead of Star Trek: TNG reruns.
Thankfully, all the Palin miniseries are on Netflix.

sincx
Jul 13, 2012

furiously masturbating to anime titties
.

sincx fucked around with this message at 05:42 on Mar 23, 2021

Barto
Dec 27, 2004

Daduzi posted:

Do you mean the equivalent Chinese notion or a translation of the Western mediaeval concept? For the equivalent Chinese idea, m (ren2, "benevolence") is probably the closest, though it's really closer to paternalism in exact meaning (since it applied to families as well as the state). For the translation, I have no idea unfortunately.

Ren or Ren'ai isn't the equivalent Chinese idea. It definitely has changing implications moving on from the Spring and Autumn period, especially starting in the Tang-Song eras, but it's not about obligation except in the general sense to do good. Paternalism is 父愛主義 (fu4ai4zhu3yi4) which is much more related to filial piety than Ren'ai. Noblesse oblige is a very specific ethical/legal construct that did and could not exist in ancient China. All power flowed from the emperor to those below him. The emperor is spiritually and physically connected to nature and Heaven which has given him power at the head of the natural order. There is no obligation or duty, there is only a fulfillment of what is correct.

I would suggest di4wei4gao1 ze2ren4zhong4 (地位高则责任重) as a possible translation.

Nighteyedie
May 30, 2011

Barto posted:

Ren or Ren'ai isn't the equivalent Chinese idea. It definitely has changing implications moving on from the Spring and Autumn period, especially starting in the Tang-Song eras, but it's not about obligation except in the general sense to do good. Paternalism is 父愛主義 (fu4ai4zhu3yi4) which is much more related to filial piety than Ren'ai. Noblesse oblige is a very specific ethical/legal construct that did and could not exist in ancient China. All power flowed from the emperor to those below him. The emperor is spiritually and physically connected to nature and Heaven which has given him power at the head of the natural order. There is no obligation or duty, there is only a fulfillment of what is correct.

I would suggest di4wei4gao1 ze2ren4zhong4 (地位高则责任重) as a possible translation.

I've never really studied Chinese History, but isn't there the "Mandate of Heaven" where rulers are supposed to earn the heaven's favor by actually being good rulers?

Barto
Dec 27, 2004

Nighteyedie posted:

I've never really studied Chinese History, but isn't there the "Mandate of Heaven" where rulers are supposed to earn the heaven's favor by actually being good rulers?

Being the ruler means having the Mandate of Heaven, once a dynasty is overthrown it has lost the mandate. This is based on the idea of "all things" (wan4wu4) having an order or system. If you follow the system and your place in it, everything is fine; if you don't respect this order, you will have problems (no matter whom you are).
The Chinese emperor was rarely a true despot, depending on the dynasty, good rulership was the point of the emperor's existence. This entire transfer of dynasties is based on the cycle of the 5 elements (water, earth, fire, etc.) and each new dynasty usually tries to place itself in relation to the previous one as part of a cycle, i.e. if Qin was water, then Han was earth, etc.

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006

Nighteyedie posted:

I've never really studied Chinese History, but isn't there the "Mandate of Heaven" where rulers are supposed to earn the heaven's favor by actually being good rulers?

Yes, but if you look at history it also meant being lucky rulers. Many dynasties lost the Mandate of Heaven (in the eyes of the court and literati because they're the only ones who wrote down what they thought) because of events that were completely beyond their control, like earthquakes or invasions.

Deceitful Penguin
Feb 16, 2011

Arglebargle III posted:

Yes, but if you look at history it also meant being lucky rulers. Many dynasties lost the Mandate of Heaven (in the eyes of the court and literati because they're the only ones who wrote down what they thought) because of events that were completely beyond their control, like earthquakes or invasions.
I always felt that the Mandate of Heaven was mostly just used to justify the fact that the new Emperor killed the last one and took control. Like a convenient justification for usurpation. Started that way, stayed that way.

That might just have been though because I always contrasted it with divine right in the European sense~

Spiderfist Island
Feb 19, 2011

Deceitful Penguin posted:

I always felt that the Mandate of Heaven was mostly just used to justify the fact that the new Emperor killed the last one and took control. Like a convenient justification for usurpation. Started that way, stayed that way.

That might just have been though because I always contrasted it with divine right in the European sense~

My Chinese Political Art History teacher from last semester argued that the Mandate (which apparently could also be translated as "contract," and was in the 1700s when translating it into English) was actually a form of popular sovereignty theory at periods in China when it wasn't feudalistic and hierarchical (such as in the Tang).

My Professor's Lecture Slides posted:

The Zuo zhuan (4th c. BCE) records that in 549 BCE the great officers Qing Yu and Qing Yin put to death a builder because one of the planks on the wall he was building fell down. This was considered excessive by the other workers who agreed that they should kill their overseers, after which they went after the two Qing. The Zuo comments: "a gentleman would say that the two Qing were not just [in their behavior] and that such a course cannot be indulged. Thus the Book of History says: 'Heaven's Mandate is inconstant.' "

Zuo applies the Mandate not to an emperor or king, but to officers– the Mandate, at least in this period, isn't just an idea that applies to a single person or a regime, but actions. Heaven didn't strike down the Qing, but the people did.


"Master Zuo's Annals," Later Slide posted:

The people/rén of Wei had recently expelled their ruler. Music master Kuang happened to be sitting beside the marquis and so the latter asked him, "have not the people done wrong by expelling their ruler?" The music master observed, "perhaps the ruler had actually done wrong." He added that if one is good to the people "they will maintain the ruler, look up to him as the sun and the moon, revere him as though they would the spirits and stand in awe of them as though they were thunder. Could such a ruler be expelled?" On the other hand, if he makes their lives difficult, then the people would lose hope. Under these circumstances, "of what use is [the ruler] and what should they do but send him away?"


The very fact that Kuang said that the king may have done wrong signifies that it's a thing that can happen- the aristocracy can't do "wrong" in a feudal society unless it's couched in religious terms. Note that Kuang doesn't say that Heaven gave the people of Wei the goahead to kick out their ruler. It's a relation between the ruler and the ruled based on a contract-a mandate- that has nothing to do with the supernatural.

Both of the above quotes are talking about a history book written during the Spring and Autumn period, which is also when Confucianism became a major philosophy and the traditional feudal hierarchical society was starting to break down. There probably is a major connection between the decline of the feudal hierarchies and the rise of Confucianist concepts of meritocracy and political rule. Again, this is only the Mandate in a Classical Chinese interpretation, and it probably changed a lot and previous definitions then reapplied or reinterpreted over 2,500 years.

Of course, I'm not an expert in Chinese history to say the least, but there probably is some grain of truth in this post. I didn't even cite late Tang radicals like Liu Zongyuan (773-819 AD), who's all about this stuff and hated his feudal society.

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Barto
Dec 27, 2004

Spiderfist Island posted:

My Chinese Political Art History teacher from last semester argued that the Mandate (which apparently could also be translated as "contract," and was in the 1700s when translating it into English) was actually a form of popular sovereignty theory at periods in China when it wasn't feudalistic and hierarchical (such as in the Tang).

The contract translation is wrong.
命 (ming4) has six common meanings in classical texts.
(as a noun)
an order such as in Zuozhuan:
左傳˙成公十三年:「寡人帥以聽命...」
Zuozhuan, the 13th Year of Duke Cheng: "Our men heed the ~~command~~."
Fate ordained by heaven:
論語˙顏淵:「死生有命,富貴在天。」
The Analects, the Yanyuan Chapter: Life and Death are ~~fated~~, wealth and fortune are at/come from Heaven.
an existence/life
文選˙李密˙陳情表:「人命危淺,朝不慮夕。」
Literary Selections, Li Mi, Thoughts Presented to the Emperor
"Human ~~life~~ is short and brutish, in the morning think not of evening."

(as a verb)
to be ordered out on a mission
唐˙柳宗元˙始得西山宴游記:「遂命僕人過湘江,緣染溪。」
Liu Zongyuan: Record of the first banquet on Westmount: "[I] then ~~~ordered~~~ my servant across the river, where green stained the brook."
And also, to believe [of oneself] or choose a name.

命 (ming4) does not have the meaning of contract. China has had contract law from a very early time, so if it meant contract or had that meaning it would be evident from the literary corpus.


Secondly, your professor has made a big mistake of using evidence from the Zuozhuan in order to talk about the idea of 天命 (tian1ming4) in later times because in the Zuozhuan it's being used in a general sense of noun/verb, not as a specific philosophical concept as developed by Xunzi/Dong Zhongshu, etc.

Trying to suggest that there's no spiritual element in the mandate philosophy is rewriting history. The Chinese during the Han had a very nuanced idea about the spiritual world and their relation to it. But this world and understanding of it is not equivalent to the western/modern/orientalist or even modern Chinese understanding of the situation- at all.

I think "The Early Chinese Empires" by Lewis and "The Age of Confucian Rule" by Kuhn are good places for non-Chinese speakers to get into the subject.

Barto fucked around with this message at 07:09 on Dec 16, 2012

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