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nvining posted:... why do people feel compelled to tell me these things? A man can't argue when another man wants to put his dick in his game. Just impolite.
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Nov 22, 2012 02:38
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nvining posted:Here is the crux of the problem that we're currently arguing about. There are currently a bunch of dynamics lines types - mechanical force axles, steam transmitting pipes, automatic conveyor belts between factories and stockpiles, all that sort of stuff. We're not worried about it getting too complicated - everything, actually, is either "on the ground" or "above the ground", and you can then have local connections over top of things so you can have networks; the problem is trying to figure out what the heck is going on when you go and look at the screen. Are you sure that you even have a problem? Once the settlement gets complex enough, a tangled mess of tubes is basically what I expect to happen. Heck, take a look at some pictures of power lines in New York City around the turn of the last century; no one could figure out what the hell is happening. So, why are you focusing on the tubes? Why not just have a way for nodes to indicate what other nodes they're connected to? quote:We're not sure what the solution is yet. Ultimately, if we have to get rid of the pipes and dynamics because it makes the game visually unreadable, we will; we don't want to, though, because pipes look cool and awesome. Please don't.
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Nov 22, 2012 03:13
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Maybe the solution is to have a 'bundle of pipes' structure? You build it like a normal pipe, but it has the capacity to branch off and (and be branced into) by multiple pipes (yet still preserves them as separate lines)? I agree that 20 separate pipelines is going to look confusing, but making a tree of a megapipes with 20 subpipes might be easier. That way you only have to show exactly what's in the megapipe when an off-pipe or an on-pipe is being constructed. You could probably do something similar with axles and electric lines, but conveyor belts or railways are going to be a different beast. rudatron fucked around with this message at 03:26 on Nov 22, 2012 |
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Nov 22, 2012 03:24
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Volmarias posted:So, why are you focusing on the tubes? Why not just have a way for nodes to indicate what other nodes they're connected to? I kind of like this idea. You get an abstract node map, you hook up two nodes with a connection and then the pipe is built from one node to another. There is, however, a real pipe, because the whole point of pipes is so that pipes can break and flood your town with steam, molten metal, or live chickens.
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Nov 22, 2012 04:03
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Ratoslov posted:I kind of like this idea. You get an abstract node map, you hook up two nodes with a connection and then the pipe is built from one node to another. There is, however, a real pipe, because the whole point of pipes is so that pipes can break and flood your town with steam, molten metal, or live chickens. Or Urchins. Or Crimble. Or horrifying mind melting purple slime from the otherworldly artifact you hooked up to a factory.
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Nov 22, 2012 04:06
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nvining posted:Here is the crux of the problem that we're currently arguing about. There are currently a bunch of dynamics lines types - mechanical force axles, steam transmitting pipes, automatic conveyor belts between factories and stockpiles, all that sort of stuff. We're not worried about it getting too complicated - everything, actually, is either "on the ground" or "above the ground", and you can then have local connections over top of things so you can have networks; the problem is trying to figure out what the heck is going on when you go and look at the screen. I've banged on this drum before, but if you've yet to try Tekkit out for it, i still recommend it. Redpower, Buildcraft and a few other Minecraft mods tinker with the whole pipeline nonsense. It might help give ideas how to make it clearer. Hell it could be something as simple as painting the pipes a colour to let the player choose how he/she knows what that pipe is doing, in the same vein of redpower's pipes. I could be the kind of player who paints every resource input pipe black, every fuel pipe red and every output white, while saving a bunch of colours for the special inputs. Minecraft's industrial mods dont seem to be far shy of what you're doing, since most of the time people try to construct automatic setups to simplify item management, and thats the goal of most of these town building games anyway right? Getting Resource X into product Y.
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Nov 22, 2012 04:07
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All I really want from pipes is the possibility of a pipe sprawl catastrophe. Under certain circumstances it should be possible for an area with too many pipes to get mixed up into a tangled pipe nest. What are the chances of pipe deity?
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Nov 22, 2012 04:20
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If someone thinks pipes are ugly, they can just put them underground. 
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Nov 22, 2012 05:20
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Giant sprawling mazes of pipes, dangerously located above the town and pumping things..somewhere..is exactly what I want anyway. If I don't want my pipes to be completely chaos, I should have built them better!
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Nov 22, 2012 05:35
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rudatron posted:Maybe the solution is to have a 'bundle of pipes' structure? You build it like a normal pipe, but it has the capacity to branch off and (and be branced into) by multiple pipes (yet still preserves them as separate lines)? I agree that 20 separate pipelines is going to look confusing, but making a tree of a megapipes with 20 subpipes might be easier. That way you only have to show exactly what's in the megapipe when an off-pipe or an on-pipe is being constructed. Dr. Arbitrary posted:All I really want from pipes is the possibility of a pipe sprawl catastrophe. Under certain circumstances it should be possible for an area with too many pipes to get mixed up into a tangled pipe nest. Combining these two ideas: A pipe-channel. Where you can pull any number of pipes. Unless said pipes malfunction. In which case they mix up and start changing the contents fed into different locations. And you can't tell this malfunction has happened until your factory workers report it - or if the factory workers are used to unusual happenings and just go on as before, when you see the end result. Combine this with transport pipes for different types of citizens... and let's just say we may have located the event that preceded the patent for Spurchin.
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Nov 22, 2012 06:17
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I wish I'd taken pictures of the Norfolk Navy Base. There are miles and miles of above-ground steam pipes all over the base.
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Nov 22, 2012 06:20
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endlessmonotony posted:Combining these two ideas: Then you have to do it all again for the steam pipes, which is of course a bigger target due to steam explosions. rudatron fucked around with this message at 07:06 on Nov 22, 2012 |
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Nov 22, 2012 07:03
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What are the odds we're going to see those plant people in the finished game?
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Nov 22, 2012 07:47
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Triple-Kan posted:What are the odds we're going to see those plant people in the finished game? If we keep mentioning them, just as likely as we'll see La(r)va fields.
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Nov 22, 2012 08:54
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Yeah, please don't make any final calls until you've had a play with the Minecraft megamod Tekkit. It has a whole host of ways of dealing with electrical wiring problems (similar to the issues you describe with pipes). Some ideas are good, some bad, and I'd be suprised if there weren't some ideas there that'd help your knife fight in the pit be more productive. If you're not going to play this this, at least look at the wiki. Specifically the transport pipes for Buildcraft, the wiring and transport pipes for IndustrialCraft2 and the wiring mechanics of RedPower2. Yes, these are all incompatible systems, yes it's an unholy mess but it still manages to work, somehow.
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Nov 22, 2012 10:10
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nvining posted:Here is the crux of the problem that we're currently arguing about. There are currently a bunch of dynamics lines types - mechanical force axles, steam transmitting pipes, automatic conveyor belts between factories and stockpiles, all that sort of stuff. We're not worried about it getting too complicated - everything, actually, is either "on the ground" or "above the ground", and you can then have local connections over top of things so you can have networks; the problem is trying to figure out what the heck is going on when you go and look at the screen. If different kinds of pipes had easily-discernible appearances, I don't think it would be too bad. Visions of a tangled network of pipes dance in my head. I WANT IT. Maybe you could do a thing where "layers" or "connected segments" could be highlighted by mousing over them? So, when left to their own devices, the pipes are a chaotic, visually pleasing mess. When you mouse over/select them, that specific route of pipes + the two terminals at either end light up. OR maybe if players were able to select the color of the pipes, they could organize it themselves! Blue pipes for square pig, pink pipes for lava, lavender for peasant souls, etc etc.
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Nov 22, 2012 13:32
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Just do a toggle switch between visible/hidden pipes.
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Nov 22, 2012 15:52
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flatluigi posted:Just do a toggle switch between visible/hidden pipes. Visible/Translucent/Invisible With an option for making conduits to a particular building visible while everything else is invisible.
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Nov 22, 2012 17:00
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How about some pipes decay over time, such as steam or lava. If your workers don't repair them in time they eventually rupture, and if you have a tangle of pipes they will damage others and suddenly you have steamed pig cubes marinated in aether raining from the sky.
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Nov 22, 2012 17:43
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Nevets posted:How about some pipes decay over time, such as steam or lava. If your workers don't repair them in time they eventually rupture, and if you have a tangle of pipes they will damage others and suddenly you have steamed pig cubes marinated in aether raining from the sky. What a delicious accident.
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Nov 22, 2012 20:21
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You do have to be careful about making piping too confusing. I mean, piping is the basic logistical infrastructure of your colonies, and if your colony keeps collapsing due to the interface making it hard to just set up a god-damned bread factory (which would require pipes for water, fuel, steam, kinetic force, wheat, flour, and bread, and structure-wise a boiler, a steam-turbine, a mill, a bread factory, and a stockpile), people are gonna be pissed.
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Nov 22, 2012 21:00
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Speaking of delicious accidents... Patents, meats and profitability: A brief history of Spurchin As we all know, Spurchin - alongside Spant, Spig and Spouse - is one of the meat brands sold by Hormel's Finest. But where the other meats have several imitators, Spurchin is unique due to the protection of a patent granted by the Queen herself. Spurchin was originally wildly popular, but due to various unsubstantiated rumors its popularity fell. However, at the same time, meats branded Spurchin-free rose in popularity and profitability. But, as the Queen so wisely realized, the only way to truly enforce the consistency of the brand was to grant a patent on the process of producing Spurchin to Hormel's Finest - after all, otherwise people could replace more expensive meats in ready products with imitation Spurchin, making the brand effectively meaningless. Due to the fall in popularity of Spurchin, it's production was eventually discontinued. However, Hormel's Finest has it's own small army enforcing it's patent, funded by their exclusive right to declare a meat product Spurchin-free. Whereas the exact ingredients of Spurchin are unknown to all but Hormel's Finest employees, any suspected infringement will draw an investigative team from Hormel's Finest - colloquially known as "Urchin Protectors" - which have a long history of taking any infringement extremely seriously. Where some people call the investigation teams overzealous due to the casualties they seem to unavoidably attract, there is no denying that Hormel's Finest is a well-respected group among the regular citizens.
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Nov 22, 2012 22:13
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Okay, the people have spoken: everybody says "please don't get rid of the pipes" and "please give us plant people."
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Nov 23, 2012 20:12
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nvining posted:Okay, the people have spoken: everybody says "please don't get rid of the pipes" and "please give us plant people." Please deliver plant people via piping. Thank you.
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Nov 23, 2012 20:20
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:All I really want from pipes is the possibility of a pipe sprawl catastrophe. Under certain circumstances it should be possible for an area with too many pipes to get mixed up into a tangled pipe nest. For some reaason this post had me immediately thinking of a "rat king". It's a cryptozoological phenomenon where a lot of rats sleeping together in a nest gets their tails unsolvably tied together. Sometimes they bite free, other times they all die: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/Ratking.jpg  lots of dead mummified rat corpses Is it wrong that I started thinking of undead factory sprawls eating one's colony? Get to it, you magnificient bastards!
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Nov 23, 2012 20:40
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I am personally looking forward towards eldritch effects on piping infrastructure.
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Nov 23, 2012 21:01
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Tias posted:For some reaason this post had me immediately thinking of a "rat king". It's a cryptozoological phenomenon where a lot of rats sleeping together in a nest gets their tails unsolvably tied together. Sometimes they bite free, other times they all die: Never knew the Rat King's were based on real stuff. Reality is yet again stranger than fiction. Volmarias posted:Please deliver plant people via piping. Thank you. Pipe [Spurchin Main Ingredient] into [Greenhouse].
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Nov 23, 2012 21:34
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Markovnikov posted:Never knew the Rat King's were based on real stuff. Reality is yet again stranger than fiction. I bred rats for a couple of years, and even domesticated rats will twist their tails, nuts and sundry appendages together if they're cozy enough - wild ones somehow do it more enthusiastically while sleeping. No one knows why, but it's creepy as hell. I, for one, welcome eldritch pipe chaos, you can do it, Gaslamp! 
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Nov 23, 2012 21:49
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Tias posted:For some reaason this post had me immediately thinking of a "rat king". It's a cryptozoological phenomenon where a lot of rats sleeping together in a nest gets their tails unsolvably tied together. Sometimes they bite free, other times they all die: I thought that rat kings were urban myths, but I just checked the wiki page and apparently they're an extremely rare but real thing 
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Nov 23, 2012 22:22
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My opinion on pipes vs. no-pipes is that waiting for the walkers to finally decide to deliver x good which is holding up my entire metropolis was probably the second-most annoying aspect of the Impressions games. Pipes get approval from me. If you're dead-set on not piping things, I could see certain items which are too large/fragile/cthonic requiring manual labor to move them around. If nothing else, we need pipes for the possibility of a pipe-based organism which invades and overtakes your city's own pipe network. Maybe it optimizes things so it runs smoothly, or maybe it replaces the outputs with... wrong things. I could also see a 3-layer system for building pipes - pipes/roads/power axles/etc can exist on one of 3 layers, either "aboveground", "elevated", or "underground". For an interface for that I'd either look at Rollercoaster Tycoon's path-laying system or SimCity 2000's alternate views for underground vs. aboveground. e: Also for pipe organization, there's the minecraft mod Redpower which has cables and bundled cables. Normally in minecraft signal transmission involves one material (redstone) so if you want two signals running near each other you have to do a lot of shenanigans to keep them separate. However with this mod you can make colored cables - they act like normal but won't bond with differently-colored cables, only same colors and uncolored. On top of that you have bundled cable, which only binds with itself and colored cables. Bundled cable cannot carry a signal on its own; rather it propagates the signal it gets from any particular colored cable to all other connecting cables of the same color - so you can use it to effectively run up to 16 cables through the same tile and branch off outputs where you need it with appropriately-colored cables. Basically I could see a system where you have large pipe network structures which let you build 'pipe highways' which can carry up to some arbitrary number of pipe's worth of contents and you can then selectively split off outputs where and when you need to. e2: Really I'd advise taking at least a cursory glance at the more industrial-oriented Minecraft modpacks (technic, FTB, etc) because they involve a lot of automation and ferrying things around in pipes and tubes, and a lot of people find that really fun on its own- designing systems which are capable of processing X inputs into Y outputs with minimal player interaction. President Ark fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Nov 23, 2012 |
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Nov 23, 2012 22:29
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President Ark posted:My opinion on pipes vs. no-pipes is that waiting for the walkers to finally decide to deliver x good which is holding up my entire metropolis was probably the second-most annoying aspect of the Impressions games. Pipes get approval from me. If you're dead-set on not piping things, I could see certain items which are too large/fragile/cthonic requiring manual labor to move them around. That was probably the whole point of walkers in the Impression games: you either designed your city well, or it all went to hell/took too long to get done. It was a deliberate design choice, not an unintended consequence. As I'm seeing it, pipes would just be an analogous system to walkers, and not a replacement for them; pipes will still probably carry their own little set of fuckups for you to fall in.
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Nov 23, 2012 22:35
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Markovnikov posted:That was probably the whole point of walkers in the Impression games: you either designed your city well, or it all went to hell/took too long to get done. It was a deliberate design choice, not an unintended consequence. I agree, it'd just be really annoying when my city would run fine and then suddenly the flow of one good would be interrupted for whatever reason (AI fuckup, hippo ate the deliveryman, sandstorm/typhoon/military invasion) and then I'd suddenly be in a catch-22 situation where that good being interrupted made me lose population which made me get underemployment issues which impacted my services which made it progressively harder to get back to that same point, and solving these things a lot of the time boiled down to changing Stockpile permissions - generally the least fun parts of those games. e: And if the pipes making things impossible to see vs. needing to see pipes for gameplay reasons dilemma gets too bad, then implement a Pipe Transparency option which makes pipes see-through. Bonus points if you can see what's travelling through them while that's on.  e2: Bonus bonus points if you can set pipes to be completely transparent while still being able to see things travelling through them so it looks like there's just a bunch of bricks/pigs/urchins/iron bars flying through the air from factory to factory. e3: Make that a megaproject. President Ark fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Nov 23, 2012 |
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Nov 23, 2012 22:40
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President Ark posted:I agree, it'd just be really annoying when my city would run fine and then suddenly the flow of one good would be interrupted for whatever reason (AI fuckup, hippo ate the deliveryman, sandstorm/typhoon/military invasion) and then I'd suddenly be in a catch-22 situation where that good being interrupted made me lose population which made me get underemployment issues which impacted my services which made it progressively harder to get back to that same point, and solving these things a lot of the time boiled down to changing Stockpile permissions - generally the least fun parts of those games. It's true, it can get out of hand. I remember this exact downward spiral happening to me once when playing Pharaoh not long ago: I was building a Pyramid, and the Pyramid Access Tile was over a road (because I'm bad at games). When the Pyramid was completed, it deleted the access tile, and thus the road. That cut half of my city off from the other half, and it started getting depopulated (full blown downward spiral as you describe it) because it wasn't getting any food. Cue half an hour of wrangling with job allocations and building and rebuilding roads to try and fix the mysterious lack of food on my new slum. Until I found the missing road piece and just had to reload because I was hosed beyond repair. I expect Clockwork Empires to at least give me some new horror in that situation to play with, and to make up for my newly ruined city
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Nov 23, 2012 22:51
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I'd actually love for the pipes themselves to be reasonably abstracted. Insert spurchin factory A into crimble packing plant B, et viola a pipe appears. Having to physically plot the pipe paths yourself and have a limited number of pipes per area making routing your loving pipes part of the game would just be too dwarf fortress for me. If we have to lay the pipe ourselves, let it work such that any number of pipes may be in one spot. Better yet, if people want to lay pipes themselves, let it at least be an option, not a requirement. I could understand it for not routing through a volcano or something but otherwise it's tedious.
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Nov 23, 2012 23:00
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I'd like for pipes to be part of the building esthetic. If I'm building an industrial area, I want to hit the "lots n lots of pipes" option. In the more civilized areas I'd want to tone it down. Let me choose as part of the design phase.
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Nov 24, 2012 02:01
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President Ark posted:e2: Bonus bonus points if you can set pipes to be completely transparent while still being able to see things travelling through them so it looks like there's just a bunch of bricks/pigs/urchins/iron bars flying through the air from factory to factory. The Crystal Pipe-Lace!
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Nov 24, 2012 02:35
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I'm glad you guys are using the same music guy this time around. Does he have anything else available? I loved Dredmor, but the music was probably my favorite thing about it.
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Nov 25, 2012 00:46
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A thought just occurred to me this morning, nvining. You've said that you are going to include a sort of built-in mechanism to facilitate succession games, and you've also said that you intend to have a kind of ongoing or perpetual save/character/bureaucrat for each player that extends from game to game and so on. What I'm wondering is whether in a succession game these ongoing bureaucrats will be utilised from player to player - i.e. will they change or join the general population or leave as the save file changes hands or what? For that matter will there be little bureaucratic avatars for the player running about the town even in the normal single-player games?
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Nov 25, 2012 11:21
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Pozzo posted:A thought just occurred to me this morning, nvining. If I learned anything from Gemclod, it's that people's avatars should be allowed to run around in the city after their turn is up. So I don't know entirely how well this will work, as I'm not sure if the bureaucrat is an in-person entity; it might be as simple as your bureaucrat joining the common population after your year is up with a sign saying "Retired Bureaucrat" or something.
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Nov 26, 2012 02:25
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nvining posted:If I learned anything from Gemclod, it's that people's avatars should be allowed to run around in the city after their turn is up. So I don't know entirely how well this will work, as I'm not sure if the bureaucrat is an in-person entity; it might be as simple as your bureaucrat joining the common population after your year is up with a sign saying "Retired Bureaucrat" or something. First migration once the save trades hands has the retired bureaucrat of the previous leader?
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Nov 26, 2012 02:26
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