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SilentD posted:I can't really "otherize" rabbits as I am not a rabbit, this is common sense. You'll forgive us if we don't take you, SilentD, to be the standard of human empathy.
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Dec 7, 2012 01:52
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Emanuel Collective posted:With Morsy going full Mubarak and Tunisia still dealing with unrest between leftists and Islamists, does that mean Libya currently has the brightest outlook of all the Arab Spring countries? Who would've guessed that a year ago? Libya had race based violence against Africans from Arabs, that's hardly a great thing. Furthermore a lot of the fighters and weapons are now in other African nations causing even more violence. I'm not sure if that's better than what's going on in Egypt.
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Dec 7, 2012 02:01
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-Troika- posted:Heh, I remember when people were claiming that the Muslim Brotherhood being in charge in Egypt wouldn't be a bad thing. I saw many, myself among them, hoping. I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt considering they hadn't had legislative power in any part of Egypt before but gently caress this is depressing. Great to see how many are willing to go out on the streets again to try to fight this budding dictatorship. So sad and wasteful that this had to happen again, however. Not really a surprise I guess but it's no big shock that one revolution isn't enough to sort a place out. NLJP fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Dec 7, 2012 |
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Dec 7, 2012 02:10
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SilentD posted:Libya had race based violence against Africans from Arabs, that's hardly a great thing. Furthermore a lot of the fighters and weapons are now in other African nations causing even more violence. In terms of government, Libya's current leadership is not becoming the Ghadafi regime all over again. Morsi isn't fully there yet but he's heading towards the same military-backed ongoing-dictatorship-via-ongoing-emergency that Mubarak had. Libya's just dealing with the same poo poo that happens when a totalitarian government collapses and the replacement leadership doesn't yet have the infrastructure to restore law throughout since it fell apart with the previous regime after getting caught in a war. You have to understand it wasn't like they just laid down the guns after Ghadafi died and put Parliament in session, they had to build their government from the ground up. Were you expecting a loving Libyan Presidential Debate at a school in Tripoli?
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Dec 7, 2012 02:26
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I don't think it makes sense to view this as a transitional period that will lead to some sort of decision. The actions playing out right now will define what the Arab world will be. If the next few years in the Arab world go as poorly as the last few, brain drain and the bleeding of what is left of the Arab secular intellegentsia could be absolutely devastating on all levels of Arab society as it was in Iran. At its face the Islamist rhetoric and action in Egypt is functionally similar to the Arab authoritarian playbook 1950 to present. Take Morsi's general rhetoric: claims that we are encountering foreign plots, there are "elements" of counter-revolutionaries amongst the opposition, we need to "cleanse" institutions of the old guard. This is an excerpt from Gamal Abdul Nasser's article in Foreign Policy in 1955, before the dictatorship in Egypt had been firmly established and there were still hopes that it would return to parliamentarism. He too agrees that there needs to be a transitional period before the people are "ready" for democracy. The Egyptian Revolution Abdel Nasser Foreign Affairs , Vol. 33, No. 2 (Jan., 1955), pp. 199-211 Published by: Council on Foreign Relations quote:…These then are the aims of the revolution. To end the exploitation of people, to realize national aspirations, and to develop the mature political consciousness that is an indispensable preliminary for a sound democracy. The revolution seeks to bridge the gulf between social classes and to foster the spirit of altruism which marks a cultivated individual and a cohesive group. Our ultimate aim is to provide Egypt with a truly democratic and representative government, not the type of parliamentary dictatorship which the Palace and a corrupt “pasha” class imposed on the people. In the past, parliament was a body for blocking social improvement. We want to make sure that in the future the senators and deputies will serve all the Egyptians rather than a few. The "transitional period" to raise the consciousness of the Egyptian people lasted until 2011, of course. Morsi's rhetoric wouldn't be entirely worrying in and of itself and just be simple incompetence if there wasn't a clear pattern emerging that Islamists can and are deploying fascios to attempt to terrorize the opposition into submission, like the assault on the Union Générale in Tunis, or the Islamist militias with shotguns firing on secularists outside the presidential palace in Cairo. az jan jananam fucked around with this message at 02:51 on Dec 7, 2012 |
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Dec 7, 2012 02:27
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Mubaruk, Gaddafi, Assad, and Ben Ali kept their respective countries out of control of Islamists, and look what we have now. Like this is any better?
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Dec 7, 2012 02:37
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Are you genuinely surprised many of the Arab Spring countries were not able to put in place functioning democratic institutions in a year? Read some history bub.
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Dec 7, 2012 02:44
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Pon de Bundy posted:Mubaruk, Gaddafi, Assad, and Ben Ali kept their respective countries out of control of Islamists, and look what we have now. automatic posted:Are you genuinely surprised many of the Arab Spring countries were not able to put in place functioning democratic institutions in a year? Read some history bub.
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Dec 7, 2012 02:48
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Pon de Bundy posted:Mubaruk, Gaddafi, Assad, and Ben Ali kept their respective countries out of control of Islamists, and look what we have now. I suppose a brutal and corrupt kleptocracy/dictatorship would be an acceptable form of government for a casual observer 5000 miles away who's only concern for the countries is making sure scary Muslims aren't allowed to speak their mind or exercise their rights for political gain
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Dec 7, 2012 02:51
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The French would probably be better off if the descendants of Louis XVI were running things. Transition periods simply aren't worth the trouble.
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Dec 7, 2012 02:51
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Pon de Bundy posted:Mubaruk, Gaddafi, Assad, and Ben Ali kept their respective countries out of control of Islamists, and look what we have now. Whether I like it or not is irrelevant. If being run by Islamists is what the people of the country want, so be it - so ask them. I'm not living there.
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Dec 7, 2012 02:52
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I had serious doubts about Morsi and the muslim brotherhood from the beginning. I gave him the benefit of the doubt though. I said to myself, well he was elected democractically. That in of itself is groundbreaking for the middle east. There were ups and downs in his first year in office, but things definitely didnt seem to be going backwards. Then came Operation Pillar of Defense (the recent Israeli/Palestinian battle) and Morsi surprised the hell out of me with how we was instrumental in achieving a cease fire. I thought wow, this guy has really shown himself to be a statesman. I really started to see him in a new light. I thought hey maybe this guy and his party are most definitely not the kind of people I would want running my country, but I think with democracy being so new in the Middle East this is about the best that can be hoped for so far. And then THE DAY AFTER, Morsi pretty much crowns himself king. Ugh..so disappointed.
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Dec 7, 2012 02:53
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Deteriorata posted:Whether I like it or not is irrelevant. If being run by Islamists is what the people of the country want, so be it - so ask them. I'm not living there. I've posted this before, but it's worth repeating- http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index/7365/was-the-arab-spring-really-worth-it_the-fascinatin  Zoology The voyeuristic perspective ought not be missed either. The Arab “Spring” (a misnomer to begin with for reasons that require their own list) is like a spectacle. But not any spectacle. It is a spectacle in which “we” the democrats and “developed” world watch the “others” trying to catch up, despite so many efforts to support their oppressors. Until last week, the voyeurism was sympathetic, even if patrimonial or patronizing. But after the recent events, the voyeurism and subsequent reactions to the violence that killed a US ambassador in Libya turned into something else. It recast the entire spectacle in terms and imagery reminiscent of what we are used to observing in the center’s gaze towards the periphery: a sense of amazement and intrigue that can under certain circumstances quickly turn into something associated with zoology. Was it really worth it to let these creatures out of their cages? After all, look at what they are doing. Only now do we know that fighting for one’s dignity may not have been worthwhile because a bunch of fanatics did what they did.
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Dec 7, 2012 02:57
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Emanuel Collective posted:I suppose a brutal and corrupt kleptocracy/dictatorship would be an acceptable form of government for a casual observer 5000 miles away who's only concern for the countries is making sure scary Muslims aren't allowed to speak their mind or exercise their rights for political gain I am a Muslim, and Muslims speaking their mind is not the issue, it's countries like Tunisia/Egypt falling under control of Saudi educated assholes who will make life pretty lovely for your average not hardcore Muslim. As if women in Egypt don't already have it bad enough.
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Dec 7, 2012 02:58
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I'm slightly late on this but,cymbalrush posted:That hypothetical book would be absolutely fascinating. With regards to Saddam, though, I think he was probably shocked that we ended up invading; that he assumed the US was "in" on the secret truth about his lack of weapons and would back down. That is pretty much exactly what this book is, actually: http://www.amazon.com/Cobra-II-Inside-Invasion-Occupation/dp/1400075394/ It says Saddam did not believe the U.S. was serious, and right up to the invasion he believed Iran was the greater threat. Consequently, he insisted on maintaining plausibility of still having chemical weapons right up to the invasion. His gameplan was basically not have chemical weapons to satisfy the Americans so they wouldn't invade, but imply he did have them to scare Iran. Obviously this did not go as planned. It also says that many in the Saddam regime actually believed they had chemical weapons, due to the general miasma of disinformation and incompetence dictatorships foster. There is an anecdote in there of a Republican Guard general asking how he would defeat the Americans if they did choose to invade, and Saddam saying "stop them just like you did last time!," silencing the general and implying Saddam himself was caught in his own propaganda loop of regime glorifying disinformation. Great book, totally worth a read. Best Friends fucked around with this message at 03:02 on Dec 7, 2012 |
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Dec 7, 2012 02:58
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Pon de Bundy posted:Mubaruk, Gaddafi, Assad, and Ben Ali kept their respective countries out of control of Islamists, and look what we have now. Libya isn't being controlled by Islamists at the moment. In the other places that appears to be what the people want at the moment, and frankly unlike Mubarak and company, I think it's not going to take 35 years to come crashing down. How are things going in Tunisia. I haven't heard anything from there in a long time, last I heard Ennahda was trying to model themselves more like the AKP in Turkey, but that was a long time ago.
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Dec 7, 2012 03:01
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automatic posted:The French would probably be better off if the descendants of Louis XVI were running things. Transition periods simply aren't worth the trouble. Pon de Bundy posted:I am a Muslim, and Muslims speaking their mind is not the issue, it's countries like Tunisia/Egypt falling under control of Saudi educated assholes who will make life pretty lovely for your average not hardcore Muslim. As if women in Egypt don't already have it bad enough. Wait, scratch that. Arright, I can see why you hate the fact that right-wing governments gain control. We all do, but that's the game I'm afraid. Sometimes you have to let them fuckers at the reigns when they get voted in. I wish we could kill them, but alas, we for some reason aren't.
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Dec 7, 2012 03:02
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Pon de Bundy posted:I am a Muslim, and Muslims speaking their mind is not the issue, it's countries like Tunisia/Egypt falling under control of Saudi educated assholes who will make life pretty lovely for your average not hardcore Muslim. As if women in Egypt don't already have it bad enough. Mohammed Morsi was educated in Southern California. Moncef Marzouki, the president of Tunisia, was educated in France... Neither one was educated in Saudi Arabia.
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Dec 7, 2012 03:22
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Charliegrs posted:Mohammed Morsi was educated in Southern California. Moncef Marzouki, the president of Tunisia, was educated in France... Neither one was educated in Saudi Arabia. You know what I meant. Saudi Arabia props up Muslim brotherhood organizations all over the world. But it seems the world as a whole is going more crazy right wing at the moment, the Muslim world is not immune. 
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Dec 7, 2012 03:26
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Pon de Bundy posted:You know what I meant. Saudi Arabia props up Muslim brotherhood organizations all over the world. But it seems the world as a whole is going more crazy right wing at the moment, the Muslim world is not immune. Unless you live in America, where supposedly we are turning into a MARXIST SOCIALIST ATHEIST COMMUNIST LEFTIST state because we want to increase tax rates for rich people from 35% to 39%. Anyway back on topic. Does anyone know what the legality of owning guns in Egypt is? I imagine they have very strict laws against it. The reason I ask is because of all the reports Im hearing of Muslim Brotherhood members on the streets with shotguns. Shouldnt the police or military be arresting them? Of course I know Egypt is sort of lawless right now...
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Dec 7, 2012 03:32
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Charliegrs posted:Unless you live in America, where supposedly we are turning into a MARXIST SOCIALIST ATHEIST COMMUNIST LEFTIST state because we want to increase tax rates for rich people from 35% to 39%. Egyptian gun laws were very strict. But, the recent poo poo that went on in Libya and no government for awhile/a very corrupt country, some people have access to these weapons.
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Dec 7, 2012 04:48
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This video just popped up on Facebook showing 'FSA' soldiers (More like Jihadists on tour) dressed up in Syrian army garb prior to an operation. The best part is their accents, which are distinctly Saudi and Libyan as they joke around about destroying Syria and Assad. I know this because I'm a half Syrian goon. Just shows the type of tactics both sides are deploying. Aren't we glad the media bunches these guys up with the FSA? Love how black and white things are. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=121936134633754
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Dec 7, 2012 05:21
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Best Friends posted:I'm slightly late on this but, I honestly believe that the US knew this and invaded anyway and what's up for debate is the reason.
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Dec 7, 2012 10:21
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The Entire Universe posted:I honestly believe that the US knew this and invaded anyway and what's up for debate is the reason. Pretty sure the reason was DAD ARE YOU PROUD OF ME YET!?!?! Is no news good news when it comes to Tunisia and Libya? Are things progressing well in those countries?
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Dec 7, 2012 14:09
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This is from Tunisia a few days ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEAUjNqvik4
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Dec 7, 2012 14:16
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The Entire Universe posted:I honestly believe that the US knew this and invaded anyway and what's up for debate is the reason. It's pretty obvious that the neo-conservative clique which was in charge at the time wanted to conquer Iraq and then re-make it into an American ally along the lines of Germany or Japan post WWII. Turn a regional threat into a strong regional ally, and even maybe get them to withdraw from OPEC and break the cartel. The big advisers and opinion-shapers that the Bush administration employed (Richard Pearle, Elliott Abrams, Donald Rumsfeld, etc.) had been talking about the idea in theoretical terms for years. I think that they did believe that he was hiding gas somewhere, Colin Powell certainly did, but that was just their most convenient excuse to kick Saddam's door in. If it hadn't been WMDs, it would've been Saddam's support of Hamas or some such thing. Even absent 9/11 I'm convinced that we would've ended up invading Iraq sometime during the Bush years.
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Dec 7, 2012 14:33
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CeeJee posted:This is from Tunisia a few days ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEAUjNqvik4 This is a positive development in Tunisia for a number of reasons. It shows that leftist organizations are organized and once again capable of and willing to cause noticeable disruptions of the right-wing government of Tunisia. It shows that Tunisian labor has changed its position from the quietism of the Ben Ali era. It shows that the Union Generale and labor in general can successfully compel concessions from Ennahdha in the face of a government crackdown.
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Dec 7, 2012 15:15
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Cobra II is right up there with Nixonland as far as being incredibly well researched tales of incredibly horrible things that make you go screaming 'what the gently caress, seriously?' It's really hard to believe people went along with some of that poo poo, but they did.
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Dec 7, 2012 15:48
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How are u posted:Russia doesn't have the capability to end him. I'm pretty sure we're the only ones that do. They could, and easily. A couple of airstrikes to Assad's palace, give some AA weapons to the FSA and help them block the roads to Latakia and Tartus.
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Dec 7, 2012 16:17
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Pon de Bundy posted:Mubaruk, Gaddafi, Assad, and Ben Ali kept their respective countries out of control of Islamists, and look what we have now. Yes.
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Dec 7, 2012 16:31
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OwlBot 2000 posted:They could, and easily. A couple of airstrikes to Assad's palace, give some AA weapons to the FSA and help them block the roads to Latakia and Tartus. By the point at which any major world power would consider overtly "ending" Assad, it wouldn't be that easy. Once he goes underground it will likely be months before he's rooted out. Even major world powers aren't typically assassin-wizards that fly around casually decapitating heads of state -- not even the vile, increasingly-impotent ones who are already on the way out. speng31b fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Dec 7, 2012 |
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Dec 7, 2012 16:40
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OwlBot 2000 posted:They could, and easily. A couple of airstrikes to Assad's palace, give some AA weapons to the FSA and help them block the roads to Latakia and Tartus. Airdropping a bunch of modern anti-tank weapons with drones would have been a cheap and easy/safe way to push this along a lot quicker at the beginning of this conflict but Congress.
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Dec 7, 2012 16:41
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Golbez posted:Yes. And it's another case of blowback for propping up military dictatorships for many years and wondering why the country ends up a dysfunctional angry mess. Or in Libya where you had a leader who used divide and conquer to make people from different regions hate each other making it really hard to build a functional nation state.
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Dec 7, 2012 17:01
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Pedrophile posted:Airdropping a bunch of modern anti-tank weapons with drones would have been a cheap and easy/safe way to push this along a lot quicker at the beginning of this conflict but Congress. We have fully operational cargo drones? Closest thing I could find is this test program which looks to be in its early stages and not at all suitable for deep incursions into hostile territory.
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Dec 7, 2012 17:02
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SedanChair posted:We have fully operational cargo drones? Closest thing I could find is this test program which looks to be in its early stages and not at all suitable for deep incursions into hostile territory. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h46b37E8wCo I was thinking more the Firescout, it was used successfully in Libya and for simple supply missions it can easily be programmed to fly in and drop stuff off and fly back autonomously. Disposable drones like this were pretty much intended to do missions like this. I wouldn't really call it hostile territory when the majority of the people would appreciate the help.
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Dec 7, 2012 17:09
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That sounds like such a completely reckless and terrible idea.
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Dec 7, 2012 17:27
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Kaal posted:That sounds like such a completely reckless and terrible idea. Well the alternative has been a slow civil war with numerous civilian deaths so...
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Dec 7, 2012 17:29
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Pedrophile posted:Well the alternative has been a slow civil war with numerous civilian deaths so... So clearly airdropping in heavy weaponry willy-nilly is the best solution? Our geopolitical instability has been directly caused by the world powers doing exactly that throughout the 20th century - arming their latest favorites and then feigning shock when those weapons end up shaking apart local politics and creating warlords.
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Dec 7, 2012 17:35
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Looks like the FSA is moving to cut off the Regime from it's special Damascus-Moscow Flight supply line. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/08/world/middleeast/syria-conflict-developments.html?hp&_r=0 quote:Rebels Declare Damascus Airport a ‘Fair Target,’ Reports Say
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Dec 7, 2012 17:38
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Kaal posted:So clearly airdropping in heavy weaponry willy-nilly is the best solution? Our geopolitical instability has been directly caused by the world powers doing exactly that throughout the 20th century - arming their latest favorites and then feigning shock when those weapons end up shaking apart local politics and creating warlords. Military bases getting knocked over are going to contribute to free arms regardless, at least by intervening you'd have more direct control over the arms. Giving the rebels some anti tank weapons would have allowed them to tip the scale in their favor earlier on by knocking out check points and shift the fighting style to more infantry based warfare which would have prevented much of the bombing that is currently going on. Also because of our inaction the rebels have been forced to reach out to any group that would offer assistance which has slowly allowed radical islamists to infiltrate the rebel groups and gain more power. I have a feeling that if the military machine were broken earlier we could have avoided much of the deep resentment and retribution which will fall on the Alawites post Assad.
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Dec 7, 2012 17:43
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