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gucci void main posted:Are you questioning whether I think I could find something better in general, or if I took this one and looked to peace out ASAP, or...? If you bail, they'll probably make you repay anything they gave you for relocation (via a clause in your employment contract).
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Dec 20, 2012 03:43
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gucci void main posted:Are you questioning whether I think I could find something better in general, or if I took this one and looked to peace out ASAP, or...? Have you considered applying to be a manager at McDonalds? http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/McDonald-s-New-York-City-Salaries-EI_IE432.0,10_IL.11,24_IM615.htm
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Dec 20, 2012 03:45
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baquerd posted:Have you considered applying to be a manager at McDonalds? He should forward them this.
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Dec 20, 2012 04:41
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nmx posted:He should forward them this. "But that's a manager! Managers need at least 5 years of experience, while your position is entry level. Of COURSE your position pays less."
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Dec 20, 2012 18:17
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hieronymus posted:55k wouldn't be bad "living at your parents and don't have a CS degree so need to get your foot in the door" pay, but for relocating to NYC area it's awful. This was exactly my situation 9 months ago, but Seattle instead of New York. Except my company is actually great to work for and I've got a 401k and full health coverage. Unless you've got a very good reason, run the gently caress away and find another job. 55k is tight enough in Seattle - I can't imagine what it would be like in NYC.
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Dec 20, 2012 20:23
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That McDonalds Manager is probably not being paid enough as well. RAISES FOR EVERYONE! Edit: how does one make ~30k while another makes ~90k
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Dec 20, 2012 21:07
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Chasiubao posted:If you bail, they'll probably make you repay anything they gave you for relocation (via a clause in your employment contract). Good thing they aren't giving him much of anything for relocation.
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Dec 20, 2012 21:08
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Strong Sauce posted:That McDonalds Manager is probably not being paid enough as well. McDonald's is franchised, the 90k one is probably the owner's niece or something.
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Dec 20, 2012 22:34
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To close out my own story, I'm letting everyone know I officially declined the offer. I subsequently received a text message from the tech head (I emailed another person declining) saying "Pretty disappointed that you didn't accept after I got you what you said you wanted". This is just another thing that makes me very glad I turned it down. I'm confident that if I can receive one offer that there will be another in the distant future, and I should not undersell myself.
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Dec 21, 2012 19:47
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gucci void main posted:"Pretty disappointed that you didn't accept after I got you what you said you wanted" Send this guy a picture of your balls.
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Dec 21, 2012 19:50
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Jerry SanDisky posted:Send this guy a picture of your balls. Is that the hills of Iraq?
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Dec 21, 2012 20:54
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gucci void main posted:I subsequently received a text message from the tech head (I emailed another person declining) saying "Pretty disappointed that you didn't accept after I got you what you said you wanted".
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Dec 21, 2012 23:26
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gucci void main posted:To close out my own story, I'm letting everyone know I officially declined the offer. I subsequently received a text message from the tech head (I emailed another person declining) saying "Pretty disappointed that you didn't accept after I got you what you said you wanted". This is just another thing that makes me very glad I turned it down. I'm confident that if I can receive one offer that there will be another in the distant future, and I should not undersell myself. While the offer was embarrassingly low and that is a very passive aggressive SMS which shouldn't be an appropriate medium in this situation anyway, he kind of has a point. You should have either rejected the offer right away or countered with something you were willing to accept.
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Dec 22, 2012 01:53
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Ochowie posted:While the offer was embarrassingly low and that is a very passive aggressive SMS which shouldn't be an appropriate medium in this situation anyway, he kind of has a point. You should have either rejected the offer right away or countered with something you were willing to accept. Kinda vague from gucci void main's posts so I'm not sure if they just offered him X more, or if he asked for X more. Again this is why you should never say a salary number first. It will peg you at a certain range and if you try to ask for more you look like a dick when they felt like they could get you for $Y. Not saying gucci void main did this, but just saying in general that you don't want to set your own price floor.
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Dec 22, 2012 02:25
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gucci did the opposite of this. He didn't mention salary at all. Their offer was $45k with no benefits. He countered $80k. They countered $55k which he declined. So not being the first to say a number didn't work in this case, but not because it's a bad idea - rather because the parties were never going to agree on a number to begin with because enough dolts have signed on for $50k in NYC that this guy thinks that's the going rate for a programmer.
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Dec 22, 2012 02:32
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The whole thing was a learning experience, for certain, and I know I made some mistakes throughout the process, but from now on I'm going to say that I want "a competitive salary" but that I am negotiable based on the package as a whole. I told the guy during our phone call a couple days ago that if they offered 55k, I would take it into consideration, but it would still have to be something I would think about. I never explicitly said "this will do it for me with no questions asked" because there was literally no chance of them going over that amount. I only ever implied that 45k was an absolute "no."
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Dec 22, 2012 03:01
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This is exactly why any time I've ever posted a job ad, I've made sure to put a salary range. If we were hiring from juniors to seniors, the range might be "50-80k DOE". People would still ask for more occasionally, but at least we felt justified telling them no. The tough part was when a junior candidate asked for a lot more than they were worth, but still within the range. There's no nice way to say "Sorry, but you've vastly overestimated your worth"
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Dec 22, 2012 03:47
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Ithaqua posted:This is exactly why any time I've ever posted a job ad, I've made sure to put a salary range. If we were hiring from juniors to seniors, the range might be "50-80k DOE". People would still ask for more occasionally, but at least we felt justified telling them no. 80k for seniors? Where in the US is this?
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Dec 22, 2012 05:13
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Otto Skorzeny posted:gucci did the opposite of this. He didn't mention salary at all. Their offer was $45k with no benefits. He countered $80k. They countered $55k which he declined. So not being the first to say a number didn't work in this case, but not because it's a bad idea - rather because the parties were never going to agree on a number to begin with because enough dolts have signed on for $50k in NYC that this guy thinks that's the going rate for a programmer. If this is true then I apologize about my reading comprehension skills. I thought he countered at 55k based on the text that the developer sent. If that didn't happen then they're just passive agressive assholes and he shouldn't worry about it going forward.
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Dec 22, 2012 06:21
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Strong Sauce posted:Kinda vague from gucci void main's posts so I'm not sure if they just offered him X more, or if he asked for X more. I read up on negotiations a while back and the "Anchoring Bias" disagrees with you. That being said, I've never negotiated pay before but I feel that saying a number first may be more advantageous for you than you think.
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Dec 22, 2012 06:26
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Lenin Stimpy posted:80k for seniors? Where in the US is this? It was northwestern NJ. The company was a little bit on the cheap side, although they were pretty generous with equipment, tools, and career development. Working there for 3 years was the best career move I ever made, though, since I became very good friends with the CTO who has been an incredible mentor. So I guess that's good advice for the newbies: Networking is important. This guy has said to me on many occasions that any time he changes jobs, I'll be the first person he calls to recruit. And he's followed through on it once already.
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Dec 22, 2012 07:22
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^ I was kinda in the same situation. I was at an internship that was great. Amazing people, great boss, somewhat interesting work. Halfway through the internship my boss pulled me into a meeting and said he wanted to sign me. The offer they came back with was $42k with health/vision/dental insurance paid for (note: canadian, so our "health" insurance isn't quite like the american version). I laughed at him. Countered with $50k and walked. Guess they were aiming too high. They poached a community college grad with a few years experience from a poo poo company. It should also be noted that they had just lost out on another SE to a local job competitor. Private industry always should pay more than government, and they were $16k below parity for government services, $18k below parity for the health authority. Happy I walked. A bunch of large shops are opening here soon too so it should be interesting.
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Dec 22, 2012 19:59
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gucci void main posted:The whole thing was a learning experience, for certain, and I know I made some mistakes throughout the process, but from now on I'm going to say that I want "a competitive salary" but that I am negotiable based on the package as a whole. If an employer opens salary negotiation with something really unreasonably low, I feel the conversation is pretty much over anyway. Even if YOU manage to bargain them up to a reasonable pay ... a lot of other employees won't, and most of your co-workers will either be terrible at their jobs or miserable at their lovely pay (mostly the former, sometimes both).
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Dec 23, 2012 21:01
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Gucci, if you want some petty (and justified) revenge, you could always post an interview review of the company on Glassdoor. This would also have the benefit of helping other potential canidates know what they're getting into.
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Dec 24, 2012 04:01
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how much do you guys value good working conditions? i work at a company where my managers know what they are talking about (i.e. knowledgeable both about programming and about management), i don't have a lot of interruptions, the company is lenient about when you can come in in the morning, i almost never have to stay late, the kitchen is stocked with snacks, the company has a toolchain which i enjoy using (bsd/python shop), and there are even a couple of people here that i would esteem "very smart." the only problem is i believe (as a grad ~7 months out of school) i am getting paid 10k below what i should be getting paid (this being a sizeable % of my salary in a time where I should be saving money/paying off student loans) e: to be more specific, i am making 60k working in nyc. i think i should have said at least 10k, since despite programmers being eternally dumb i think i am better off than most recent grads as a result of doing a lot of coding in my spare time (in the last 5 months, i've written a compiler, an emulator, and a chess engine). i would have readily left this job despite all the factors listed above if it wasn't for two things- i'm decent enough with my finances where despite living by myself and putting 10% of my pay to my 401k, i am able to save up roughly $1k every month and that i would generally trade off lower salary for a low stress job (obviously to an extent, or else i wouldn't make this post) Pie Colony fucked around with this message at 01:58 on Dec 28, 2012 |
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Dec 28, 2012 00:14
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Pie Colony posted:how much do you guys value good working conditions? i work at a company where my managers know what they are talking about (i.e. knowledgeable both about programming and about management), i don't have a lot of interruptions, the company is lenient about when you can come in in the morning, i almost never have to stay late, the kitchen is stocked with snacks, the company has a toolchain which i enjoy using (bsd/python shop), and there are even a couple of people here that i would esteem "very smart." the only problem is i believe (as a grad ~7 months out of school) i am getting paid 10k below what i should be getting paid (this being a sizeable % of my salary in a time where I should be saving money/paying off student loans) Everyone will have a different answer to this, so I'll just relate my own experience. I took a pay cut moving to my current job because I liked the team, technologies, and conditions better. When I made the move I had no debt other than a couple grand left on my car. I was comfortable making less money because I didn't have a pressing need for money, and I needed a change for my sanity. You're in an industry that is still relatively easy to move around in, so there can be some value in taking a worse job for a while to make money, and vice versa.
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Dec 28, 2012 00:39
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Pie Colony posted:the company is lenient about when you can come in in the morning, i almost never have to stay late If you go interviewing, I suggest asking people to estimate how many hours their engineers work. A lot of places think that 60 hours/week is standard. A 60 hour week and a $10k pay-raise is more for you per-year, but a pretty significant cut in your effective hourly rate.
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Dec 28, 2012 03:02
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Mniot posted:If you go interviewing, I suggest asking people to estimate how many hours their engineers work. A lot of places think that 60 hours/week is standard. A 60 hour week and a $10k pay-raise is more for you per-year, but a pretty significant cut in your effective hourly rate. this is a good point. i would effectively make $90k if i were to work 60 hours, which sounds a lot nicer but not having enough free time would definitely drive me crazy and make me burn out a lot faster. it sucks because on one hand there is the whole "work as much as possible when you first start since you're healthy, it can really kick-start your career, and you'll learn a lot" but on the other hand there is "gently caress it and buy a motorcycle, drive upstate to go hiking with your girlfriend, and do drugs because you should stave off becoming a boring adult for as long as possible." e; typing that last part out actually decided it for me Pie Colony fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Dec 28, 2012 |
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Dec 28, 2012 03:24
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Personally I'd take management and coworkers I respect over incompetent people any day, even if it means a pay cut. That said, don't fall into the trap of thinking that your coworkers are the only smart coworkers, your office kitchen is the only one stocked with snacks, etc -- because it might very well be possible to find a job that has all of that AND a better salary. I personally worked in a situation that sounds like yours and ended up staying far too long because I convinced myself the grass couldn't be greener. After a few years of "sorry, no raises..." I finally interviewed around and saw how much money I was leaving on the table. My current job has more pressure and different perks (they don't stock treats but do treat us to stock) but at the end of the day I don't regret the move. Basically just don't let yourself get complacent. It's wonderful to be happy with where you are now, but always think about moving forward, or at least keep it in the back of your mind. Ask yourself "in one/two/... years if I don't get a raise of $X/options/whatever else, what's my plan?"
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Dec 28, 2012 06:24
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Pie Colony posted:how much do you guys value good working conditions? i work at a company where my managers know what they are talking about (i.e. knowledgeable both about programming and about management), i don't have a lot of interruptions, the company is lenient about when you can come in in the morning, i almost never have to stay late, the kitchen is stocked with snacks, the company has a toolchain which i enjoy using (bsd/python shop), and there are even a couple of people here that i would esteem "very smart." the only problem is i believe (as a grad ~7 months out of school) i am getting paid 10k below what i should be getting paid (this being a sizeable % of my salary in a time where I should be saving money/paying off student loans) Try sitting down with your manager and bringing up that you love the workplace, but want to discuss compensation. Figure out exactly what you want and where you'd be satisfied ahead of time. They might have better advice than any of us could given your specifics if they're good managers. Pweller fucked around with this message at 14:45 on Dec 28, 2012 |
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Dec 28, 2012 14:43
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awesmoe posted:If you started looking for jobs paying 55k in NYC how hard to you think it would be to find one better than this? Just an example, I turned down a job with a consulting company in Jacksonville, FL who offered me 53.3. This is in a city with a cost of living index that is slightly less than the national average and NYC is easily twice that value. Not that the wages will necessarily scale linearly, but 55k is a joke, much less 45k. I guess we've pretty much covered that though.
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Dec 31, 2012 12:27
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e; wrong thread.
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Dec 31, 2012 16:41
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Crossposted from BFC:Animal Mother posted:I graduated with a BS in Computer Engineering in 2008, and until late 2011 I was working as a web developer. I left that job to move to a different state and spent the next year working on a PC game prototype that I was unable to turn into a marketable product because I failed to secure funding (http://kck.st/U5YWWR
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Jan 3, 2013 22:32
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) . Now I'm looking for an entry-level dev job and I don't know how to avoid a year-long employment gap on my résumé. Is it disingenuous to present what I've been doing as a job because I never actually got paid? I didn't register a d/b/a or anything. Is it OK to put "Game Developer: Self Employed" under Experience? It seems like on the one hand a 25K LOC project I've done on my own looks really good, but on the other a huge employment gap looks really bad. I just have no idea how to present this. What does seem certain is that my résumé is going straight to the trash if the first thing someone sees is that I haven't drawn a paycheck since 2011.
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Animal Mother posted:Crossposted from BFC: You worked on something for a year, presumably as a full-time job. Just because it didn't pan out doesn't mean it's not work experience.
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Jan 3, 2013 22:33
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Self-employment is still employment. Similarly, volunteer work is still work (as in, it doesn't matter how much money you made). Did you learn anything in that year? Improve your coding skills or at the very least not lose them through lack of use? That's a year of experience in my book. Also, did anything you wrote function on even a basic level? Get any kind of basic game engine functioning, even partially? Implement any commonly-seen game algorithms like pathfinding, collision detection, etc.? Put stuff like that on your resume in bullet points. For example: 2011-2012 Game Developer (Self-Employed) -Created game engine in <language> -Implemented <algorithm> Stuff like that. When you don't have a lot under your belt, emphasize the best parts of what you do have.
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Jan 3, 2013 23:57
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The expected value of a candidate with such experience is greater than that of a candidate with one year of experience working at a typical company.
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Jan 4, 2013 00:11
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Would you really put "implemented <a specific algorithm>" on a CV? I've always found algorithm implementation fairly easy. A lot of them are even explained in terms of pseudocode.
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Jan 4, 2013 12:05
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Depends on the algorithm, and how they implemented it. For example, there is quite a lot to talk about in a travelling salesman solver. Entire Books have been written. Even something like quick sort can merit a paper of its own.
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Jan 4, 2013 13:07
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qntm posted:Would you really put "implemented <a specific algorithm>" on a CV? I've always found algorithm implementation fairly easy. A lot of them are even explained in terms of pseudocode. Some algorithms require more work to implement. For example, at my office we have our own implementation of the Lloyd-Topor transformation, which converts more complex logical formulas into a normalized form. The algorithm itself is dead-simple (it's just "see pattern X replace with pattern Y, repeat"), but there's no standard way of representing logic formulae internally in your system, so anyone who uses the algorithm is going to have to implement it themselves. Further, the algorithm deals purely with logic and so it's pretty abstract. In any given implementation, there are many potential optimization points (and the transform is definitely worth optimizing for us). I'd bet that if you looked at 5 implementations of Lloyd-Topor from 5 systems, they'd look nothing alike. If you had "Lloyd-Topor" on your resume then some small set of companies (like mine) would get really excited. But even at a company that didn't have anything to do with logic, you'd be able to explain how this is an example of specializing an algorithm to a specific implementation and you could talk about how you knew that optimizing this was a good idea and then how you went about it, and so on. For something like quick sort, I have a harder time imagining a case of being impressed by someone writing their own implementation. But if you were just out of college and had done a little personal project involving implementing various sort algorithms (maybe in different languages?) I could see that being a neat thing to talk about. Which is the main thing, outside of keyword-spamming. If you can talk about something you did for at least 5 minutes it can definitely go on a resume.
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Jan 4, 2013 14:58
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qntm posted:Would you really put "implemented <a specific algorithm>" on a CV? I've always found algorithm implementation fairly easy. A lot of them are even explained in terms of pseudocode. "Implemented quantum bogosort"
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Jan 4, 2013 15:48
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