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Fag Boy Jim posted:Well, the good news is that this isn't Fallout 3, having a middling Guns skill doesn't mean you're going to lose out on a ton of damage. The lack of gun-related perks (especially perks that help deal with high DT enemies) will probably be your biggest problem. DLC quests give you a ton of XP points, so try to deal with that as you go along. The bad news is that OWB is really stingy with bullets. Which is why weapons like the Proton Axe are really good. Even with crappy mellee skills, it usually only takes two or three swings from the axe to kill roboscorpions, compared to unloading a clip on them without doing much damage. Just remember to back away after killing them, since they blow up after you kill them. thrakkorzog fucked around with this message at 09:28 on Feb 6, 2013 |
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achillesforever6 posted:I couldn't choose the slave side, what the gently caress are they going to do that would improve the region? At least Ashur has a plan that I could follow regardless of the cost of human decency. Well, the slaves want you to kill Ashur and his band of murderous rapists, I'd call that a significant improvement!
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Feb 6, 2013 08:58
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I'm doing my second attempt at ironmanning/extra-hardcore with various difficulty and realism tweaks (second lengthy attempt, anyway, I've had many of them end early to a random powder charge or radscorpion). Were there always several deathclaws (possibly young?) patrolling the road about halfway between Vegas and Bitter Springs? I know there were some at Gypsum Train Yard, but I don't remember running into them north of there, ambling around out in the open. I could easily be misremembering because I haven't been up here in forever.
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Feb 6, 2013 09:05
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The Pitt's moral dilemma doesn't even make sense. I'm not just talking about the baby thing, you find out near the end that Ashur doesn't even want to use slaves but without them they couldn't keep the place running. As one of the apparently very few locations with large-scale manufacturing capabilities on the east coast, this is kind of a huge deal in post-apocalyptia. Then at the end when you kill all the slavers, no one seems to mention or care that the lack of labor will grind things to a halt and make it another random hellhole where people will start stabbing each other for snack cakes inside a few months. Either Ashur is lying (to himself, since this information is in his personal journal) or Bethesda hosed up their own idea. I think it annoys me because it's such an interesting concept and actually could be a really well-done morally gray concept; a BoS paladin turned noble dictator, committing evil towards a greater life for everyone, loathing slavery but needing it just to keep society going, protecting his daughter even though her death could save everyone. But they drop the ball so incredibly hard and the whole 'baby as possible cure' thing makes even less sense when stealing the baby involves you taking it from it's clean home watched over by it's scientist mother to a lovely slave shack watched over by a random slave and also this will somehow get the cure faster maybe (?) makes Ashur not only seem like the better choice for players who like cool locations and characters but the more moral choice in every way.
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Feb 6, 2013 09:21
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Wolfsheim posted:The Pitt's moral dilemma doesn't even make sense. I'm not just talking about the baby thing, you find out near the end that Ashur doesn't even want to use slaves but without them they couldn't keep the place running. As one of the apparently very few locations with large-scale manufacturing capabilities on the east coast, this is kind of a huge deal in post-apocalyptia. Then at the end when you kill all the slavers, no one seems to mention or care that the lack of labor will grind things to a halt and make it another random hellhole where people will start stabbing each other for snack cakes inside a few months. Either Ashur is lying (to himself, since this information is in his personal journal) or Bethesda hosed up their own idea. I really don't know how you could see the faction that engages in slavery, raiding of nearby innocents outside the pit, and keeps the child slavers of the Capital Wasteland in business as the "more moral" choice. The only way I could see that being the case is if you think a gun factory is more valuable than thousands of human lives.
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Feb 6, 2013 09:55
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I've played through OWB several times and like others have said the proton axe (and inversal axe) is your pal when dealing with robotic enemies. Sometimes you just have to run and hide though - enemies respawn in the outside areas so often that you'll go nuts and run out of ammo if you try to kill them all. You can run away from most enemies and they will "forget" about you so you can fast travel, or sneak away. Plenty of .308 ammo of all types and backup armor are good things to bring when you start OWB. The ammo is scarce and enemies pack firepower that shreds combat armor.
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Feb 6, 2013 10:22
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Reveilled posted:I really don't know how you could see the faction that engages in slavery, raiding of nearby innocents outside the pit, and keeps the child slavers of the Capital Wasteland in business as the "more moral" choice. The only way I could see that being the case is if you think a gun factory is more valuable than thousands of human lives. To put it back in terms of the original author's point - it's all about the situation. In the current world's point of view, of course, it's morally evil. But if through enslavement you are able to start to rebuild civilization, and better people's lives - is that worth it?
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Feb 6, 2013 10:40
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Ashur is basically Caesar with an actual game plan that's grounded in the reality he lives in.
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Feb 6, 2013 10:42
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Wasse posted:To put it back in terms of the original author's point - it's all about the situation. In the current world's point of view, of course, it's morally evil. But if through enslavement you are able to start to rebuild civilization, and better people's lives - is that worth it? But is there any evidence at all that Ashur is actually bettering people's lives? Ashur abducts people into an infected hellhole that sterilises them and turns them into monstrious abominations, he keeps the child slavers at Paradise Falls in business, loots and burns nearby areas, and rules over an upper class of people who appear to have no actual civilisation building skills, the only thing they can do is kill and steal using the guns and bullets the slaves who run their factory manufacture for them. I'm not seeing Ashur's endgame here. A civilised society isn't going to emerge magically out of the ether and smog of the Pitt. It's a town of slaving raiders, and unless someone wipes them out it will always be a town of slaving raiders.
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Feb 6, 2013 11:17
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mango sentinel posted:Excuse me, it's 55. Much like real life if you are attacked by a bunch of brainless monsters your words will get you nowhere 
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Feb 6, 2013 15:31
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Reveilled posted:But is there any evidence at all that Ashur is actually bettering people's lives? Ashur abducts people into an infected hellhole that sterilises them and turns them into monstrious abominations, he keeps the child slavers at Paradise Falls in business, loots and burns nearby areas, and rules over an upper class of people who appear to have no actual civilisation building skills, the only thing they can do is kill and steal using the guns and bullets the slaves who run their factory manufacture for them. Yeah, but in the context of what the Pitt was before the BoS rolled through that was so terrible that they speak of the Capital Wasteland fondly, a stable society producing anything is kind of worth saving. If you liberate the slaves Wernher is no closer to curing their sterilization then Ashur (probably farther away, since the baby is no longer being studied by a scientist) so that just means the Pitt degenerates into what it was that much from faster. Any semblance of society will collapse very shortly due to the fact that the sterile community cannot in anyway thrive. So, I mean, sure it's a short-term victory over the forces of evil, but at the cost of long-term society and an extremely rare and valuable pre-war technology.
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Feb 6, 2013 19:51
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H'okay, so after doing Lonesome Road I decided that I didn't really want to bother finishing the main quest with my latest character but at the same time I didn't want to just leave him standing slackjawed at the canyon wreckage either. So I decided a fitting ending would be to rob the strip, go on the biggest heist in the Mojave's history. I even dressed up for it in a pre war suit and hat, used a .45 SMG for appearances and because I felt this would help make things more exciting considering my high level. Biggest disappointment ever. Not one casino has a single goddamn cap in any of their safes, all I found were a handful of chems and some prewar money. I made more money gambling. Did get me thinking though, after I had destroyed my reputation gunning people down in the streets, what happens when you kill all the main quest NPCs? Yes Man, House and that diplomat at the NCR embassy were all dead by the time I got bored. What happens if I load that save and go kill Ceaser too?
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Feb 6, 2013 19:58
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Yes Man downloads into another Securitron every time. He's the one way you can always finish the game no matter what you do.
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Feb 6, 2013 20:03
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Thanks everyone for the suggestion of the Axe. Even though I have poop unarmed and (thank you Spineless) 5 Str, I have no problem with Scorpions due to the knockback. Poor Joshua's Armor was constantly taking a beating though, I've probably spent over 10k repairing it. Before I go the axe though, the first two fetch quests that send you over by the Forbidden Zone were super touch and go. The botannical area I had 5 Gutsys trailing me, ran up the stairs, killed the pod guys in two shots each, grabbed the holotape, jumped out the back window, slid down the cliff, and fast traveled out. Since finding the axe and dumping some more points into stealth, I haven't had to deal with more than two enemies at a time and things are going much more smooth. I have Wild Wasteland and if it weren't for the swirly icon and music, I wouldn't be able to tell what in OWB was supposed to be that way and what the perk added, tbq. I choked on my drink when I heard "Hey, who turned out the lights?" Wolfsheim posted:Yeah, but in the context of what the Pitt was before the BoS rolled through that was so terrible that they speak of the Capital Wasteland fondly, a stable society producing anything is kind of worth saving. If you liberate the slaves Wernher is no closer to curing their sterilization then Ashur (probably farther away, since the baby is no longer being studied by a scientist) so that just means the Pitt degenerates into what it was that much from faster. Any semblance of society will collapse very shortly due to the fact that the sterile community cannot in anyway thrive. I'd rather humanity scratch out an doomed existence in caves than enslave each other 
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Feb 6, 2013 20:05
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Reveilled posted:But is there any evidence at all that Ashur is actually bettering people's lives? Ashur abducts people into an infected hellhole that sterilises them and turns them into monstrious abominations, he keeps the child slavers at Paradise Falls in business, loots and burns nearby areas, and rules over an upper class of people who appear to have no actual civilisation building skills, the only thing they can do is kill and steal using the guns and bullets the slaves who run their factory manufacture for them. The Pit is a pathetic attempt at moral ambiguity. Any amount of analysis causes the entire DLC to fall apart. Why is the Pitt and by extension the cure important? The game claims that the Pitt has a "thriving industry." An industry incapable of producing anything save ammunition. All of the weapons featured in the Pitt were salvaged or stolen. Ignoring the existence of homemade bullets, Pre-war ammunition is plentiful. This is a contrived solution to a nonexistent problem.
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Feb 6, 2013 21:11
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The more I play it the more I enjoy Fallout 3... it's... getting better the more I go. I don't think it was just rose-colored glasses after all. The 10 mm pistol feels like a popgun compared to its equivalent in New Vegas. I think that's because FO3 doesn't have 9mm... Speedball fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Feb 6, 2013 |
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Feb 6, 2013 21:13
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Withdrawal Plans posted:I've played through OWB several times and like others have said the proton axe (and inversal axe) is your pal when dealing with robotic enemies. Sometimes you just have to run and hide though - enemies respawn in the outside areas so often that you'll go nuts and run out of ammo if you try to kill them all. You can run away from most enemies and they will "forget" about you so you can fast travel, or sneak away. I finished OWB with excessive use of unique LAER and weapon repair kits. But there was one thing that was always impossible, sneaking. Even with 100 sneak things would detect me from the other side of a indoor area even if I was crawling (with the silent running perk). Instant danger if I wasn't. Probably the worst part of OWB since I rely so much on sneak crits. If it wasn't for Dr. Bouros or whatever I probably wouldn't have caught on with how twisted and doomed the brains were and they would all still be alive. I am dense, but in my defense O, Dala, and 8 didn't seem so bad. (Mobius got his as well).
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Feb 6, 2013 22:15
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Merry Magpie posted:The Pit is a pathetic attempt at moral ambiguity. Any amount of analysis causes the entire DLC to fall apart. It's plentiful in the game, to the player. That doesn't mean it's plentiful in the story/setting. I also don't remember anyone saying they only make ammo; it's a steel mill isn't it? I do agree that the Pitt isn't so important that people need to be living there and turning into horrible monsters. The choice should really have been to help Ashur with his hopes of curing the sickness and making the Pitt a good place to live or freeing the slaves so they can leave the loving hellhole. But then you wouldn't have had to kidnap a baby.
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Feb 6, 2013 22:30
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Speedball posted:The more I play it the more I enjoy Fallout 3... it's... getting better the more I go. I don't think it was just rose-colored glasses after all. The Devs in New Vegas actually tried to balance weapons based on the power of their real-world calibers, which is why they buffed 10mm, added 9mm as a replacement low-tier ammo, and got rid of .32 entirely (Because it was completely ludicrous).
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Feb 6, 2013 22:40
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Wolfsheim posted:Yeah, but in the context of what the Pitt was before the BoS rolled through that was so terrible that they speak of the Capital Wasteland fondly, a stable society producing anything is kind of worth saving. If you liberate the slaves Wernher is no closer to curing their sterilization then Ashur (probably farther away, since the baby is no longer being studied by a scientist) so that just means the Pitt degenerates into what it was that much from faster. Any semblance of society will collapse very shortly due to the fact that the sterile community cannot in anyway thrive. But there's no semblance of society in the Pitt to collapse. There's no culture. There's no learning. Just a man ruling over a band of murderous slavers, and a large number of extremely opressed people being forced to make bullets. This rare and valuable pre-war technology isn't being used for anything of actual worth, it's being used to make bullets and basically nothing else that we see. And for that matter, a steel mill is pretty goddamn useless on its own! The people of the pitt don't have a source of steel other than scrap, hell, even if they had access to coal and iron mines, and a limestone quarry, do they have access to coke ovens? Can they make Pig Iron? Do they even know how to make steel? The only thing in the Pitt that's worth saving are the slaves. Ashur's raider state isn't a "society" worthy of saving, it's a bankrupt plague ridden parasite that the surrounding environs would benefit from having wiped out. The Steel Mill is a useless piece of pre-war tech for building a society. It would conceiveably be useful for a pre-existing society that had the infrastructure to supply a steel mill, but a society like that is probably capable of building its own steel mills. Merry Magpie posted:The Pit is a pathetic attempt at moral ambiguity. Any amount of analysis causes the entire DLC to fall apart. Exactly, the moral ambiguity just isn't there. There's no benefit to the Pitt's continued existence, short or long term, it's a blight on the land. I think it's pretty obvious that the point of moral ambiguity in the Pitt was originally intended to be "is freedom worth murdering an innocent child for?", because it's really the only thing about the story that would be morally complex, but since Bethesda apparently couldn't go through with that because it would mean killing children, all you're left with is a slave uprising against an extra large gang of raiders in a bullet factory.
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Feb 6, 2013 22:42
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It's really cool how in Fallout 3 you can find Mini-Nukes everywhere like it ain't no thing. Random convenience store? Mini-nuke! Overturned truck filled with junk? Mini-nuke! In a Hotel closet? Mini-nuke! Woo! They really, really wanted you to use the Fat Man. Also this totally explains why the setting is still a horrible desolate wasteland- folks are just finding these stupid things everywhere and using them on each other!
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Feb 6, 2013 22:49
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mango sentinel posted:Thanks everyone for the suggestion of the Axe. Even though I have poop unarmed and (thank you Spineless) 5 Str, I have no problem with Scorpions due to the knockback. Poor Joshua's Armor was constantly taking a beating though, I've probably spent over 10k repairing it. Before I go the axe though, the first two fetch quests that send you over by the Forbidden Zone were super touch and go. The botannical area I had 5 Gutsys trailing me, ran up the stairs, killed the pod guys in two shots each, grabbed the holotape, jumped out the back window, slid down the cliff, and fast traveled out. Since finding the axe and dumping some more points into stealth, I haven't had to deal with more than two enemies at a time and things are going much more smooth. Old World Blues absolutely shits money. Axes worth 3500 caps that can be repaired with items worth 100 caps are everywhere. You'll get your 10k back, don't worry.
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Feb 6, 2013 23:39
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God, I miss Jury-rigging so bad. At least all the raider armors are compatible with one another.
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Feb 6, 2013 23:40
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In spite of everything else about it one thing I have to give Fallout 3 credit for is just how starkly the Capital Wasteland compares to the Mojave (or hell, California in general). On the west coast you at least have some semblance of society to turn to when things get rough: NCR, Mr. House, Ceaser's Legion or even one of the big caravan companies. But there is nothing like that at all in the east coast, just a bunch of small, unaffiliated settlements scattered across the wastes, barely making ends meat. Most are no larger than a single structure (Rivet City, The Pentagon, Tenpenny Tower) or a handful of shacks run by crazy people (Republic of Dave). Civilization around DC is basically at the same level as we saw in Fallout 1 and hasn't moved forward at all in about 200 years while the rest of the world has been steadily expanding and rebuilding. Maybe I'm giving Bethesda too much credit and this was all just lack of imagination on their part but I think it's kind of appropriate that the former capitol of the old world's largest and most belligerent nation looks much worse off than the rest of the continent.
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Feb 7, 2013 00:43
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Reveilled posted:Exactly, the moral ambiguity just isn't there. There's no benefit to the Pitt's continued existence, short or long term, it's a blight on the land. I think it's pretty obvious that the point of moral ambiguity in the Pitt was originally intended to be "is freedom worth murdering an innocent child for?", because it's really the only thing about the story that would be morally complex, but since Bethesda apparently couldn't go through with that because it would mean killing children, all you're left with is a slave uprising against an extra large gang of raiders in a bullet factory. It is more fundamental than that. The moral quandary of the Pitt is "are the lives and liberty of hundreds worth kidnapping a child?" Neither party has any interest in harming the baby. Since her mother is the sole resident with any scientific training, the slaves could only hope to ransom her for their freedom. Instead, Bethesda forces a false choice. The player must murder one side or the other. The child is completely irrelevant. Things become asinine when you learn that the freed slaves intend to stay in the Pitt. The person capable of synthesizing a cure is dead. Sterility and cognitive degeneration apparently do not matter. There is no ambiguity here. Every adult in the Pitt deserves to die or is too stupid to live. Merry Magpie fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Feb 7, 2013 |
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Feb 7, 2013 01:19
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Broose posted:
I went from thinking "haha Dala is like a serial killer" to, after a short pause, "oh poo poo Dala is a serial killer." Walking in on the lab with the bodies being cut up and reading terminal entries about all the towns being raided, and passing through the concentration camp really drove home how monstrous all the scientists are. The only one who may have come out clean is Zero, due entirely to being too incompetent to murder anything but robots. But then I just see him as Dr. Venture anyway who is pretty much a monster so that all works out in the end (for their death warrants).
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Feb 7, 2013 02:00
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Just went in to Vault 11 again. Is there ever an explanation for the dead NCR trooper found in a hallway not far past the entrance? Always wondered about him. There's also a dead NCR trooper with a radiation suit some distance away from the entrance to Vault 34, but maybe he was just the last guy the sharecroppers asked about helping fix their radiation problem, I can't think of any information or quests that tie the NCR to Vault 11 at all.
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Feb 7, 2013 02:17
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Okay, I decided to give Fallout 3 another try and maybe it's just my relative unfamiliarity with it compared to New Vegas, but I'm actually teetering on the brink of no ammo all the time. It feels like there's fewer merchants to dump stuff on and buy ammo from, though the mod I got that expands Arefu adds a few sorely-needed vendors who stock guns and such. Otherwise it's Moira, Mick and Ralph, and... hmm. The caravaneers? Oh, and the Brotherhood of Steel quartermaster once you're that deep into the main quest, but I'm pretty much messing around and doing Moira's jobs, because I still think that her quest chain is one of the coolest in either game. (Moira is also an argument for the necessity of Fallout: Minneapolis.)
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Feb 7, 2013 03:33
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There's several merchants on the carrier. The weapons guys stock about 3 mini nukes every day or so too, if you want to wander the wastes in easy mode.
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Feb 7, 2013 04:29
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I loved that marketplace in Rivet City. A whole bunch of merchants all grouped together, like the Wal-Mart of the wastes. One stealth boy and I'd cleaned out the shelves, gone vastly over my weight limit, and my karma was in the toilet.
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Feb 7, 2013 04:36
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Best Friends posted:There's several merchants on the carrier. The weapons guys stock about 3 mini nukes every day or so too, if you want to wander the wastes in easy mode. Yeah, that's Mick and Ralph. I dunno, in New Vegas there's merchants spread out over the map (and one of them is Vendotron!) but vanilla FO3 doesn't have too many. I think you can get some vendors in Canterbury Commons if you follow up on the quests there but I never have.
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Feb 7, 2013 04:41
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The Rivet City market was good if you like hearing 20 NPCs tell you to stop looking at their stuff on loop.
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Feb 7, 2013 04:41
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Pope Guilty posted:Yeah, that's Mick and Ralph. I dunno, in New Vegas there's merchants spread out over the map (and one of them is Vendotron!) but vanilla FO3 doesn't have too many. I think you can get some vendors in Canterbury Commons if you follow up on the quests there but I never have. I haven't played Fallout 3 nearly as much as New Vegas (something like 25 hours compared to 500+ in New Vegas) but I remember the merchant area in Rivet City. I liked that there is a separate entrance from the main map that leads directly there so you don't have to go through the main part of Rivet City, very convenient. I don't remember it being called Mick and Ralph, though, and I'd think I'd remember that as Mick and Ralph's is a shop in Freeside in New Vegas.
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Feb 7, 2013 04:45
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ClearAirTurbulence posted:I haven't played Fallout 3 nearly as much as New Vegas (something like 25 hours compared to 500+ in New Vegas) but I remember the merchant area in Rivet City. I liked that there is a separate entrance from the main map that leads directly there so you don't have to go through the main part of Rivet City, very convenient. I don't remember it being called Mick and Ralph, though, and I'd think I'd remember that as Mick and Ralph's is a shop in Freeside in New Vegas. Bah, you're right. I'm thinking of Flak and Shrapnel, the gun dealers in the Rivet City Market.
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Feb 7, 2013 04:47
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On that note, my favorite Treeminder was No Bark Noonan. 
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Feb 7, 2013 04:54
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Pope Guilty posted:Bah, you're right. I'm thinking of Flak and Shrapnel, the gun dealers in the Rivet City Market.
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Feb 7, 2013 05:01
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I guess if there had been more Legion areas in New Vegas as originally planned, there would have been a Paradise Falls-like "let's capture these guys and sell them as slaves!" mechanic?
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Feb 7, 2013 05:10
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Tupperwarez posted:a.k.a. the best store in FO3, because it allows me to say sentences like "drat, low on ammo. Better go to the grounded aircraft carrier in the Potomac and buy more from those gay weapons dealers." Rivet City was one of the brighter spots in Fallout 3. It was extremely defensible, had several merchants grouped together (and not traveling the wastes getting ruined by deathclaws, I mean, of all the bullshit essential NPCs in Fallout 3 you'd think they'd be at the top of the drat list) and I believe it's the only point in the game where someone brings up trying to grow vegetables, rather than ransacking old grocery stores for a centuries-old packet of potato chips. Basically, it's the most believable settlement in the game. And I like that Butch hangs out there because he's the best follower.
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Feb 7, 2013 05:16
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Oh yeah, and when I got to the supermarket I was all annoyed because holy poo poo a yao-guai! How the gently caress am I supposed to kill a yao-guai with my little peashooter and my armored vault suit? It was cool though- it was a tame yao-guai that belonged to a scavenger. It wrecked the bandits hanging around outside like it was nothing and then curled up and went to sleep. I tried to push it over to the door so I could try and get it into the supermarket, but it wouldn't enter with me.
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Feb 7, 2013 05:34
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The Crotch posted:Old World Blues absolutely shits money. Axes worth 3500 caps that can be repaired with items worth 100 caps are everywhere. You'll get your 10k back, don't worry.
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Feb 7, 2013 07:52
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