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Chorocojo
Sep 25, 2005

Legendary Enchantment Creature -- Bird God
The best R&Ds Lair is to use Enter the Dungeon, which make you start a subgame under the table, with Revelation, which states "Players play with their hands on the table."

AJ_Impy posted:

Been a while since we brought up Magic oddities.


It's worth noting that if there isn't a stated quality, you have to find a target. If you're looking for '3 cards', you need to find them or run out of cards trying. But if you add in a stated quality, how can this be made use of? What benefit is there to not finding what you're looking for?


This card counts as fulfilling the 'stated quality' thing with its 'different names' clause. No matter what cards you have in your deck, you can just say "I can't find any cards in my deck that have different names... except for these two."

Your opponent then has to put the two cards in your graveyard, where you want them.

Note: The most recent oracle update changed the wording on these cards so now it's clear, with the words "up to." Prior to that it was just a rules quirk that you had to know existed.

AJ_Impy posted:

Enter Splinter.

As an aside, if you really want to break the game, you can use Retraced Image with a Splinter token from Splintering Wind in play to put an instant onto the battlefield.

There's a thing in the comp. rules specifically that says if a card would enter the battlefield that isn't a permanent then it doesn't. Prior to this rule, Splintering Wind was errata'd to make "Sprite" tokens, specifically to avoid the Splinter problem.

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Splicer
Oct 16, 2006

from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸
If anyone can remember the full combo that allowed you to attack the opposing player with the two of clubs I'd be greatly appreciative. I know it started with using [http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=34402]Death Wish[/url] to add a playing card to your hand but for the life of me I can't remember how you got it into play.

Splicer fucked around with this message at 17:34 on Mar 18, 2013

AJ_Impy
Jun 17, 2007

SWORD OF SMATTAS. CAN YOU NOT HEAR A WORLD CRY OUT FOR JUSTICE? WHEN WILL YOU DELIVER IT?
Yam Slacker
I'd argue that the best R&D's lair trick is This.

(That card also combos with Mindslaver and Bazaar Trader to make them ask you to get them the most expensive drink available, which they then have to pay for.)

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

AJ_Impy posted:

I'd argue that the best R&D's lair trick is This.

(That card also combos with Mindslaver and Bazaar Trader to make them ask you to get them the most expensive drink available, which they then have to pay for.)

Only if they're an idiot, because there's nothing stopping them sacrificing the Coupon on your turn and asking for a glass of tap water.

Idran
Jan 13, 2005
Grimey Drawer

Jedit posted:

Only if they're an idiot, because there's nothing stopping them sacrificing the Coupon on your turn and asking for a glass of tap water.

R&D's lair would interact with Mindslaver to make you literally control them to make that impossible, I assume. :v:

Edit: Oh, wait, no, you're right. I missed that Mindslaver doesn't take effect until their turn.

AJ_Impy
Jun 17, 2007

SWORD OF SMATTAS. CAN YOU NOT HEAR A WORLD CRY OUT FOR JUSTICE? WHEN WILL YOU DELIVER IT?
Yam Slacker

Jedit posted:

Only if they're an idiot, because there's nothing stopping them sacrificing the Coupon on your turn and asking for a glass of tap water.

Nope. You activate Mindslaver with Bazaar trader and the coupon in play. Then on their turn (which you control), you use Bazaar Trader to give them the coupon. No window for them to sac it before you have them ask you for the can of coke with 'For sale, $1,000,000' hastily scribbled on a post-it and stuck on.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

Honestly, from the looks of it, the Coupon breaks R&D's Secret Lair in new and interesting ways.

After all, the errata is written on the card.

You must play the card exactly as written, but also ignore all errata.

Phanatic
Mar 13, 2007

Please don't forget that I am an extremely racist idiot who also has terrible opinions about the Culture series.

Mors Rattus posted:

Honestly, from the looks of it, the Coupon breaks R&D's Secret Lair in new and interesting ways.

After all, the errata is written on the card.

You must play the card exactly as written, but also ignore all errata.

Effects go on the stack in the order that they're played. So "play the card as written" goes on the stack, followed by "ignore all errata." Then "ignore all errata" resolves, but then it's superseded by "play card as written." So the other guy does have to buy your drink for you. I'd suggest a Sazerac with Louis XIII. Or just a mimosa made with Cristal.

BattleMaster
Aug 14, 2000

AJ_Impy posted:

Been a while since we brought up Magic oddities.


It's worth noting that if there isn't a stated quality, you have to find a target. If you're looking for '3 cards', you need to find them or run out of cards trying. But if you add in a stated quality, how can this be made use of? What benefit is there to not finding what you're looking for?


This card counts as fulfilling the 'stated quality' thing with its 'different names' clause. No matter what cards you have in your deck, you can just say "I can't find any cards in my deck that have different names... except for these two."

Your opponent then has to put the two cards in your graveyard, where you want them.

Aside from the rare edge case here and there, the rule does exist for a good reason. If you accidentally misplay a library search card and legitimately can't find anything that matches (maybe you neglected to keep track of what had already been drawn or milled), you don't have to show your entire library to your opponent so that he can verify that you're telling the truth.

Chamale
Jul 11, 2010

I'm helping!



Splicer posted:

If anyone can remember the full combo that allowed you to attack the opposing player with the two of clubs I'd be greatly appreciative. I know it started with using [http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=34402]Death Wish[/url] to add a playing card to your hand but for the life of me I can't remember how you got it into play.

I guess you could use _____ and Retraced Image. In a world where you're allowed to play _____, you could also put into play Pokémon cards, baseball players, and other cards.

Splicer
Oct 16, 2006

from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Chamale posted:

I guess you could use _____ and Retraced Image. In a world where you're allowed to play _____, you could also put into play Pokémon cards, baseball players, and other cards.
It was:
Put an enchantment into play that gives all your creatures at least +0/+1.
Play Death Touch to put any card you own, including the two of clubs, Pikachu, or your opponent's business card, into your hand.
Then (and this is the bit I can't remember) there's some what to play any card from your hand (or from the graveyard) as an X/X creature, where X equals the card's converted mana cost. Since the card has no mana cost it becomes a 0/0 creature, + whatever enchantments you had in play.
Then you attack your opponent with the rules for stud poker.

Ultiville
Jan 14, 2005

The law protects no one unless it binds everyone, binds no one unless it protects everyone.

Splicer posted:

It was:
Put an enchantment into play that gives all your creatures at least +0/+1.
Play Death Touch to put any card you own, including the two of clubs, Pikachu, or your opponent's business card, into your hand.
Then (and this is the bit I can't remember) there's some what to play any card from your hand (or from the graveyard) as an X/X creature, where X equals the card's converted mana cost. Since the card has no mana cost it becomes a 0/0 creature, + whatever enchantments you had in play.
Then you attack your opponent with the rules for stud poker.

It's in the post you quoted, you need Retraced Image + ________.

That said, even in silver-bordered land you need some pretty serious bending of the rules to make it work. You can't fetch non-Magic cards with Death Wish to begin with (for the same reason you can't name "orange" when asked to name a color; magic cards don't use plain language definitions for terms like "card"), and on top of that you'd have to convince the opponent that non-Magic cards have a name that the game can work with. (Obviously this is much easier with a Yugioh card or something than with the two of clubs).

Captain_Indigo
Jul 29, 2007

"That’s cheating! You know the rules: once you sacrifice something here, you don’t get it back!"

I know it has been touched upon in this thread, but can anyone explain the idea about Druids having to kill off another druid at a certain level in 2E? I might be misremembering the details, but once you got to a certain point, or if you wanted to use a certain spell or something, weren't druids forced to undertake a druid fight club and kill one of their superiors off in order to make room for them in Fantasy Elf Forest Circle, or something? Does anyone know what the origins of this were in fiction, or if it was a purely D&D thing?

Kwyndig
Sep 23, 2006

Heeeeeey


Captain_Indigo posted:

I know it has been touched upon in this thread, but can anyone explain the idea about Druids having to kill off another druid at a certain level in 2E? I might be misremembering the details, but once you got to a certain point, or if you wanted to use a certain spell or something, weren't druids forced to undertake a druid fight club and kill one of their superiors off in order to make room for them in Fantasy Elf Forest Circle, or something? Does anyone know what the origins of this were in fiction, or if it was a purely D&D thing?

I don't know about the origins but yeah, at certain levels there were a set number of druids total at that level. So in order to level up the guy above had to either die or level up himself.

There are 9 druids per 'region' at 12, 3 at 13th, 1 at 14th, one in the ENTIRE WORLD at 15th. Then at 16th is gets weird.

Also yes, it specifically mentions that one way to advance in these levels is to take out the other dude, fight club style.

Kwyndig fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Mar 18, 2013

Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011

Captain_Indigo posted:

I know it has been touched upon in this thread, but can anyone explain the idea about Druids having to kill off another druid at a certain level in 2E? I might be misremembering the details, but once you got to a certain point, or if you wanted to use a certain spell or something, weren't druids forced to undertake a druid fight club and kill one of their superiors off in order to make room for them in Fantasy Elf Forest Circle, or something? Does anyone know what the origins of this were in fiction, or if it was a purely D&D thing?

In the words of a wiser man.

Joesky the dungeon fighter posted:

THE ONE THING ISCOOLFROM D&D DRUID IS YOU DONT GET A FREE PASS TO BE THE TOP GUY, YOU HAVE TO FIGHT CLUB THE LEADER. “EVERYONE GET IN A CIRCLE THERE IS A ARCHDRUID CHALLENGE!!!’ I THINK THEY SHOULD BE TIE TOGETHER AT THE WRIST AND NAKED (NUDE OF CLOTHS) AND HAVE ONLY A SHARD OF ANTLER FOR A WEAPON AND THEN IT’S TO THE DEATH. THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!!!!! AND THE CIRCLE CHEERS THE WINNER GUY AND THEN THEY EAT THE LOSER.

Gau
Nov 18, 2003

I don't think you understand, Gau.

quote:

Druids, Archdruids, and the Great Druid

At 12th level, the druid character acquires the official title of “druid” (all druid characters below 12th level are officially known as “initiates”). There can be only nine 12th-level druids in any geographic region (as defined by oceans, seas, and mountain ranges; a continent may consist of three or four such regions). A character cannot reach 12th level unless he takes his place as one of the nine druids. This is possible only if there are currently fewer than nine druids in the region, or if the character defeats one of the nine druids in magical or hand-to-hand combat, thereby assuming the defeated druid's position. If such combat is not mortal, the loser drops experience points so that he has exactly 200,000 remaining--just enough to be 11th level.

The precise details of each combat are worked out between the two combatants in advance. The combat can be magical, non-magical, or a mixture of both. It can be fought to the death, until only one character is unconscious, until a predetermined number of hit points is lost, or even until the first blow is landed, although in this case both players would have to be supremely confident of their abilities. Whatever can be agreed upon between the characters is legitimate, so long as there is some element of skill and risk.

When a character becomes a 12th-level druid, he gains three underlings. Their level depends on the character's position among the nine druids. The druid with the most experience points is served by three initiates of 9th level; the second-most experienced druid is served by three initiates of 8th level; and so on, until the least experienced druid is served by three 1st-level initiates.

Only three archdruids (13th level) can operate in a geographical region. To become an archdruid, a 12th-level druid must defeat one of the reigning archdruids or advance into a vacant position. Each of the three archdruids is served by three initiates of 10th level. From among the archdruids of the entire world, three are chosen to serve the Grand Druid (see “The Grand Druid and Hierophant Druids” section). These three retain their attendees but are themselves servants of the Grand Druid.

The Great Druid (14th level) is unique in his region. He, too, won his position from the previous great druid. He is served by three initiates of 11th level.

The ascendance of a new Great Druid usually sets off shock waves of turmoil and chaos through the druidical hierarchy. The advancement of an archdruid creates an opening that is fiercely contested by the druids, and the advancement of a druid creates an opening in their ranks.

The Grand Druid and Hierophant Druids

The highest ranking druid in the world is the Grand Druid (15th level). Unlike great druids (several of whom can operate simultaneously in different lands), only one person in a world can ever hold this title at one time. Consequently, only one druid can be 15th level at any time.

The Grand Druid knows six spells of each level (instead of the normal spell progression) and also can cast up to six additional spell levels, either as a single spell or as several spells whose levels total to six (for example, one 6th-level spell, six 1st-level spells, three 2nd-level spells, etc.).

The Grand Druid is attended by nine other druids who are subject only to him and have nothing to do with the hierarchy of any specific land or area. Any druid character of any level can seek the Grand Druid and ask to serve him. Three of these nine are archdruids who roam the world, acting as his messengers and agents. Each of them receives four additional spell levels. The remainder are normally druids of 7th to 11th level, although the Grand Druid can request a druid of any level to serve him and often considers applications from humble aspirants.

The position of Grand Druid is not won through combat. Instead, the Grand Druid selects his successor from the acting great druids. The position is demanding, thankless, and generally unexciting for anyone except a politician. After a few hundred thousand experience points of such stuff, any adventurer worthy of the name probably is ready to move on to something else.

For this reason, the Grand Druid reaches 16th level after earning only 500,000 more experience points. After reaching 16th level, the Grand Druid can step down from his position at any time, provided he can find a suitable successor (another druid with 3,000,000 experience points).

Upon stepping down, the former Grand Druid must relinquish the six bonus spell levels and all of his experience points but 1 (he keeps the rest of his abilities). He is now a 16th-level hierophant druid, and begins advancing anew (using the progression given in Table 23). The character may rise as high as 20th level as a hierophant druid (almost always through self training).

Beyond 15th level, a druid never gains any new spells (ignore the Priest Spell Progression table from this point on). Casting level continues to rise with experience. Rather than spells, spell-like powers are acquired.

16th level: At 16th level, the hierophant druid gains four powers: Editor's note: there are only three powers.

Immunity to all natural poisons. Natural poisons are ingested or insinuated animal or vegetable poisons, including monster poisons, but not mineral poisons or poison gas.

Vigorous health for a person of his age. The hierophant is no longer subject to the ability score adjustments for aging.

The ability to alter his appearance at will. Appearance alteration is accomplished in one round. A height and weight increase or decrease of 50% is possible, with an apparent age from childhood to extreme old age. Body and facial features can resemble any human or humanoid creature. This alteration is not magical, so it cannot be detected by any means short of true seeing.

17th Level: The character gains the biological ability to hibernate. His body functions slow to the point where the character may appear dead to a casual observer; aging ceases. The character is completely unconscious during hibernation. He awakens either at a preordained time ("I will hibernate for 20 days") or when there is a significant change in his environment (the weather turns cold, someone hits him with a stick, etc.).

A 17th-level hierophant druid can also enter the Elemental Plane of Earth at will. The transference takes one round to complete. This ability also provides the means to survive on that plane, move around, and return to the Prime Material Plane at will. It does not confer similar abilities or immunities on the Prime Material Plane.

18th level: The character gains the ability to enter and survive in the Elemental Plane of Fire.

19th level: The character gains the ability to enter and survive in the Elemental Plane of Water.

20th level: The character gains the ability to enter and survive in the Elemental Plane of Air.

greatn
Nov 15, 2006

by Lowtax
Monks work the same way, but are somewhat more ridiculous. To advance in level you have to single handedly defeats monk of the next highest level, or a number of monks whose total levels equals that.

So if you need to level up to 20th, you are about to kick 20 first level monks asses simultaneously. Seriously fifty first level monks could do absolutely nothing versus a nineteenth level one. If you're nee to the monastery, first day, some guy in need of level up might just murder your rear end.

Rulebook Heavily
Sep 18, 2010

by FactsAreUseless
Supposedly, Gygax based them on the Gallic priests described by Caesar in De Bello Gallico, which describes a kind of great druidic leader position in certain regions which is held until death, at which point a successor would be decided by vote or ritual combat.

How this became the tangles mess of AD&D druids I don't know. Someone looked at that trial by combat line and just went wild with it! Let's look at the exact text:

quote:

At 12th level, the druid character acquires the official title of “druid” (all druid characters below 12th level are officially known as “initiates”). There can be only nine 12th-level druids in any geographic region (as defined by oceans, seas, and mountain ranges; a continent may consist of three or four such regions). A character cannot reach 12th level unless he takes his place as one of the nine druids. This is possible only if there are currently fewer than nine druids in the region, or if the character defeats one of the nine druids in magical or hand-to-hand combat, thereby assuming the defeated druid's position. If such combat is not mortal, the loser drops experience points so that he has exactly 200,000 remaining--just enough to be 11th level.

So basically you lost a level if you failed at trial-by-combat against a higher level Druid. Or failed to assassinate one beforehand, whichever. And this combat has to be repeated at levels 13 and 14, but once you pass beyond 15 you become a Hierophant and don't have to give a poo poo about this nonsense anymore.

PantsOptional
Dec 27, 2012

All I wanna do is make you bounce
In order to get to 12th level as a druid, you have to find and defeat one of the nine other 12th level druids in your region. Region here can be pretty broadly defined - in Europe, for example, you might have the regions of Eastern Europe, Western Europe, the British Isles, and Northern Europe. The loser, if not killed, gets reset to 11th level and the winner advances on. This process repeats itself going from 12th to 13th, with only three 13th level druids, and with one Grand Druid at 14th level.

Moving from 14th to 15th the stakes change and you have to be granted the position by the single remaining 15th level druid in the entire world. Your XP table gets out of whack at this point, as all it takes to move on to 16th is 500K XP. For comparison, getting up to 15th level took 3.5 million XP. Why does it take so little to move on? As the book points out, this is essentially an intensely boring level in which you're more or less not adventuring a lot, despite the fact that this makes so little sense that I need beer.

After this, you get cool elemental/planar powers and weird supernatural abilities which don't count as spells. What you don't get, at that point, are any restrictions on how many druids there can be, so you've got a situation where there are very few druids of 12-15th level, and possibly shitloads of them at 16+.

All in all, you go from being an adventurer, to competing in the Druid version of Highlander, to being elected Druid Pope, to throwing away the Druidic Papacy so that you can go hang out with other dudes who can pop off to the Elemental Planes whenever they like.

Decades later I still can't decide if this is amazing or terrible.

Kwyndig
Sep 23, 2006

Heeeeeey


Well, you become a Hierophant and have to start earning XP from scratch, oh also you don't get more spells, ever which means you're tapped at one 7th level spell (despite for some reason having the ability to cast 6 spells a level or something odd like that the previous level).

Effectronica
May 31, 2011
Fallen Rib
The Druid rules are pretty interesting, because they're clearly non-generic, like the 1e Bard rules or the Monk rules. I wonder if this is a relic of their development, since I think I remember reading that virtually every basic class from AD&D besides Fighter, Cleric, and Magic-User was developed from various fanzine classes (I know for a fact that the Thief was heavily inspired by a version mailed directly to Gygax). My copy of Playing at the World is inaccessible right now, so I'm afraid I can't confirm it.

Of course, in 2e, Druids were "Priests of a Specific Mythos", and were provided as an example of a specialized Cleric, ostensibly. Similarly, specialist wizards and the Illusionist had the same relationship, though this wasn't in place for Bards, Paladins, and Rangers.

So let's talk about this on a somewhat more rarefied plain: the high-level rules. Basically, before 3e, characters in D&D were assumed to "settle down" at high levels. Clerics would found churches or monasteries, Fighters would build a castle and attract followers, Magic-Users would build some sort of tower or something and maybe seek out apprentices, Thieves would build fortified lairs or crazy aboveground dungeons filled with trophies and attract apprentices, etc. Druids have a similar thing going on- they get a couple of followers at high levels, eventually move on to political leadership, and then go on to asceticism.

But the rules for doing anything with your private army or gang of thieves were sparse. This is, I think, a relic of the earlier days when they assumed as a matter of course you had Chainmail or another fantasy wargaming system you could use for fighting large-scale battles, and the overall mortality rate meant that a lot of people never got to the high levels and those that did probably retired their characters and went on to play new ones. Various books suggested god-killing exploits and the like, and 2e settings had some more stuff like the sorcerer-king and avangion rituals in Dark Sun, but overall D&D didn't have much for dealing with high levels, or even outlining what you did. And this has continued, from 3e's ill-conceived Epic rules, to 4e's lack of a DMG for the Epic tier, and probably won't be solved by Next. So Hierophant Druids probably contributed to brainwashing people with skateboarding or cloudsurfing or stuffing yourself inside a winebottle or not being able to tell footprints apart without a feat or most of the really hilarious 3e stuff.

Pidmon
Mar 18, 2009

NO ONE risks painful injury on your GREEN SLIME GHOST POGO RIDE.

No one but YOU.
So by that R&D Secret Lair ruleset, if you ever get a situation saying 'Draw a card and play it' (I don't play magic but does that happen?) could you just jot on a peice of scrap paper the words "I WIN" and then win?

I mean if you're already putting your left hand on top of the discard pile...

Chamale
Jul 11, 2010

I'm helping!



Pidmon posted:

So by that R&D Secret Lair ruleset, if you ever get a situation saying 'Draw a card and play it' (I don't play magic but does that happen?) could you just jot on a peice of scrap paper the words "I WIN" and then win?

I mean if you're already putting your left hand on top of the discard pile...

If you can assemble a dumb combo in whatever format lets you play R&D's Secret Lair, you could easily do something that prevents your opponent from ever making any plays, or deals an effectively infinite amount of damage. It's more fun to screw around or win spectacularly than to simply declare you win.

Ariamaki
Jun 30, 2011

"I'm the most powerful
search engine in the world!"
-- The GoogleProg
There are two problems with some of the Secret Lair stuff going around: They all ignore two key parts of the card. But those parts are, in and of themselves, pretty hilarious, and lead to rules interactions just as strange if not stranger.

1- Secret Lair does not say to play every card literally, it says to play it as written, ignoring all errata.
This means that the various "discard your hand" stuff doesn't work, but things like Floral Spuzzem's infinite delay of game does.

2- Errata written on cards is not actually errata.
MaRo made this one clear in the original FAQTIWDAWCC* and its sub-articles. This means that Cardboard Carapace and Ashnod's Coupon still work exactly as intended... To some extent.



Of course, this brings up my interesting rule for the post:

The Presence of 0 is Not the Absence of a Number



Now, since we're discussing the FAQTIWDAWCC anyways, let's go whole-hog and quote the great MaRo:

Mark Rosewater posted:


How does this card work?

Richard essentially makes you play a variant of the Magic game called "Mental Magic." Here's how the game works. While you're playing (when Richard is in play), whenever you play a spell, you reveal the card to all players and name any other spell (see below for the cards that you can use) that has that card's mana cost. (Note that color very much does matter.) That spell can then be played as the named spell. You aren't allowed to name the same card twice.

Let me walk you through an example. You have the card Healing Salve in your hand. (Why are you playing Healing Salve? I have no idea.) You reveal the card and name any spell that costs {W} -- Savannah Lions, Isamaru, Hound of Konda, Mother of Runes, Land Tax, Spirit Link, Erase, Swords to Plowshares, Enlightened Tutor, Tithe, Purelace, etc...


OK, so, makes sense so far. Any card is functionally any card with the same mana cost (Same exact mana cost, mind you: 2UU is not 3U or UUUU), or itself, but you can never do the same card twice (with a given copy of Richard).

Enter the Ornithopter:



It's a card with 0 mana cost! Oh man, does this mean that I can just randomly drop cards that don't have mana costs into play?



Nope! Having a 0 is very distinct from having nothing at all, and so despite having the same "cost" in all functional terms, not even Richard (and not even in his Secret Lair) can let you make this swap.


*-- (Frequently Asked Questions That If We Didn't Answer Would Cause Chaos)

Opinion Haver
Apr 9, 2007

Speaking of Lotus cards!



The intent here was to make it so that when you play it, you have to sacrifice your lands immediately. So the turn you play it, you sacrifice two lands but get a source of three mana from the vale, meaning you're only up one net mana, and lose some of the flexibility (can't spend one and leave two untapped). It's still broken even in this form, since there are lots of effects that untap lands, you can recur with Crucible of Worlds, etc.

But that's not how it works as written. As written, you play it, the sacrifice trigger goes on the stack in response, and you can then tap it before it gets sacrificed. So it's basically a reprint of Black Lotus, the single most powerful card in the game, but with the small drawback that you can only crack it at sorcery speed.

Eventually, they changed it via Oracle to have the wording "If Lotus Vale would enter the battlefield, sacrifice two untapped lands instead. If you do, put Lotus Vale onto the battlefield. If you don't, put it into its owner's graveyard." It's one of the few incidences of a card's behavior being changed via Oracle.
"

Vorpal Cat
Mar 19, 2009

Oh god what did I just post?
So can you use R&D's Secret lair with Richard Garfild, PH.D. to play a Two of Clubs you wished into your hand as if it was a Lotus Blossom? Richard never says the card in your hand has to be a magic card, and a two of clubs certainly doesn't have a mana cost.

CaptCommy
Aug 13, 2012

The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a goat.
Not to rain on everyone's parade here, but Secret Lair only works with Magic Cards.

Relevant response from Mark Rosewater's tumblr:

quote:

pookel asked: Since we're asking about R&D's Secret Lair, does it allow the YuGiOh card Mountain (rules text: "Increases the ATK and DEF of all Dragon, Winged Beast, and Thunder-Type monsters by 200 points") to boost Dragons by 200/200? Or are ATK and DEF not considered equivalent to power and toughness?

Maro: R&D’s Secret Lair (and all silver bordered cards) only affects Magic cards.

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/43907199004/since-were-asking-about-r-ds-secret-lair-does-it

Ariamaki
Jun 30, 2011

"I'm the most powerful
search engine in the world!"
-- The GoogleProg

CaptCommy posted:

Not to rain on everyone's parade here, but Secret Lair only works with Magic Cards.

Relevant response from Mark Rosewater's tumblr:


http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/43907199004/since-were-asking-about-r-ds-secret-lair-does-it

Yeah, that's another issue that doesn't quite work as planned, although he has pointed out in the past that someone can attempt to use silver-bordered cards to affect silver-bordered cards in another game like Netrunner, if the players of the victimized game allow it. Which of these answers supercedes the other is an interesting question.

Lone Goat
Apr 16, 2003

When life gives you lemons, suplex those lemons.




CaptCommy posted:

Not to rain on everyone's parade here, but Secret Lair only works with Magic Cards.

We're not using R&D's Secret Lair to affect the non-Magic cards, we're using Richard Garfield, PhD. to affect non-Magic cards.

Vorpal Cat posted:

So can you use R&D's Secret lair with Richard Garfild, PH.D. to play a Two of Clubs you wished into your hand as if it was a Lotus Blossom? Richard never says the card in your hand has to be a magic card, and a two of clubs certainly doesn't have a mana cost.

Well, first you'd have to get the 2:c: in your hand in the first place, and you can't start throwing random poo poo into your deck for no reason.

However....

Ariamaki
Jun 30, 2011

"I'm the most powerful
search engine in the world!"
-- The GoogleProg
I would point out that you're forgetting the (and all silver-bordered cards) bit, but...

Any excuse to use Ring of Maruf is fine by me. :V

CaptCommy
Aug 13, 2012

The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a goat.

Lone Goat posted:

We're not using R&D's Secret Lair to affect the non-Magic cards, we're using Richard Garfield, PhD. to affect non-Magic cards.


Well, first you'd have to get the 2:c: in your hand in the first place, and you can't start throwing random poo poo into your deck for no reason.

However....



The point was more that the word card on any Magic card, including silver bordered, is a reference to a Magic card and not any other kind of card. Even with R&D's Secret Lair, card is still in reference to Magic Card. So by RAW, none of this two of clubs stuff works.

GottaPayDaTrollToll
Dec 3, 2009

by Lowtax
RAW, it should work if you can prove that the two of clubs in question actually has magical powers, and thus fulfills the requirement of being a "Magic card". Good luck doing that, though.

Ratoslov
Feb 15, 2012

Now prepare yourselves! You're the guests of honor at the Greatest Kung Fu Cannibal BBQ Ever!

GottaPayDaTrollToll posted:

RAW, it should work if you can prove that the two of clubs in question actually has magical powers, and thus fulfills the requirement of being a "Magic card". Good luck doing that, though.

That's easy. Pull it out of someone's ear.

Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008



CaptCommy posted:

The point was more that the word card on any Magic card, including silver bordered, is a reference to a Magic card and not any other kind of card. Even with R&D's Secret Lair, card is still in reference to Magic Card. So by RAW, none of this two of clubs stuff works.

So, could I grab that giant sized Chaos Orb from Inquest?

Idran
Jan 13, 2005
Grimey Drawer

Spoilers Below posted:

So, could I grab that giant sized Chaos Orb from Inquest?



Apparently so!

quote:

108.2. When a rule or text on a card refers to a “card,” it means only a Magic card. Most Magic games use only traditional Magic cards, which measure approximately 2.5 inches (6.3 cm) by 3.5 inches (8.8 cm). Certain formats also use nontraditional Magic cards, oversized cards that may have different backs. Tokens aren’t considered cards — even a card that represents a token isn’t considered a card for rules purposes.

Lone Goat
Apr 16, 2003

When life gives you lemons, suplex those lemons.




Speaking of Chaos Orb, here's a fun trick you can do with your friends.

First, get a Chaos Orb into play.


Then, turn it into a creature. There are roughly a billion ways to do this, but let's just use a ghost to possess it for a bit. (Ghost not pictured)


Next, let's play Dance of Many to create a copy of the Chaos Orb creature. To represent the token, use your own human body.


Because the generated copy only copies the base statistics of the copied permanent, you (the token) are not a creature, and as such, you are not affected by summoning sickness.

Add one mana and tap yourself to activate your ability. Then, climb the top rope and do a Phoenix Splash onto the table. Make sure you rotate fully, and try to land on as many of your opponent's permanents as possible!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vYvU9MBOPk

Zemyla
Aug 6, 2008

I'll take her off your hands. Pleasure doing business with you!

Ariamaki posted:

Nope! Having a 0 is very distinct from having nothing at all, and so despite having the same "cost" in all functional terms, not even Richard (and not even in his Secret Lair) can let you make this swap.
However, since lands have no mana cost, you could play a land as a Lotus Bloom.

Speaking of nonexistent mana costs, let's look at Evermind.


Note the reminder text there on the card says, "(Spells without mana costs can't be played.)" So back when it came out, if you stuck it on an Isochron Scepter, you couldn't cast it to draw yourself a card. Nor could Fist of Suns do it for you.

However, when Time Spiral came out, a cycle of six different spells came out that could only be bast through suspend. So that rule had to be changed. Now, the reminder text on Evermind reads "(Nonexistent mana costs can't be paid.)" There's no land or combination of lands that will let you pay {} for a spell. However, Isochron Scepter works now, Fist of Suns works now, and you can cascade into it, which has gotten Hypergenesis banned in Modern.

Other rules weirdness with Evermind: It used to be that when it was spliced onto an Arcane spell, it turned the spell blue, since the "Evermind is blue" text was copied. However, Evermind is now blue because of a color indicator on it, and the color-setting text on it no longer exists. Thus, you can't splice Evermind onto Glacial Ray to let it kill a Kor Firewalker anymore.

Zemyla fucked around with this message at 07:16 on Mar 19, 2013

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!
No fancy card combination here, I just think this Legend of the Five Rings promo card from the olden days speaks for itself, for those who haven't seen it.

Crosscontaminant
Jan 18, 2007

I notice that the card's name is "Ring of Ma ruf" (I don't see an apostrophe or a circumflex) but the card text says to destroy "Ring of Ma'rûf".

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Lone Goat
Apr 16, 2003

When life gives you lemons, suplex those lemons.




Crosscontaminant posted:

I notice that the card's name is "Ring of Ma ruf" (I don't see an apostrophe or a circumflex) but the card text says to destroy "Ring of Ma'rûf".

It might have been something to do with the font. They missed the circumflex on this handsome fellow. Twice! They figured it out eventually.

You think that's bad? Guess what the name of this card is. (There's a hint in the flavour text)



Answer: Ærathi Berserker!

Early card templating was terrible. They put a bunch of letters instead of mana symbols on a couple cards. They transposed the power/toughness on a card. They forgot to put a casting cost on a card. They put the wrong art and border on a card. They even forgot to print a couple cards! (Circle of Protection: Black, Volcanic Island).

That the game managed to survives all those gaffes says a lot about its appeal.

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