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WeaponGradeSadness posted:Really, I think the game just needs more character/interpersonal interactions to flesh individuals out. As it stands, I don't even bother to remember any names aside from my character, his wife, the eldest child of each gender, and one or two of my greatest rivals, because no one else really matters in any real way. Like, sure, your spymaster's important, but you can just plop him down in your capitol with orders to Scheme and not worry about him until you need someone assassinated. More interpersonal stuff, where you have events with family, vassals, etc, with the two character's traits and stats determining what kind of interactions those are would go a long way to flesh everyone out, and then everybody, including the women, would feel less like chess pieces and more like characters. Yeah, this is basically what I was getting at. It's probably true that women being especially boring is basically a side-effect of the fact that people without immediate political power are faceless in general. The kind of thing you mention would help immersion a ton. Like I said - we need a Soap Opera Mod! More friends, rivals, ugly domestic quarrels, infidelity, revenge, dirty secrets and other bits of exploitation-drama.
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Apr 10, 2013 18:12
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On another note, does anyone know if more than 50/500/whatever it's at right now POPs can join an RGO at once now? It was frustrating playing APD the other day and having a huge amount of laborers sit on their hands.
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Apr 10, 2013 19:30
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If you mean in HoD, yes.
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Apr 10, 2013 19:35
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Guildencrantz posted:Yeah, this is basically what I was getting at. It's probably true that women being especially boring is basically a side-effect of the fact that people without immediate political power are faceless in general. The kind of thing you mention would help immersion a ton. That would be fantastic, hopefully The Old Gods can incorporate some more interpersonal events like that. One thing that occurred to me when I was playing my Italian merchant save a few minutes ago is the complete lack of reaction to familial deaths. My Doge's 12-year-old daughter that he spoiled rotten, doting on her and giving her everything she wanted, died of Camp Fever, and the family doesn't so much as blink. It also reminded me of an old Duchy of Toulouse game, where my son and heir, a genius with some of the highest stats and best traits I'd ever seen, died in his mid/late-20s, leaving my complete idiot of an eldest daughter in line for the throne. That should sure as hell get some kind of reaction! I don't know, just throwing some thoughts out there. I'd certainly download a Soap Opera Mod, I can tell you that for sure. Hell, I'd be willing to throw down  on an official "Interpersonal Events Pack" DLC. You listening, Paradox? 
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Apr 10, 2013 19:48
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Darkrenown posted:If you mean in HoD, yes. Goddamn let me play aHoD. 
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Apr 10, 2013 21:50
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WeaponGradeSadness posted:That would be fantastic, hopefully The Old Gods can incorporate some more interpersonal events like that. One thing that occurred to me when I was playing my Italian merchant save a few minutes ago is the complete lack of reaction to familial deaths. My Doge's 12-year-old daughter that he spoiled rotten, doting on her and giving her everything she wanted, died of Camp Fever, and the family doesn't so much as blink. It also reminded me of an old Duchy of Toulouse game, where my son and heir, a genius with some of the highest stats and best traits I'd ever seen, died in his mid/late-20s, leaving my complete idiot of an eldest daughter in line for the throne. That should sure as hell get some kind of reaction! I don't know, just throwing some thoughts out there. I'd certainly download a Soap Opera Mod, I can tell you that for sure. Well, there is an event where if you have an amazing heir for a long time, and good relations, and he/she dies, your ruler reacts. IIRC you become either Depressed or Cynical, but it's been a while since I've seen it. There's another similar one with spouses in a loving marriage as well. Still, there's plenty more stuff to do. Like the Friends/Rivals system, that's a great base that's pretty underdeveloped - it happens sort of arbitrarily and doesn't tie into other game events very much. And, of course, there's the fact that while you do get a negative modifier if someone murders your kin, I would so like a "Take Revenge on X" ambition  Man, I think I know how I'm spending my weekend.
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Apr 10, 2013 22:02
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DrProsek posted:poo poo like a genocide Boers button.... eh too far I grew up in South Africa during Apartheid (up to experiencing it as an adult). I'll mod it in. Darkrenown posted:Most people, however, are able to recognise that shooting someone in an FPS doesn't actually make you a murderer, and that colonising Africa doesn't make you a neo-colonial racist. I agree, I don't think that of all of people. It's just a game.
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Apr 10, 2013 22:24
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After having had a blast with CK2 (the first paradox game I actually enjoyed really), I've set it upon myself to try and decipher Vicky 2. Should I get a house divided right away, even while learning the game? Or is it ok to start with the base game and go from there?
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Apr 10, 2013 22:39
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RagnarokAngel posted:IS there evidence of this? I'm asking sincerely cause I'm curious. I had always been taught that marriage was seen as a bargaining chip and love didn't factor into it. Not that love didn't exist, people were making songs about love since forever, in all cultures, but it was seen as forsaking your duty first and foremost to your country. I'm sure the occasional person got offended at the notion, but was it actually common? DrProsek posted:Ah, no idea why I didn't at least remember the ToT. I suppose the game already has genocides in it so adding in a second decision like the one the Zulus have isn't unprecedented. Alchenar posted:There are particular differences in making a grand-strategy game that make it incredibly difficult to attach some kind of meaningful narrative that the player is supposed to identify with, though. I mean, if you wanted Hearts of Iron to properly grapple with the vileness of being a murder simulation then the way to do it would be to implement a Holocaust mechanic for the Germans to pump IC into, with them gaining VP as you achieve Hitler's goal of exterminating his racial enemies.
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Apr 10, 2013 22:43
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Mr. Wynand posted:After having had a blast with CK2 (the first paradox game I actually enjoyed really), I've set it upon myself to try and decipher Vicky 2. Should I get a house divided right away, even while learning the game? Or is it ok to start with the base game and go from there? Get AHD, it improves Vicky 2 tremendously.
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Apr 10, 2013 22:48
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Late to the party, but:Darkrenown posted:Yeah, the games would be a lot more fun if they constantly called you a monster... It worked out pretty well for Spec Ops: The Line.
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Apr 10, 2013 23:05
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DrProsek posted:Ah, no idea why I didn't at least remember the ToT. I suppose the game already has genocides in it so adding in a second decision like the one the Zulus have isn't unprecedented. The Pop Demand Mod adds in the Navajo and the Dakota as releasable nations along with the Cherokee, but they're not present at the start of the game and only appear in certain situations - I saw them appear in my 'America as a Fascist Dictatorship' game, I got an event that gave a shitload of not-yet-existing nations cores on various parts of my land and they were two of them. I'm not sure if it's from Pop Demand itself or if it's something left over from NNM, but they're definitely there. There really should be more tribes existing from the start of the game, though - sure, the United States claimed all of the land it's currently depicted as controlling at the start of V2, but pretty much everything west of the Mississippi was still under de facto native control in 1836. e: Incidentally, does anyone perchance have any advice on how to survive as Yucatan, Metis, or Cherokee without cheating like a bandit? I really want to go all Reverse Manifest Destiny and push the Europeans back into the sea as a Native American nation, but the only three that can be released early on are so tiny they might as well be OPMs. There's bound to be some sort of viable strategy I haven't figured out yet, any ideas? Mister Bates fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Apr 10, 2013 |
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Apr 10, 2013 23:15
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Wolfgang Pauli posted:As I've mentioned before, Brenda Brathwaite's Train is a great example of how to handle something tragic strictly through ludology and game design. You don't need to narrativize to add meaning, you can address it directly in the mechanics. Train is a bad example of this because it is not a particularly compelling game, and more of a didactic art experience entirely about the intertwining of narrative/theming with mechanics. The entire "game" is a story with a twist ending, where you start with an abstract mechanic, and because you read a card that says "Dachau" on it, you are supposed to realize you're role-playing a Bad Person.
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Apr 10, 2013 23:22
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Darkrenown posted:Honestly, pretty much any video game involving conflict has the player doing what would be terrible things in real life. Most people, however, are able to recognise that shooting someone in an FPS doesn't actually make you a murderer, and that colonising Africa doesn't make you a neo-colonial racist. That is exactly my point! Bad things happened in history, and Paradox haven't shied away from representing some of these - eg. soldier pops and people dying in wars and battles. I don't feel like Stalin because I send thousands of troops into the meat grinder of a battle. But quote:"[I]t's too modern a viewpoint. In-game, the race for colonies is seen in an entirely positive light. With the colonization system, we have decided to take the angle of the European powers sitting in drawing rooms in Europe drawing arbitrary lines on the maps." This just completely airbrushes history. At least in a FPS game when you kill someone, you see them die. If the negative effects of Colonialism are modelled in game, I won't feel like a neo-colonial racist. But it is a consideration that should figure in my plans. Do I exploit the Congo for my own gain, or am I taking on the white man's burden to create a free and fair polity?
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Apr 10, 2013 23:27
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I'm hoping aHoD will address some of this. The game's name is "A heart of darkness" and its not referring entirely to the dark skin of the Africans but rather the darkness in the soul of the white man.
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Apr 10, 2013 23:29
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EightDeer posted:It worked out pretty well for Spec Ops: The Line. Which was, in many ways, intentional satire on the nature of first person shooters.
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Apr 11, 2013 00:32
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V for Vegas posted:That is exactly my point! Cynic Jester posted:Which was, in many ways, intentional satire on the nature of first person shooters.
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Apr 11, 2013 02:11
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Darkrenown posted:If you mean in HoD, yes. Great, already pre-ordered, thanks. 
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Apr 11, 2013 03:24
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Mister Bates posted:There really should be more tribes existing from the start of the game, though - sure, the United States claimed all of the land it's currently depicted as controlling at the start of V2, but pretty much everything west of the Mississippi was still under de facto native control in 1836. Land claims are something that I feel is sorely missing from Paradox games. If you look at maps showing North America during the colonial period, you'll see huge stretches of land labeled as owned by 'France', 'England', or 'Spain.' When really the territory had maybe been scouted out by an explorer, or perhaps there were a few trading settlements, but it wasn't settled (by Europeans at least). Something neat for EU4 would be the ability to claim land you could then later colonize at a lesser cost than fully colonizing the land and making it a full, productive colony. Give a CB if someone tries to muscle in on your claims, too. It would also make a historical event based on the Treaty of Tordesillas possible. A Renaissance Nerd fucked around with this message at 04:50 on Apr 11, 2013 |
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Apr 11, 2013 03:48
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Exploration and colonization through cores rather than ownership does make a lot of sense. It'd basically eliminate the game design necessity of empty provinces, too.
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Apr 11, 2013 03:53
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So I've been making a few little tweaks to the "Pop Divided Mod".  I call it "Divided States of America".
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Apr 11, 2013 04:21
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DrSunshine posted:So I've been making a few little tweaks to the "Pop Divided Mod". Columbia? This mod truly is representing a timeline that never happened.
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Apr 11, 2013 04:23
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E:^^^ If I had to guess, a combination of the name of (no longer British) Columbia (BC threatened to quit Canada when the transcontinental railway failed, so vanilla V2 has a tag for them), and the land of Cascadia  ... it's glorious. I would say that USA still seems a tad too strong though: a Free States of America in New York, Philadelphia, and maybe Ohio would put a big enough dent in their manpower and industry that alliance blocks that can stand up to the USA should be common enough.
burnishedfume fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Apr 11, 2013 |
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Apr 11, 2013 04:24
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I'd divide the western states where 'United States' is printed up amongst the other western nations, personally, and do something about those weird Alaskan borders, but it looks fun! EDIT: Or even just get rid of the USA, turn the east coast into some sort of New York led state and some sort of other state ruled from Chicago or something. EDIT EDIT: Idle thoughts:  EDIT EDIT EDIT: Has there been a 'balkanized world' mod? Fintilgin fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Apr 11, 2013 |
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Apr 11, 2013 04:32
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You could always give the heartland to the Sioux and Pawnee tribes, or the area around New York and Pennsylvania to the Iroquois Confederacy!
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Apr 11, 2013 04:41
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What about the manhattan commune?
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Apr 11, 2013 04:44
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Fintilgin posted:I'd divide the western states where 'United States' is printed up amongst the other western nations, personally, and do something about those weird Alaskan borders, but it looks fun! I'd back this scenario. It'd make America a much more lively place.
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Apr 11, 2013 04:45
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Fintilgin posted:EDIT EDIT EDIT: Has there been a 'balkanized world' mod? I don't think so, but I'd certainly love an "as many NNF tags as possible have been released" scenario.
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Apr 11, 2013 04:46
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Hot Dog Day #82 posted:You could always give the heartland to the Sioux and Pawnee tribes, or the area around New York and Pennsylvania to the Iroquois Confederacy! I'd love to do this, but it would require me to learn how to actually add new countries, instead of just fiddling around with the pre-existent countries that come with the APD. But I'll give it a try, no guarantees though. I've already tried making a Two Dakotas scenario, where in 1861, Dakota is divided into the communist North Dakota and the democratic South Dakota. But for some reason it still shows up as just "Dakokta"!! 
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Apr 11, 2013 04:48
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I say give the Californian Republic the states of Nevada, Utah, and Arizona too. It's the original Mexican state of Alta California. 
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Apr 11, 2013 04:48
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Fintilgin posted:EDIT EDIT EDIT: Has there been a 'balkanized world' mod? I've been meaning to work more on my "Voluntary Balakanization" mod: First step, create a starting scenario where every nation that can be independent is at game start (for the USA, I'd use the CSA, California, Columbia, Texas, New England, Dakota, the Cherokee, Deseret, and what remains of the USA becomes the Free States). Then I would make an additional module that when you rise to GP status you force release all nations you can. I thought it might be a cool way to keep the world in a constant state of chaos. Oh something I thought of Dr. Sunshine: Get rid of the "Petition to join union" and Manifest Destiny decisions, or else Texas, Deseret, and California will all quickly become part of the USA and then promptly the USA will take what it needs from Columbia, Dakota, and then crump the CSA.
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Apr 11, 2013 04:52
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DrProsek posted:I've been meaning to work more on my "Voluntary Balakanization" mod: First step, create a starting scenario where every nation that can be independent is at game start (for the USA, I'd use the CSA, California, Columbia, Texas, New England, Dakota, the Cherokee, Deseret, and what remains of the USA becomes the Free States). Then I would make an additional module that when you rise to GP status you force release all nations you can. I thought it might be a cool way to keep the world in a constant state of chaos. So puppets?
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Apr 11, 2013 04:57
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Fintilgin posted:EDIT EDIT EDIT: Has there been a 'balkanized world' mod? Hot Dog Day #82 posted:You could always give the heartland to the Sioux and Pawnee tribes, or the area around New York and Pennsylvania to the Iroquois Confederacy! Wolfgang Pauli fucked around with this message at 05:01 on Apr 11, 2013 |
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Apr 11, 2013 04:58
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The CSA might be a bit powerful if everyone else is split up. Maybe split off Louisiana area? Has there been a mod that adds a independent ex-slave state that can revolt away from the CSA or USA? I think that would be fun alt-history scenario. (PS: gently caress the CSA)
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Apr 11, 2013 05:05
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Fintilgin posted:The CSA might be a bit powerful if everyone else is split up. Maybe split off Louisiana area? Florida can be separate too. Bonus points for a ruling Moralist Jewish party.
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Apr 11, 2013 05:07
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Fintilgin posted:The CSA might be a bit powerful if everyone else is split up. Maybe split off Louisiana area? Ooh! Something I didn't realize I wanted till now: Cajun nation.
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Apr 11, 2013 05:09
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I've always thought that a fun mod would be one where the assumption is that the Articles of Confederation somehow worked out for the USA. Have a bunch of pseudo independent states east of the Mississippi with the Continental Congress acting as their boss (Sort of like how Japan is set up in NNM, where there is an "imperial Japan" and then a bunch of diamyos interacting with it).
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Apr 11, 2013 05:16
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DrProsek posted:Ooh! Something I didn't realize I wanted till now: Cajun nation. Accepted culture: Anyone who can cook... spicy.
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Apr 11, 2013 06:09
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 Oh geez, the U.S. border.  I'm planning to put Sioux and Pawnee between the Dakotan Republic and the Great Lakes Combine. Not Pictured: Civilized Hawaii. 
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Apr 11, 2013 06:54
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Fintilgin posted:The CSA might be a bit powerful if everyone else is split up. Maybe split off Louisiana area? I remember in Turtledove's Southern Victory series, the African-Americans revolted during the middle of the Second American Civil War/WWI to form a Socialist Republic, but damned if I can remember the name.
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Apr 11, 2013 07:09
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