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Chasiubao posted:Probably, but it feels really really nitpicky to hold that against a candidate. Yeah. It's more a shibboleth than an actual indication of understanding.
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Apr 30, 2013 20:09
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unsanitary posted:For managers: breaking against a few of the other answers, but I'd personally prefer a github of personal projects due to two factors: - some folks use internships as paid web browsing time (unfortunately I was one of them and I'm perhaps too sensitive to this) - I'm probably not going to be able to see your code in the event it's proprietary and that means a lot; both because you were self-motivated enough to actually make something* and hopefully it's good code. * actually finish it, and preferably package it in some way for general consumption (put it up on node package manager, python package index, deploy your site somewhere, etc)
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Apr 30, 2013 23:23
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unsanitary posted:For managers: Depends on the company where you did the internship and the quality of the github content. If your internship was with Google/Microsoft/Apple/Facebook/Twitter/... then that will be something of interest to me and immediately catch my attention. However I can probably tease apart whether or not you're worth a poo poo in a phone conversation. Similarly, if you have some pretty significant work on your github account or pretty heavily involved with some project (let's say Clojure) and you have commits to Clojure mainline, that may give me even more faith in your abilities. Demonstrated ability is key. Assuming best of best internship and best of best github, I'll take the github if I have to pick one of the two, assuming personality is not in conflict with my team. Personality often means more than "demonstrated awesome sauce" in teams assuming the person is capable and willing to learn.
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May 1, 2013 00:14
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Not a manager, but an interviewer nonetheless: Having a track record of commits to a major open source project is like having an internship. Having a bunch of things on github gives me insight into your coding but other than that it doesn't tell me much. What tells me a lot is when I ask you about something you've worked on in the last year you can competently talk to the point where I have to cut you off. Similarly, I care much more about achievements you've made outside of just programming (did you manage a team or oversee the refactoring of a major chunk of code) so I know you don't just want to be told what to do every day for the next 3 years. Honestly, I get so much more out of reading through the response to our 1-day coding problem in terms of coding ability that I wonder why more companies don't do it.
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May 1, 2013 02:34
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FamDav posted:Honestly, I get so much more out of reading through the response to our 1-day coding problem in terms of coding ability that I wonder why more companies don't do it. Speaking of coding problems, I'd recommend not necessarily counting on coding homework to be brought up during the followup interview, particularly if you do it well. For one job I thought I did pretty well on the main algorithm in the problem, O(n) when many would have had O(n^2), so I was pretty cocky and didn't prepare and got utterly...destroyed. The guy was fed up and even had me say code to him over the phone, which is a loving joke. And their product was stupid so whatever. For another job I had a really bad O(n^2) bit of code somewhere and that's the only thing they brought up about it. So be prepared to answer to poor bits of code. In my defense it was a really long assignment and took like 8 hours, I was even the first person they used it on and they asked me how long it took me.
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May 1, 2013 03:49
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Thanks for the feedback. I do have a plain PDF that I actually submit to job ads, it's just more convenient to link the github version.Strong Sauce posted:It seems you have only 3 bullet points at a job you've spent 5 years working. Those three points don't sound like tasks that would take up a large amount of time to complete. If those three bullet points were big tasks that actually did take 5 years to complete, then you need to describe them better because they don't sound like something that takes 5 years to do. Since the job was web dev agency work, I was working on a new project every 2-12 weeks. It was rare to have any particular task take more than a day to complete. The company had a profit incentive to keep software projects as simple as possible, so the actual work I did was usually trivial. If it wasn't trivial, then it definitely wasn't challenging. The one specific task I listed was the only technical challenge I can remember that I'm proud of solving.
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May 1, 2013 05:01
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wide stance posted:Speaking of coding problems, I'd recommend not necessarily counting on coding homework to be brought up during the followup interview, particularly if you do it well. For one job I thought I did pretty well on the main algorithm in the problem, O(n) when many would have had O(n^2), so I was pretty cocky and didn't prepare and got utterly...destroyed. The guy was fed up and even had me say code to him over the phone, which is a loving joke. And their product was stupid so whatever. Describing code over the phone is ridiculous. We have two people who vet the coding submissions. In order of worst to best we get 1) Trivial, exponential solution (You're writing a solver for a board game) 2) Same, but with some low level optimizations which don't really improve the runtime 3) Picks the right algorithm 4) Same, but with some low level optimizations (this usually only occurs in c or c++ code) 5) Same, but with novel optimizations we have yet to see. Code quality will move you up or down a place in the rankings, but no more. We'll most likely give 4s and 5s an easier interview process than a 3, and we rarely call in a 2. No matter, you will spend an hour with the same two people who vetted your code, half of which is devoted to you explaining your code, how you felt about the time you spent on it, and what your process was. We used to do a 3-day problem (You wrote a solver for a board game plus a search algorithm for finding a highest scoring board) which is really too much for most, but I think the current process is just right. imo this is much more effective and more fair than something like two 45 minute phone interviews, and usually takes the equivalent amount of time to validate (two engineers spending anywhere between 10 minutes to an hour looking at a body of code). Anyways the takeaway is you should always be able to describe your work because how do I know you didn't copy it or implement something you read online without understanding it? If you can talk confidently, consistently, and correctly about what you gave us then you are almost definitely a hire. FamDav fucked around with this message at 06:29 on May 1, 2013 |
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May 1, 2013 06:26
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FamDav posted:Honestly, I get so much more out of reading through the response to our 1-day coding problem in terms of coding ability that I wonder why more companies don't do it. I'm HR person vetoed it saying that it could get us in trouble if it looks like we make prospective employees "work for free" or something 
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May 1, 2013 13:53
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What's the best way to dodge the "what did you make before" questions and "what are your salary requirements" questions?
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May 1, 2013 14:15
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Mr. Crow posted:What's the best way to dodge the "what did you make before" questions and "what are your salary requirements" questions? Depends on the context in which you're being asked. If you're at the point where you're doing salary negotiations, just name what you're looking for. If it's in the preliminary discussion before you interview and whatnot, I've had success saying "I'd prefer not to discuss compensation until I'm more familiar with the position" or things like that, because frankly you can't be expected to give a number until you've talked to the folks you'll be working with about exactly what it is you'll be doing.
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May 1, 2013 15:39
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I've got a big interview tomorrow with a dev, a new dev team lead, and the chief architect of a company which has in the past worked for my present, part-time employer. I've only ever had one technical interview in my life - which led to a job offer that afternoon - but I'm still a bit antsy, if only because of the fact that I'd be jumping between 'friend' businesses. The company that hooked me up with the interview has gone well out of their way to help prepare me - I'm getting a call from a coach to help me interview in about 3 hours as a matter of fact - so while I'm getting some support already, I want to ask here how to not gently caress it up since this thread's advice hasn't done me wrong so far. What are some good .NET and MVC interview questions to be on the lookout for? I already know the basics (as far as the subset of the basics that I've used day to day) and apparently know enough basic coding to get jobs and interviews, but this is my first big FULL TIME offer, so I'm antsy. I should probably just have a beer tonight and get over it. Worst case I'll just interview with the 5 other people making my phone dance like a jumping bean and get something. This really is a nice industry.
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May 1, 2013 17:30
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Mr. Crow posted:What's the best way to dodge the "what did you make before" questions and "what are your salary requirements" questions? Before a second interview I went with: "I'm not comfortable sharing that at this point" and "There are many important factors to me beyond salary". After my 2nd interview at the company I agreed with, I got positive feedback and they insinuated that an offer would be made. They gave me a ballpark range. I said that the upper end of the range was about what I was looking for and they gave me slightly more than that.
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May 1, 2013 19:00
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Cicero should update OP with talk about salary negotiation as it's getting asked over and over.
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May 1, 2013 19:09
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My top choice rejected me after a screen, two interviews, and eight weeks of waiting. Pretty glad I took Offer A. Thanks, thread!
Good Will Hrunting fucked around with this message at 20:00 on May 1, 2013 |
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May 1, 2013 19:56
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Good Will Hrunting posted:Before a second interview I went with: "I'm not comfortable sharing that at this point" and "There are many important factors to me beyond salary". This seems like good advice.
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May 1, 2013 20:54
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So I did an interview yesterday and was told to expect an e-mail today about the results. I ended up getting a phone call today instead to come in for a "meet and greet" tomorrow, please tell me this is a good sign. e: Apparently it's with people in other teams? Also, if I do end up getting an offer, they hinted it would be "non-negotiable" when I first talked to them. Can I still negotiate right away or ask them to e-mail me the details and wait awhile? It's for a co-op job by the way. Acer Pilot fucked around with this message at 21:22 on May 1, 2013 |
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May 1, 2013 21:18
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KNITS MY FEEDS posted:So I did an interview yesterday and was told to expect an e-mail today about the results. I ended up getting a phone call today instead to come in for a "meet and greet" tomorrow, please tell me this is a good sign. It does sound like a good sign. You're probably past the "is he qualified" stage and onto the "is he a good fit" stage. Sometimes, but not always, co-op jobs are actually non-negotiable based upon an agreement between the company and the school.
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May 1, 2013 21:40
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Everything is negotiable. Get the offer first. And don't get caught in the "I must ask for $x more than they offer to prove that I 'won' the negotiation" trap. Figure out what makes sense for you. (and yes, it's a good sign.)
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May 1, 2013 21:42
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KNITS MY FEEDS posted:So I did an interview yesterday and was told to expect an e-mail today about the results. I ended up getting a phone call today instead to come in for a "meet and greet" tomorrow, please tell me this is a good sign. It's a good sign. They are interested in you. The "other teams" could mean a few different things. They could think you are a better fit on another team, or the people you are meeting with get input on all new hires, or any number of other things. Wait for their offer. Try to negotiate after you get it. It's possible that you could get some type of standard college hire package that they really aren't willing to negotiate, but I've never met anybody who lost a job offer because they made a reasonable counter offer.
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May 1, 2013 22:21
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shrughes posted:Visual Studio has a version number, you might as well put it. That way it feels like you did something more real and specific with it. Or drop it, nobody really cares what you use for an IDE. I hope. I'm a BA not a programmer but at least one person in our company gives points when people list their exact IDE on a resume or mention it. The assumption being: you're probably at least a competent carpenter if you know what kind of hammer you use. Thats for entry level jobs where people do more padding and bullshitting (I imagine), for higher level stuff I assume no one cares.
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May 1, 2013 23:21
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KNITS MY FEEDS posted:So I did an interview yesterday and was told to expect an e-mail today about the results. I ended up getting a phone call today instead to come in for a "meet and greet" tomorrow, please tell me this is a good sign. I've told people they aren't getting called back within 15 minutes of a phone screen starting. Nobody in a hiring position would waste more time & effort on a reject. "Other teams" could mean people who would be depending on you or working on closely related things and want a veto power in the process. I agree with the above, sounds like you've passed the technical hurdles and it's a personality check now. If "other teams" means "we don't want you, but you might be a good fit for X" don't rule it out just on that. My first job went like that. After the day-long interview the hiring manager sent my info to another group that was a much better fit for my skills. I wouldn't have done nearly as well in the first group and I'm lucky they actually figured that out.
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May 2, 2013 00:54
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To third (or fourth?) what everyone has said, so long as you are making a serious counteroffer (and maybe have a competing offer from another co) the worst you'll hear is "No, we're only willing to do X." at which point you either take it or you leave it.Good Will Hrunting posted:My top choice rejected me after a screen, two interviews, and eight weeks of waiting. Pretty glad I took Offer A. Thanks, thread! Any good company should not accept 8 weeks of lag time between interviews and decision, unless it's been explicitly declared upfront. Once you make contact with a candidate you should keep the process efficient and professional. FamDav fucked around with this message at 01:10 on May 2, 2013 |
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May 2, 2013 01:07
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In my experience, letting them know that you might be getting other offers soon can help put some fire under their butt 
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May 2, 2013 01:19
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My HR contact left 3 weeks after I interviewed which delayed the process.Police Academy III posted:In my experience, letting them know that you might be getting other offers soon can help put some fire under their butt I did this and they told me "next week" then "next week again!". That's when I knew it wasn't looking good. Good Will Hrunting fucked around with this message at 02:09 on May 2, 2013 |
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May 2, 2013 01:54
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Another tip regarding the salary question: I've responded to multiple recruiters (who usually know the salary range) by saying I'm not comfortable discussing my salary at this point, but if they tell me the range I can tell them if it's acceptable to me. They've always given me the hard numbers and once I say "yes that's in line with my expectations", they're ready to move on. At least at that stage (before any in-person interview), they just want to make sure you're not expecting way more than they can afford, so they don't waste time.
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May 2, 2013 13:51
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tk posted:It's a good sign. They are interested in you. The "other teams" could mean a few different things. They could think you are a better fit on another team, or the people you are meeting with get input on all new hires, or any number of other things. Key word is reasonable here. And I agree fully. And it's not so much the number, but the way it was presented. My own experience on a backfire: There was one guy where after we made an offer, the way he came back and negotiated made us reconsider everything. To start with, we gave him what he originally asked for; then came back asking for 50% more. And the way he worded the request (it was an email) was so brimming with over confidence/arrogance, that we went - wow, what the heck happened here. It was also worded in such a way that you could take non negotiation (on our part) as him turning down the offer. We ended up asking to have another conversation with him, where he pretty much admitted he realized he screwed up in his request, and he wasn't familiar with negotiation. And we made nice, and it all worked out. But it could have went the other way.
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May 2, 2013 14:04
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PSA: networking with craigslist hookups is a viable strategy and the novelty of being asked what frameworks you've worked in while naked in a bathhouse hot tub is totally worth the $6 to get in. On the way back to his house we talked about how his test coverage was terrible and how I have a lot of QA experience and he said "we'll definitely have to chat about this later" and I kissed my potential boss good night before driving home. Queer people watch out for each other. Best sexual orientation ever.
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May 2, 2013 20:19
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Strong Sauce posted:Cicero should update OP with talk about salary negotiation as it's getting asked over and over. quote:I hear salary negotiating is, like, a thing
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May 2, 2013 20:27
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So I got an offer for a long term co-op and it looks like no vacation (they're giving me that pay instead) and no benefits/perks listed. It's also $200-300 lower than one of the bigger multinationals in town. What do you guys think I should do? Are insurance/benefits and a bump in salary doable? This is my first real paid job but I had a few side projects that they seemed to be impressed with.
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May 2, 2013 23:24
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it is posted:PSA: networking with craigslist hookups is a viable strategy and the novelty of being asked what frameworks you've worked in while naked in a bathhouse hot tub is totally worth the $6 to get in. This is the single greatest post I've seen in this thread.
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May 3, 2013 00:08
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Benefits for a co-op are unusual; it can be pretty expensive/impossible for an employer to enroll someone mid-year and drop them. (Insurers don't want people getting "hired" so they can get an expensive operation). You can ask but that's probably not something your average middle manager can mess with, it would be something coming from HR that applies company wide.
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May 3, 2013 02:49
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Would it be highly unusual to go to an interview in my casual clothes, with a start-up company? I bought some oxford shoes, a pair of khakis, and a nice looking button-up, but I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better just to go in my shorts, a polo, and some sneakers. The company seems to be very interested at this point-I missed the interview yesterday because I couldn't find their office (though I let them know I was at the right address, there are just like a million small businesses), and I don't have a cell phone so I couldn't call. I apologized sincerely and they rescheduled, telling me that they were disappointed because they've been most excited to interview me. I don't want to be disrespectful, but I would genuinely be more comfortable in casual clothes; it's also how I interviewed at my last position which I got.
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May 3, 2013 05:15
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Knyteguy posted:Would it be highly unusual to go to an interview in my casual clothes, with a start-up company? I bought some oxford shoes, a pair of khakis, and a nice looking button-up, but I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better just to go in my shorts, a polo, and some sneakers. The company seems to be very interested at this point-I missed the interview yesterday because I couldn't find their office (though I let them know I was at the right address, there are just like a million small businesses), and I don't have a cell phone so I couldn't call. I apologized sincerely and they rescheduled, telling me that they were disappointed because they've been most excited to interview me. I don't want to be disrespectful, but I would genuinely be more comfortable in casual clothes; it's also how I interviewed at my last position which I got. It's 2013 and you don't have a cell phone? I can understand not having a smart phone perhaps, but no cell at all? You've really damaged your chances with this company because it sounds like you're just weird, and showing up in shorts when they're already wondering what the hell is up with you is not a good decision. Go get a cell-phone. You can get one with texting capability on a pre-paid plan for less than $50, and pay less than $5 a month if you hardly use it.
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May 3, 2013 05:19
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Polo and sneakers are probably fine, although I'd be wary of wearing shorts. To me that feels a little too far along the casual spectrum. Like, there's a good chance it'd be totally fine, but I personally still wouldn't risk it. And get a cell phone, what's wrong with you.
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May 3, 2013 05:38
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Cell phone? More like a tracker. Why would you carry around a government tracking device with you everywhere?
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May 3, 2013 05:40
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You need something portable to act as your bitcoin wallet, duh. If you foolishly leave them on your desktop, any ol' burglar could come in and take 'em. This way they'd have to at least get around my wakizashi umbrella.
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May 3, 2013 05:46
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baquerd posted:It's 2013 and you don't have a cell phone? I can understand not having a smart phone perhaps, but no cell at all? You've really damaged your chances with this company because it sounds like you're just weird, and showing up in shorts when they're already wondering what the hell is up with you is not a good decision. Thanks for the help, I wasn't sure if it would be kosher to dress really casual for a start-up. Re: Cell phone: I'm slightly embarrassed to post this but my wife and I are seriously barely making it as-is; $50.00 is literally impossible because I pretty much stopped working at my last job in January (contract job) completely out of the blue, and my college has a really stupid policy on how to decide who gets work study. If it were a normal job I would be eligible for full unemployment, but I didn't know what the gently caress I was doing when I negotiated my contract. I would absolutely love to get my cellphone back, but literally every single non-essential bill we have has gone to collections. The business owner can think I'm weird, but I earnestly tried to find the place, and I let him know that; I tried at least 20 different businesses in his center asking if they knew where he was, and used another small business's computer to check the location on their website-the address wasn't listed. After searching for 45 minutes I left; it was around the corner. I fully expected to not get another opportunity with the company, and I simply e-mailed to apologize for wasting his time. He invited me back. He admitted there are no signs on any of the drat businesses in the complex, and the sign on their suite isn't even for their business, so I couldn't even know it was the right office if I was looking at it. I should have written down the suite number however, so it was a dumb move yea. This place hasn't exactly been my favorite choice though. There's no insurance, no 401k, I would be the only engineer in a company of 3 (2 of which are owners), the salary is only OK, and I basically would be in charge of what technical choices the company makes. While I do this at the company I (sparingly) contract for now, I was really hoping I could work with some cool dudes who know more than I do, that I could learn from too. So not to be a jerk because I would appreciate some work, but they're not even close to my top choice right now (I'm waiting on at least two more companies who I've interviewed with or who have expressed interest). My wife is also interviewing next Friday for a corporate management position in Berkeley/Redwood City that would be a huge boon for us, so I'm also weary to commit to a job until we find out what happens with that. She definitely has a good chance and while I'm not relying on that, I would turn down pretty much any non-Silicon Valley position if she got that job anyway. It will be much easier for me to get a really good job in the next few years than for her to in a retail setting. e: Summary: I'm loving broke and we can't afford even the cheapest cell phone; assholes  !
Knyteguy fucked around with this message at 06:27 on May 3, 2013 |
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May 3, 2013 05:52
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Strong Sauce posted:Cicero should update OP with talk about salary negotiation as it's getting asked over and over. And probably mention that there are some companies (e.g. Google, Microsoft) that you cannot negotiate salary with out of college. Slight amounts of negotiation can be had for industry hires but it's rare.
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May 3, 2013 17:05
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rufius posted:And probably mention that there are some companies (e.g. Google, Microsoft) that you cannot negotiate salary with out of college. Slight amounts of negotiation can be had for industry hires but it's rare. Given that MS offers 100K starting w/ 50K stock options to college new hires, I don't know any students that would feel compelled to negotiate that. :p I don't know if anyone offers a higher starting salary for college students?
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May 3, 2013 17:35
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Welp, guess I'm going to apply to Microsoft.
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