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CLAM DOWN posted:^^^ I understand what you're saying, but I have a feeling we're never going to agree on this and would rather not go back and forth about it. Just judging by your avatar, you must really like TSW, and I thought it was one of the worst MMOs I've played in recent years. I think we just have very different standards and expectations here, which is fine! The avatar was actually forced on me in the same way SFD often picks the people with the highest post counts in threads to advertise themselves  But no, I didn't like the combat in TSW all that much and one of my biggest gripes about it WAS how floaty it was. I also dislike the very small cap to active abilities and always felt like I could use at least another set of abilities to handle different situations. I much preferred combat in GW2. The story, actual instances, "leveling" system and investigation missions were leagues more memorable than most other things in GW2. Even though as a game, GW2 was still overall better, it just doesn't have anything that really stands out outside of the overworld leveling. Minsky posted:Neverwinter has similar combat as GW2, but it roots you to the ground for even the most basic attacks (I think--I confess I've mostly played control wizard in that game though I've at least tried all classes) and doesn't suffer from that issue. Rooting you in place of course has its own downsides, but I personally am okay with it because it makes it more difficult to avoid standing in fire, which is also a big part of Neverwinter combat. In wildstar everything I've seen points to attacks rooting you, but they still dont look like they have a whole lot of force behind them. Sure, they might look better than most of the older games but against some of the newer MMO that are out or in the pipeline they dont look good at all. Cao Ni Ma fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Jun 3, 2013 |
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Jun 3, 2013 23:47
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Harrow posted:That sort of windmill thing doesn't help either. I have to imagine there are better ways to do moving attack animations than making it look like your legs aren't even attached to the same body as your torso/arms. I think the two most common ways of doing it are to animate the upper torso and legs separately, so that most things can be done while moving - the upper body animating the attack, the lower body running. The other is to just animate the full body, but they usually root you to do this so you don't just slide around everywhere. I imagine if combat wants you to be mobile and such, that most things would be upper body only. Otherwise it gets pretty painful.
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Jun 3, 2013 23:57
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Harrow posted:Part of this "floaty" feeling in GW2, to me, comes from the running animation. It doesn't look particularly connected to the ground, despite the fact that there's a noticeable "acceleration" animation when you start moving. I think the Asura actually feel the best, probably because they have a lot of small steps instead of longer strides. It's not that the movement is actually imprecise--it isn't, as far as I can tell--it just looks floaty and thus "feels" that way to some people. I'm not an animator, but I imagine that a part of what makes a swing from a big weapon look convincingly "heavy" is that it should be obvious there's momentum behind the swing. The way to show that visually I guess is to show your body bracing to maintain balance, and I don't know if it's even possible show such a thing if the bottom half of your body is currently executing any kind of running animation. This then indirectly makes the weapon you're swinging look lighter than it is because how can you possibly swing something heavy while running around like that, which then creates the windmill look if the weapon happens to be something like a huge two-handed sword or hammer. Cao Ni Ma posted:Thats part of it yes, the developers even went and outright said it. I still think things like the ragdoll physics help as well given how they fly out when you hit them. At least on my GWF, with its wide swings and high crit, it felt like I was hitting like a truckas every single trash mob started flying everywhere. You're right that there's certainly a lot other things that have to come together and I don't think rooting alone is sufficient. Rooting also can only work if there's a really responsive and fluid way to cancel out of an attack animation. If that's not there, then I'd rather have floaty WOW-style combat any day. I think Neverwinter and Tera do it best though from all the MMOs that I've played. I think there's a lot of non MMOs though (namely most of the fighting game genre) that do it even better. As far as TSW, I only played it at release, but let's just say that in my opinion the combat animations were probably the part I liked least about it (while the setting, missions and dungeon bosses were all fantastic).
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Jun 4, 2013 00:32
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Minsky posted:I'm not an animator, but I imagine that a part of what makes a swing from a big weapon look convincingly "heavy" is that it should be obvious there's momentum behind the swing. The way to show that visually I guess is to show your body bracing to maintain balance, and I don't know if it's even possible show such a thing if the bottom half of your body is currently executing any kind of running animation. This then indirectly makes the weapon you're swinging look lighter than it is because how can you possibly swing something heavy while running around like that, which then creates the windmill look if the weapon happens to be something like a huge two-handed sword or hammer. I think you're almost certainly right, at least from my casual observations. It's probably why I feel like combat is tighter in Tera, because the attacks either root you in place or carry you with their own momentum, so everything looks like it has the appropriate weight. Probably the best middle-ground here is to have attacks root you in place, but allow you to voluntarily move or at least use your dodge-roll to cancel the attack, and make sure that a lot of melee attacks have movement components involved in them (so you're not often standing still swinging at air). Of course, allowing animation-canceling would require some careful balancing, since I'm sure there'll be some wonderfully min-max way to cancel each move at the exact right frame to maximize DPS.
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Jun 4, 2013 00:49
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Something I notice in many video games is the lack of enemy reactions to being hit or shot. It's very jarring to take a big swing at a guy and see nothing but a number pop up. Even if it has only an aesthetic purpose, adding body reactions to being hit, in my opinion, goes a very long way in making combat feel fun and impactful.
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Jun 4, 2013 00:52
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Harrow posted:Probably the best middle-ground here is to have attacks root you in place, but allow you to voluntarily move or at least use your dodge-roll to cancel the attack, and make sure that a lot of melee attacks have movement components involved in them (so you're not often standing still swinging at air). Of course, allowing animation-canceling would require some careful balancing, since I'm sure there'll be some wonderfully min-max way to cancel each move at the exact right frame to maximize DPS. Animation weaving is something that happens even in more traditional MMOs. I remember weaving my active attacks with my auto attacks in aion to maximize damage.  TERA allows you to dodge roll or guard to break the animation. Im pretty sure B&S lets you parry between animations. Its mostly a defensive thing since guards and rolls have internal cooldowns so doing it to increase your damage will just gently caress you up when the enemies decide to attack. Im almost certain this is the case with Wildstar as well.
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Jun 4, 2013 00:56
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“Gentlemen, you had my curiosity… but now you have my attention.” Calvin Candie, expressing the very same sentiment I experienced when I discovered Wildstar will boast player housing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IDasSMtoDs
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Jun 4, 2013 01:01
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Dracula Factory posted:Something I notice in many video games is the lack of enemy reactions to being hit or shot. It's very jarring to take a big swing at a guy and see nothing but a number pop up. Even if it has only an aesthetic purpose, adding body reactions to being hit, in my opinion, goes a very long way in making combat feel fun and impactful. GW2 didn't do this, but I did like that it has different death animations for different types of murder. I remember the first time I killed a bandit with a Chain Lightning as my Elementalist and he got electrocuted and made a goofy noise and fell over. It's a really nice touch, and I agree it'd be great if enemies actually physically reacted to getting hit reliably.
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Jun 4, 2013 01:05
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I wonder why they don't just make it so every enemy has a flinch animation that only plays and plays for you when you hit the person. I don't think seeing the guy go into like super twitchy mode like raid bosses sometimes do is important, but like, seeing a guy reel back when YOU hit them will at least provide the most awesome feeling while not looking super buggy. Also, animation tells aren't as important in Wildstar because they have that AoE indicator. Edit: Hitreel animations are like, one of the big things of most combat oriented games (like DmC style stuff, or fighting games), those along with your character's animations (windup/recovery with a key dynamic pose when the attack hits and is synched with other stuff), particles, sound and also hitstun/stop (which isn't going to be put into an MMO, let's be reaL) all add to the power of an attack. Adding as much of this as possible and making it all feel good and in line with all of the other parts do the most of making combat feel awesome without even dealing with the mechanics. anime was right fucked around with this message at 01:16 on Jun 4, 2013 |
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Jun 4, 2013 01:13
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Excited by the prospect of arena and an ELO system. Now it's completely up to the Wildstar team to give PVP enough complexity to make it engaging/exciting. I'm not entirely sure this will be possible given the multitude of "new" gameplay types they're trying to insert into the game, as PVP in any game probably needs more than a handful of developers attention to be done right. A good start would be giving players a large toolbox instead of, say, the 12 button massive piece of poo poo that was GW2. e: At least they've simplified faction choice. God bless anyone who seriously thinks that anyone who rolls Aurin won't be some sort of hosed up little weirdo. rest his guts fucked around with this message at 11:32 on Jun 4, 2013 |
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Jun 4, 2013 11:25
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Fly McCool posted:Excited by the prospect of arena and an ELO system. As long as they don't copy absolutely anything from WoW arenas. Multi-round (at least bo5) arena matches where things actually die would be nice. Also add 1v1 arena, who the gently caress cares if it's impossible to balance, give it lower rewards (e.g. vanity-only) or something. e: also never mention eSports in any context ever Double Bill fucked around with this message at 12:15 on Jun 4, 2013 |
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Jun 4, 2013 12:08
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Fly McCool posted:A good start would be giving players a large toolbox instead of, say, the 12 button massive piece of poo poo that was GW2.
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Jun 4, 2013 12:49
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I think having 8-10 active abilities is fine if your combat isnt absolute poo poo. Most rotations wont have you press more than 5 buttons, some of them are as brain dead as spamming a single button till a proc triggers and then change which button you press during the execute phase. Most games now days are moving away from huge amounts of attacks as baseline because quite frankly, you never really did press those buttons 99/100 times. The easiest example of overblown amount of abilities that serve little to no purpose is SWTOR. You could take down half abilities or have talents supplant some baselines instead of giving you an altogether new ability and it would have drastically cut down on toolbar clutter. Cao Ni Ma fucked around with this message at 13:00 on Jun 4, 2013 |
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Jun 4, 2013 12:58
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Double Bill posted:As long as they don't copy absolutely anything from WoW arenas. I don't know what game you're playing (played?) but the state of WoW arena right now is one in which things die in the first-third minute of a match in a single global. In some cases you have to work to set that global up, but there are many classes capable of simply training their opponent while outdamaging healing with only a modest amount of CC. The burst is that insane. If you play wizards vs wizards, assuming both teams are about equal skill level, things die after 20+ minutes and favorable RNG. How these games go depend almost entirely on the comps you play. Which I agree is not ideal. However, there are a few things I would like to see implemented from WoW arena. There is a huge amount of diversity not only between classes, but within the same class as well. For example, a destruction warlock and an affliction warlock have a completely different feel. I am not 100% sure how talents and internal class specializations will work out or if they will be included in the game at all, but if they are I think this will only improve the quality of the game. Second, as I suppose I've already expressed, I like having more rather than less utility, which usually means more buttons to push. While including more buttons is not the only way to raise the skill cap of a game to a level to engage more PVP minded individuals, it is a time tested one and one that I am pleased with. Finally, I happen to prefer longer games to shorter games. When WoW arena is decently balanced, longer games tend to be the result of the plethora of ways in which your enemies and you have to shut each other down (usually as be the result of CC or defensive strategy). I realize I am most likely in the minority in regards to that particular point of view, but I think if you remove utility PVP just becomes too simplistic. Despite the length of some games, the pace of WoW arena is actually pretty fast by MMO standards for PVP. Perhaps the challenge for the Wildstar team will be in identifying ways to make the games quick without sacrificing pace or complexity.
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Jun 4, 2013 13:16
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You can still get plenty of customization out of a class in a limited-toolbar system if you create more skills than the toolbar can hold, as in GW1. Then you can be your special snowflake (read, play whatever the top build is) and we don't have to deal with 40-button ability bars.
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Jun 4, 2013 13:36
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Cao Ni Ma posted:I think having 8-10 active abilities is fine if your combat isnt absolute poo poo. Most rotations wont have you press more than 5 buttons, some of them are as brain dead as spamming a single button till a proc triggers and then change which button you press during the execute phase. Most games now days are moving away from huge amounts of attacks as baseline because quite frankly, you never really did press those buttons 99/100 times. Maybe that was the case in SW:TOR, and I know I am beginning to sound like a huge Blizzard apologist despite my contempt for the current state of WoW PVP, but I think their combat system is set up in a way that pretty much every single one of your spells or abilities for virtually all classes serves some purpose in PVP while many of the same spells were significantly less useful in PVE or more specifically endgame PVE. GW2 PVP felt clunky and awkward and removed a large portion of the skill cap with auto targeting. On top of that, trying to kill an enemy while they try and kill you, especially with a comparatively vastly limited number of ways to counter that damage, just seems boring to me and most people I imagine. It just creates for scenarios where offense is always your greatest defense which greatly reduces the importance and variability of strategy (comparatively). I just hope Wildstar doesn't make the same mistakes. e: Also I think the first part of the above quote might be in regards to PVE only? Hopefully there isn't a PVP rotation in this game at all. rest his guts fucked around with this message at 13:46 on Jun 4, 2013 |
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Jun 4, 2013 13:37
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Cao Ni Ma posted:I think having 8-10 active abilities is fine if your combat isnt absolute poo poo. Most rotations wont have you press more than 5 buttons, some of them are as brain dead as spamming a single button till a proc triggers and then change which button you press during the execute phase. Most games now days are moving away from huge amounts of attacks as baseline because quite frankly, you never really did press those buttons 99/100 times. I disagree that the problem with MMO combat is that of a rotation. That's like saying that combo strings are what makes fighting games bad. The hotbar is just an interface which allows for many different options. The problem is brain dead enemy encounters. When a fight is just a DPS race where each side executes their strategy without much interaction from the opponent, it's incredibly boring (unless the execution is difficult to perform or the combat is really quick). Dodging is a good start and 'avoiding fire' IS a good gameplay mechanic because it forces you to break out of a combat rotation in most games - even non MMOs. Interrupts and counterspells also add to the complexity in positive ways.
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Jun 4, 2013 13:42
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Wall of text incoming. quote:Paths are Wildstars way of adding depth to you character and give you unique content based on the way you like to play. We have 4 possible paths to choose that will give you a variety of content to do alongside your normal questing which in turn provides you a number of rewards.
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Jun 4, 2013 13:45
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Tezzeract posted:I disagree that the problem with MMO combat is that of a rotation. That's like saying that combo strings are what makes fighting games bad. The hotbar is just an interface which allows for many different options. Hell, rotations have to be kept simple because of the amount of poo poo raid instances throw at you now days. Saying that they are brain dead dps races isn't really true at all and only applies to brain dead leveling experience for the most part. e- I wonder if scientist get like an actual UI window with lore and information on the things they've discovered. I love bestiaries and things like that. If engineers really use rifles and are dps/healers, I might go Engi/Scientist at launch. Cao Ni Ma fucked around with this message at 14:08 on Jun 4, 2013 |
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Jun 4, 2013 13:52
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Going explorer, no question
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Jun 4, 2013 14:00
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Cao Ni Ma posted:Im not saying the issue is the rotations, Im saying that having a bloated toolbar is a dumb thing that most new MMOs are trying to avoid. Even WoW is condensing their toolbars with how specializations work now. Rift does away with all of it with their macros. TSW has like 6 buttons, NWO has like 8, GW2 has like 14?
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Jun 4, 2013 14:20
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Macaluso posted:Going explorer, no question Scientist or Settler, i dont care whats the best. 
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Jun 4, 2013 14:22
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Probad posted:You can still get plenty of customization out of a class in a limited-toolbar system if you create more skills than the toolbar can hold, as in GW1. Then you can be your special snowflake (read, play whatever the top build is) and we don't have to deal with 40-button ability bars. I'm pretty sure this is exactly what they're doing.
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Jun 4, 2013 14:23
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Cao Ni Ma posted:If engineers really use rifles and are dps/healers, I might go Engi/Scientist at launch. Engi is going to be DPS/Tank with the Medic being DPS/Healer it looks like unless they make more dps/healer then dps/tank classes. Though tanking people by shooting them in face doesn't seem all that bad
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Jun 4, 2013 14:36
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Streyr posted:Engi is going to be DPS/Tank with the Medic being DPS/Healer it looks like unless they make more dps/healer then dps/tank classes. Though tanking people by shooting them in face doesn't seem all that bad  . Oh well, I can see them tanking using turrets and poo poo like that.Any idea what weapons the medics are going to use? I like that spell slingers are pistols dps/heals but I have a feeling everyone and their grandmother will run that class at launch.
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Jun 4, 2013 14:40
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I'm probably going warrior explorer because having that much mobility and a blind seems really good for a melee class.
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Jun 4, 2013 14:43
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There's some obvious synergy there, such as the Warrior and Soldier build, but the nice thing is that the paths grant abilities that can help round out your character. I'm still totally digging the idea of the Medic (Assuming that is one of the unannounced classes) and the settler.
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Jun 4, 2013 14:56
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Those all look like fun and I'm going to have trouble deciding Probably going Settler for my main because building poo poo is awesome.
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Jun 4, 2013 17:13
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Zerchi posted:From IRC:
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Jun 4, 2013 17:40
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I don't understand this and the person who wrote it probably doesn't either. Bags (Slots 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 12) awarded at Rank 3, 7, 12, 17, 22, 30 So, you get bag slots 1-3, 6, 9, and 11 without doing these missions? Or is it saying you get a bag with 4 slots and eventually 12? Sounds kinda terrible for a reward unless I am missing something. I hope to god I can just get bags without having to do missions or pay real money. I really loving hate how that is always one of the biggest cash grabs is buy god drat bags with real money. Neverwinter is the worst offender of this. 10 dollars for a loving bag.
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Jun 4, 2013 18:21
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Meowbot posted:I don't understand this and the person who wrote it probably doesn't either.
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Jun 4, 2013 18:44
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Maybe it's the number of bagslots?
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Jun 4, 2013 19:03
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https://twitter.com/team_wildstar/status/341615437823496192 Anyone organizing a 40-man goon test guild? If so, count me in!
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Jun 4, 2013 19:10
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Some brave goon needs to step up and organize a 40 member test team. Not it! I don't want to burn out from
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Jun 4, 2013 19:21
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grrarg posted:Some brave goon needs to step up and organize a 40 member test team. 10 bucks says we have raiding drama/burnout and a splinter before the game even comes out.
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Jun 4, 2013 19:24
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Interview with Polycount about stuff. 3 pages of Wildstar goodness: http://www.polycount.com/2013/06/03/wildstar-behind-the-scenes/#start-reading
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Jun 4, 2013 19:30
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CLAM DOWN posted:Every attack has a solid meaty sound and feel to it That's the meatball sub in your lap. CLAM DOWN posted:weight behind everything I mostly played gw2 with audio off and combat still felt weighty and precise to me, except during lag spikes.
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Jun 4, 2013 19:32
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Streyr posted:Engi is going to be DPS/Tank with the Medic being DPS/Healer it looks like unless they make more dps/healer then dps/tank classes. Though tanking people by shooting them in face doesn't seem all that bad Apparently Engineers will tank by equipping a giant suit of robotic armor and getting into melee. Truly the best class.
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Jun 4, 2013 19:38
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Pawl posted:Apparently Engineers will tank by equipping a giant suit of robotic armor and getting into melee. I am in love.
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Jun 4, 2013 19:40
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FoolishLobster posted:Interview with Polycount about stuff. 3 pages of Wildstar goodness: This is a great read. It's all about the art and style of the game basically, and I'm glad they put so much thought into it. quote:The animation style is really cool. Animation inspiration?  Also the lead art guy or whatever that used to work on the game originally is now at Disney
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Jun 4, 2013 19:49
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