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The gang could probably have saved the world a lot of trouble if they had slit Bayaz's throat when he was clonked out after expending all that energy. Granted, at the time they didn't know what a vicious greedy sunuvabitch he was, and he might have had some other form of defense that we don't know about. And even so, the moments when he's vulnerable like that are pretty rare. He'll probably live another thousand years forging and destroying empires without giving a drat about any of the millions who must suffer or die so he can play chessmaster.
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Jun 9, 2013 06:26
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Bhodi posted:Yuru seems to be sent off on business regularly, he doesn't seem to really act as a bodyguard. It's possible he has other apprentices, but none have been mentioned in any of the books. He was pretty tired from blowing out that wall, and there have been mentions that magic is much harder now and doing the smallest of spells makes him sweat. Sure, he can explode any individual he sees coming, but who's going to let him see them coming? It wouldn't be out of character for him to have a very well equipped and well connected personal secret police routing out any threats or plots against him. I know I'm going outside the text on that but given his rivalry with Khalul and talent for subterfuge, it almost seems a given. Keep in mind too that Bayaz spends the majority of time living in magically protected secrecy, and only pops into the public limelight every couple centuries to work his schemes or fix up his pet nation.
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Jun 9, 2013 08:25
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Bhodi posted:Yuru seems to be sent off on business regularly, he doesn't seem to really act as a bodyguard. It's possible he has other apprentices, but none have been mentioned in any of the books. He was pretty tired from blowing out that wall, and there have been mentions that magic is much harder now and doing the smallest of spells makes him sweat. Sure, he can explode any individual he sees coming, but who's going to let him see them coming? Crossbows don't work like they do in Skyrim. There are no sneak attacks and critical hits. They are not assassin weapons. Crossbows aren't particularly concealable or accurate to the point where you could snipe someone. Hunting range on a modern compound crossbow with a scope is like 50 yards maximum if you're a really really good shot. A 250 yard shot is taken under perfect conditions on a stationary target using modern technology. Sniping is the worst way to assassinate someone prior to the invention of high powered rifles. He's also got control of Jezal's security team, along with a whole cast of cannibal wizards we haven't met yet. Not only that, if you don't manage to get a shot in his eye or neck or heart he's just going to throw a massive fireball in the general direction the bolt flew from. Who knows about Bayaz, anyway? Really knows about him? Pretty much just his merry band of adventurers and Calder, none of whom are in a position to go up against God. Shenkt could probably take him out if he was able to get within reach of him and do his thing. Poison might do it. Who knows. It's not a plot hole that no one has killed the most powerful human being on the planet yet. Bayaz is not fundamentally squishy just because he's a caster class, we are not privy to what he is actually capable of and if it's established that someone as absolutely shitheaded as Bayaz can survive for a thousand years then we can assume he doesn't have anything to worry about from some punk with a ranged weapon that's only effective when fired in volleys by dozens or hundreds or thousands of people. Sexgun Rasputin fucked around with this message at 11:05 on Jun 9, 2013 |
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Jun 9, 2013 10:55
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Yeah, it'll be interesting to see if his screwing around with cannon and gunpowder is going to come back and bite him in 50-100 years, or however long it takes someone to develop a reasonably accurate musket. Or if he just stands too close to a battlefield and a stray cannonball takes his head off. The end. No moral.
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Jun 9, 2013 12:03
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Did Bayaz mention why he doesn't just become an Eater? I can't think it's any moral objection to dining on soylent green.
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Jun 9, 2013 13:08
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Neurosis posted:Did Bayaz mention why he doesn't just become an Eater? I can't think it's any moral objection to dining on soylent green. Doesn't he mention the addiction part, or was that another character?
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Jun 9, 2013 14:13
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Not My Goodies posted:Crossbows don't work like they do in Skyrim. There are no sneak attacks and critical hits. They are not assassin weapons. I guess he's got to have sorcererous protection that hasn't been mentioned anywhere in 6 books. Though I don't think anything has broken his skin, so maybe he does have some of the abilities of an Eater. As an side, when they showed up, they seemed overly, ridiculously strong. Like the terminator. Properly used, a cadre of them should have allowed easy takeover of the world much faster than by conventional armies, especially with the decade+ head start they have on Bayaz, who is presumably now training up his own guys to counter. I vaguely recall poison won't work on him, but I can't recall why. I sort of assume any attack that gives him between a few seconds and a few minutes and does not incapacitate him completely is time enough for him to counter. Poison (even though it doesn't really work the way written in the books) included. It would have to be something devastating and final, like a cannonball or rocks falling from the sky, or something going into his brain or possibly heart before he can react. The idea of him randomly dying to a gunpowder-launched cannonball is pretty hilarious, and would sort of be in keeping with the world. I just don't like circular arguments to explain things; the idea that he can't die to a lucky shot because he's lived so long he obviously hasn't died to a lucky shot just stands out in an otherwise consistent and well designed world. Bhodi fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Jun 9, 2013 |
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Jun 9, 2013 15:16
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Neurosis posted:Did Bayaz mention why he doesn't just become an Eater? I can't think it's any moral objection to dining on soylent green. I'm pretty sure it's mostly an arrogance thing. He wants to show he's better than Khalul without stooping to Eating.
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Jun 9, 2013 16:25
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Neurosis posted:Did Bayaz mention why he doesn't just become an Eater? I can't think it's any moral objection to dining on soylent green. And if at some future date he absolutely needs the power boost, he can start chowing down.
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Jun 9, 2013 18:02
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Bhodi posted:True; I was trying to talk in general terms, replace 'sneak attack' with 'the advantage of surprise' and 'crossbow' with any weapon at all. I was simply suggesting the almost tropeish scenario of the archer on the roof across the street would take him down given the information available. Being under a hundred yards, someone not requiring decades of training, and a readily available target with a routine (council meetings). I don't understand, isn't this an argument that can be made for literally every powerful person in these books and others? Why aren't they just assassinated? Maybe because they are constantly surrounded by loyal guards, the places they spent most of their time in aren't exactly open for public and they employ several massive spy organizations, some of who have magical powers, who treat every potential threat with extreme prejudice. Bayaz has the royal guard and army, the inquisitors, Valint and Balk and his disciples all providing security for him, it's very doubtful that some random chucklefuck can just sneak stab him or whatever. Most powerful people are pretty impervious to assassinations for similar reasons, it's not a plot hole.
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Jun 9, 2013 18:45
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DarkCrawler posted:Most powerful people are pretty impervious to assassinations for similar reasons, it's not a plot hole. I had forgotten the huge spy operation; I wonder how many actual spies they catch? As I recall, 'spy theory', that is, codified government trained and sanctioned spying as we'd think of it today is a 20th century invention. But an Eater could do a whole lot, assuming they can't be detected magically somehow. Bhodi fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Jun 9, 2013 |
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Jun 9, 2013 19:10
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Bhodi posted:What? Assassinations are crazily common through all parts of real history and fiction alike. There are endless examples of assassination as a political tool and many, many succeed. I'll agree that most powerful people are pretty impervious to incompetent, spur of the moment, or rogue assassinations. A lot of good reasons have been posted about why it would be difficult to organize an attempt against Bayaz' life in particular, but I think the biggest one for me is that Bayaz is just not very well known on a personal level and doesn't have a lot of enemies. He's a legendary figure who rarely appears and the only person to have it out for him is Khalul. Even things like the massacre he brought on in Ardua are unlikely to be attributed to him by people in the Union, because he controls the propaganda dept. Above Our Own fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Jun 9, 2013 |
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Jun 9, 2013 19:55
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Bhodi posted:What? Assassinations are crazily common through all parts of real history and fiction alike. There are endless examples of assassination as a political tool and many, many succeed. I'll agree that most powerful people are pretty impervious to incompetent, spur of the moment, or rogue assassinations. They are only pretty common in the Roman Empire, and that was because the Praetorian Guard was easier to buy off then a crack whore. The vast majority of powerful politicians, kings, emperors, whatever, did not die of assassination despite them having countless enemies. You tally the list of people who get assassinated with all the world leaders in history and I doubt you'll get past two percent. Possibly even one. Bhodi posted:I had forgotten the huge spy operation; I wonder how many actual spies they catch? As I recall, 'spy theory', that is, codified government trained and sanctioned spying as we'd think of it today is a 20th century invention. But an Eater could do a whole lot, assuming they can't be detected magically somehow. Not really, there have always been intelligence organizations. "Spymasters" etc. Nowhere near as sophisticated as the things we have now but then again nothing is. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Jun 9, 2013 |
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Jun 9, 2013 21:54
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This is such a huge thread, the last couple of pages are all in-depth discussion about the characters and universe. I just finished Red Country. So that's it then. I devoured all his books in a matter of a few weeks, and now I don't know where to turn. I'm really looking forward to the next trilogy, but that should take a year or two, I suppose. What did you guys move on to after finishing Abercrombie's books? In my eyes, his stuff is 10/10. "Epic fiction" is usually really cringeworthy, and I dread having to dig through a whole bunch of poo poo to find another peanut. How does Scott Lynch compare to Abercrombie?
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Jun 11, 2013 13:30
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Menses at Work posted:This is such a huge thread, the last couple of pages are all in-depth discussion about the characters and universe. Scott Lynch is pretty good. I've only read Lies Of Locke Lamora, but it was exciting and fun to read. Camorr as a setting is totally rad. You could do a lot worse than picking that up.
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Jun 11, 2013 13:48
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Down With People posted:Scott Lynch is pretty good. I've only read Lies Of Locke Lamora, but it was exciting and fun to read. Camorr as a setting is totally rad. You could do a lot worse than picking that up. Thanks! Went ahead and bought Lies on my kindle, three minutes after finishing Red Country. I suppose a lot of people have asked what to pick up next after 60-odd pages? If so, I'll start working my way back. I did look into Mark Lawrence, but judging from Goodreads reviews, he might not be what I am looking for. Maybe I'll give Erikson another chance.
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Jun 11, 2013 14:09
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The closest I've ever gotten to anything Abercrombie's style is Tarantino movies, so you're sort of hosed in the book front. It's frustrating, this guy has spoiled me on fantasy literature 
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Jun 11, 2013 20:25
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Mieville's pretty good, but he's a stylistic 180 from Abercrombie.
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Jun 12, 2013 20:22
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It's a bit older, but how about Glen Cook's The Black Company? Granted, I've been kind of slack on it, and have only finished about 1/2 of the first book, but so far it seems pretty good.
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Jun 12, 2013 20:26
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SpannerX posted:It's a bit older, but how about Glen Cook's The Black Company? It goes downhill kind of fast after the second book (if you're reading the the collections). Edit: By second book, I mean the second collection of stories, Books of the South. So, book 6 maybe? I was always a little confused by that. The third and fourth collections I thought were weaker than the first two. Everyone makes really good points, they aren't really bad in an RA Salvatore way, just really different than what came before with different characters. I don't regret reading them , I just liked the first few omnibuses alot more. For the people who like nonstandard fantasy, check out Glen Wolf. Also the Night Angel Trilogy by Brent Weeks is pretty good too, but has some very weak spots. Your Gay Uncle fucked around with this message at 09:39 on Jun 13, 2013 |
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Jun 12, 2013 22:54
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Does it? drat. Oh well, I'll still give it a shot. Don't really have much else to read right now. I could re-read the Gap series by Donaldson shiver
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Jun 12, 2013 23:29
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The first three books are perfectly fine. After that, things get murky. I haven't read the subsequent books, I generally hear either "Skip them they're awful" or "They're fine, just weird."
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Jun 12, 2013 23:37
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They aren't bad, but they do go off in a number of unexpected directions.
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Jun 12, 2013 23:47
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I thought The Black Company was good right up to the end, it just changes a hell of a lot. Cook probably wasn't sure where he was going with the series so it ended up in weird places. If you expect every book to be like a Vietnam vet's war journal like the first couple books are, then yeah I can see people getting disappointed. But read the first three books and The Silver Spike side-story, they own.
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Jun 12, 2013 23:50
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The best description that I've come across for The Black Company is that it is like The Lord of the Rings told from the point of view of a medic in Sauron's army.
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Jun 13, 2013 00:39
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Agreeing. The initial Black Company trilogy was a great read, but the subsequent novels where they travel south gets really weird and strung out.
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Jun 13, 2013 00:54
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Black Company is 10 books, currently collected into four omnibuses (omnibi?). The first three books are the Books Of The North, and they are great. An elite mercenary unit ends up working for the Big Bad Evil Overlord(ess) and things get...complicated. The second omnibus contains a follow-on novel from the first, and the two Books of the South, where the (very few) surviving members of the mercenary unit decide to head south in search of...something. I liked them a lot, but I'm a sucker for non-standard fantasy analogue cultures (you get fantasy-Zulus, a fantasy-India with fantasy-Buddhists and fantasy-Hindus and fantasy-Thugees, and even a fantasy-Vietnam). The third and fourth omnibuses contain the four books of The Glittering Plain, which are long, discursive, wandering, and strangely plotted. I doubt I would have finished them if I hadn't been so keen on the characters from the first trilogy and willing to slog to anything to learn how it all ends up. Read 'em in order, quit when you stop enjoying them. But definitely pick up the first trilogy.
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Jun 13, 2013 01:04
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Oh Snapple! posted:After that, things get murky. I haven't read the subsequent books, I generally hear either "Skip them they're awful" or "They're fine, just weird." Slantedfloors fucked around with this message at 01:11 on Jun 13, 2013 |
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Jun 13, 2013 01:06
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Bhodi posted:What? Assassinations are crazily common through all parts of real history and fiction alike. There are endless examples of assassination as a political tool and many, many succeed. I'll agree that most powerful people are pretty impervious to incompetent, spur of the moment, or rogue assassinations. Julius Caesar and a few others notwithstanding, political assassination wasn't really even a tool until VMRO started in the late 19th century and various anarchist and nationalist groups copied them. Medieval nobility was considered to have divine right to rule so assassination would have been a mortal sin against God in Islam and Christianity. Even then, assassination was very imprecise. Usually it involved a pistol fired several times at short range or a bomb thrown into an enclosed space. Your "trope" of the archer on the rooftop is inspired by the Kennedy assassination, which obviously took place many technological leaps past The First Law.
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Jun 16, 2013 22:55
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Read the first trilogy and the Silver Spike, definitely. After that read more and see if you like it, just be aware that it never returns to the style of the first three books. So if you're waiting for that, don't bother.
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Jun 16, 2013 23:10
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:Julius Caesar and a few others notwithstanding, political assassination wasn't really even a tool until VMRO started in the late 19th century and various anarchist and nationalist groups copied them. Medieval nobility was considered to have divine right to rule so assassination would have been a mortal sin against God in Islam and Christianity. Even then, assassination was very imprecise. Usually it involved a pistol fired several times at short range or a bomb thrown into an enclosed space. On the other hand, the Assassins developed in the Islamic world in the Middle Ages. They killed two Caliphs and an uncountable number of other people in order to keep everyone in fear. They also didn't mind if they died in the process, and that mindset might give an assassin an edge over Bayaz or Khalul. Especially if the assassin posed as a bodyguard or a friend for years or decades at first. I find it interesting how the real world Assassins found their end after trying to assassinate a Mongol Khan. He got so pissed he stormed their unstormanle fortress. The organization that could kill anyone got its rear end handed to itself by an army that could kill everyone.
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Jun 17, 2013 09:25
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I just finished the Black Company series, two days ago...going to go ahead, and join the chorus of folks suggesting it. If you enjoy Abercrombie, you'll likely enjoy Cook's series. I even really enjoyed the weird directions that it went, once I got over missing the narrator of the first three novels.
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Jun 17, 2013 18:56
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Rurik posted:On the other hand, the Assassins developed in the Islamic world in the Middle Ages. They killed two Caliphs and an uncountable number of other people in order to keep everyone in fear. They also didn't mind if they died in the process, and that mindset might give an assassin an edge over Bayaz or Khalul. Especially if the assassin posed as a bodyguard or a friend for years or decades at first. The Ismailis killed one Seljuk vizir, Jagatai Khan, and a few Christian nobles; they never killed any Caliphs. Most of those were also at the behest and with the aid of political rivals of those they killed. Given that the Gurkish would have to sneak an assassin into the Union under the nose of the Inquisition, find a millennia old archmage who has the power to level entire cities, and then knife him in close quarters... well, I don't think it's a realistic worry for Bayaz. Bayaz doesn't have any friends, either, and his 'bodyguard' is an Eater. Shenkt was probably the most likely to be able to kill him, but obviously he did not do so when he had the chance.
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Jun 17, 2013 19:54
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:The Ismailis killed one Seljuk vizir, Jagatai Khan, and a few Christian nobles; they never killed any Caliphs. Most of those were also at the behest and with the aid of political rivals of those they killed. Funny, this book I read spoke about two Caliphs.
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Jun 17, 2013 20:37
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Red Country spoiler That's what Logen looks like in my brain. Dumb sexed up version of Shy though.
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Jun 17, 2013 21:26
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Evfedu posted:Red Country spoiler People talk about Logen being a really big guy, but I always understood that to mean that he is tall and very heavily muscled. That drawing on the other hand makes him look like a giant the size of Fenris, which I dont think is right at all.
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Jun 17, 2013 21:43
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He's been a little Space Marine'd there, but I though Shy was meant to be five foot nothing, while Logen is an easy 6'6".
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Jun 17, 2013 21:52
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For some reason in my head I always imagined Ninefingers to look like Daddy Nier, same voice and everything, except in a lot less fetish gear. I pictured Shivers looking more like comic Ninefingers.
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Jun 17, 2013 21:54
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Evfedu posted:He's been a little Space Marine'd there, but I though Shy was meant to be five foot nothing, while Logen is an easy 6'6". Really? I always pictured Shy to be of average height.
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Jun 17, 2013 22:41
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It makes sense that there's over a foot of height difference between Logan and Shy. The picture looks like it's closer to one and a half feet than one foot so Logan's probably pretty tall and Shy's pretty short.
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Jun 17, 2013 23:10
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