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SpiderHyphenMan posted:Hi, poopsocker here. Loved the show, but... Well, that's the point. Walt himself says he was going it for himself at the end. In-show, though, the only people who learn the deal about turning down the payment and not having insurance are Gretchen and Skyler, the latter of whom called him on his bullshit repeatedly after figuring it out. Jesse didn't know he had the offer from Gretchen and Elliot, and the other people who knew he's a criminal generally didn't care. Or are you asking how the viewers can think that? That case, hell if I know.
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Nov 6, 2013 19:01
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:I guess then my question is: do I have a stick up my rear end, or is everyone who thought Walt was a good man after episode four either terrible at story comprehension or at morality? e: From my ropey memory Walt gets several opportunities to leave "the business" and never does, the point of the show is a good man deciding to do bad things for personal gain. Redundant fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Nov 6, 2013 |
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Nov 6, 2013 19:07
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Redundant posted:Morality isn't black or white though. If you're saying he was a bad guy as soon as he turned down the money, why not just say he's a bad guy the second he decides to cook crystal meth? Also, keep in mind that the show (at least early on) seems very focused on making the audience side with Walt. Roland Jones posted:Or are you asking how the viewers can think that? That case, hell if I know.
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Nov 6, 2013 19:14
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Did you not watch the final episode
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Nov 6, 2013 19:27
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:I guess then my question is: do I have a stick up my rear end, or is everyone who thought Walt was a good man after episode four either terrible at story comprehension or at morality? Its a lot easier to root for walt early on. He's portrayed fairly sympathetically and most of the people he's in direct contact with are most definitely bad people. And once you're invested in a character for a couple of seasons its a lot easier to forgive their indiscretions. And they get a little worse each episode but you rationalize it. And then at some point you realize this guy is a monster and you aren't sure why you ever liked him.
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Nov 6, 2013 19:34
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Great Beer posted:Its a lot easier to root for walt early on. He's portrayed fairly sympathetically and most of the people he's in direct contact with are most definitely bad people. And once you're invested in a character for a couple of seasons its a lot easier to forgive their indiscretions. And they get a little worse each episode but you rationalize it. And then at some point you realize this guy is a monster and you aren't sure why you ever liked him. Exactly. I've been rewatching Season 1 and they go out of their way to set up Walt as literally the most sympathetic man in the world. In the pilot episode alone, we've got: - Kid with CP, wife is pregnant with second kid - Sad sex life/boring marriage - rear end in a top hat brother-in-law who's a loving DEA hero and is popular. - High school teacher who was clearly destined for better things, evidenced by the Nobel Prize research plaque. - Has to work a degrading second job at a car wash where he gets mocked by his students. - And finally, cherry on top, inoperable terminal lung cancer. For a non-smoker. That much sympathy allows you to create excuses for Walt's choices, and right up until he rejects the Schwartzes offer, I was 100% on Team Walt. I'll never understand pride on that level, where you refuse help from people who care about you, and right around then is when I started to realize Walt was doing it because he wanted to do it. The scene in the pilot when he sees Jesse escape from the topless neighbor's window is what sells it. Walt sees that and is like "That's everything I want." Excitement, pulling one over on the DEA, sex with beautiful women, loving Pinkman's living the dream! You can tell right then that he wants to do this, wants it more than anything else he's ever wanted. It's confirmed/bookended by the scene after he blows up Tuco's place when he's celebrating in the car. That moment is the happiest Walt has ever felt in his entire life, and the rest of the series is a result of him chasing that feeling.
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Nov 6, 2013 19:49
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beep by grandpa posted:Did you not watch the final episode What I do think the show should have addressed is wow, why is this genius chemist a loving high school teacher? Surely he should be teaching at a university or working in a lab. I get why the situation is the way it is for the purposes of the show. You need Walt to be a genius chemist so he can make the bestest meth ever, but you also need him to have a lovely low-paying job. If you wanna say he completely shut down after the Gray Matter incident (which I don't need to know the details of) that would be one thing, but we know he worked at a place called Sandia Labs when he first moved to Albuquerque that (Season 3 finale flashback). So did Walt just constantly burn bridges to the point where he could only get a job teaching high school, or is he so hosed in the head that he finds giving Fs to kids who don't give a poo poo more rewarding than working with equals? SpiderHyphenMan fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Nov 6, 2013 |
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Nov 6, 2013 20:13
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:The part that I referred to as sperging out wasn't Walt's arc. I get that, I just don't get how so many people stayed on his side for so long. SpiderHyphenMan posted:What I do think the show should have addressed is wow, why is this genius chemist a loving high school teacher? Surely his credentials are good enough to get lab work somewhere.
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Nov 6, 2013 20:23
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Redundant posted:Like Great Beer said, character investment meant that I was willing to overlook certain things as "necessary". Plus, he's really good at what he does and it's sometimes fun to root for the bad guy. I understand people not liking Walt but it's not totally out of left field that people like him right to the very end. There were certain things that would have turned me against Walt but I wanted him to succeed basically from beginning to end. And yeah, rooting for the bad guy is fun when it comes to poo poo like "how is he going to get out of this one?" like when Walt made a loving laser to get free of the radiator. That poo poo is magic and fun to watch. What I don't get is how you can see Walt choose Meth Adventures over swallowing his pride and accepting charity from people who have nothing but respect for him and think "This man puts family first." quote:There are a lot of possible reasons for Walt to have ended up where he is, the show doesn't bother with them though because Walt ending up in a situation that is perfect for him to break bad isn't the point of the show, him deciding to do bad stuff is. It's not implausible for a very capable man to end up in a low paying, lovely job and spending time dwelling on it wouldn't have really added much to the show.
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Nov 6, 2013 20:37
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:So did Walt just constantly burn bridges to the point where he could only get a job teaching high school, or is he so hosed in the head that he finds giving Fs to kids who don't give a poo poo more rewarding than working with equals? SpiderHyphenMan posted:What I don't get is how you can see Walt choose Meth Adventures over swallowing his pride and accepting charity from people who have nothing but respect for him and think "This man puts family first." I think the answer is hubris. Ordinary hubris with normal consequences up until he started cooking, then gigantic hubris as long as he was a kingpin followed by extraordinary downfall, as exemplified in Ozymandias, both the poem and the episode. It was a classic human tragedy played out to its logical extreme, brilliantly. Plus, it was Brian Cranston in the lead role, who doesn't love that guy? edit: as for the audience thinking he put his family first, after the first couple of episodes I don't think anybody believed that, which is part of what made the show so interesting. We knew more about him than his own family did, so we watched to see what would happen if/when his family found out what he was really doing. Also, I don't think it was possible at first for the average viewer to separate Bryan Cranston, the actor, from Walter White/Heisendberg. His most well-known role prior to BB was a powerless but lovable goofball playing opposite a strong no-nonsense female. So when we first see Walter in his classroom, that's who I thought of. But almost immediately the show broke that illusion and from then on I watched in fascination as Bryan Cranston the actor played against type, revealing powerful talent and energy as he grew into the role and transformed his reputation as an actor. That was a huge reason for the magnetism of the series, seeing the hidden depths of all the actors, but especially Cranston. That's why I rooted for him all the way and didn't want it to end, the acting was just unexpectedly magnificent. Pheeets fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Nov 6, 2013 |
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Nov 6, 2013 22:07
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hiddenmovement posted:Killdozer I really, really want to see (preferably make) a Killdozer movie. That guy was awesome. And has a ton of story potential.
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Nov 6, 2013 22:38
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Hahaha oh my god, since I'm a new fan to the show this is probably old as gently caress and super common knowledge but I was just rewatching the "This is not meth" episode from Season 1 and I noticed at the tail end of the explosion the sound team mixed in the loving Dean Scream  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O47UY80VKfo @ 2:33
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Nov 6, 2013 23:17
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:I guess then my question is: do I have a stick up my rear end, or is everyone who thought Walt was a good man after episode four either terrible at story comprehension or at morality? There lies the conflation that BB threads have trodden through a million times -- there wouldn't be a show if Walt hadn't been so prideful (and it's entertaining as hell to watch). It does, however, get weird when people parrot Walt's rationalizations as the reason why what he did was okay. passionate dongs fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Nov 7, 2013 |
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Nov 7, 2013 02:26
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I think Walt actually did get more out of a kick giving Fs to high school students then working in a lab. Remember he can't work with Gale in season 3 because Gale is an equal (or close to) and Walt NEEDS to feel intellectually superior. So out Gale, in Jessie. Every time he worked in a lab or similar environment before that (like Grey Matter) it was out Walt in __.
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Nov 7, 2013 03:08
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WampaLord posted:That much sympathy allows you to create excuses for Walt's choices, and right up until he rejects the Schwartzes offer, I was 100% on Team Walt. I'll never understand pride on that level, where you refuse help from people who care about you, and right around then is when I started to realize Walt was doing it because he wanted to do it. Did they ever come out and actually say there was a love triangle between Walt and the Schwartzes, with Gretchen leaving Walt for Elliott? That was how I read it on rewatching anyway, Walt never got over failing where Elliott succeeded and by the time they offer to help him he's spent decades seething with anger and jealousy and feelings of betrayal. It also explains why he never tried to get involved with Gray Matter again after they went big.
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Nov 7, 2013 03:14
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hiddenmovement posted:I think Walt actually did get more out of a kick giving Fs to high school students then working in a lab. Remember he can't work with Gale in season 3 because Gale is an equal (or close to) and Walt NEEDS to feel intellectually superior. So out Gale, in Jessie. Every time he worked in a lab or similar environment before that (like Grey Matter) it was out Walt in __. Eh, he replaced Gale with Jesse because he needed to bribe Jesse into not pressing charges against Hank. I don't think it necessarily went deeper than that. He didn't seem to have any problem with Gale before he needed to make that deal. Lycus fucked around with this message at 03:18 on Nov 7, 2013 |
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Nov 7, 2013 03:14
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hiddenmovement posted:I think Walt actually did get more out of a kick giving Fs to high school students then working in a lab. Remember he can't work with Gale in season 3 because Gale is an equal (or close to) and Walt NEEDS to feel intellectually superior. So out Gale, in Jessie. Every time he worked in a lab or similar environment before that (like Grey Matter) it was out Walt in __. quote:Did they ever come out and actually say there was a love triangle between Walt and the Schwartzes, with Gretchen leaving Walt for Elliott?
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Nov 7, 2013 03:15
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God I fucking love Diablo 3 gold, it even paid for this shitty title
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Crashbee posted:Did they ever come out and actually say there was a love triangle between Walt and the Schwartzes, with Gretchen leaving Walt for Elliott? That was how I read it on rewatching anyway, Walt never got over failing where Elliott succeeded and by the time they offer to help him he's spent decades seething with anger and jealousy and feelings of betrayal. It also explains why he never tried to get involved with Gray Matter again after they went big. It's an interesting question, but I think he would have refused charity from anyone, regardless of past romantic involvement. His loving pride was his downfall.
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Nov 7, 2013 03:20
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If he accepts their charity he is not a man, simple as that. I understand why a lot of you would have trouble understanding this concept considering this website is mostly comprised of children pretending to be men, but try to think of it from a different perspective please. He was beaten down by life for decades and didn't fight back once the entire time, then he is supposed to just accept his pat on the head and lay down quietly and die? That's not what a man does, it's what some pet little bitch does. It's loving pathetic on every level and he had an entire lifetime's worth of rage to spend doing this right so why would he accept some charity from those stuck up assholes who are partly responsible for his lot in life to begin with? That is insult to injury, the poo poo cherry on top of the poo poo sundae. Oh but he should have been safe and boring instead then we could've had a great show about a pathetic guy dying a pathetic death, that's much more sensible.
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Nov 7, 2013 03:27
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Mr. Unlucky posted:If he accepts their charity he is not a man, simple as that. I understand why a lot of you would have trouble understanding this concept considering this website is mostly comprised of children pretending to be men Are you literally 14? Like Gus said, a man provides. Walt could have taken that cushy Grey Matter job and provided for his family, but instead he wanted to be an arrogant little dickhead and destroyed their lives instead so he could feel powerful.
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Nov 7, 2013 03:33
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Mr. Unlucky posted:If he accepts their charity he is not a man, simple as that. I understand why a lot of you would have trouble understanding this concept considering this website is mostly comprised of children pretending to be men, but try to think of it from a different perspective please. Maybe that's true in his world (and yours apparently). How's it feel being on the same level emotionally as the guy who killed 10+ people in the process of furthering his meth empire. He literally could not take a job at the company he helped found that would utilize his skills, instead he chose to pedal addictive drugs and commit numerous violent crimes. If that's your definition of being a man then I feel sorry for the people in your life. Most people would think sucking up your pride and accepting the job (even for a short time) would be the right thing for a man to do. Pride vs Wellfare of family. Which is more important?
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Nov 7, 2013 03:43
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Sorry that was so ridiculous I couldn't help but laugh. What he should have done morally and what he should have done because it makes good TV are two separate things.
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Nov 7, 2013 03:44
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Mr. Unlucky posted:If he accepts their charity he is not a man, simple as that. I understand why a lot of you would have trouble understanding this concept considering this website is mostly comprised of children pretending to be men, but try to think of it from a different perspective please. He was beaten down by life for decades and didn't fight back once the entire time, then he is supposed to just accept his pat on the head and lay down quietly and die? That's not what a man does, it's what some pet little bitch does. It's loving pathetic on every level and he had an entire lifetime's worth of rage to spend doing this right so why would he accept some charity from those stuck up assholes who are partly responsible for his lot in life to begin with? That is insult to injury, the poo poo cherry on top of the poo poo sundae. Oh but he should have been safe and boring instead then we could've had a great show about a pathetic guy dying a pathetic death, that's much more sensible.
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Nov 7, 2013 04:19
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WampaLord posted:It's an interesting question, but I think he would have refused charity from anyone, regardless of past romantic involvement. His loving pride was his downfall. Mr. Unlucky posted:If he accepts their charity he is not a man, simple as that. I understand why a lot of you would have trouble understanding this concept considering this website is mostly comprised of children pretending to be men, but try to think of it from a different perspective please. He was beaten down by life for decades and didn't fight back once the entire time, then he is supposed to just accept his pat on the head and lay down quietly and die? That's not what a man does, it's what some pet little bitch does. It's loving pathetic on every level and he had an entire lifetime's worth of rage to spend doing this right so why would he accept some charity from those stuck up assholes who are partly responsible for his lot in life to begin with? That is insult to injury, the poo poo cherry on top of the poo poo sundae.
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Nov 7, 2013 04:20
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beep by grandpa posted:Hahaha oh my god, since I'm a new fan to the show this is probably old as gently caress and super common knowledge but I was just rewatching the "This is not meth" episode from Season 1 and I noticed at the tail end of the explosion the sound team mixed in the loving Dean Scream Haha holy poo poo. I hope that becomes the new Wilhelm Scream.
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Nov 7, 2013 04:20
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Taking the Grey Matter job would be charity. Walt hasn't been in research for years; he'd be useless in the lab. He says all that stuff to Elliot out right, and Elliot didn't deny it.
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Nov 7, 2013 04:23
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dongsbot 9000 posted:Taking the Grey Matter job would be charity. Walt hasn't been in research for years; he'd be useless in the lab. He says all that stuff to Elliot out right, and Elliot didn't deny it.
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Nov 7, 2013 04:30
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dongsbot 9000 posted:Taking the Grey Matter job would be charity. Walt hasn't been in research for years; he'd be useless in the lab. He says all that stuff to Elliot out right, and Elliot didn't deny it.
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Nov 7, 2013 04:45
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Mr. Unlucky posted:If he accepts their charity he is not a man, simple as that. I understand why a lot of you would have trouble understanding this concept considering this website is mostly comprised of children pretending to be men, but try to think of it from a different perspective please. He was beaten down by life for decades and didn't fight back once the entire time, then he is supposed to just accept his pat on the head and lay down quietly and die? That's not what a man does, it's what some pet little bitch does. It's loving pathetic on every level and he had an entire lifetime's worth of rage to spend doing this right so why would he accept some charity from those stuck up assholes who are partly responsible for his lot in life to begin with? That is insult to injury, the poo poo cherry on top of the poo poo sundae. Oh but he should have been safe and boring instead then we could've had a great show about a pathetic guy dying a pathetic death, that's much more sensible. Look everyone, Tuco has come back from the grave to post with us!
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Nov 7, 2013 07:12
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The Tao Jones posted:Look everyone, Tuco has come back from the grave to post with us! Or possibly Gus, with entirely understandable brain damage.
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Nov 7, 2013 07:36
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BreakAtmo posted:Or possibly Gus, with entirely understandable brain damage. What does a man do? He does not act like a pet little bitch, nor does he eat the poo poo cherry atop the poo poo sundae. I hope I have adequately voiced my concerns to you, now eat poo poo.
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Nov 7, 2013 08:18
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I think one factor in walt not taking the grey matter job is the fact that at that point in the show he'd already killed krazy 8. I can see an element of the sunk cost mentality in effect there - once you've already made a commitment to something its harder to back down. The guys already become a murderer, so gently caress it.
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Nov 7, 2013 09:48
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:I somehow doubt that the man who invented the meth equivalent of Classic Coke couldn't be useful in a research laboratory. Timeless Appeal posted:To be fair, for Walt's meth to work the way it does on the show, he would have to essentially be making one of the biggest discoveries in pharmaceuticals. He's not just a talented chemist, he's Reed Richards. Being able to perform rudimentary lab operations that bikers have been doing since the 60s does not make you cut out for a position in research.
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Nov 7, 2013 14:16
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Redundant posted:Walt makes really, really pure meth that the writers happened to make blue to differentiate it from the rest so a trail is easy to find. His meth isn't magic, it is literally called "biker meth" multiple times because it's the same poo poo bikers used to cook just done really well because the guy takes his lab work seriously and understands the science.
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Nov 7, 2013 14:45
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:Consider that Gale, who had an MS in Organic Chemistry with a specialty in X-Ray Crystallography, was only able to get to 96% purity, while Walt got a 99.1% pure product, a difference Gale described as astronomical. There's more to Walt's formula than clean lab equipment and tried and true methods. Exactly, plus Gale said he couldn't yet account for the blue color. Walt wasn't just cooking biker meth really well, he had mastered it on the first try. I'm sure he could catch up on research pretty quickly.
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Nov 7, 2013 14:49
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By magic, people aren't referring to Walt's process, they're referring to how it gives meth-heads super-highs and makes them go wild for it. That part's not a real thing.
Lycus fucked around with this message at 15:00 on Nov 7, 2013 |
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Nov 7, 2013 14:50
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:Consider that Gale, who had an MS in Organic Chemistry with a specialty in X-Ray Crystallography, was only able to get to 96% purity, while Walt got a 99.1% pure product, a difference Gale described as astronomical. There's more to Walt's formula than clean lab equipment and tried and true methods. e: I'm not saying he shouldn't have taken the job, just that it was clearly charity since he'd be dead weight, but dead weight that Gray Matter could easily carry. Redundant fucked around with this message at 15:08 on Nov 7, 2013 |
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Nov 7, 2013 15:00
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Lycus posted:By "magic", he wasn't referring to the Walt's process, he's referring to how it gives meth-heads super-highs and makes them go wild for it. That part's not a real thing.
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Nov 7, 2013 15:00
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Redundant posted:It's not like Walt has some magic process or secret ingredient, if he did Gale would have spotted it quickly and never needed Walt again. Think of it like race car driving; I could get a car around the track, Gale can get it around much faster than me and Walt could get it around just a bit quicker than Gale. That doesn't mean that any of us are ready to fly a jet. Making meth and doing research science (probably using tools and methods that Walt has never used before) are very different things.
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Nov 7, 2013 15:07
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Lycus posted:Well, accept it or not, that's the concept that's vital to the show. Walt is uniquely good at making super-meth, and there's no real world science to explain how he does it. It's based on in-universe magi-science.
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Nov 7, 2013 15:11
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