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The Breaking Bad wiki, is a fun read. It's hard to separate what's intended and what's "looking too closely", but still neat.wikia on Felina posted:The apparel Walt wears when he arrives at the compound is identical to what he wore in "Pilot" (pastel jacket, green button-up shirt, white undershirt, beige slacks). He begins and ends the series in the same clothes.
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Nov 10, 2013 07:27
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jarjarbinksfan621 posted:He couldn't just work for Gus. He felt his family would always be at risk as long as Gus was around. What exactly is a monstrous thing that Walt did? You can't use poisoning the kid, because it can be reasonably attributed as being (perceived) necessary to protect his family. Yeah, you can, because it's poisoning a freaking kid. But alright. Let's see. Killing Jane, choosing to work for Gus in the first place when he already had enough money, choosing to keep working for Gus after he had an out partway through, choosing to keep making meth after he got out by killing Gus, repeatedly dragging Jesse into his schemes when Jesse was out (and wanted to stay out because he's been traumatized repeatedly by everything he's seen and done), killing Mike (which he himself said was unnecessary), tormenting Skyler even after it was clear she couldn't stop him, trying to rape Skyler back in season two... There are so many horrible things Walter does, it's really easier to list the things he did that weren't terrible or selfish. I mean, this is a man who took his newborn daughter and showed off his drug money to her. Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 07:33 on Nov 10, 2013 |
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Nov 10, 2013 07:30
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CPFortest posted:There's nothing necessarily monstrous about defending himself from Gus true, but the whole situation resulted from Walt being an absolute moron on basic workplace relations in the drug world. To me, monstrous means he had evil motives, his motives were relatively pure based on the threats levied. Desperate times, desperate measures.
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Nov 10, 2013 07:37
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You're believing Walt's logic, which nobody in the series believes by the end of it. It's all warped self-justification. He's not a principled criminal, like Mike. Look how Mike paid off his people. Walt didn't want to bother, so he just killed them. Almost everything he did was self-centered. He let Jesse's girlfriend die. He manipulated him into dumping Andrea. He threatened Skylar. If Walt kicked a puppy, some people would say the puppy deserved it for threatening his meth business. jarjarbinksfan621 posted:On the bomb, I was referring to Hank knowing it was Heisenberg that did the bombing. One would assume that a meth kingpin has many enemies. A well-compensated employee is hardly a logical assumption. Hank doesn't know about the tension between Walt and Gus. Leaving aside your warped morals, Hank knew that Gus was distributing blue meth. He knew there was a notorious cook cooking for Gus. After Gus died, he knew the blue meth kept being sold. And then everyone who could help take down Gus died. So his murderer had to be a former employee. And Walt did that stupid 'Say my name' thing with the Neo-Nazis, so he wasn't exactly careful. Count Chocula fucked around with this message at 08:57 on Nov 10, 2013 |
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Nov 10, 2013 08:41
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Count Chocula posted:You're believing Walt's logic, which nobody in the series believes by the end of it. It's all warped self-justification. He's not a principled criminal, like Mike. Look how Mike paid off his people. Walt didn't want to bother, so he just killed them. Almost everything he did was self-centered. He let Jesse's girlfriend die. He manipulated him into dumping Andrea. He threatened Skylar. The lawyer got caught making it harder to pay them off it isn't as black/white as 'not bothering'
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Nov 10, 2013 08:47
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CaptainHollywood posted:The Breaking Bad wiki, is a fun read. It's hard to separate what's intended and what's "looking too closely", but still neat. I would say nearly all of them are.
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Nov 10, 2013 16:52
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Skylar could spend the whole series feeding the homeless in a soup kitchen and she still wouldn't be likeable. It goes beyond her words and motives. It's her vibe. I'm guessing the skylar character in Metastasis is more likeable even if she is written the same.
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Nov 10, 2013 17:48
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Gio posted:I would say nearly all of them are. I think a lot of the imagery and call-backs are more-or-less accurate readings, the stuff that's just people over-thinking tends to be all the political crap that people read into it. The staff explicitly stated that the show wasn't about politics or social issues and did their best to keep the show focused on character not preaching, but people will still dump their own political views on it and say that Breaking Bad was all about white privilege or how Mexicans are literal demons, or LGBT rights or something.
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Nov 10, 2013 17:54
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CarlosTheDwarf posted:Skylar could spend the whole series feeding the homeless in a soup kitchen and she still wouldn't be likeable. It goes beyond her words and motives. It's her vibe. I'm guessing the skylar character in Metastasis is more likeable even if she is written the same.
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Nov 10, 2013 18:13
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:What in the gently caress are you talking about???? He is saying that Skylar gives off a vibe that makes people hate her, rather than the hate being based of any of her actions or motivations. If you've never heard of it before, a vibe is much like an impression, it's often hard to put into words but is usually used when something is off-putting or creates an unpleasant atmosphere. EDIT: He also goes on to say that the version of the character in metastasis (the Mexican re-make of Breaking Bad) may very well be more well-liked by audiences, because the actress may not give off the same vibe as Skylar's american actress did. It's really a pretty simple post.
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Nov 10, 2013 19:16
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PootieTang posted:He is saying that Skylar gives off a vibe that makes people hate her, rather than the hate being based of any of her actions or motivations.
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Nov 10, 2013 19:23
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:I can't tell if you're being facetious, but what I mean is "What the gently caress kind of 'vibe' does Skyler give off that makes people hate her?" Ask a dumb question get a dumb answer. If there was a more specific explanation then it wouldn't just be described as a 'bad vibe' would it? I can see where he's coming from. Something about Skylars character makes otherwise sensible people hate her, even in moments where it isn't entirely deserved. You can't deny that. And I find the 'people hate Skylar because they hate women' explanation to be very lacking, since I know personally a lot of women who hate Skylar just as much if not more than men do. That and the fact that the other female characters in BB don't inspire nearly as much absolute vitriol, even villains like Lydia. And before you say it, no, the women who hate her aren't self-hating anti-feminists.
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Nov 10, 2013 19:28
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I think people mostly just hate Skyler because early in the series she is an antagonist, dramatically speaking. She is basically a good person but since she opposes Walt, the protagonist, by doing things like threatening divorce and taking the kids away.
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Nov 10, 2013 19:31
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I don't like her "default" facial expression and early on she's mostly there to give a sassmouth or be dismissive to other characters. People don't give hate based on the enormity of a characters actions as much as how annoying they act. They're more interested in watching someone do horrible things in an intelligent way than watch someone not do anything too bad and just be annoying.
brap fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Nov 10, 2013 |
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Nov 10, 2013 19:39
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Metropolis posted:I think people mostly just hate Skyler because early in the series she is an antagonist, dramatically speaking. She is basically a good person but since she opposes Walt, the protagonist, by doing things like threatening divorce and taking the kids away. I can kind of see where you're coming from, but Skylar was never really a direct antagonist to Walt. She would oppose him sure, but I never really considered her an 'antagonist' just a supporting character. And hell, antagonists don't automatically inspire such intense hatred as Skylar does. Look at Gus, the cousins, Lydia, even Todd doesn't get as much hate as Skylar. Maybe it's because her actions against Walt seem more petty than the ones Gus takes, they lack all the drama or excitement of the other conflicts. That and the scene where Skylar smokes while pregnant out of spite (either for Walt, or the woman who gave her a dirty look when she took out the cigarettes) because out of all of her actions I honestly think that might be the most hard to sympathize with. Personally, I'm leaning towards vibe theory (and not because it sounds like an awesome disco album) but I think I've mentioned before how Skylar's natural face seems to be a constant scowl. Something about that expression she pulls reminds of the face a rich person would pull when a smelly homeless person asks them for change, just some weird mix of disgust and offense that seems really cruel and unfeeling. Like she isn't really upset because of what's happening in front of her, but because she's just filled with hate. I'm going on a weird mad rant now so feel free to disregard that last paragraph, but all the stuff before that I stand by.
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Nov 10, 2013 19:39
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I just feel like that's a whole lotta words for saying "Skyler's a bitch."
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Nov 10, 2013 21:39
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I guess I never felt "The Vibe".
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Nov 10, 2013 21:49
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Thanks to this thread I now have an R. Kelly song stuck in my head, I hope you're all happy  I never had any major issue with Skyler, she's annoyed me plenty of times during the course of the show (and she was in the right on some of those occasions) but I'm pretty sure every character has at some point.
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Nov 10, 2013 22:22
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Last Chance posted:I just feel like that's a whole lotta words for saying "Skyler's a bitch." She's got chronic bitchface. She just looks like she's constantly brooding about something and right on the cusp of opening her mouth to complain about it. I like the character and I think Anna Gunn did a great job of portraying her, but I can see why some people find her inherently unlikable.
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Nov 11, 2013 00:31
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PootieTang posted:I can kind of see where you're coming from, but Skylar was never really a direct antagonist to Walt. She would oppose him sure, but I never really considered her an 'antagonist' just a supporting character. And hell, antagonists don't automatically inspire such intense hatred as Skylar does. Look at Gus, the cousins, Lydia, even Todd doesn't get as much hate as Skylar. Maybe it's because her actions against Walt seem more petty than the ones Gus takes, they lack all the drama or excitement of the other conflicts.
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Nov 11, 2013 00:32
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In the first season, pretty much everyone but Walt was unlikable. Hank was a parody of Vic from The Shield as a jerk DEA agent, Skylar was annoying when she drove to Jesse's house, Marie was a snob and even Jesse was kinda irritating. But as the series went on they grew and changed. I can't understand any of the hatred for Skylar. She was essentially being held hostage in an emotionally abusive relationship, and I cheered when she started to call Walt on his bullshit and get the kids out of the house. The 'vibe' theory honestly does look like mysogony. This link sums it up: http://jezebel.com/goodbye-and-good-riddance-angry-little-men-who-hate-sk-1428212877 Count Chocula fucked around with this message at 01:33 on Nov 11, 2013 |
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Nov 11, 2013 00:44
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I don't think "bitchface" is a real thing, so just saying someone has "bitchface" doesn't explain anything to me.
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Nov 11, 2013 01:08
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Lycus posted:I don't think "bitchface" is a real thing, so just saying someone has "bitchface" doesn't explain anything to me. You ever heard the phrase "punchable face" in reference to a guy? Same thing, really. They just have facial expressions that imply they'd be extremely unpleasant to be around. She wears a constant expression of disgust and irritation. I realize this isn't a terribly precise description, but most people just inherently understand body language so I've never really had to explain it before. Frank Horrigan fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Nov 11, 2013 |
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Nov 11, 2013 01:11
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Maybe Skyler needed an episode where she just told her story. They could have called it 'Memoirs of a Cigerette Smoking Mom.'
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Nov 11, 2013 02:24
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Terms like "vibe" and "body language" exist precisely because the phenomena they describe, while they are a critical component of normal social interactions, they are function of non-verbal communication and are therefore difficult to express using purely verbal communication. It isn't that hard. As someone who is 100% a member of the "I hate Skyler" team, let's look at our first impressions of Sklyer. The Birthday handjob makes a lot of hay in these kinds of conversations, and that is an important scene but it goes deeper than that. Through Marie we learn that Skyler is a frustrated author -- already that is pretty off-putting. I've known my fair share of "misunderstood geniuses forced to toil away from their True Calling" and they are either con-men or really sad sacks. Sklyer is firmly in the latter category, with Marie basically bullying her. So what does she do? She bullies Walt in turn. But it goes beyond that, because she'll use her writing as a cover for really lovely gossip about her husband (and presumably other people in her life). This is not only a horrible cover, but if you've known people who pull that kinda poo poo, it also strongly suggests that her works are transparently autobiographical. Already you could say I am reading too much into this (maybe I am) but the people who write for Breaking Bad are professional writers (duh!) so they have not only dealt with these people professionally but, more damning, they have dealt with being compared to these people. That kinda poo poo isn't an accident -- Breaking Bad was written by writers, so those writers making a character a terrible sort of hack writer tells you what they think of them and, moreover, helps inform everything else going on letting you, the viewer, know how to perceive the events. Coupled with that is the fact that Skyler doesn't work. You could blame that on Walt's pride but that assumes future knowledge. The Walt we see initially is a man who has clearly been shat on professionally and continues to be shitted upon by his wife, his students, his boss at his second job, his brother-in-law . . . pretty much loving everybody. So he's enduring those various hells while she is . . . a struggling author who occasionally sells poo poo on ebay? That is her contribution to the household? A household that is clearly struggling financially? Walt works his rear end off at not one but two jobs that are beneath him while she farts around? Speaking of not working, we find out that the reason why she is no longer working is because at her last job she at the very least had an inappropriate relationship with her boss if not had an outright affair with him. She then repeats this, rather explicitly, as a means to hurt Walt. That's good start as to why hating her makes sense. Those things also dovetail with things like Anna Gunn giving off a "bad vibe" (to tie back in to the initial response), for example Martha Bullock on Deadwood was not well-received. She didn't get the Skyler White level of hate but she was decidedly unpopular. Now, things develop on Breaking Bad that help partially explain Skyler's behavior. Doesn't mean I have to like her. Especially since she was framed as being in reaction to Walt. That makes sense dramatically but given a really negative initial impression there has to be something more to overcome that. Skyler becoming Walt's prisoner/slave overcame that hurdle for me and my distaste turned to a sort of base, ugly pity. That feeling continued throughout the rest of the run.
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Nov 11, 2013 02:41
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Skylar didn't work partly because she was raising a son with cerebral palsey. That's a full time job.
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Nov 11, 2013 02:45
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She had been working with a son who had CP before. While he was younger and therefore much more dependent on her. That excuse doesn't really hold water. Her being a stay-at-home mom seems to be a recent phenomenon by all indications.
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Nov 11, 2013 02:51
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I kind of like the idea that season 1 is an unreliable narrative where the characters are being presented how Walt views them more than they actually are.
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Nov 11, 2013 02:51
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Shbobdb posted:So he's enduring those various hells while she is . . . a struggling author who occasionally sells poo poo on ebay? That is her contribution to the household? A household that is clearly struggling financially? Walt works his rear end off at not one but two jobs that are beneath him while she farts around? Speaking of not working, we find out that the reason why she is no longer working is because at her last job she at the very least had an inappropriate relationship with her boss if not had an outright affair with him. She then repeats this, rather explicitly, as a means to hurt Walt. She "defies" him and gets a job at Bennecke to help pay the bills, but it's not hard to imagine Walt getting pissy about his wife needing to get a job.
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Nov 11, 2013 03:15
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Shbobdb posted:So he's enduring those various hells while she is . . . a struggling author who occasionally sells poo poo on ebay? That is her contribution to the household? A household that is clearly struggling financially? Walt works his rear end off at not one but two jobs that are beneath him while she farts around?
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Nov 11, 2013 03:19
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Timeless Appeal posted:I kind of like the idea that season 1 is an unreliable narrative where the characters are being presented how Walt views them more than they actually are. This is something I very much agree with. Last Chance and SpiderHyphenMan posted:I am unable to synthesize information in a meaningful manner. Couldn't have said it better myself!
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Nov 11, 2013 03:29
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Timeless Appeal posted:I kind of like the idea that season 1 is an unreliable narrative where the characters are being presented how Walt views them more than they actually are. This is true enough. I think almost every scene featured a scene from Walt or Jesse's perspective. Can someone tell me off-hand which is the first scene to feature neither character?
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Nov 11, 2013 03:49
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I'm not a TV woman hater, she just gives me a "bitchy vibe". Hilarious. Skyler owns and I can usually tell who is a good person to talk to about this show with with how they talk about Skyler. The Skyler haters seem to dovetail nicely with most of the people who don't really get this show and think Walt is a totally badass dude doing badass things totally justified.
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Nov 11, 2013 04:04
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Shbobdb posted:As someone who is 100% a member of the "I hate Skyler" team, let's look at our first impressions of Sklyer. The Birthday handjob makes a lot of hay in these kinds of conversations, and that is an important scene but it goes deeper than that. Through Marie we learn that Skyler is a frustrated author -- already that is pretty off-putting. I've known my fair share of "misunderstood geniuses forced to toil away from their True Calling" and they are either con-men or really sad sacks. Sklyer is firmly in the latter category, with Marie basically bullying her. So what does she do? She bullies Walt in turn. But it goes beyond that, because she'll use her writing as a cover for really lovely gossip about her husband (and presumably other people in her life). This is not only a horrible cover, but if you've known people who pull that kinda poo poo, it also strongly suggests that her works are transparently autobiographical. Already you could say I am reading too much into this (maybe I am) but the people who write for Breaking Bad are professional writers (duh!) so they have not only dealt with these people professionally but, more damning, they have dealt with being compared to these people. That kinda poo poo isn't an accident -- Breaking Bad was written by writers, so those writers making a character a terrible sort of hack writer tells you what they think of them and, moreover, helps inform everything else going on letting you, the viewer, know how to perceive the events. This post is "transparently autobiographical" in that it has little to do with the story and every bit to do with a projection of your prejudices. There is nothing in the show indicating that Skyler is a "hack" nor does she say much about her writing at all without a prompt from someone else (Marie, Walt). At no point does Skyler have any pretensions about her writing, and in fact, it is totally possible to be an amateur something without being a "hack" passionate dongs fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Nov 11, 2013 |
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Nov 11, 2013 04:13
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Do we think the writers of the show think that? I'm gonna suggest that when writers present a character as a writer, how that character as a writer is presented says a great deal about them. Even if we wanted to indulge in absolute "death of the author"* someone using their "writing" as an excuse to gossip is some loving middle-school poo poo and not something an emotionally realized adult does. Also, way to go straight for the ad hom. You didn't attack the substance of my argument but instead when straight to character assassination. *Which is a really bad way to go about examining why a particular character is so deeply disliked since "they were written to be unlikable" or, in theater, "they were presented so as to be unlikeable" are pretty valid reasons as to why people respond negatively to them.
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Nov 11, 2013 04:34
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Shbobdb posted:Do we think the writers of the show think that? Well we know that the writers and cast and crew of the show think that Skylar hate is stupid, so,
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Nov 11, 2013 04:37
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Shbobdb posted:Do we think the writers of the show think that? I'm gonna suggest that when writers present a character as a writer, how that character as a writer is presented says a great deal about them. Even if we wanted to indulge in absolute "death of the author"* someone using their "writing" as an excuse to gossip is some loving middle-school poo poo and not something an emotionally realized adult does. And it's a pretty far reach to think "this show was written by writers, therefore the mere mention of a writer must be a characterization of someone that they hate" when she actually doesn't do anything that would be the characterization of a "hack" writer that you're making up.
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Nov 11, 2013 04:40
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Shbobdb posted:Also, way to go straight for the ad hom. You didn't attack the substance of my argument but instead when straight to character assassination. You pretty much said yourself you don't view a stay at home mom as an equal contributor in a marriage. When the substance of your argument contains that what else do you expect?
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Nov 11, 2013 04:41
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Shbobdb posted:Do we think the writers of the show think that? I'm gonna suggest that when writers present a character as a writer, how that character as a writer is presented says a great deal about them. Even if we wanted to indulge in absolute "death of the author"* someone using their "writing" as an excuse to gossip is some loving middle-school poo poo and not something an emotionally realized adult does. As for Skyler being "written to be unlikeable", I point to Vince Gilligan himself, who says: quote:We’ve been at events and had all our actors up onstage, and people ask Anna Gunn, “Why is your character such a bitch?” And with the risk of painting with too broad a brush, I think the people who have these issues with the wives being too bitchy on Breaking Bad are misogynists, plain and simple. I like Skyler a little less now that she’s succumbed to Walt’s machinations, but in the early days she was the voice of morality on the show. She was the one telling him, “You can’t cook crystal meth.” She’s got a tough job being married to this rear end in a top hat. And this, by the way, is why I should avoid the Internet at all costs. People are griping about Skyler White being too much of a killjoy to her meth-cooking, murdering husband? She’s telling him not to be a murderer and a guy who cooks drugs for kids. How could you have a problem with that?
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Nov 11, 2013 04:47
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I think we can all agree that Marie sucks.
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Nov 11, 2013 06:54
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