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Mordaedil posted:This is kinda why I just want no romances and at least have all companions have equal importance, so it doesn't get segregated into groups of "who I can gently caress" and "who I can't gently caress", which always disturbed me about RPG's in the last decade. Others have said it, but no this isn't how it works. Minsc & Boo are beloved because they were memorable and amusing in a game where most party members had no personality at all, let alone an interesting one. Then BG2 comes along and you have a much more rounded and developed cast and suddenly Minsc doesn't hog the limelight. Who'da thunk it? Minsc is not the most deep character ever written but there's nothing wrong with having a character like him. A lot of characters like him is a problem though.
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Jan 5, 2014 14:35
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Captain Oblivious posted:Others have said it, but no this isn't how it works. Minsc & Boo are beloved because they were memorable and amusing in a game where most party members had no personality at all, let alone an interesting one. Yeah a lot of characters like him would be terrible. A lot of characters with as much or more personality as him is needed. That said I'd still choose 10 Minscs over 10 bland cardboard characters.
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Jan 5, 2014 14:52
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A game specifically focused on wrangling an entire party of Minsc like characters could be hilarious though, Baldur's Gate crossed with Pikmin/Overlord.
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Jan 5, 2014 15:01
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coffeetable posted:In general, players respond negatively to time/vital resource limits (often due to anxiety) unless they find some way to stop or reset the clock. Majora’s Mask is one of the only games I can think of that manages to use a time limit in a way that creates tension but (generally) doesn’t annoy players. I think the key is that the player needs some sort of tool to manage those limits - and a good reason to not just find a way to trivialize them at the earliest opportunity. As someone that loved the Spirit Eater mechanic, but finds the Fallout timer tiresome, that's the key difference. That said, the Spirit Eater mechanic isn't perfect either because if you decide to play 'good' it becomes pretty trivial to just run with it on empty once you figure it out; and there's no real incentive for the player to flirt with danger. I honestly think the best example of a mechanic of that sort is the time limit/D Counter in Breath of Fire V: Dragon Quarter. There's significant upside to flirting with the timer, and 'screwing up' is almost rewarded by allowing you to double back to a recent checkpoint with new levels gained and the chance to unlock some stuff along the path you just 'cleared' by making a second pass. Thus, blowing up the timer while just 'grinding' is rewarded in that you get to use your awesome nuke powers that you'd otherwise feel compelled to save for the end of the game.
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Jan 5, 2014 15:14
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Superman could definitively solve famine though. Just punch a bunch of people who prefer to spend money on war, golden yachts and play on the stock market until their priorities change. That wouldn't be very  though.I get the point he's making, but it's a bad example.
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Jan 5, 2014 15:14
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I forget: we got guns and some kind of possibly magical gun powder, so do we get Ye Olde Skoole hand grenades?
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Jan 5, 2014 15:18
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Furism posted:Superman could definitively solve famine though. Just punch a bunch of people who prefer to spend money on war, golden yachts and play on the stock market until their priorities change. That wouldn't be very  I'm curious how point assignment will work and how many there are. We've got acrobatics as a skill check but what else does it do? I never like the third edition rules where you were always dumping points into stupid skills that were only ever checks.
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Jan 5, 2014 15:26
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MartianAgitator posted:I forget: we got guns and some kind of possibly magical gun powder, so do we get Ye Olde Skoole hand grenades? I would be thrilled if there are petards, so that we might see someone literally hoisted with their own petard.
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Jan 5, 2014 15:28
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Demiurge4 posted:
The original plan was that combat and non-combat skills would be drawn from separate pools, but I think since then they've transitioned to every skill having a combat use. Maybe acrobatics allows you to escape without a disengagement attack?
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Jan 5, 2014 15:44
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coffeetable posted:The original plan was that combat and non-combat skills would be drawn from separate pools, but I think since then they've transitioned to every skill having a combat use. Maybe acrobatics allows you to escape without a disengagement attack? I think you're confusing every attribute being valuable for combat with every skill being useful in combat. As far as I know, the idea is still to have combat and non-combat skills, each coming from a different pool so you're not having to choose between combat and non-combat utility (because the "correct" choice is always combat). Or have I missed an update? It does leave me wondering how many combat skills can there possibly be, though: stealth, detection, ???
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Jan 5, 2014 16:00
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What's the word on minigames? Silly as it was, one of the highlights of BG2 for me is the dungeoncrawl within a dungeoncrawl minigame that you found in that bigass megadungeon. I'll be a bit miffed if I have to play towers of hanoi again to get something, but a more complex game - even as simple as the blackjack from New Vegas - would be welcome. A long, pointless sidequest to get a reward as trivial as the title of best at dungeonball would be great.
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Jan 5, 2014 16:15
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Honestly I'm hoping there are no characters like Minsc. He was fine in BG1 where the 'personality' of NPCs was limited to brief sound bytes. In BG2 where they gave NPCs slightly larger speaking roles, in my mind it became apparent that a comedy character with only one joke was better suited to the shallower NPC system of the first game.
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Jan 5, 2014 17:23
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I think the people who critisize the Forgotten Realms and their high level npc's are missing the point of the setting. The reason you have Elminster, Drizzt and the like, are because there are a large amount of equally powerful bad guys, it is not just a setting where the bad guys are sitting around, and picking their nose, waiting for a group of players to come and solve everything. That was the problem with the 4th edition of FR, all of the super powerful bad guys, and none of the counterpoints. It is a world where there are ten groups who are all five seconds away from taking over/destroying the world, and there is no realistic way for the players to handle them all.[/rant]
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Jan 5, 2014 19:23
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I really hope that PE's setting ends up being more like The Witcher's and a lot less like The Forgotten Realms. The Witcher really impressed me with how real the world seemed, and almost entirely because it had actual coherent political units in the form of countries and cities supported by large scale agriculture.
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Jan 5, 2014 19:42
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verybad posted:I think you're confusing every attribute being valuable for combat with every skill being useful in combat. As far as I know, the idea is still to have combat and non-combat skills, each coming from a different pool so you're not having to choose between combat and non-combat utility (because the "correct" choice is always combat). Or have I missed an update? It does leave me wondering how many combat skills can there possibly be, though: stealth, detection, ??? That's the way it works, but each non-combat skill also has an auxiliary combat bonus. As an example, the mechanics skill is used for opening locks, finding and disabling traps, and determining the power of traps your characters set.
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Jan 5, 2014 20:04
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Chairchucker posted:Honestly I'm hoping there are no characters like Minsc. He was fine in BG1 where the 'personality' of NPCs was limited to brief sound bytes. In BG2 where they gave NPCs slightly larger speaking roles, in my mind it became apparent that a comedy character with only one joke was better suited to the shallower NPC system of the first game. I'm hoping for the exact opposite. Everyone likes different kinds of characters, and there's a lot of people who want a comedic companion just as much as you want a somber one. Fan favorites like Minsc, HK-47 or even Morte are favorites for a reason. Players like companions that are ridiculous in the case of Minsc, patronizing to the player (HK-47 paired with a Light sided player is amazing.), or just witty and charming. Mordaedil posted:A character like Minsc & Boo is also sort of poisonous to such a theme, because suddenly they take the center stage and then suddenly, who gives a gently caress about Skie, Yeslick, Quayle or Eldoth? I've played through BGI/II and I don't remember any of these characters outside of Minsc. As much as you think his character is poisonous, he's infinitely more memorable than those four put together. If Minsc, a completely tongue-in-cheek character, can take center stage, then how interesting are those characters to begin with? Don't conflate 'serious' with 'interesting'. A character with a serious problem doesn't automatically make me more interested in their plight, if they lack any memorable personality or if they have no interaction with the players story. Teaching Morte dirty comebacks by pissing off prostitutes was more interesting to me then anything Vhailor had to say, ever.
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Jan 5, 2014 21:06
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Not remembering BG1 NPCs doesn't mean anything because a number of them aren't on plot paths and have to be stumbled upon in the wilderness. I played through BG1 several times before I got BG2 and I had no idea who the hell this Viconia person was and why I supposed to recognise her - and she was one they chose to bring back as a major companion.
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Jan 5, 2014 21:10
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User0015 posted:I'm hoping for the exact opposite. The issue with Minsc is just that he's often the sixth PC for a lot of people. By the time you meet him you've picked up Imoen, Jaheira and Khalid and probably the red wizard guy as well. Now you have a full party and Minsc's rescue mission is a way for you to change out your evil red wizard for one that's both good and specializes in loving fireballs. That's the party I played with the rest of the game, I resisted picking up anyone else at all because losing one of my least interesting characters (Khalid or Jaheira) meant they both left at the same time and I just couldn't be bothered having to replace both.
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Jan 5, 2014 21:59
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Fish Fry Andy posted:I really hope that PE's setting ends up being more like The Witcher's and a lot less like The Forgotten Realms. The Witcher really impressed me with how real the world seemed, and almost entirely because it had actual coherent political units in the form of countries and cities supported by large scale agriculture. All that stuff was (mostly) 2e though, with some scattered in 3e between FEAT FEAT FEAT CLASS PRESTIGE CLASS FEAT FEAT.
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Jan 5, 2014 22:49
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Masonity posted:Isn't this more indicative of the weakness of Skie, Yeslick, Quayle and Eldoth? I'd rather have Minsc as is and see the rest of the companions pulled to that level of interesting rather then gut him so its not such an easy choice. Minsc was like a stamp of quality, I'd know if I had the guy and his pet in my party I would have an interesting time on my quests in some form of another, even if the general thing I was doing during them wasn't extremely fun. And having less, but more interesting and polished characters is really the way to go, even if they sort of steal the limelight with their shenanigans/antics.
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Jan 5, 2014 22:53
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The only time I felt cheated of limelight by an NPC was when (Fable 2 spoilers) Reaver interrupted the BBEG's final monologue and killed him, robbing me of that satisfaction. That being said, as long as that doesnt happen with PE (and I expect it to not, ropekid knows whats up), I like wacky NPC's that are exciting.
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Jan 5, 2014 23:35
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Upmarket Mango posted:The only time I felt cheated of limelight by an NPC was when (Fable 2 spoilers) Reaver interrupted the BBEG's final monologue and killed him, robbing me of that satisfaction. I don't know. Depending on the character that can work. But I've always felt that consistent character motivations are more important than giving the player absolute control. My favourite example is from Dragon Age, DA:O spoilers ahead. In the landsmeet at the end of the game, you face the main villain, Loghain, in a political battle, then, whatever the outcome you can duel him or nominate one of your party members to do it for you. If you fight him, you have the option of forcing him to join your 'team'. In the introduction he passively murders all of one of your party members friends, and if you make him join you, Alistair will leave leave permanently. If you make Alistair fight Loghain instead, he immediately beheads him unceremoniously, at the end combat, and you can't discuss anything with him at all. Sure, that's taking away player agency, but OF COURSE he would do that. It wouldn't have made sense for the character not to have done.
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Jan 5, 2014 23:45
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FRINGE posted:FR was like this. There were walls-full piles of books if you wanted to get into the FR political/leadership/trade stuff. (No one does this :p) No guesswork needed. What is the name of the leader of that cattail-gathering hamlet on the east side of that lake? Oh its Marvin, hes the Mayor of those 121 people and 4 dogs. They all like pie. I know that the leaders had names, but that always felt like the extent of it. I never felt like in what I've seen of the Baldur's Gate games that like civilization really existed other than inside of cities or a random town that somehow survives despite being surrounded by horrible monsters. On the other hand, the Witcher series basically constantly reminds you of and shows you the political happenings going on in the setting, even if they weren't critically important for the plot, and it made it all feel a whole lot more real.
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Jan 6, 2014 00:11
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Baldur's Gate weren't about the politics of the world it was about the adventures. The Witcher's entire background is that of political intrigue - wherever Geralt goes massive change happens. The FR setting, on the other hand, had a lot of political things in them if you got the source books but as Fringe said that stuff was pushed out of sight in favor of game mechanics.
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Jan 6, 2014 00:14
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Jimbot posted:Baldur's Gate weren't about the politics of the world it was about the adventures. The Witcher's entire background is that of political intrigue - wherever Geralt goes massive change happens. The FR setting, on the other hand, had a lot of political things in them if you got the source books but as Fringe said that stuff was pushed out of sight in favor of game mechanics. They don't have to be mutually exclusive is the thing. Your setting doesn't have to feel like a barrage of cardboard cut out set pieces to have an adventure.
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Jan 6, 2014 00:17
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That's a failing of the game not the setting, though.
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Jan 6, 2014 00:23
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Upmarket Mango posted:The only time I felt cheated of limelight by an NPC was when (Fable 2 spoilers) Reaver interrupted the BBEG's final monologue and killed him, robbing me of that satisfaction. Personally, when that happened to me I just laughed. It's a perfectly in character thing for Reaver to do, and by the time I got to that point, wasting a bullet on him just didn't seem worth it. Plus, you can interrupt and kill him before Reaver does if that's what you really want. All in all, I thought that was one of the better parts of that game that really could have used more good parts to it.
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Jan 6, 2014 00:33
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Fish Fry Andy posted:I know that the leaders had names, but that always felt like the extent of it.
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Jan 6, 2014 00:40
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Jimbot posted:That's a failing of the game not the setting, though. Is it? I never got the impression Faerun was much more than a bunch of fantasy archetypes smashed together into the rough shape of a setting.
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Jan 6, 2014 00:41
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Captain Oblivious posted:Is it? I never got the impression Faerun was much more than a bunch of fantasy archetypes smashed together into the rough shape of a setting. Yeah, it's generic as gently caress.
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Jan 6, 2014 00:42
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FR Adventures and the Volo's Guide to ______ books do a lot to flesh out the geopolitical landscape of the Realms, though a lot of it seems odd or unsustainable.
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Jan 6, 2014 00:43
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It is so full of things it is overwhelming. Dismissing FR because of a couple of games is like the blind men and the elephant. You could run a game based on the return of the God of Consciousness and his lost artifacts which are buried beneath the new kingdom of the psychic-snake-people and you would be well within the book-lore of FR.
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Jan 6, 2014 00:46
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Just because there's a lot of it doesn't automatically make any of it good.
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Jan 6, 2014 00:46
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Baldur's Gate is about a guy playing bandits, merchant houses, and governments off each other in an effort to start a needless war between Baldur's Gate and Amn. You can ignore all that stuff if you want and you don't have to pay attention to it to beat the game, but it's kind of weird to say it's an old fashioned dungeon crawl or whatever that doesn't care about intrigue when the parts of the plot that aren't you finding out your ancestry are about unraveling Sarevok's complicated intrigues.
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Jan 6, 2014 00:49
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Megazver posted:Yeah, it's generic as gently caress. Part of that is because its old enough that it helped establish a lot of the concepts that are 'generic' now because people have been copying and reinterpreting them for years. I dunno, that sort of feels like saying Middle Earth is generic as gently caress with its Dwarves, Elves, Orcs etc. And also because D&D has always been a weird hodgepodge of stuff mashed together with little rhyme or reason beyond 'would this be cool to fight?'.
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Jan 6, 2014 00:49
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rope kid posted:FR Adventures and the Volo's Guide to ______ books do a lot to flesh out the geopolitical landscape of the Realms, though a lot of it seems odd or unsustainable. Like the eternal Everwar between Conanland and Evil Wizard Land.
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Jan 6, 2014 00:56
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Zore posted:Part of that is because its old enough that it helped establish a lot of the concepts that are 'generic' now because people have been copying and reinterpreting them for years. I dunno, that sort of feels like saying Middle Earth is generic as gently caress with its Dwarves, Elves, Orcs etc. Yeah and Greyhawk. And Mystara. In fact, they're kind of interchangeable. The only difference is that Greenwood is a huge sperglord who can't stop coming up with setting minutiae. So, that doesn't automatically make it good, either. Megazver fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Jan 6, 2014 |
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Jan 6, 2014 00:58
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Zombies' Downfall posted:Baldur's Gate is about a guy playing bandits, merchant houses, and governments off each other in an effort to start a needless war between Baldur's Gate and Amn. You can ignore all that stuff if you want and you don't have to pay attention to it to beat the game, but it's kind of weird to say it's an old fashioned dungeon crawl or whatever that doesn't care about intrigue when the parts of the plot that aren't you finding out your ancestry are about unraveling Sarevok's complicated intrigues. Yeah but the way you uncover those intrigues is by kicking in the door of a house, murdering the inhabitants, stealing all their stuff and reading their letters to get the address of the next house you should murder-burgle. The intrigue isn't very well executed - the scene where Sarevok gets made a grand duke is downright comical!
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Jan 6, 2014 01:02
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verybad posted:Yeah but the way you uncover those intrigues is by kicking in the door of a house, murdering the inhabitants, stealing all their stuff and reading their letters to get the address of the next house you should murder-burgle. The intrigue isn't very well executed - the scene where Sarevok gets made a grand duke is downright comical! I trusted Koveras to my lament
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Jan 6, 2014 01:12
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Jimbot posted:That's a failing of the game not the setting, though. I still haven't found any coherent political maps of The Forgotten Realms, so you can't really fault the developers for not using them. Political elements don't really help if it's just "this guy was the mayor of this town," and not necessarily national borders, etc. My issue is more like that fact that the area between Waterdeep and Baldur's Gate is supposed to be roughly the area of France. Baldur's Gate is supposed to have a population of like 140,000 people, and Candlekeep around 100,000, which combined makes them roughly the same size as early modern Paris, Europe's largest city. A city of a hundred thousand people is a massive, massive metropolis, historically speaking, a time when large cities had around 10-15,000 inhabitants. But, somehow, they're city states. In order for a community to grow to that size they should have massive amounts of supporting communities, but they just really don't in any of the games. It's bizarre, and that's the kind of thing that breaks my ability to believe a setting.
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Jan 6, 2014 01:13
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