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They should just put industrialcraft wholesale into minecraft. Adds a bunch of ores/other cool blocks and they have uses.
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Jan 10, 2014 10:16
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Also a bunch of stupid garbage, intermediary filler recipes, and poor performance!
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Jan 10, 2014 10:21
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Yeah, that whole oversaturation with ores was what finally made me drop Metallurgy and replace it with Tinker's. A good decision, in hindsight. The trick to minecraft modding and creating modpacks is finding the mods that interact well with other mods and don't exist solely for their own sake when it comes to content and then making it look/perform/feel good. Stuff like Better Grass & Leaves helps, though.
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Jan 10, 2014 10:34
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Vib Rib posted:I have to agree with this sentiment. I've seen countless mods that boast "TWENTY NEW ORES!!! A HUNDRED NEW TOOLS!" but what kind of variety does that really add? If you have ten new ores and ten new armor sets and ten new tool sets and all you really add is a bunch of color swaps and some modded durability values why bother? What's the point of adding a dozen new pickaxes that are just marginally better than iron? Or a weird bright green or purple armor set out of your bizarre new ore that's got 0.5 more defense? I wouldn't mind more ores, if they came with special abilities, sorta like the various items from that EE2 mod. One type of metal gives things made from it a special ability, another metal another ability. Lava immunity, night vision, picks with area effects, water breathing and better vision under water. Something like that would be neat, I think. Especially something that allows you to explore water some more, though I guess that would just serve to highlight how empty the oceans are. But hey, make one of the ores spawn under water and you got a reason to go down there!
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Jan 10, 2014 10:52
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Vib Rib posted:I have to agree with this sentiment. I've seen countless mods that boast "TWENTY NEW ORES!!! A HUNDRED NEW TOOLS!" but what kind of variety does that really add? If you have ten new ores and ten new armor sets and ten new tool sets and all you really add is a bunch of color swaps and some modded durability values why bother? What's the point of adding a dozen new pickaxes that are just marginally better than iron? Or a weird bright green or purple armor set out of your bizarre new ore that's got 0.5 more defense? I was mildly guilty of this when I was modding. I threw in copper because I wanted to have a smoother tech gradiation than stone > iron > diamond. So I made copper more common at higher levels and changed worldgen so iron was found slightly deeper. (I was also using custom biomes so I was setting sea level to 128, giving me more space to work with.) If I was going to do it again I'd probably try to alter the armours to fit in with my ideas for improved combat: metal armours provide damage reduction and knockback immunity, but slow you down and increase stamina drain, while lighter armours (leather, fabric, etc.) give you more freedom of movement to dodge and jump. However I think that's beyond the capabilities of the mod toolkits I was using, and every time I've tried modding directly I've just broken Minecraft through my incompetence. Maybe once the modding API is out in 2025 I'll be able to convince some coder to work with me, who knows. MikeRowesDirtyJob posted:They should just put industrialcraft wholesale into minecraft. Adds a bunch of ores/other cool blocks and they have uses. If they did that then I would stop playing Minecraft until I could find a way to mod it all out. Not everyone likes the high-tech mods, you know.
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Jan 10, 2014 11:12
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Fuego Fish posted:I was mildly guilty of this when I was modding. I threw in copper because I wanted to have a smoother tech gradiation than stone > iron > diamond. So I made copper more common at higher levels and changed worldgen so iron was found slightly deeper. (I was also using custom biomes so I was setting sea level to 128, giving me more space to work with.)
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Jan 10, 2014 11:15
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Fuego Fish posted:I was mildly guilty of this when I was modding. I threw in copper because I wanted to have a smoother tech gradiation than stone > iron > diamond. So I made copper more common at higher levels and changed worldgen so iron was found slightly deeper. (I was also using custom biomes so I was setting sea level to 128, giving me more space to work with.) You are basically invincible once you are kitted out in iron anyway. Industrialcraft and other related mods lets you build cool machines and automate stuff. You don't actually have to use it and it adds a ton of depth to the game.
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Jan 10, 2014 11:18
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Vib Rib posted:The best balance I could see would be to put one more step above and below iron. Leather armor is absolutely impractical because I can't think of a single time I ever got 24 leather before I got 24 iron ore, and it wears out stupidly fast. There's no stone armor, which I guess chainmail was supposed to fill in for, but that never happened. And surprised as I was, one of my favorite things about redpower 2 was the gems it introduced, which not only looked nice as tools but provided a tier between iron and diamond, making me realize how important such an intermediate step could be. Not to toot on about my mod if I can help it, but I made it so pigs dropped leather as well. Also had wolves drop fur, but that's because I had plans that were quashed when I realized I had no way of adding in temperature. Also was going to have wool turn into fabric to make the armour tiers match the altered item tech tree: Wood, Stone, Bronze, Iron, Diamond for items; and Naked, Fabric, Leather, Iron, Diamond for armour. But honestly I felt like introducing new armour types was a bit moot when combat still stank to high heaven, and I couldn't mod that different either. Sometimes seems like I give up on Minecraft mods more than I actually start 'em. MikeRowesDirtyJob posted:You are basically invincible once you are kitted out in iron anyway. Industrialcraft and other related mods lets you build cool machines and automate stuff. You don't actually have to use it and it adds a ton of depth to the game. For certain values of "invincible", sure. loving skeletons still have that ineffable knockback that can ruin your day. And as far as I'm concerned, I don't want machines and automation. That's just how I prefer to play.
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Jan 10, 2014 13:10
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Fuego Fish posted:For certain values of "invincible", sure. loving skeletons still have that ineffable knockback that can ruin your day. And that's another thing new ores could affect. Really, new ores could really give some pretty interesting abilities. Of course, I still wouldn't mind Minecraft to have some primitive machines a la Better Than Wolves. Y'know, without the assless chaps and animal cruelty. I just want windmills 
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Jan 10, 2014 13:29
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Fuego Fish posted:Not everyone likes the high-tech mods, you know. There's a 'rule of software' that says that all programs bloat until eventually they send email. I think for Minecraft modding the rule should be, "all mods grow until you're eventually invincible".
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Jan 10, 2014 14:49
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fondue posted:There's a 'rule of software' that says that all programs bloat until eventually they send email. I think for Minecraft modding the rule should be, "all mods grow until you're eventually invincible". I'd argue that with MC combat being so awful, invincibility isn't really a bad thing. I've been playing Feed the Beast with my nephews, and while we're unstoppable juggernauts in our power armor, it's still a challenge to take on the bosses in the Twilight Forest. Both the Lich and Ur-Ghast were a pretty good challenge, and killed our party multiple times.
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Jan 10, 2014 15:05
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Boat posted:I'd argue that with MC combat being so awful, invincibility isn't really a bad thing. I've been playing Feed the Beast with my nephews, and while we're unstoppable juggernauts in our power armor, it's still a challenge to take on the bosses in the Twilight Forest. Both the Lich and Ur-Ghast were a pretty good challenge, and killed our party multiple times. I completely agree, combat is terrible. I run a PvP server and it's really clear that the real PvP is in destroying other players builds and not in actual player vs player combat. I think the game client would have to be rewritten for combat to be non-terrible.
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Jan 10, 2014 16:50
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Fuego Fish posted:
Do you have a link to the mod(s) you made?  Give it up fuego! I wanna find your bones in a deep dark hole
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Jan 10, 2014 17:31
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I feel like Terraria already handled the issue of "a bunch of ores and building materials translating into a dozen types of armor/pick axes" pretty decently. The problem with MC is that the game is not deep at all, in any way, so chucking more ores and more items would feel pointless. There is no need for that much progression in the game because there is nothing to progress to. It would be different if the overworld had 5 levels of tools and armor, because, for example, the Nether was much more difficult and had blocks that could only be mined by the top tier stuff. And then the Nether contained materials that gave way to a few more tiers so that you can do stuff in The End. But the game doesn't have that kind of progression at all. Most Nether blocks are easily breakable with early tools, and Iron is just as fine there as anything else for combat. Same for the End.
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Jan 10, 2014 18:55
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Someone said it already, but the biggest problem with Minecraft is iron. It's the most common raw material by a huge margin and makes you invincible. You're just as effective 30 minutes after starting a new seed as you are 30 hours into a new seed. Obsidian and diamonds are much more interesting resources, without both you can't do enchanting or brewing which makes finding your first diamonds an enormous upgrade. Granted once you get 20 blocks of obsidian you're basically done with the stuff, but you're probably going to be playing for a few hours before that happens. Iron is more of "welcome to the game, here's your armor that you never need to upgrade."
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Jan 10, 2014 19:08
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xzzy posted:Someone said it already, but the biggest problem with Minecraft is iron. It's the most common raw material by a huge margin and makes you invincible. You're just as effective 30 minutes after starting a new seed as you are 30 hours into a new seed. If Iron were far less common, then I could see Copper being a useful addition. The gap between leather armor and iron is pretty ridiculous. Copper could split the difference there. With tools, I don't know the stat comparison between stone and iron, but stone should be weaker if it isn't already, and that way copper would be barely stronger than stone, but with the durability of iron, while iron would be stronger than copper, with the same durability.
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Jan 10, 2014 19:18
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Basically what you guys are discussing here is what I've thought for a very long time, and that is: There's no real "progression" in Minecraft. Typically, what you want out of a game is the gradual, consistent improvements to your character or capabilities that are more or less equally spaced and consistently more impressive. Each of these improvements opens up more and more options to you and increases your power level propotionally. In some genres, this is represented in player skill (FPSes, League of Legends); sometimes is an RPG meta-element, like numbers-go-up or new-skill-learned; sometimes, like in exploration games (like Minecraft), it's access to new tech. Minecraft just doesn't really have that, and it's really a shame. For example, one thing that's bugged me since it was introduced: The Potion Brewing "Progression". You have all these overworld resources that can be used for potion brewing, but all potions -- every single one worth mentioning -- requires netherwart to make. What's more, the brew-stand requires blaze rods. So, here's this subsystem that would very naturtally progress as the player proceeded through the world, expanding capabilities organically as the player discovered new items that can be used to make new potions ("Sweet, with this sugar-cane I just came accross in the swamp biome, I can now make swiftness potions!") and then they back-loaded the entire loving thing into the end-game. It literally became "Find a nether fortress? Ok, you can now brew basically every potion in the game." This, to me, is the exact problem Minecraft has throughout. Most mods I play with add a real, "game-like" progression. Say what you like about Thaumcraft's awful gather-and-click-click-click until something happens research system, but at least it lets you feel like you're gradually improving. With Thermal Expansion and other tech mods, even if you don't like "industry" in your Minecraft, at least you can see how someone can start out with a small set-up and gradually improve and build upon their factory and it's automation. TL;DR: What Minecraft needs, IMHO, is a progression. Any progression. Blasphemeral fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Jan 10, 2014 |
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Jan 10, 2014 21:10
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Blasphemeral posted:For example, one thing that's bugged me since it was introduced: The Potion Brewing "Progression". It's this entire system that you get all at once, but you don't even get to touch it until you don't really need it anymore. I've never really thought about it in this way, but I think you're absolutely right: The reason tech/magic/etc mods that have these ladders of progress are so popular is because vanilla Minecraft doesn't. Some kind of progression is so desired that people flock to mods like that.
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Jan 10, 2014 21:56
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It's actually a really great idea for a mod (or a feature but let's be realistic here) and IIRC part of what Fuego Fish's CustomStuff2 mods sought to address; weren't there tiered crafting benches and things like that? Tier I brewing stands could be made with a stick instead of a blaze rod and be able to brew anything, but slowly. Level I potions could be made with an overworld plant (Creeperwort? I don't know) and then Level II potions use Nether Wart and the blaze rod can make a faster brewing stand. It's true that the first thing I do in any vanilla world is make a branch mine at y12 looking for diamonds. Once I have them I've got top tier tools. Done. Even progressively harder layers of stone would help with that, so you actually have a reason to use stone tools more than long enough to get iron. Tool durability kind of ruins a sense of progression too, since whenever you get diamond tools, you barely want to use them lest you break them.
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Jan 10, 2014 22:20
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Inepta Lacerta posted:The trick to minecraft modding and creating modpacks is finding the mods that interact well with other mods and don't exist solely for their own sake when it comes to content and then making it look/perform/feel good. Stuff like Better Grass & Leaves helps, though. The reason I stopped even looking at mods is because they all became these weird vanity projects. About the last one I stopped keeping track of was Mo' Creatures, and that's because that at least added a lot of variety to the world. It's why this last update was the bee's loving knees to me, tossing us biomes and new blocks!? Yes please! Now if only the whole "enemies are a hassle to fight and also there's only like 4 different ones on the overworld" thing. Or birds. I would totally accept little pixel birds just knocking around the world.
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Jan 10, 2014 22:36
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Fortis posted:Tool durability kind of ruins a sense of progression too, since whenever you get diamond tools, you barely want to use them lest you break them.
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Jan 10, 2014 22:41
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Fortis posted:It's actually a really great idea for a mod (or a feature but let's be realistic here) and IIRC part of what Fuego Fish's CustomStuff2 mods sought to address; weren't there tiered crafting benches and things like that? That's kind of my issue with diamond tools at the moment. I have them, but I mostly stick to enchanting iron since I can easily build more iron stuff. That's why I wanted a villager that could repair tools for a price of gold and or emeralds. Any downside to hopping on the snapshot? I kind of want to get started with purging my old villagers and making new ones. Also, I would like to mess around with the new enchant stuff. On a side note: Kind of wish my villagers weren't obsessed with opening and closing a single door during the day, and didn't all huddle in the same building at night.
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Jan 10, 2014 22:46
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ToastyPotato posted:*click*click*click*click*click*click*click*click*click*click*click*click*click* Sounds like they need an exorcist.
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Jan 11, 2014 00:53
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Fortis posted:Tool durability kind of ruins a sense of progression too, since whenever you get diamond tools, you barely want to use them lest you break them. Do people actually do this? Like, get diamond tools and not even use them? I hear people in here say that iron is the way to go because it's easy to get, but I've always just quickly gone on a search for diamond, and once I have enough for a diamond tool, I'll never have to go back to iron ones. They're pretty easy to repair, and a simple Unbreaking III enchant makes a diamond pickaxe last forever. I also always walk around in full diamond armor, which pretty much makes you invincible as well. I can't imagine using iron tools anymore.
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Jan 11, 2014 00:55
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The B_36 posted:Do people actually do this? When enchanting used to cost 50 levels, and you couldn't repair enchanted tools, yes. But now that enchantments are 30 levels, anvils can repair enchanted items, and trading means all diamond equipment is infinitely renewable, I'm quite down for using that poo poo.
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Jan 11, 2014 01:05
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Not to mention, a blacksmith villager or two just prints cheap diamond gear of any kind you could want. Efb: Yeah, what he said.
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Jan 11, 2014 01:05
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I would love more uses for obsidian, especially cool-looking armor with it that has special enchanting bonuses or something like that. Like a tier up from gold--good for enchanting but with a higher durability. Also, if we're going to keep getting cool stuff to collect, can we please for the love of god have some kind of mobile storage that's not a donkey? This game is screaming for a backpack you can make with leather or wool.
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Jan 11, 2014 02:03
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Carotid posted:I would love more uses for obsidian, especially cool-looking armor with it that has special enchanting bonuses or something like that. Like a tier up from gold--good for enchanting but with a higher durability. An ender chest will also function as a mobile storage.
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Jan 11, 2014 02:19
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I mean something streamlined that increases your inventory space when you're caving/exploring; I'd rather have a larger inventory/extra tab of inventory rather than have to make an ender chest, plonk it down, store things, break it, and then pick it back up again. Making a backpack with leather or wool would also make it accessible much earlier in the game--a time when you don't necessarily have a home base to dump all of your crap in when you're exploring the land/caves. A backpack would make too much sense in Minecraft.
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Jan 11, 2014 02:24
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Carotid posted:I mean something streamlined that increases your inventory space when you're caving/exploring; I'd rather have a larger inventory/extra tab of inventory rather than have to make an ender chest, plonk it down, store things, break it, and then pick it back up again. Making a backpack with leather or wool would also make it accessible much earlier in the game--a time when you don't necessarily have a home base to dump all of your crap in when you're exploring the land/caves. A backpack would make too much sense in Minecraft. This is why over 40% of minecraft players use modded clients now. There is too much stuff the game needs that Mojang will never get around to. Basically everything in this thread that someone mentions "if only they added/fixed..." is done very well by some mod or another.
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Jan 11, 2014 02:29
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I used to have a couple of large cow farms that gave me tons of xp. I would churn out enchanted books until I could make an unbreaking 2/3 pickaxe. If you rename it, it used to fix the xp required to repair, so this was a good way of getting a pickaxe that would be fairly easy to maintain. Lave can still get it though.
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Jan 11, 2014 02:57
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If I'm recalling right, you can only use an Ender Chest as mobile storage if you've got a Silk Touch tool or a pile of Ender Eyes handy, as they only drop 8 obsidian when broken.
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Jan 11, 2014 04:15
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(Edit: Left my tab open a while before posting this, but I'm specifically referring to the posts about proper progression.) Does anyone working on Minecraft read this thread, and are these very valid points brought up elsewhere? I mean, if all of these suggestions were actually worked on and put into vanilla, we'd have a much better game on our hands. I love reading about them, because for a brief moment, I can vividly picture playing a 'fixed' Minecraft. Seriously, why isn't anyone making these fundamental changes? 
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Jan 11, 2014 05:10
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Everyone's making all of these points and more simultaneously across all of the internet, dude, and half of those people also think those changes would be the worst thing ever to be put in the game.
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Jan 11, 2014 05:27
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Rupert Buttermilk posted:Seriously, why isn't anyone making these fundamental changes? Because the game would have to be redesigned from the ground up for them to work.
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Jan 11, 2014 05:31
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Eric the Mauve posted:If I'm recalling right, you can only use an Ender Chest as mobile storage if you've got a Silk Touch tool or a pile of Ender Eyes handy, as they only drop 8 obsidian when broken. Yup, good point. Ender chests are great for accessing stuff from multiple bases, but that's basically it (and you can't make a double ender chest either, so the inventory space is permanently limited); they're terrible as mobile storage. Caves can be so large and sprawling that my #1 reason for returning to the surface is due to running out of storage space. If not because caves can get boring and same-y really fast. I'm a huge nerd who loves running around the surface to see the sights and build bases that fit the landscape; at this point, the only reason I venture underground is to get supplies. I would love some changes that would make going undergound just as exciting. Speaking of boring underground stuff, I actually get disappointed when I find mine shafts now. To me, they're the epitome of wasted potential--they're gigantic and confusing with minimal treasure/interesting landmarks to be found. Even though desert and jungle temples are also very same-y, at least their time investment to loot ratio is better. Mine shafts are just too sprawling with too little payoff. I loved the idea of underground villages that was earlier in the thread; it would be great to stumble across a mine shaft that leads you to a cool little village of subterranean people.
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Jan 11, 2014 05:45
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Needing Lapis for enchanting is cool I guess. I like the cheaper cost of combining/repairing and am going to assume that people will cry that it is too easy now which will get it changed/removed. I like being able to see what enchant you are going to get, but holy crap you can no longer dodge a lovely roll on enchants. Example: Bane of Arthropods got you down? TOO BAD! Even if you throw a shovel in to change the roll, if you take the shovel out you just get BoA all over again unless you actually enchant the shovel or something else!
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Jan 11, 2014 06:14
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The problem with the progression in this game is that everything just gets better, which means everything just gets easier. You progress to iron then diamond tools and armour. Then you slap a bunch of enchants upon them. Then you chug a bunch of potions on top. All of which is fine, except for the fact that you face exactly the same monsters using enchanted diamond weapons as you do in that first hour when you are using stone gear and scrabbling to build a shelter. I think the Wither was an excellent addition that counters this. A summonable beastie that puts up a hell of a fight, and which drops a unique item which can be used in a bunch of ways. If you are going to fight it, then all the enchanted gear and potions you can put your hands on are a necessity rather than a luxury. Minecraft should straight up copy Terraria on this, and put in more summonable monsters. Especially if they can drop exclusive stuffs, even if just vanity items. It's something to do, gives some later end goals, and the means of summoning the critters could lead to a series of quests in the overworld. I mean, how about a monster that was summoned by assembling several fossils? Scatter those fossils underground at a level that is away from the popular strip-mining levels and they'd be legitimately rare items that would be exciting to find.
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Jan 11, 2014 06:14
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flatluigi posted:Everyone's making all of these points and more simultaneously across all of the internet, dude, and half of those people also think those changes would be the worst thing ever to be put in the game. I had someone tell me they would scour the internet to remove something from the game they would never have to use and come into contact with that would drastically give the game needed progression options.
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Jan 11, 2014 06:21
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I think the only sane way to approach this sort of situation is for devs to simply ignore anyone that wants optional content removed. These people are not thinking rationally or maturely and are going to whine loudly on the internet and still play the game no matter what. I would also say the same for new content that does not actively break or remove old content. I mean, the only time criticism of new stuff should be considered is if something is being changed in a way that might make things more difficult or easy. Because you have to make sure that there aren't valid complaints about balance and balance is a tricky thing to get right. Adding more blocks, mobs, biomes, etc only really serve to expand what is already there, so anybody out their crying about new stuff should really just be ignored. Chances are, if tons of people agree, there will be a mod to remove it. I'd rather simple mods exist to remove random content then having mods exist for the purpose of making the game feel more complete.
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Jan 11, 2014 06:27
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