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People seem to be focusing on the aesthetic of the show more than anything else. Superficially, yes, it is cool to see a whole bunch of 50+ year old women in starring roles. I love Bassett, Pupone, Lange, Bates, Conroy. However, their collective talent, combined with the beautiful cinematography, does not begin to atone for how bad the writing is. This season was supposed to be about women being empowered, but it's like a sorority house catfight with magic sprinkled on top. There is no Romeo and Juliet romance to the Zoe/Kyle story. He's treated as a fuckpuppet and little else, which wouldn't be so unpalatable if he wasn't introduced as a goddamn rape/incest victim. The mythology is as malleable as clay; it exists only to serve a shocking scene, and then takes another form. I guess I'm going to go catch up on Sleepy Hollow's past few episodes that I've missed, and try to put this out of my mind.
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Jan 16, 2014 12:25
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escape artist posted:I guess I'm going to go catch up on Sleepy Hollow's past few episodes that I've missed, and try to put this out of my mind. escape artist posted:There is no Romeo and Juliet romance to the Zoe/Kyle story. He's treated as a fuckpuppet and little else, which wouldn't be so unpalatable if he wasn't introduced as a goddamn rape/incest victim. Kyle's abuse seems like it's just there to gross people out. It's played for a cheap shock, and that's yet another thing that this season dropped the ball on. Speaking of Kyle and Zoe, my video cut out a few seconds after they boarded the bus. Did anything happen after that, or does this episode actually attempt a happy ending? I was expecting them to see Madison on the bus already waiting for them. Taliaquin fucked around with this message at 12:52 on Jan 16, 2014 |
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Jan 16, 2014 12:50
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^^Not sure. It looked like a "happy ending" for me. There's no way their story is over. I agree with everything else you said, by the way. Taliaquin posted:I just started watching Breaking Bad and am finding it a nice palate cleanser, as so far it seems like the writers planned an entire season's narrative rather than just throwing plot darts at the wall. Better late than never.  I wish I could watch it all again for the first time. Enjoy!edit: Breaking Bad actually changed a lot of their planned storylines throughout the show, but Vince Gilligan makes it work. PM me if you want to discuss it, since there's no Breaking Bad spoiler-free thread. escape artist fucked around with this message at 13:02 on Jan 16, 2014 |
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Jan 16, 2014 12:59
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I really wasn't fussed with Cordelia blinding herself. What's the point of it? She'll just fumble around more. Tate has had no storyline and Zoe is a dull. Queenie's arrival was so half-assed. Ghost Spalding magically reappearing. If only this season was as good as previous seasons. So much wasted potential thanks to Ryan Murphy's clusterfuck writing. I will probably never stop watching  I did like...
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Jan 16, 2014 14:26
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Andrew_1985 posted:I really wasn't fussed with Cordelia blinding herself. What's the point of it? She'll just fumble around more. When she got new eyes she lost her magical truth-sight. She thinks getting rid of the new eyes will bring it back.
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Jan 16, 2014 14:29
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haveblue posted:When she got new eyes she lost her magical truth-sight. She thinks getting rid of the new eyes will bring it back. Well she apparently did get it back, unless Myrtle is full of poo poo. Figuratively at least, since everyone is literally full of poo poo if I read that soup scene correctly. I don't get what the eye potion was, though. Something to help her aim?
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Jan 16, 2014 14:34
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QuickbreathFinisher posted:I don't get what the eye potion was, though. Something to help her aim? I thought she was going to use magic to re-blind herself, but I guess maybe it was just some sort of organic iodine? Don't want to get an infection after shoving knives in your skull.
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Jan 16, 2014 15:06
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QuickbreathFinisher posted:I don't get what the eye potion was, though. Something to help her aim? She mentioned that she was trying different ways of re-awakening the sight with potions and such, I figure that that salve on her eyes was just another attempt and when that failed she was desperate enough to finally gouge her eyes out.
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Jan 16, 2014 15:12
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haveblue posted:When she got new eyes she lost her magical truth-sight. She thinks getting rid of the new eyes will bring it back. Ah yeah, I understood it was for her 'sight' to come back. But they'd just offed the witch hunters so the major threat was gone. If she did it to expose the other witches, then it's a stupid move.
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Jan 16, 2014 15:20
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I don't understand why people are complaining about plot coherence, character development, blah blah blah. This episode had a glorious Lee Radziwill reference and recognized the historical import of the wrap dress. Production budget = justified!
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Jan 16, 2014 16:00
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Frances Conroy carrying the show on her back, at this point
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Jan 16, 2014 16:03
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All of them are. We're still watching because each individual scene is wonderful even if they don't really mesh together that well.
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Jan 16, 2014 16:08
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Amused to Death posted:Shockingly, this may be what people want and like about it considering the show is doing better than ever. Many of us in fact like the absolute mess, it makes it fun to watch. The coherence is terrible but frankly I don't think it's bringing it down. Man, no, gently caress that. I really hate that mentality. Just because more people are watching it does not make it better. AHS in season 1 was already pretty trashy television, but it had a line that it didn't cross. It grounded itself in some sort of realism. It developed characters. It kept things mysterious. Remember in season 1 where Dennis O'Hare was running around all burnt to a crisp and just being really loving weird? It took until halfway through the season before they revealed that he torched his family for Jessica Lange and every action he did made sense. Same with the Maid, same with Tate. They developed characters and plotlines and stories. It was trashy, but at least you weren't embarrassed to watch it. This season has gone full blown camp. Just look at the Reddit forum for it. The overall voice of reason is always the top upvoted post, that this show is horribly written, that they aren't developing any story, and that there's not enough time left in the season for anything to be resolved. Then, right after that voice of reason, there's a thousand posts about people GUSHING over performances from Myrtle or Stevie Nicks or any other poo poo actor they've been pedaling out there. And that's the problem. People are more worried about individual performances (which are god awful, Myrtle is a terrible actress) than the overall story. This show was about stories, now it's about seeing actors and actresses ham it up for an hour every Wednesday. I agree that this show is spiraling and it's fun to watch the train wreck, but that's the only reason. It's not making the show better, and the people who love the camp aspect will just jump ship the second another TV drama goes full moron.
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Jan 16, 2014 16:22
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haveblue posted:All of them are. We're still watching because each individual scene is wonderful even if they don't really mesh together that well. This season seems to be falling into a lot of the same pitfalls as Glee -- there are individual scenes and moments that are brilliant, and scenes/moments that are beyond stupid, but nothing jives together to produce a show that's actually good. Both the rules of this universe and character personalities are arbitrary and liable to change in any given scene just to suit the tone of that scene. Coherence isn't necessarily vital to creating a good, or at least entertaining, show; I love Pretty Little Liars, after all. But it's hard to get amped up about, say, Fiona and Marie laying waste to the upper echelon of witch hunters when they've really not done anything beyond exist; Marie herself contributed more to Hank's murder spree than his father ever did. And it's hard to be all  about LaLaurie's return to her torture/murder ways when we seem to be missing the line to connect the dots of "crying while watching footage of the civil rights movement" and "THE BLOOD OF THE BLACKS MAKES ME THIRSTY FOR MOOOOOORE".
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Jan 16, 2014 16:30
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I just like witches and magic and ghosts and poo poo. I usually don't care how bad a show is if it has that stuff anyways. I just wish I could find one that was consistently amazing. Not necessarily high fantasy either but that's nice too. And this show has a lot of style anyways despite what it does to its plot and characters. I'm sorry, but that image of Cordelia smashing pots in emotional anguish while Myrtle plays the theremin is just priceless. I keep watching because of poo poo like that.
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Jan 16, 2014 16:31
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xeria posted:This season seems to be falling into a lot of the same pitfalls as Glee -- there are individual scenes and moments that are brilliant, and scenes/moments that are beyond stupid, but nothing jives together to produce a show that's actually good. Both the rules of this universe and character personalities are arbitrary and liable to change in any given scene just to suit the tone of that scene. Not to mention that they're incredibly hampered by their budget and technology. Every witch action this season is the equivalent of using the force. All Fiona and Laveau did was swipe their hands and have the guns fly away. I'm not exactly sure what witch powers even are since they never outlined them. The first hint I even got was from the preview for next episode where they showed Clairvoyance, Pyrokenisis, and umm... something else. From what I can guess a good witch can light stuff on fire, see into the future, read someone's mind, and deflect bullets. That's about it. Oh and I guess whatever the gently caress Queenie does.
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Jan 16, 2014 16:51
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Yet more bad writing on this show: at the beginning LaLaurie complains about having to clean their "sex stained sheets". So who's having sex in the house? Fiona goes out. Kyle is the only man in the house and he's not doing anyone (as shown in this episode) and no one is bringing people back. None of the girls seem to be in a relationship with each other. A masturbation epidemic seems unlikely, or at least unlikely to be enough to justify the comment. We're supposed to be going, "Yep, these characters are having tons of sex!" and not think about what that implies.Doltos posted:Not to mention that they're incredibly hampered by their budget and technology. Every witch action this season is the equivalent of using the force. All Fiona and Laveau did was swipe their hands and have the guns fly away. You can do all sorts of creepy witch stuff without significantly changing the budget. Hell, you could probably do it better and cheaper with writing and acting than having stunt men bounce off walls. The accusations of witchcraft traditionally are linked to natural, unfortunate circumstances; they don't need overt super powers. Random Stranger fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Jan 16, 2014 |
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Jan 16, 2014 17:14
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I think this show is still a lot of fun and I love it.
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Jan 16, 2014 18:08
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If Zoe isn't the next supreme you can add her magic zombie blasting powers followed by Marie Lavaeu commenting that there is "some real power in that house now" to the forgotten storyline pile.
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Jan 16, 2014 18:44
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TheBizzness posted:If Zoe isn't the next supreme you can add her magic zombie blasting powers followed by Marie Lavaeu commenting that there is "some real power in that house now" to the forgotten storyline pile. It's pretty clear that all of the young witches powers are advancing at supreme levels for some reason.
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Jan 16, 2014 19:00
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I think when Madison finds out that Zoe and Kyle are gone she's going to track them down and kill Kyle (because if she can't have him, neither should Zoe). That will cause Zoe to unleash her true potential as the Supreme. Has anyone else noticed how in this show every wound can be healed and anyone can be revived as long as it's not a black character? I mean, these witches can cure blindness, reattach limbs and bring you back from the dead no matter how bad your wounds were, but when some black witches die no one bothers to bring them back or even make sure they were actually dead.
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Jan 16, 2014 19:03
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rawdog pozfail posted:It's pretty clear that all of the young witches powers are advancing at supreme levels for some reason. In the previews they show all of the witches doing magic (or at least holding their hands up and concentrating on something), so it looks like we're heading for a four-way Seven Wonders-off.
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Jan 16, 2014 19:08
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Any continuity in plot and character motivations died about the same time as Madison. Kyle the zombie boyfriend is a metaphor for this season's plot. He seems like a pretty decent guy when he's introduced and maybe they were going somewhere with him and Zoe, but then he's forgotten about suddenly and relegated to being the subject of boring witch bitch drama over whose fucktoy he gets to be. On the bright side, Kyle actually got some lines this episode! Edit: oh, and it looks like the buried Nan in the same cemetery as Misty? Seems pretty likely there will be some more resurrection and we'll see them both again before the end of the season. Frankly, I'd be more surprised if they didn't resurrect them (and hell why not Spalding and/or the Axeman while we're at it) at this point. Oh, Queenie's alive? SHOCKER. Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Jan 16, 2014 |
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Jan 16, 2014 20:25
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Doltos posted:And that's the problem. People are more worried about individual performances (which are god awful, Myrtle is a terrible actress) than the overall story. This show was about stories, now it's about seeing actors and actresses ham it up for an hour every Wednesday. You don't even know who Lee Radziwill is, do you? There's obviously a lot of stuff going on in this show that you are completely missing and that is ok. Camp isn't necessarily stupid and you don't seem to have the reference points to evaluate what you're seeing beyond "not intended in all seriousness." I can tell you Ryan Murphy loved writing that jewelry box monologue, Frances Conroy loved delivering it and I loved watching it. It was a joyful expression of a type not commonly seen in popular media. This season is full of those moments. And yeah, that is enough for a lot of people, myself included, to enjoy the show even with all the structural flaws. I'm not sitting around in suspense fussing over witch powers, I'm enjoying a free-floating arch woman-of-a-certain-age/gay picaresque. I don't think the show is succeeding at every level its creators intend, but it's knocking it out of the park in that aspect and that is not the work of people going full moron.
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Jan 16, 2014 20:25
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solovyov posted:You don't even know who Lee Radziwill is, do you? Yep, you're the kind of person ruining this show.
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Jan 16, 2014 20:43
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QuickbreathFinisher posted:"In the fall, the rotting leaves smell like an Olympian's ejaculate." I love Myrtle so much. Well, I thought that's what she said, but I wasn't sure. Love it. 
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Jan 16, 2014 21:16
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solovyov posted:You don't even know who Lee Radziwill is, do you? Jesus Christ. Another one of you people*? *You people = those who ignore the gaping plotholes and other glaring errors because the show makes cultural references! And it's pretty! Go buy a kaleidoscope. I want a cohesive story. escape artist fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Jan 16, 2014 |
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Jan 16, 2014 21:18
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Doltos posted:Yep, you're the kind of person ruining this show. I don't understand how other people's enjoyment of this season is ruining the show for you, personally.
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Jan 16, 2014 21:20
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QuickbreathFinisher posted:I don't understand how other people's enjoyment of this season is ruining the show for you, personally. I don't understand how you mangled Doltos' words to come to that conclusion.
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Jan 16, 2014 21:21
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QuickbreathFinisher posted:I don't understand how other people's enjoyment of this season is ruining the show for you, personally. It's that he's content with pop culture references and pinpoints odd minor details of the show to justify that it's completely off the rails from what it used to be. They can keep the references and campiness in place, just give me a god damned cohesive story to follow. This is 100% identical to what happened to Glee, only that show started off campy so you knew what you were getting into before it went completely off the wall.
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Jan 16, 2014 21:30
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^ It's kind of hard to take it any other way. The show changed formula again(and admittedly have had some weak plot writing) so now it's being ruined in Doltos's mind even if more people like it more than ever. Doltos posted:Man, no, gently caress that. I really hate that mentality. Actually I'd say it does since AHS isn't going for fine art. AHS tries to be absolutely ridiculous and do hosed up things that leaves people watching not just for the episode but for scene to scene and if that's what people are tuning into see they're obviously doing it better than ever(and I'm not saying that as a personal preference, I'd rank this season the worst of all 3 of them as well). More people are obviously enjoying the show. In fact, last season, the one everyone raves about(and I agree was by far the best), actually did the worst in terms of viewership on average. They could've definitely done a lot better in the past few episodes, but as a whole their formula is working for what people watching this show want. e: Also Murphy said there's a hint to the next season in the last episode, so I guess put on your thinking caps. And will take place in 1950 and that Lange is working on her German accent. Amused to Death fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Jan 16, 2014 |
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Jan 16, 2014 21:31
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Unless solovyov secretly works on the AHS production team, he's not ruining the show. I'm sure everyone (including me and that poster) would love it if there was a better plot, but why get so angry over the idea that someone is happy watching The Ryan Murphy Vaguely Witch-Themed Variety Hour? At least you know that next season has a far greater chance than most shows of casting off its flaws. haveblue fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Jan 16, 2014 |
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Jan 16, 2014 21:37
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haveblue posted:Unless solovyov secretly works on the AHS production team, he's not ruining the show. I'd say that depends on what they take away as the successes and failures of this season (whether or not they'll right the ship in S4). Ryan Murphy has an ego that's at least a mile long so it's entirely possible that he just doubles-down on the incoherence in the face of these criticisms, even as he re-darkens the show to suit Jessica Lange's acting swan song.
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Jan 16, 2014 21:41
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haveblue posted:Unless solovyov secretly works on the AHS production team, he's not ruining the show. Because shows gear themselves towards whatever will increase their audience. With the increased number of viewers, AHS's production team is probably pleased with itself and will continue down this road. Eventually this show will be so off the wall that views will plummet and it will become an even bigger joke until it's ultimately canceled. I do blame people who watch the current iteration of this show and enjoy it while not caring too much about what made it good in the first place. That's my issue with Solovyov and other people who share his view point. Any show can go campy full moron, but why'd it have to be this one :/
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Jan 16, 2014 21:45
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Doltos posted:Because shows gear themselves towards whatever will increase their audience. With the increased number of viewers, AHS's production team is probably pleased with itself and will continue down this road. Eventually this show will be so off the wall that views will plummet and it will become an even bigger joke until it's ultimately canceled. I do blame people who watch the current iteration of this show and enjoy it while not caring too much about what made it good in the first place. That's my issue with Solovyov and other people who share his view point. The reason this show was such a pleasant surprise was because it embraced the campy horror tropes, but did so while simultaneously reinvigorating the genre. I agree with you 100%, by the way. Looks like this show is going to be another Nip/Tuck.
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Jan 16, 2014 21:52
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escape artist posted:I don't understand how you mangled Doltos' words to come to that conclusion. Doltos posted:Yep, you're the kind of person ruining this show. QuickbreathFinisher posted:I don't understand how other people's enjoyment of this season is ruining the show for you, personally.  Doltos posted:It's that he's content with pop culture references and pinpoints odd minor details of the show to justify that it's completely off the rails from what it used to be. They can keep the references and campiness in place, just give me a god damned cohesive story to follow. Fair point, if that's the case. I definitely get what you're saying a little better now. I'm not familiar with Glee so I can't speak to that, but I think the difference here is that each of the seasons have been drastically different in tone, structure, and plot themes, with little attempt to connect them to each other. The fact that this season was an attempt at a camp and dark comedy, which overall turned out pretty lukewarm in my opinion, will have little bearing on tone, structure, or plot theme of the fourth season. I agree that he might see the positive comments and let them go to his head, but I think (hope) that as a writer he would look at criticisms of this season, too, and see what people don't like about this season*. Tom and Lorenzo have been trashing it, and I can't imagine they're the only ones. But me, I like it just fine. Definitely the weakest season, by far, but it's a little early for death knells. Doltos posted:And that's the problem. People are more worried about individual performances (which are god awful, Myrtle is a terrible actress) than the overall story. Also, dude, Frances Conroy is a phenomenal actress, watch Six Feet Under. She's acting the poo poo out of subpar writing and a character that's supposed to be melodramatic and loving bonkers. *fake edit: although apparently he's kinda full of himself so maybe he won't take the criticism.
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Jan 16, 2014 21:57
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escape artist posted:The reason this show was such a pleasant surprise was because it embraced the campy horror tropes, but did so while simultaneously reinvigorating the genre. Yeah I really have to make it clear that I recognize that right from the get go this show was full on campy horror tropes. I rolled my eyes when I found out the first season was a haunted house story, but the way they took it on was fresh and fun. The angle shots, the lighting, the vaudevillian acting. It was fun, it was somewhat scary, and it worked. It worked because there was a cohesive storyline, a vested interest in the characters, and had ultimate, final decisions. When Zoe died I was actually in disbelief. I thought it was some weird trick the house was pulling but nope, she OD'd and died. Final. End. Kaput. They've completely abandoned that this season. There's no excuse for it either, really, besides lazy writing. I have no problem with camp, just do it right. QuickbreathFinisher posted:Also, dude, Frances Conroy is a phenomenal actress, watch Six Feet Under. She's acting the poo poo out of subpar writing and a character that's supposed to be melodramatic and loving bonkers. I've never seen Six Feet Under but I can agree with this sentiment. I'm not sure if it's her or the character but Myrtle is a nothing character that is more annoying and pointless than mostly every other character in this show's history. I think it's again due to character development, as she went from quiet obsessed with Fiona to bat poo poo crazy in zero seconds. Doltos fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Jan 16, 2014 |
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Jan 16, 2014 22:00
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I only gave season three a chance to improve because the first two seasons were so good (although in different ways). At this point I'm only continuing to watch because I've ridden the horse this far, I might as well take it to the end. Next season is going to get a lot less slack from me; if I don't see obvious signs of improvement episode one then I'm out right there. Thinking about this, that's how I treated seasons two and three of Heroes. By the halfway point I knew the show was in trouble but I watched it out and then when season three was obviously going the same way I just dropped it. From the ratings where the third season premier got good numbers and then fell off a cliff it seems like I wasn't the only one.
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Jan 16, 2014 22:02
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Frances Conroy is loving amazing and one of my favorite actresses. Reiterating that everyone needs to watch Six Feet Under. Have plenty of tissues nearby. She plays the soft, gentle, caring motherly figure so well, with all the faults that come with that. But when she gets a role or a scene where she has to have a little psychotic meltdown or be a full-blown badass (see parts of AHS season 2), she does it absolutely perfectly. The character of Myrtle is ridiculous and over the top, and no one could portray that better than Conroy.
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Jan 16, 2014 22:16
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escape artist posted:Jesus Christ. Another one of you people*? Dude. You failed to distinguish between a crypt and a crematorium. And then you failed to manifest any shame over it. You seem to think that the show is honest to God sincerely presenting loving Orlando as Shangri-la, as if the destination isn't an absurd joke obvious to anyone with a minimum degree of cultural awareness and slightly in-tune with the spirit of the show. For fucks sake, it's great you enjoy posting here and it's great that some other people enjoy your posts but if we had a thread devoted to criticizing your creative output I'd be more than happy to drop the generosity and apply a merciless critical eye. The show does some things well. The things it does well are things barely being done elsewhere. I enjoy those things. I don't expect American Horror Story: Coven to satisfy all my storytelling needs. There's actually a good number of shows delivering a cohesive story. My "I want a cohesive story" itch is scratched in many other places such that I don't feel the need to get pissy at this show for not delivering that when it is delivering other things I like. Doltos posted:Because shows gear themselves towards whatever will increase their audience. With the increased number of viewers, AHS's production team is probably pleased with itself and will continue down this road. Eventually this show will be so off the wall that views will plummet and it will become an even bigger joke until it's ultimately canceled. I do blame people who watch the current iteration of this show and enjoy it while not caring too much about what made it good in the first place. That's my issue with Solovyov and other people who share his view point. I have some horrible news for you. I have not watched the first two seasons of this show because I generally do not enjoy horror. I am your better ratings and I was drawn in by a review of the first episode that promised old broads getting sharp. I have not been disappointed. I have no emotional investment in "what made it good in the first place" because all the praises people sung about the first two seasons were promising an experience (horror) I know that I do not enjoy. I did not get angry that all these talented actors were being put to use in a show that was not built for me, I simply did not watch. I could almost summon some sympathy for you in that I know it's disappointing to have a show you enjoy shift into something that you do not, but for your insistence on referring to the current incarnation as "full moron." This attitude fails to credit the difficulty of producing the little moments/details you consider so trivial and that I have taken so much pleasure in. You're being a vulgarian while beating the drum for a more tightly written horror show and that isn't sympathetic at all.
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Jan 16, 2014 22:23
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