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kirkjames posted:What is the endgame in the truther mindset? I mean, if they are right, and it's all a huge hoax and setup, what, in their mind, is the result? Do they expect once everyone knows "the truth," there will be a revolution or something? Certainly if the government is the diabolical authoritarian mastermind they claim it is, even everyone knowing that 9/11 was a false flag can't stop them. E-Tank posted:To make money. At least all the people who are actually pushing this poo poo. 'Loose Change' made a good bit of They also do something similar to a lot of mainline liberal activist groups, i.e. "we need to educate people and that will change things." I think education (or propaganda) probably can change some things. I think having a lot of people in your suburban community who listen to Glenn Beck all day and think bike lanes are the work of a U.N. plan to erode American sovereignty can make implementing bike lanes difficult. You've seen this with opposition to GMO foods as well. This happened in a town near my hometown in Red State America--hundreds of aging Boomer suburbanites showing up at a city council meeting fearing that you'd have bike lanes one minute, and Chinese tanks rolling across the border from Canada the next. Another thing is that the the conspiracy movement's radicalism and apocalypticism, but also relative moderation (it's not engaged in an armed struggle with the government) can lead to some of its followers to become dissatisfied and seek solutions on their own. There are A LOT of lone wolf attacks going on in the U.S. by these people, but they are usually incompetent and ineffective, and they never leave the pages of the local news, or have journalists spend time on the stories to reveal what was going on. But you have people blowing themselves up trying to build bombs, getting into shootouts with police, taking potshots at power plants, attempting to sabotage pipelines, etc. Not to hype this: Very rarely do they see any results. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 00:46 on Jan 17, 2014 |
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Jan 17, 2014 00:29
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I've been reading the David Icke forums for a laugh for quite a while now. It's kind of good and funny, but occasionally you wander into a post or poster that really makes you feel that this is total schizoid voyeurism. This thing especially. To me the conspiracy mindset is achieved by thinking a) absolute good and evil exist and b) there's no such thing as a co-incidence. That thread on there is almost like a parody of that. I love how there are few replies to it too, and mostly just this guy crop-spraying nonsense with no-one calling him out on it. There's a tacit acceptance of it just being there on those forums that's just perfect, as long as it's claiming there's a vast conspiracy then it's fine, who cares how batshit it is.
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Jan 17, 2014 00:52
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kirkjames posted:What is the endgame in the truther mindset?
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Jan 17, 2014 04:06
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Modrasone posted:I've been reading the David Icke forums for a laugh for quite a while now. It's kind of good and funny, but occasionally you wander into a post or poster that really makes you feel that this is total schizoid voyeurism. This thing especially. Yeah thats straight out hebephrenic word babble. Kyoon style stuff rather than Icke style stuff.
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Jan 17, 2014 04:34
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kirkjames posted:What is the endgame in the truther mindset? I mean, if they are right, and it's all a huge hoax and setup, what, in their mind, is the result? Do they expect once everyone knows "the truth," there will be a revolution or something? Certainly if the government is the diabolical authoritarian mastermind they claim it is, even everyone knowing that 9/11 was a false flag can't stop them. Its not just that its a narrative about power, its also a narrative about contradictions. People hate contradiction, it confuses us, and it makes our brains hurt to have them in our heads at the same time. At least the contradictions our brains are accute enough to realise. So the end game really is to end contradiction, in the same way thats sort of an end game of marxism. Well a different way actually , but whatever the case is , conspiracy theories are a kind of dialectics for crazy people. The problem is for the conspiracy minded each conspiracy breeds more contradiction which needs new conspiracies to explain the other contradiction. Joe citizen with his racist and simple worldview thinks "Arabs are all primatives who ride camels everywhere". Not itself conspiratorial, just racist and wrong. Then he finds out some Arabs coordinated a 3 plane attack that managed to shut down the united states for a day. He thinks "Hang on, this cant be true, how would a guy on a camel who herds goats pull that off? This doesnt make sense!". And he turns on TV and theres a TV show called "Loose change" and it explains that a GOVERNMENT could organize that and its not the arab goat herder after all". It all makes sense! Until Joe notices that the government is supposed to be his friend and its job is to serve and protect. This doesn't make sense! So he reads a pamphlet on the church wall that explains Satan runs the free-masons and the freemasons run the government. Want proof, heres a masonic symbol an eye on a pyramid, now look at your dollar bill! (I have no idea whats on a dollar bill, Im aussie, but pretend theres a pyramid there if there isnt). It all makes sense! But then Joe realises his neighbor Ted is a freemason and he really aint no satanist, in fact he goes to church too, has a lovely wife and swell kids. This doesn't make sense. Until he sees a video on youtube about David Icke that explains one in six people are actually lizards, and lizards are the illuminati and one thing about lizards is they seem just like humans and are awfully nice to meet. It all makes sense. By this point Joe will believe anything, and if you can accept anything, well theres not really any more contradictions anymore. All these things are true even when they are opposite. He now literally believes a satanic space lizard conspiracy infiltrated the government using lizard bucks and convinced them to smash up the world trade center for some reason. I can't speculate because I'm not a psychologist but it must play havoc with peoples reasoning to believe things so contrary to the reality in front of their eyes. Whatever the case is, it seems to be like some sort of domino effect. As the contradictions pile up , rather than throwing away the contradictory crazy belief, they throw away the contradictory sane belief and replace it with a new crazy belief, but innevitably that causes more contradictions elsewhere and the process repeats itself and starts spiraling out of control until someones brain is just filled with stupid gibberish. The end result I think isn't as important as the process itself. Its about resolving abstract (and often quite concrete) contradiction. We all do it, we just haven't fallen into this particular cognitive black hole. But whats the end game? I dunno, living in a trailer sitting on a bedbug ridden brown couch in poo poo stained underwear listening to alex jones whilst masturbating, crying and wondering where the good old days went to? Or maybe the madness spreads , Alex Jones runs for pres, wins, and we all end up with the most loving batshit ugly government since Adolph hitler's conspiracy theory fueled reign decided to gently caress up europe for shits, giggles, and the end of the jewish conspiracy. duck monster fucked around with this message at 05:07 on Jan 17, 2014 |
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Jan 17, 2014 05:02
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The symbolic order of crazy tolerates no stable referent! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjIv_68gjPQ Agenda 21 is behind fracking! Thats right, the UN Agenda 21, a relatively benign and , frankly, somewhat innefective, UN treaty/policy thing that suggests that countries should start being more sustainable, is whats behind fracking somehow. Actually its not that hard to see where they get the idea. Agenda 21 is a big fixation of the Birchites, and their take is that environmentalism is a secret communist plot to erode property rights (ie environmental legislation) and thus pave the way for communism. Thus if fracking involves governments forcing people to have fracking wells on their land (It certainly has involved that here in australia due to the way mining leases work here. By law a mining lease can override almost any other property right. Yeah, I know, capitalism=private property right? We're back to those pesky contradictions in capitalism again, and thats where these conspiracy theories flourish.) then its about erosion of property rights and it must therefore be all about Agenda 21. edit: This video pretty much is a whirlwind train tour through a loving TONNE of conspiracy theories all in 5 minutes. Apparently the reason for IP address exhaustion (and/or I guess IPV6) is the RFID chips we're all going to be implanted with. Well I loving hope I'm not on Dynamic IP, I plan on running a bit torrent server on my mark of the beast! duck monster fucked around with this message at 06:53 on Jan 17, 2014 |
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Jan 17, 2014 06:44
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You seem to believe all 9/11 truthers are racist rednecks though. How does a leftist (of which many truthers are of that variety) justify that? There's a lot of factors that draw people to a conspiracy theory, some do it for the reasons you mentioned, others want to be part of a "secret club" where they know the truth above others.
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Jan 17, 2014 07:40
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RagnarokAngel posted:You seem to believe all 9/11 truthers are racist rednecks though. How does a leftist (of which many truthers are of that variety) justify that? It also might be that whole 'us vs them' dichotomy. "You say our poo poo is radical? Well *YOUR* party blew up the WTC!" 
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Jan 17, 2014 07:48
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RagnarokAngel posted:You seem to believe all 9/11 truthers are racist rednecks though. How does a leftist (of which many truthers are of that variety) justify that? There are a lot of Lefty truthers. The conspiracist mindset is really apolitical. Your politics, I think, just determine what flavour of conspiracy your drift towards. That's why I find the connection between David Icke and people like Lyndon LaRouche interesting. Icke's conspiracy bullshit is primed for aging hippies and New Agey Types even though it's the same poo poo as old timey conspiracy theorists. It's less about the meat of it and more about how you dress that up in terms of familiar ideological signifiers. I think that Duck Monster's example would work for nominally left-wing truthers if you played cross-ideological mad libs with it.
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Jan 17, 2014 08:17
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The boogiemen and the reasons depend on your political outlook, but the fundamentals are the same. Lefty truthers tend to see it as a way for the MIC and Neo fasacists to consolidate their power, make more money and otherwise screw over the normal people. Right wing truthers see it as a way for the communists and jew bankers to consolidate their power, make money and screw over normal people. Though you see way more overt racism in right wing conspiracies. Honest belief that gays, blacks, women, Muslims, jews, environmentalists, communists, socialists and all kinds of other minorities in reality have massive secret power and the white christian man is powerless in the face of their tyranny. Left wing scary people tend to be the rich, Christians, politicians, media, big companies etc.
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Jan 17, 2014 09:01
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There's also the tendency of certain people to accept any 'evidence' or support on their issue from conspiracy theorists or anyone else which leads to much craziness and I think gradual induction into the conspiracy theory mindset. Our town recently switched to using wireless reporting electricity meters. Long term this saves money from sending out meter readers etc, and also gives the electricity company more immediate insight into usage patterns, lets them plan ahead easier, yada yada. Now some people don't like that idea because they believe rightly or wrongly that the electricity company will use the data from the meters to raise rates, so they send out a newsletter to the neighborhood telling people to opt out from the installation. If we all opt out, everything will of course stay the same. They send out more newsletters as the months go on, each becoming crazier as it gets closer to the date of installation. First they start adding crap about how some people are affected by the wireless signals being sent out, that they cause cancer and will make you infertile, then they start adding information on how this is part of Agenda 21 (yes that again) and will end up with UN troops coming into your house to turn off your air conditioner and take your guns. Did they start off believing that? No. But they are so desperate for support that eventually they will take it (and maybe start believing it) from whatever source they can find. Edit: vv No, in Vermont but I guess a lot of the same stuff is now getting passed around between these opposition groups and as people Google for smart meter info as more electric companies roll them out. Red Warrior fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Jan 17, 2014 |
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Jan 17, 2014 18:55
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Haha are you in BC? I'm in Victoria and man there was a lot of that poo poo. A group made these laminated legal looking notices you were to duct tape over top of your old meter saying how it's illegal for them to hook up a smart meter and you DO NOT CONSENT to it and then a huge list of health and privacy concerns because the wi-fi was going to give you cancer and control your emotions and steal all your computer data from your wi-fi (which doesn't cause cancer of course because it's personal wifi not evil corporate government wifi). The government will know when I'm cooking and know when I'm home so when the troops come they can round us up easier! There's some group that keeps putting up posters on every telephone pole too. They look almost reasonable until you read the fine print. It will be something like "JANUARY 24th CONFERENCE ON MEDICAL TECHNOLOGY ETHICS" and then a list of guest speakers and a big list of reasonable sounding topics. Then if you actually stop and read it you'll see it's all about how the government wants to put RFID chips in all our brains to monitor our thoughts and they will hook into all the smart-meter wifi to track our locations and GMO food and chemtrails!!!!
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Jan 17, 2014 19:10
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I like to call that Ron Pauling; saying something completely reasonable to draw you in, then hitting you with a wall of crazy once you're hooked.
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Jan 17, 2014 21:16
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duck monster posted:I suspect they are in it for the money, and truly believe their shite too. I think that most people have a tendency to convince themselves that things that benefit them are true and morally good. While there are probably some popular conspiracy theorists or wealthy capitalists who are cynically taking advantage of things they know to be wrong/unfair, I imagine that most convince themselves that what they're doing is good/correct. Many wealthy bankers, for example, probably genuinely believe that the poor are actually better off in a society with high inequality ("a rising tide lifts all ships").
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Jan 17, 2014 21:55
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So uh... http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/01/16/obama-tall-white-aliens-rumor/ This happened. Can't wait to hear how many people latch onto it as proof that Obama is not born in America (unless there's a planet named America) and how this is all bullshit! 
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Jan 17, 2014 22:14
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Tall white aliens who created the nazis installing a phony black president is literally the plot of Perfect Dark.
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Jan 17, 2014 22:29
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RagnarokAngel posted:You seem to believe all 9/11 truthers are racist rednecks though. How does a leftist (of which many truthers are of that variety) justify that? There is a long and proud tradition in leftism of denying the potential for agency to non-white people.
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Jan 17, 2014 22:30
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Omi-Polari posted:Well I've spent way too much time reading LaRouche stuff tonight. The best I can make of it is that it's hardline state capitalism merged with far right conspiracy theories and technocratic elitism, and written in a Stalinist style. Like massive, totally unreadable and convoluted sentences.
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Jan 17, 2014 22:43
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duck monster posted:Agenda 21 is behind fracking! Best Friends posted:There is a long and proud tradition in leftism of denying the potential for agency to non-white people. It strikes the mind as capricious and unfair, that this isn't how the world is supposed to work. Individuals or small groups of people can maybe mug or murder you, engage in an attack that you can take some sort of steps against, if you try. But taking down a world landmark is punching way above their weight class, so to speak. We expect major threats to come from major players, from organizations that we know, people of influence and power, with resources at their backs. If a couple guys with boxcutters can pose such a threat, then suddenly the world becomes extremely unpredictable and threatening. So we redirect the source of the threat back to those we think should be capable of it, to the government, the people who have a monopoly on force. Obviously they could do it! It's easy to think up a scenario where they did! (Ignoring any implausibilities that crop up in that scenario) And so the world becomes understandable again, predictable. A terrible thing happened, but it's because there are bad people in this powerful position. If we kick them out, and replace them with good people, then such things will never happen again, and the world will be safe. Strudel Man fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Jan 17, 2014 |
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Jan 17, 2014 22:56
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twistedmentat posted:I like to call that Ron Pauling; saying something completely reasonable to draw you in, then hitting you with a wall of crazy once you're hooked. Since when has Ron Paul said anything reasonable?
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Jan 18, 2014 00:18
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Gen. Ripper posted:Since when has Ron Paul said anything reasonable? He supports marijuana legalization, normalizing relations with Cuba, and scaling down our overseas costs - to name a couple of his 'right twice a day' moments. There's just too much horrible looniness that comes with it. All these Conspiracy-driven political organizations are basically cults - and they are very clever. The LaRouchites have been on the ballot in New Jersey as the 'Glass Steagall Now' party. I encountered that Communist themed cult in maybe the second or third week in Zuccotti park.
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Jan 18, 2014 00:24
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RagnarokAngel posted:You seem to believe all 9/11 truthers are racist rednecks though. No I don't.
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Jan 18, 2014 03:49
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There's a podcast called "Blame It on Outer Space" which is supposed to be a comedy show about conspiracy theories and theorists. Is it any good?
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Jan 18, 2014 05:14
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Strudel Man posted:I don't know, I really don't think much of anything in the conspiratorial mindset is about 'resolving contradictions,' simply because conspiracy theories inevitably generate more contradictions than they resolve, just by virtue of being untrue, and often ludicrously so. Yes they create more contradiction, thats my whole point. The thing with contradiction resolution, is that its a feature of almost all oral myth. This is something the structuralists (particularly structural anthropologists) have been ranting about since the 50s;- The idea that there are abstract (and some not so abstract) forces that act on peoples lives that they don't understand but seem to run counter to their understanding of how things should be so they try and resolve that contradiction in language and myth. People in a village get sick and they don't know why because it runs counter to their idea of how their health works. They also know that they don't get on well with the neighboring village. Thus perhaps there is a sorcerer in the neigbhboring village who has cursed them. Meanwhile ten thousand miles away, the plague besets a small town in britain, nobody knows why they are getting black spots, but all their methods to contain the sickness are not working like they should so the priest suggests that possibly the local hookers have been practicing witchcraft. Well that seems to answer it. The process doesn't have to work, the point is, dialectical oppositions are there to be resolved, often with incomplete information, barmy ideas about how the world works and so on. The fact that the mythic process creates more contradiction just means that whilst the local opposition is resolved , its done at the cost at creating more oppositions. Its a meaning creation process, and meaning is never truly stable anyway.
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Jan 18, 2014 05:24
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duck monster posted:Yes they create more contradiction, thats my whole point. Cognitive dissonance may play some role in how conspiracy theories form, but I definitely wouldn't cast it as the star.
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Jan 18, 2014 09:28
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The whole point is, you can just blame it on more sorcerers or "the magic was too strong" or whatever. I mean this is how these guys seem to work with conspiracy theories. Whenever evidence comes along that disproves the theory (and it always does when the theory is so crazily wrong), it just becomes proof that the conspiracy is bigger than previously thought. Well of course the witnesses say they saw a plane hit the tower, THEY where in on it too! And all those scientists who keep pointing out that the physics match the theory of global climate change? The conspiracy has got to them too! And that dude on the science forum who patiently explained infra-red light properties of carbon dioxide? Even that chumps in on it. And so on... You can sort of see why the nazis ended up losing their poo poo and deciding to gas *all* the jews. The more the signs of the conspiracy grew the more jews would provide more evidence against the conspiracy, just proving they where in on it too, until everyone was in on it and they all had to get purged. Just have a browse of some of those conspiracy theory forums. Its not entirely clear who ISNT in on "the con"
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Jan 18, 2014 20:19
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duck monster posted:The whole point is, you can just blame it on more sorcerers or "the magic was too strong" or whatever. I mean this is how these guys seem to work with conspiracy theories.
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Jan 18, 2014 21:14
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Strudel Man posted:Of course. Because contradictions aren't really the problem in the first place, aren't why they imagine the conspiracy. People come up with complex cabals because the truth is itself uncomfortable, not because it clashes logically with other things they know, or think they know. That really isn't the case. Conspiracy theorists (or at least the ones I've known) almost live only to tell the uncomfortable "truth"; hell, half the appeal of conspiracy theories is that they reveal something that's kept from the public, or even delibrately ignored by them. I can only speak personally about this, but I fell for conspiracy theories almost purely because it contradicts what (I thought) I knew. Sure, not liking the truth may fuel conspiracies when an event happens, but the people who latch onto these things LOVE uncomfortable truths. This is also why many conspiracy theorists are bigotted as gently caress.
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Jan 18, 2014 23:21
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Jeff Boss isn't in on the con. Jeff Boss is an American hero fighting for the Truth.
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Jan 18, 2014 23:38
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duck monster posted:The whole point is, you can just blame it on more sorcerers or "the magic was too strong" or whatever. I mean this is how these guys seem to work with conspiracy theories. Whenever evidence comes along that disproves the theory (and it always does when the theory is so crazily wrong), it just becomes proof that the conspiracy is bigger than previously thought. Well of course the witnesses say they saw a plane hit the tower, THEY where in on it too! My ex-girlfriend was a truther who had lived in the financial district in New York City. She said she had never personally met anyone who had seen the planes hitting the towers and thought this was "suspicious." 
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Jan 19, 2014 01:06
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King Dopplepopolos posted:My ex-girlfriend was a truther who had lived in the financial district in New York City. She said she had never personally met anyone who had seen the planes hitting the towers and thought this was "suspicious." I agree, it is suspicious that somebody claiming to live in NYC would say that. You should have accused them of never living in New York at all.
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Jan 19, 2014 04:11
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That and loving no one lives in the Financial District.
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Jan 19, 2014 04:22
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I don't really spend my time looking out my window at major landmarks just in case they were attacked so if something happened to the CN Tower or BMO building or whatever here in Toronto I wouldn't witness it either. I assume many people have something better to do as well.
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Jan 19, 2014 06:36
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Personally, I'm a big believer in the "No Towers" theory. Sure, there are pictures, but those can be faked. Everybody who ever saw them from the outside was paid by the NSA. And everybody who went inside of them well, you got off on the subway and instead of going up, you went down. The simulated viewing room was covered up by the fountain.
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Jan 19, 2014 09:05
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I did read a fair number of accounts of NYC truthers who claimed to have not seen planes fly into the WTC, or claimed they actually saw missiles or lasers or Doctor Doom or Mario hitting the buildings. You know, maybe they honestly think they saw what they saw, but guess what, human memory is a horrible thing, especially when dealing with traumatic incidents. Eyewitness accounts are flawed and inaccurate, and as time goes by, you can forget things or even change it in your mind that you saw something. Why bigfoot or alien eyewitnesses are not enough evidence of these to exist, because you might actually see a tree stump or a raccoon, but your mind makes you think you saw something else. Thats being charitable, because you know some of these people are just loving lying. Speaking of being charitable, I just finished listing to a 2 part interview with an expert on ancient languages who was talking about the Zacharia Stichen works, and how horribly wrong he is about his Mesopotamian translations. The interviewer asked the expert "well, maybe Stichen has discovered a completely new translation" and the expert responds "Well, its possible, but still, the words Annunaki and Nibiru never appear in the same place in any known work.". BattleMaster posted:I don't really spend my time looking out my window at major landmarks just in case they were attacked so if something happened to the CN Tower or BMO building or whatever here in Toronto I wouldn't witness it either. I assume many people have something better to do as well. I'm in the beaches and on the clear day I can kinda see the CN tower if I go down the block to kew beach. So if someone blew it up, I'd probably see smoke coming from it, but i'd not see what caused it. Isn't NYC one of the biggest cities in the world? Maybe these people who didn't see anything on 9/11 lived in like Garden Hill or Brooklyn?
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Jan 19, 2014 09:20
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With all the smoke and poo poo in the air and peole running around screaming and general chaos I'm not surprised they didnt happen to notice two planes in the wrong place out of the tens of thousands that cross NYCs skyline in the wrong place.
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Jan 19, 2014 09:35
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http://mikiversepolitics.blogspot.com.au/2012/09/fema-camps-confirmd-in-australia.html So apparently *Australia* has FEMA camps. As to why FEMA would be in australia (Emergency services are state rather than federal here) who know.But hey, wheeeee. Also HAARP, Chemtrails, blah blah
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Jan 19, 2014 15:38
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duck monster posted:With all the smoke and poo poo in the air and peole running around screaming and general chaos I'm not surprised they didnt happen to notice two planes in the wrong place out of the tens of thousands that cross NYCs skyline in the wrong place. Er, I think if they saw two planes out of place after the WTC had been hit that would actually be quite the story, unless you're talking about everyday NYC having a lot of people running around screaming and poo poo in the air, which may be accurate. The main reason for people not seeing it, I'd think, is that in a region literally covered in skyscrapers your view is perpetually obstructed in nearly every direction, so unless you happened to be randomly looking in a very limited range of directions during a very, very narrow window of time you'd miss it. quote:Also HAARP, Chemtrails, blah blah
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Jan 19, 2014 19:20
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Zachack posted:Er, I think if they saw two planes out of place after the WTC had been hit that would actually be quite the story, unless you're talking about everyday NYC having a lot of people running around screaming and poo poo in the air, which may be accurate. Well, also BEFORE 9/11 you generally were not looking at the skies in fear every waking minute. There was only a few seconds before it hit the tower so in those scant few seconds you had to be looking up, in that narrow time window, in a place that you could actually see it, all by coincidence.
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Jan 20, 2014 15:25
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Whilst it could be argued as perhipheral to hardcore conspiracy theorism, I'd argue that its pretty closely correlated (since believing AGW isn't real requires by necessity requires believing in a vast left wing conspiracy to make physicists lie about science, or alternatively a conspiracy-theorist style ability to cope with massive cognitive dissonance.) Either way the nut of it is global warming denialism has jumped from 16% of americans to a whopping 23%. That americans basic understanding of science is dropping so rapidly is a cause for concern, but the upside is theres some pretty smart people out there trying to figure out why this denialist gibberish is so seductive. Thus;- http://environment.yale.edu/climate-communication/files/Climate-Beliefs-November-2013.pdf I say upside because the academic literature on conspiracy theory is rather light, and tends to be fairly psychoanalytical or (post) structuralist in my experience (Although I havent actually READ much of the literature since the early 2000s when I was doing my thesis on neo-nazi movements). So having a more analytical group looking over the phenomena is welcoming if not just for teasing out some hard data to gently caress around with and throw a different light on it all.
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Jan 20, 2014 17:07
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