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Vargo posted:Except that Sully and Mike do accomplish their dreams, and we went into the movie knowing that they do? (Well, Sully does, anyway. Mike kinda does.) They just fail in their initial plan, and are then shown in the credits bootstrapping in and making their way up from the mail room after flunking out of college, which I thought was insanely stupid. They didn't flunk out, they were expelled after doing something that showed their talent as a team and set them up for where you see them in Monsters Inc. And they explicitly said they they do internal auditions for new scarers, so reading that as "bootstraps from the mail room" as opposed to "if things don't work out the way you want, find a different path" is reaching a bit. I mean you're entitled to your opinion and all, just make sure you have it right. axleblaze posted:Despicable Me 2 made a poo poo ton of money (way more than MU I believe) and wasn't hated by critics and that's usually enough to get a nomination. If Disney didn't have a stronger film, MU would have gotten nominated but it they have Frozen so they won't feel snubbed and Croods is there so Dreamworks won't feel snubbed. Really it all makes sense as to why stuff was nominated. Aren't Disney and Pixar still generally considered separate entities, though? Like Tangled / Frozen are "Disney movies" but Brave / MU are "Pixar movies"? SomeJazzyRat posted:Despite the critical success and the relative box office success of TPatF, the 'under performance' has made it into corporate black spot on their record. Mmmhmm 
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Jan 18, 2014 05:02
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Jay Dub posted:The Nut Job ends with every single character doing the Gangnam Style dance with an animated Psy over the end credits. The whole goddamn song. So on a scale of Bee movie to Toy story, how bad was the movie.
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Jan 18, 2014 05:15
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Pixeltendo posted:So on a scale of Bee movie to Toy story, how bad was the movie. What if it's worse than Bee Movie? 
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Jan 18, 2014 05:21
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LaughMyselfTo posted:What if it's worse than Bee Movie? Yeah, the rabbit hole of terrible animation goes way deeper than Bee Movie. Think Foodfight or Delgo. That said, I think it would take considerable effort to be worse than Bee Movie.
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Jan 18, 2014 05:23
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LaughMyselfTo posted:What if it's worse than Bee Movie? I was under the impression that it was only about as bad as "Free Birds" (a movie where the idea that not only does Chuck-E-Cheese deliver pizza but that any sane animal would voluntarily eat it in a non-kid's birthday party context was the most bonkers plot point in a movie overloaded with them) but suddenly I don't know...
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Jan 18, 2014 05:28
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LaughMyselfTo posted:What if it's worse than Bee Movie? It's not. I wish it were, but it's not. On a scale of Bee Movie to Toy Story, The Nut Job is an Open Season 2. ...or something.
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Jan 18, 2014 05:38
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raditts posted:Aren't Disney and Pixar still generally considered separate entities, though? Like Tangled / Frozen are "Disney movies" but Brave / MU are "Pixar movies"? Movies made after the Disney buyout (Cars onward) are labelled as Disney/Pixar but yeah the main Walt Disney studio is separate from the Pixar studio.
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Jan 18, 2014 08:19
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Nut Job nonsense aside,since the "Summer Wars" and "Wolf Children" anime films were discussed earlier in this thread, I don't mind saying that "Wolf Children" hit like a laser-guided missile designed to explode my heart. Oh my God. It has loving destroyed me. poo poo. So emotions right now. Films are always a subjective experience, and of course some viewers had a lukewarm reception to it, but my dissenting opinion is "Wolf Children" hit extremely close to home a number of times, and was a great experience for it. The setting is sort of fairytale/magical realism in modern rural Japan, but even as someone who grew up thousands of miles away from there, the secluded farming community aspect -- right down to the bartering, opinionated neighbors and surly-but-knowledgeable old man -- is pitch-perfect if you're familiar with that kind of environment. The aesthetic is great. Me being obsessed with wolves as a child and involved with conservation as an adult compounded the effect, as well as being able to see both myself and several relatives in the characters (OMG YUKI, I literally collected weird animal parts as a child) broke my heart into pieces. In a good way. Fortunately I don't have any children right now, or I might not have survived to type as much as I have. It's also a coming-of-age story that might resonate particularly well with girls, or if you just want to see a film about being part of a family and all the crazy poo poo that entails. You'll either be entertained for two hours or messed up real hard depending on your emotional investment, though I'm probably in the minority for identifying with so many thematic and visual elements, right down to the drat storm warnings and power outages. I guess what I'm saying is, if you're remotely interested, rent it on Amazon's streaming service and have no regrets.
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Jan 18, 2014 10:16
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Crisco Kid posted:Nut Job nonsense aside,since the "Summer Wars" and "Wolf Children" anime films were discussed earlier in this thread, I don't mind saying that "Wolf Children" hit like a laser-guided missile designed to explode my heart. Oh my God. It has loving destroyed me. poo poo. So emotions right now. Oh yeah, great movie. Takes a while to get properly going, which seems to be a bit of a recurring issue for Hosoda, but it really drags you in once it does. Took my parents to see it when it got a UK release, and they loved it. The unusual way it used the werewolf metaphor was also pretty cool - it's frequently used as a parallel for puberty, with alien urges and hair in inconvenient places, but here it's the opposite way round. Being a werewolf represents the infinite possibilities of childhood, before you settle down and find your own path.
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Jan 18, 2014 21:47
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So my I watched Beauty and the Beast last night for the first time in like fifteen years. I had mixed feelings going into it. it's never been my favorite Disney film; that would be either Hunchback or Aladdin, depending on what I ate for breakfast that morning. I remember thinking that a lot of the songs were trite and not really caring about Belle as a protagonist. Watching it again after being exposed to a lot of other great animated musicals as well as maturing somewhat in my view of the medium since I was a teenager, I came away from it with a much higher opinion. Belle still isn't really my favorite Disney character but I sort of view The Beast as more of the protagonist, since he's the one whose more transformed by his interactions with Belle. Belle at the start of the film is pretty much the same character as at the end except with more friends, while the Beast completely reinvents himself. It's interesting comparing him to Quasimodo, a character whose imprisonment is not self-imposed out of shame and self-hatred. With Quasi, his outer appearance serves as a barrier between the world around him and his inner personality, whereas Beast's exterior changes to match his interior. Quasi is almost a damsel-in-distress in his own right whose Prince Charming is his own self-actualization, while Beast basically deserves to be where he is for being a bad person. I also never appreciated how subtly he's acted and animated as well. I always remembered the Beast as being just a total jerk for no reason up until he saves Belle from the wolves, but on rewatching it the film spends a lot of the first half with him trying to do right but failing utterly because of his total lack of social skills and self-loathing. There are a lot of really clever bits in his animation that you only catch for a second. My favorite is when he's about to show Belle his library, and just before he leads her in I swear he bites his lower lip like a little kid thinking "oh boy oh boy oh boy I hope she likes it!" The music is also a lot better than I remember it being. It seems a lot more operatic than any other Disney Renaissance film I can think of, where a lot of the songs are sung by an entire cast instead of one or two characters. In that way it makes some of the weaker songs (mainly "Something There") stand out more. It's also the first time I've seen the special edition with "Human Again". The only other special edition that I can remember that re-inserts an entire song like that is the Lion Kind SE and "Morning Report", a song that I actually really hate for some reason. But "Human Again" is really great and when taken along with "Belle", "Gaston" and "Be Our Guest" it really nails down the film's musical style as firmly as, say, Hercules' Motown songs. The animation is beautiful, of course, though Belle always feels kind of, I don't know, wooden in her expressions, like maybe Disney was still trying to get away from the classic Disney Princess model of austere beauty, which they really just absolutely nailed when Aladdin came out, but hadn't quite figured it out yet. But the whole of the castle's staff is a triumph of comedic animation, and the way that Gaston can go from being a total joke to a genuine threat within the same scene is also really impressive. I'm thinking that maybe I should take a look at Pocahontas now, since I never saw it back when it came out from a lack of interest. I did the same with Mulan and was hugely surprised when I first watched it a couple years ago.
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Jan 23, 2014 17:41
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Everyone hates "Morning Report" and Pocahontas is actually very stiff and weird (I watched it just the other day while housecleaning). However, the rest of your assessment fits into my experience with the film. I get annoyed when people go herp-derp Stockholm Syndrome too, since it's all about the Beast changing. Belle can't fall in love until she's freed and sees that his affection was deep and genuine, that's kind of the entire loving point.
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Jan 23, 2014 17:48
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Pick posted:Everyone hates "Morning Report" and Pocahontas is actually very stiff and weird (I watched it just the other day while housecleaning). However, the rest of your assessment fits into my experience with the film. I get annoyed when people go herp-derp Stockholm Syndrome too, since it's all about the Beast changing. Belle can't fall in love until she's freed and sees that his affection was deep and genuine, that's kind of the entire loving point. Oh, and another thing about BatB: according to Lumiere, they've been under the Enchantress's curse for 10 years, and since the curse stipulates that it has to be broken before the Beast's 21st birthday, it means she cursed the guy when he was 11 years old. Like, I get that he was being a dick but that Enchantress was kind of maybe overreacting a little bit!
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Jan 23, 2014 17:53
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Morning Report isn't just bad because it totally changes that scene. It's a bad loving song in general. Like wow Zazu did not need a song and even Simba's part is done terribly. I'm glad the DVD let me pick a version of the movie without it cause christ. The Pocohontas song goes beyond bad to just bewildering really. It probably wouldn't be a bad song if they got someone who could actually sing. Human Again was actually a pretty good song but it didn't really fit in the movie and I don't like how they "cleaned up" the whole castle.
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Jan 23, 2014 17:56
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Strange Matter posted:Oh, and another thing about BatB: according to Lumiere, they've been under the Enchantress's curse for 10 years, and since the curse stipulates that it has to be broken before the Beast's 21st birthday, it means she cursed the guy when he was 11 years old. Like, I get that he was being a dick but that Enchantress was kind of maybe overreacting a little bit! That's fairies for you. Though considering the scenario in which she cursed him for - refusing shelter to a beggar during a blizzard. If she wasn't an Enchantress but a normal beggar, it's very likely she would've froze to death.
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Jan 23, 2014 18:08
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Strange Matter posted:Oh, and another thing about BatB: according to Lumiere, they've been under the Enchantress's curse for 10 years, and since the curse stipulates that it has to be broken before the Beast's 21st birthday, it means she cursed the guy when he was 11 years old. Like, I get that he was being a dick but that Enchantress was kind of maybe overreacting a little bit! I love Beauty and the Beast but the timeline is completely hosed up and makes no sense, especially if you dare to factor in the sequel.
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Jan 23, 2014 18:13
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Pocahontas is one of Disney's weaker outputs, but it's worth watching at least once for the animation. The beautiful use of colours and unique art style make it look fantastic. It's a bit like Sleeping Beauty in that regard: very pretty to look at but sorely lacking as an actual film.
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Jan 23, 2014 19:14
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Pick posted:I love Beauty and the Beast but the timeline is completely hosed up and makes no sense, especially if you dare to factor in the sequel. Also, the curse has been going on for ten years, but Chip acts about six. So has he been six for ten years, or did he, uh, start as a teacup?
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Jan 23, 2014 19:23
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YggiDee posted:Also, the curse has been going on for ten years, but Chip acts about six. So has he been six for ten years, or did he, uh, start as a teacup? I think they all just stopped aging since they were turned into household items.
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Jan 23, 2014 19:25
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The Nut Job 2.
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Jan 23, 2014 20:48
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I think it has potential.
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Jan 23, 2014 21:19
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All together now...
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Jan 23, 2014 21:22
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How'd you guess the content of my suicide note?
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Jan 23, 2014 21:22
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Strange Matter posted:[Beauty and the Beast] I agree completely with you on Beauty and the Beast. I actually saw it for my first time I think last year. The only thing I have trouble with is the dance scene, that has aged horribly and to me it ruins an otherwise very well executed scene. I watched Mulan a long time ago and it's probably one of my favorite Disney films and a complete surprise. I'm unsure on the timeline of release, but I always filed it under the Pocahontas header. Being very girlish and not very impressive. Watching it with my sister and brother however I found the movie to be very funny with excellent music and a well executed story with a strong lead.
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Jan 23, 2014 21:56
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Darth TNT posted:I agree completely with you on Beauty and the Beast. I actually saw it for my first time I think last year. The only thing I have trouble with is the dance scene, that has aged horribly and to me it ruins an otherwise very well executed scene. It also lacks a musical villain, which is why nobody remembers the Hun general compared with Gaston, Scar or Jafar (counting the reprise of "Prince Ali"). I think that's what I appreciate most about Beauty and the Beast, that it has lots of numbers and they're spread throughout the film. It even has a musical number near the end, which I always appreciate, and it's a villain song too!
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Jan 24, 2014 01:07
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Strange Matter posted:My only problem with Mulan is that its relative lack of musical numbers. It front loads them pretty heavily and they vanish completely right around the halfway mark. They're all very good songs, especially "I'll Make a Man Out of You", but there are only four of them, compared with I think eight in BatB and Hunchback and seven in Aladdin. I love Mulan but it's a definite tipping point where Disney was abandoning the animated musical. I actually like that because the songs end at the exact point that they see the type of enemy It may have benefited from having a song at the end when she returns home, but at the same time stuff gets wrapped up so fast that there's not really room for it (and there's not really a song that works well as a reprise except I guess " Honor to us All" but even then it's kind of iffy). computer parts fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Jan 24, 2014 |
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Jan 24, 2014 01:29
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Strange Matter posted:My only problem with Mulan is that its relative lack of musical numbers. It front loads them pretty heavily and they vanish completely right around the halfway mark. They're all very good songs, especially "I'll Make a Man Out of You", but there are only four of them, compared with I think eight in BatB and Hunchback and seven in Aladdin. I love Mulan but it's a definite tipping point where Disney was abandoning the animated musical. Honestly, lot of Disney films tend to do this - just earlier ones (Cinderella, Dumbo) tend to be short enough that you don't really notice. I have to agree it wouldn't had been appropriate to continue the songs in Mulan until the very end. In fact, I love how a "A girl worth fighting for" ends abruptly when they enter the village - it shows how unexpected and devastating the scene is.
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Jan 24, 2014 02:21
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Pick posted:I love Beauty and the Beast but the timeline is completely hosed up and makes no sense, especially if you dare to factor in the sequel. Taken at face value it also means that the teacup children never aged for some reason.
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Jan 24, 2014 03:28
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computer parts posted:I actually like that because the songs end at the exact point that they see the type of enemy There is the "Make a man out of you" reprise when they infiltrate the palace but it's really short.
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Jan 24, 2014 06:36
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My main problem with Mulan is that for a film about war, it seems rather small scale. There is one big moment where the Huns come charging down the mountain but for the most part, the Chinese army feels like it consists of 10 people (I know they are just reinforcements, but still...). And Mushu is rather distracting.
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Jan 24, 2014 08:06
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I think Beauty and the Beast is a good film, but it's not very well written considering they had the original story and the Cocteau film to get inspiration from. There's just not much depth in anyone, even if Belle fares well. That's besides the plot holes. One major flaw is having Gaston be such an obnoxious and one-dimensional character. Cocteau not only made Avenant (Gaston's equivalent) somewhat likable, but played up the duality by having the same actor play both Avenant and the Beast. I think they were trying to hard to make Gaston unlikable since there wouldn't really be much of a villain otherwise. The Lion King is a model example of how to make animation literate with a fantastic script.
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Jan 24, 2014 19:04
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Disney villains generally come in two flavors: Jealous & Scheming (Scar, Jafar, Ursula) Arrogant & Small Minded (Gaston, Frollo, Clayton) They don't really do Compassionate very often.
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Jan 24, 2014 19:12
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Frollo is another example of a character who was a lot more likeable in the original version, though his transformation into a villain was done a lot better than Gastons. I think it's because he's so involved in the storyline. We get a much closer look at his motivations than we do for most Disney villains and his relationship to the other main characters is both clearly defined and integral to the plot structure. Hunchback wouldn't work as a film without him. By contrast, Gaston really doesn't do much for most of his film. The story's focus lies on the relationship between Belle and the Beast, so he mostly provides a bit of additional comedic relief. Only near the end does he become a credible threat so the audience can have a dramatic finale. Even then the most important moment isn't Gaston's defeat, but Belle declaring her love for the beast. It's interesting to compare Gaston's death with Frollo's. Conceptually they're both very close, villains falling from a high building after being rejected by the main character, but their relative importance to the narrative is vastly different. Frollo's defeat is an important part of Quasimodo's character development as it shows him finally standing up for himself and rejecting his former master's teachings. Gaston's death feels more like an afterthought because he doesn't carry the same weight as a villain. Well, that and Gaston didn't get to sing Hellfire.
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Jan 24, 2014 19:47
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Strange Matter posted:Disney villains generally come in two flavors: Who are some good compassionate villains?
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Jan 24, 2014 20:10
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Drifter posted:Who are some good compassionate villains? Pretty much everyone in Lilo and Stitch is redeemable. Gantu falls into the Arrogant & Small Minded category, but Bubbles, the Universal Ruler, and even Jumba all have their good points, and the first two are only villains of circumstance.
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Jan 24, 2014 20:16
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Drifter posted:Who are some good compassionate villains? Stinky Pete, Carles Muntz
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Jan 24, 2014 20:22
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Ah yes. I was really surprised by how good Lilo and Stitch was when I finally got around to seeing it. I had no idea who stinky pete and the other guy was though.
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Jan 24, 2014 21:22
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Drifter posted:Ah yes. I was really surprised by how good Lilo and Stitch was when I finally got around to seeing it. Toy Story 2 and Up, respectively.
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Jan 24, 2014 21:28
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Yoshifan823 posted:Pretty much everyone in Lilo and Stitch is redeemable. Gantu falls into the Arrogant & Small Minded category, but Bubbles, the Universal Ruler, and even Jumba all have their good points, and the first two are only villains of circumstance. Gantu went a little too far but I don't disagree with him that much, I would say Bubbles and the Universal Ruler are solidly not villains though. If anything the compassionate villain is Stitch.
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Jan 24, 2014 22:00
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Thwomp posted:Stinky Pete, Carles Muntz Adding to that, the food critic from Ratatouille?
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Jan 24, 2014 22:26
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Darth TNT posted:Adding to that, the food critic from Ratatouille? I wouldn't call him a villain at all. The villain would be that tiny, jealous chef.
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Jan 24, 2014 22:37
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