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Disagree, Flint is plainly a loving basket case. When Gates tries to shock him out of his obsession by telling him he's going to take the Ranger (when he could just as well have gone to the crew like the new quartermaster did) Flint doubles down and KILLS him. Being sorry AFTERWORDS means nothing, that's just him trying to rationalize his actions. I really felt like Flint being an unstable dude with a messiah complex was obvious from the last couple episodes but this one went and hammered it home. VVV: That is a good point and it fits with earlier events. WarLocke fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Mar 16, 2014 |
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Mar 16, 2014 01:00
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I felt like Flint was going to let Gates go until he mentioned going to Boston with the Barlow woman, then Flint's ego took over and couldn't allow the humiliation of letting civilization "win."
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Mar 16, 2014 01:08
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Holy poo poo that was so god drat good.
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Mar 16, 2014 02:41
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I am glad they made Flint less likeable, in Treasure Island he is remembered as a psychotic monster so this fits much better compared to the first several episodes.
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Mar 16, 2014 03:43
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Well this show was a pretty slow burn compared to what I was expecting but I liked just about all of it and then that loving battle. The moment those gun port doors opened up was just 
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Mar 16, 2014 05:29
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^^^ this episode, goddamn. The leadup to the battle scene was amazing. Dufresne pulling the gun, Flynt failing to light the cannon, the old cook saving Silver, then him lighting off the cannon. As soon as the man-o-war opened the ports  . That was loving excellent. It was also great that you could see the Ranger getting shredded. And dat cliffhangar, oh my.
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Mar 16, 2014 05:44
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KatWithHands posted:I don't know why, but after Dufresne went all crazy on that dude's neck, I just immediately stopped liking him. At the time, I was super hype about it, because I did NOT see that coming, and was looking forward to him becoming a more badass character gradually. Instead, he kills one dude and turns into a macho confident douchebag character who is completely unconvincing given the instant turnaround time. The finale kind of exacerbated that, because I was so conflicted about who to back. Flint was a sack of poo poo for what he did to Gates, but still somewhat sympathetic because he really was sorry and has, in his mind at least, been doing things for the crew's sake. But Dufresne is actually more concerned about the crew's welfare and obeying the pirate code, and yet he was going to be a sack of poo poo by (I assume) leaving The Ranger to deal with those Spanish pirates alone. In fact, the number of characters there are to actually root for has been dwindling rapidly, because everyone is devolving into a 'gently caress you, got mine' sack of poo poo. Gates and Billy were the most sympathetic of the entire cast, I think, with only a few hanging with them in the genuine, 'I want good things for this character' sense. I felt like he became like that because of Billy's death. He clearly admired him after the battle and he knew about the letter. Knowing that Billy probably got shanked a thrown overboard by Flint must have simply broken him. For further proof just look at how the first thing he does when he gets back to land is shave his hair to look like Billy (that initiation thing was probably just an excuse) and help plan a conspiracy to kill Flint. 
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Mar 16, 2014 06:03
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Goddamn, that broadside.
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Mar 16, 2014 06:10
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Me, not knowing much about naval warfare in this period: "100 guns? Pffft that doesn't sound like much." *Manowar opens its ports*  Oh. Oh god.
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Mar 16, 2014 06:16
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Impressive no doubt, playing Assassins Creed: Black Flag atm. capturing man o' wars is a highlight. Very few in that era had 100 guns, usually around 65 i read somewhere. Blackbeard had 40 at his most baddass. Been researching these ships a lot recently for a possible sleeve tattoo, engineering masterpieces everyone of them.
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Mar 16, 2014 06:26
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Well they certainly did a great job making Flint out to be a piece of poo poo. I guess that's accurate to what pirates were really like right?
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Mar 16, 2014 06:37
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Roman Reigns posted:Me, not knowing much about naval warfare in this period: "100 guns? Pffft that doesn't sound like much." Yeah once you saw that wall of guns appear you suddenly realize why they all treated the Manowar as such a dangerous enemy. Incredible. Flint WAS right though, it was the wrong time for a mutiny and in the end it got a lot of them killed, although I'm not sure how well their original plan would've worked. Hitting the front and back of the ship would do what exactly? Surely it could still turn around and blow up both ships in an instant?
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Mar 16, 2014 06:41
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Hitting from the back lets the cannonballs go the length of the ship instead of just the small width if they hit from the side.
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Mar 16, 2014 06:45
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^^^ also this CODChimera posted:Yeah once you saw that wall of guns appear you suddenly realize why they all treated the Manowar as such a dangerous enemy. Incredible. I'm no expert but I imagine the idea is that you do enough damage to the crew and cannon bays before they can come about to reduce their effectiveness. If you get lucky you hit a powder magazine and blow the gently caress out of their stores. It looked like they hit some powder in the initial volley too, just not enough to really damage the ship. Edit: I just watched that scene again during the encore and Jesus. Once the man of war starts firing it just keeps going and going. Saganlives fucked around with this message at 06:51 on Mar 16, 2014 |
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Mar 16, 2014 06:47
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^^^CODChimera posted:Yeah once you saw that wall of guns appear you suddenly realize why they all treated the Manowar as such a dangerous enemy. Incredible. The bow and stern of the ships were the weakest and least armed sections, if they got penetration through the hull, the shot would go through the decks hitting everything in it's path. I'm a carpenter, and the first thought i had was how long it would take to fix all that damage. Ships carpenter would be a bastard of a job. Rocksicles fucked around with this message at 07:00 on Mar 16, 2014 |
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Mar 16, 2014 06:56
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In navel combat of the time the two weakest points in any ship were the masts and the rudder. The masts provide propulsion and the rudder provides steering and if you knocked out either then you effectively crippled the ship and could then pick it apart without allowing them to bring their guns to bear effectively. The plan looks to have been to distract the Spanish ship long enough for Flints ship to set up a broadside to knock out the rudder which was why Flint was so adamant about waiting till the other ship was 300 yards away before firing. thus the mutiny came at the worst possible time and by the time they actually attacked their shots either missed or landed ineffectively (aside from a luck magazine detonation)
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Mar 16, 2014 07:11
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muscles like this? posted:Hitting from the back lets the cannonballs go the length of the ship instead of just the small width if they hit from the side. The film Master and Commander explained it. Firing along the stern or bow allows the attacking ship to rake the whole length of the defending ship causing maximum destruction and it gives the attacking ship the benefit of a full broadside from port or starboard while the defending ship can only respond with what few, if any, guns it has on its bow or stern. It was considered an ideal firing position during the age of sail and something captains strived for in combat. Having both pirate ships firing from this position was the best possible attack they could accomplish and it still wasn't enough to take on a triple decker manowar. Gates was utimately proved to have been right, that it was insane to take the manowar.
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Mar 16, 2014 07:18
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Hey guys, it's awesome to come in this thread and keep reading your thoughts on the show. I work on it and it is extremely gratifying to see how much you like it! I've worked on much bigger things but this is the most fun I've had in ages AND the first thing I've done in a long time that people actually liked. We don't usually get to work on our dream jobs - in fact I did get a "dream job" of mine a couple of years ago that ended up being terrible - and Black Sails was a rare "safety net" gig that I took when another, more high profile thing failed to materialize for me. At first I thought I was slumming it but I've got to say, even with the smaller audience (and other attendant things that go along with a smaller audience) that watches because it's on Starz instead of HBO or AMC or FX or whatever... I'm happier with my job than I've been in years. And this thread is a real part of that joy for me. So thanks!
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Mar 16, 2014 07:41
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Five Cent Deposit posted:Hey guys, it's awesome to come in this thread and keep reading your thoughts on the show. I work on it and it is extremely gratifying to see how much you like it! I've worked on much bigger things but this is the most fun I've had in ages AND the first thing I've done I a long time that people actually liked. We don't usually get to work on our dream jobs - in fact I did get a "dream job" of mine a couple of years ago that ended up being terrible - and Black Sails was a rare "safety net" gig that I took when another, more high profile thing failed to materialize for me. At first I thought I was slumming it but I've got to say, even with the smaller audience (and other attendant things that go along with a smaller audience) that watches because it's on Starz instead of HBO or AMC or FX or whatever... I'm happier with my job than I've been in years. And this thread is a real part of that joy for me. So thanks! If you don't mind me asking, what do you do? I enjoy the show quite a bit, and it's well crafted. Though I have other aspirations career wise, I love film and I'm always interested to hear about the process behind the scenes.
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Mar 16, 2014 07:45
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Rocksicles posted:Blackbeard had 40 at his most baddass. That's just the number of single-shots he kept in his coat.  Five Cent Deposit posted:Hey guys, it's awesome to come in this thread and keep reading your thoughts on the show. I work on it and it is extremely gratifying to see how much you like it! I've worked on much bigger things but this is the most fun I've had in ages AND the first thing I've done in a long time that people actually liked. We don't usually get to work on our dream jobs - in fact I did get a "dream job" of mine a couple of years ago that ended up being terrible - and Black Sails was a rare "safety net" gig that I took when another, more high profile thing failed to materialize for me. At first I thought I was slumming it but I've got to say, even with the smaller audience (and other attendant things that go along with a smaller audience) that watches because it's on Starz instead of HBO or AMC or FX or whatever... I'm happier with my job than I've been in years. And this thread is a real part of that joy for me. So thanks! Your show owns and congratulations on the gig! Really can't wait for next season, but a part of me died with Gates. Such a great loving character. I do hold out hope that Billy is around, but goddamn. Gates, man. 
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Mar 16, 2014 07:47
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Ahh ok, thanks for the explanations. I wonder if they could've taken it then. If the crew were all focused and got that initial volley off together then maybe...
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Mar 16, 2014 08:46
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CODChimera posted:Ahh ok, thanks for the explanations. The hesitation certainly did not do them any favors. I also wonder, since the Walrus and the Ranger are much lighter than the manowar, historically how easy/hard would it have been for pirate ships to stay away from the broadsides, given where they started the engagement from?
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Mar 16, 2014 08:53
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Caufman posted:The hesitation certainly did not do them any favors. I also wonder, since the Walrus and the Ranger are much lighter than the manowar, historically how easy/hard would it have been for pirate ships to stay away from the broadsides, given where they started the engagement from? It would depend on the wind, mostly. Most pirate ships were sloops and other small craft specifically for a speed and manoeuvring advantage though. I think this was a specific circumstance but most naval battles would involve a lot of pursuit, so likely you would just catch up to your target and get up beside them to open up with your deck guns. At least if you were a pirate. Military engagement would probably be a lot of circling and trying to get your enemy into a bad wind while you had a good one. This is just my speculation though, I don't actually know much despite a latent interest. I should find some books to read on the subject.
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Mar 16, 2014 09:15
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speed vs firepower i guess. edit: beaten
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Mar 16, 2014 09:20
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This was a pretty good episode.
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Mar 16, 2014 09:54
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Caufman posted:The hesitation certainly did not do them any favors. I also wonder, since the Walrus and the Ranger are much lighter than the manowar, historically how easy/hard would it have been for pirate ships to stay away from the broadsides, given where they started the engagement from? They didn't ever take on military ships if they could possibly help it. They attacked merchants. Who don't have cannon.
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Mar 16, 2014 11:14
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This show was much better than I thought it would be. Very good naval combat scenes, and the politicking is more interesting than I would have guessed.
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Mar 16, 2014 11:16
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Kyle Hyde posted:I'm no expert but I imagine the idea is that you do enough damage to the crew and cannon bays before they can come about to reduce their effectiveness. Actually sinking a ship at this period is pretty rare short of hitting the magazine, the whole point of combat was to send wooden shards into the crew to kill them and force a surrender. You started seeing heavier and slower shot since that created larger splinters to kill the crew with. Cannon were not generally all of one size either so it was pretty much a pain in the rear end to make sure you stayed supplied with the correct shot for each diameter; most of the time cannon that wasn't the right size got recycled if it was bronze or tossed to land forts if it was iron.
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Mar 16, 2014 12:49
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Party Plane Jones posted:Actually sinking a ship at this period is pretty rare short of hitting the magazine, the whole point of combat was to send wooden shards into the crew to kill them and force a surrender. You started seeing heavier and slower shot since that created larger splinters to kill the crew with. Huh. I just, I did not realize just how suicidal that plan really was, with or without the mutiny. I mean, it's a big ship, and those are relatively small balls of lead. Even if they got a dozen shots into the man o' war before it came around, would it really be enough to stop the ship from turning in place and firing that ridiculous broadside? There must be way too many trained sailors on a big ship like that to really hope they could send them into enough disarray that they wouldn't be able to turn and fire. It seems like their only hope to survive was for that initial volley to take out the rudder. (The shot of the side of the ship coming around and all those gun ports opening up was great, by the way. I had no idea just how badly they were outclassed until you see their literal wall of guns.) Also, why was Vane convinced Jack had stolen the pearls from the first episode? I must have missed a thread - I marathoned a lot of this series and had to take some work calls periodically.
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Mar 16, 2014 13:19
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I'm really confused about the ending. Please explain it to me. How did the Spanish Manowar not destroy/kill/capture all of the pirates? The treasure ship was the one that got wrecked the end, what was that other ship that was still in the bay?
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Mar 16, 2014 14:28
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I love how everyone in the show is afraid of England but the Spanish clearly don't gently caress around either
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Mar 16, 2014 14:40
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DarkCrawler posted:I love how everyone in the show is afraid of England but the Spanish clearly don't gently caress around either Except that one time in the 1580's when the Spanish armada tried invading England, and Elizabeth I gave them what for.
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Mar 16, 2014 14:43
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Boris Galerkin posted:I'm really confused about the ending. Please explain it to me. They were more concerned with finding the galleon after losing it in the storm than anything else, so once the Walrus and the Ranger were taken out of the fight the man o' war just sailed off to find the galleon rather than sticking around to capture or scuttle the pirates which would have taken quite a bit of time. The ship anchored in the bay was the man o' war, having found the galleon.
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Mar 16, 2014 14:45
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DarkCrawler posted:I love how everyone in the show is afraid of England but the Spanish clearly don't gently caress around either In the setting Spain is in sharp decline from being the world superpower.
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Mar 16, 2014 14:48
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Phenotype posted:It seems like their only hope to survive was for that initial volley to take out the rudder. There's a couple ways at killing a much larger ship than yourself (because it has a much higher crew compliment and total gun tonnage), since boarding isn't really an option due to the size of the crew. A lot depended on the comparative speed of your ship versus who you were facing. 1)You aim for the masts, because with each mast taken down it either slows/stops the ship or causes the mast to be lodged against the side of the ship. Any time a main mast goes down that ship is pretty much hosed because you can almost anchor at their stern and sink shots all day. 2)You can keep jockeying for position against the bow or stern because the bow would only have a couple pursuit guns and the stern has no real armament, but you're going to be facing broadsides still unless you outnumber them significantly in ship number that you can take a couple broadsides per ship. 3)If you hit the rudder it disables the most effective means of steering but you can still (through much difficulty) steer by manipulating the sails. You're a crippled ship but nowhere near as bad as it would be should the mainsail go down. 4) Fire. Fireships are unreliable as all hell but if you could catch a ship at anchor in a location where they'd be unable to maneuver well or has poor visibility you'd probably damage it significantly.
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Mar 16, 2014 14:48
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Flatscan posted:They were more concerned with finding the galleon after losing it in the storm than anything else, so once the Walrus and the Ranger were taken out of the fight the man o' war just sailed off to find the galleon rather than sticking around to capture or scuttle the pirates which would have taken quite a bit of time. The ship anchored in the bay was the man o' war, having found the galleon. So the Spanish ship just fired on both of the pirate ships, and then just left them alone so that they could drift and washup onto the shore of that same island?
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Mar 16, 2014 14:51
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Boris Galerkin posted:So the Spanish ship just fired on both of the pirate ships, and then just left them alone so that they could drift and washup onto the shore of that same island? Yes because we want a season 2.
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Mar 16, 2014 14:58
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Boris Galerkin posted:I'm really confused about the ending. Please explain it to me. The urca de lima ran aground the night before.The spanish man-o-war was there investigating what happened to the ship .It makes sense that when the entire production of peruvian mines for a year dissapears , you take your best crew and ship and put it out there.Naval combat happens fucks both ships up and keeps looking for the Urca. Gonz posted:Except that one time in the 1580's when the Spanish armada tried invading England, and Elizabeth I gave them what for. Alchenar posted:In the setting Spain is in sharp decline from being the world superpower.
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Mar 16, 2014 15:18
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Boris Galerkin posted:So the Spanish ship just fired on both of the pirate ships, and then just left them alone so that they could drift and washup onto the shore of that same island? I don't think the man o' war knew where the Urca was, just that it had missed a supply stop. Although now that they've found it, you'd think they'll reinforce the poo poo out of the place since they know the pirates might wash up nearby.
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Mar 16, 2014 15:42
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Man what a brutal finale all around. Besides the money shot of the man 'o war's guns opening up, I really liked the destruction montage during its volleys, and how long it focused on just the fact that the ship was being torn to shreds. It really drove home how absolutely loving terrifying it would be to face that, and how hopeless their situation suddenly became. Can't wait for season 2, although it was sad to see the quartermaster (inevitably) go out like he did by Flint's hand Speaking of assholes, let's not forget that Vane took over the fort that's guarding the entire island and forced his way into the council under threat of blowing up literally everyone's poo poo. I'm curious to see if my Max = (history spoiler) Mary Read guess from earlier in the season comes true during season 2. They've all but set up the pseudo love triangle between her, Jack, and Anne, and Jack is now separated from Vane and is presumably going to need good men for his new crew. To be fair I have no idea how much of that is actual history, how much is made up/romanticized, and how much of it, if any, the show is going to portray. drat cliffhanger ending making us wait a year to find out what happens  At least season 2's already guaranteed and we don't have to have any cancellation worries while we wait.
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Mar 16, 2014 15:44
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