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Lovechop posted:Old Daario's looks and mannerisms were perfect because every girl I knew was like "oh, that guy is so hot" and I just thought "what? that dude seems like a massive dickhead." That's what Daario is, women want to gently caress him and men think he's a prick. Exactly; as much as I hated him, old Daario could only have been better if he had blue hair and a golden moustache.
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Mar 20, 2014 20:41
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Max posted:I wonder if the rise of internet discussion kind of ruined it for GRRM as well. A lot of the good fan theories are based on solid evidence and allusions that may not have been picked up by that many people if so many people weren't looking at the book with a magnifying glass and then posting about it online. I can see him relishing the idea of revealing this stuff and then being bummed out when a lot of people sussed out the information. I've seen GRRM talk about this in interviews, where in the past maybe 1 in 100 readers would notice stuff like Renly being gay nowadays because of the internet as soon as one person figures it out everyone does. He didn't seem too annoyed with it, but he did mention it took away the specialness of finding those little details when you can just open up a wiki and browse them.
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Mar 20, 2014 20:41
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Max posted:I wonder if the rise of internet discussion kind of ruined it for GRRM as well. A lot of the good fan theories are based on solid evidence and allusions that may not have been picked up by that many people if so many people weren't looking at the book with a magnifying glass and then posting about it online. I can see him relishing the idea of revealing this stuff and then being bummed out when a lot of people sussed out the information. There are definitely a couple of things that have been discussed so much that no outcome would satisfy the readers, I.e. Jon's parentage. Regardless who his mother will be, people will either call it predictable or random.
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Mar 20, 2014 20:55
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Max posted:I wonder if the rise of internet discussion kind of ruined it for GRRM as well. A lot of the good fan theories are based on solid evidence and allusions that may not have been picked up by that many people if so many people weren't looking at the book with a magnifying glass and then posting about it online. I can see him relishing the idea of revealing this stuff and then being bummed out when a lot of people sussed out the information. I've done a little writing, and I can definitely say that when people predict something you're going to do and talk about it before you do it, the urge to change it just to show them up does exist. It's not really a spite thing, but the satisfaction of surprising readers (in a good way) and revealing how deep your clever plans go is one of the fun parts of writing and getting figured out early just makes you feel like you did a clumsy job. In general though it's good for a writer to resist that urge. An author that's writing in reaction to their fans is piercing suspension of disbelief and the 4th wall in a big way. Characters are really just finger-puppets for the author anyway, but making it that blatant will cause the story to break down (I'm looking at you, Andrew Hussie). If readers predict a twist, maybe write your next story or series in a different way to subvert expectations, but don't risk wrecking your current story. I'd love to find out Jon's dead, but if it turned out he'd done it only because everyone figured out the R + L = J thing and he was ticked then it'd just feel shallow and petty.
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Mar 20, 2014 20:58
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In addition to the internet allowing readers to learn every last detail and theory the fact that there has been so much time between books for fans to do multiple re-reads shines a lot of light on what would otherwise be subtle details.
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Mar 20, 2014 21:21
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All this "I need to surprise the readers!" Probably had a hand to play in introducing Aegon into the story. Whether or not he's the "real" Aegon, he's a chess piece few could have anticipated (I know there was Internet discussion about him beforehand but still) and as others have pointed out, it felt kinda cheap. The only surprise I will tolerate is that Stannis truly is Azor Ahai, and the Rightful King of Westeros
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Mar 20, 2014 22:36
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Mike N Eich posted:The only surprise I will tolerate is that Stannis truly is [...] the Rightful King of Westeros There's nothing surprising about that. He is the Rightful King of Westeros 
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Mar 20, 2014 22:38
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CapnAndy posted:It would have been a good ending moment in a season that sorely needed one (Dany crowdsurfing? Really?), it doesn't change the plot because she's just gonna gently caress around the woods hanging Freys for a while which can start whenever, and pushing that reveal up is doable because, chronologically, she was raised only a few days after the Red Wedding. Kung Fu Jesus posted:I thought she would appear last season because I thought they would show her creation. You can't show her creation at the end of Season 4 because too much times has passed. But I forgot that GURM didn't show her creation in the book either. So they can just reveal her fully formed whenever they want. However, I think showing her come back last season would have been much better than that stupid jesus posing mosh pit scene. It would have been terrible because Stoneheart being tossed into the end of S3 would have destroyed half the drama and impact of the Red Wedding. Two important characters die, the Stark rebellion is crushed in a single massacre with most of their generals and army, and this idea is putting "Well, one of them got better!" in the very next episode. It would have been garbage. You can easily show her at the end of Season 4 because that's how the book did it. It shoved her into the epilogue because at that point she's not important, just shocking. Showing her at any point earlier in Season 4 is just going to piss off the viewers if the show doesn't go back to her again, and the only thing to show is "Yep, still wandering around the woods." Stoneheart isn't important to the story until she captures Brienne, and putting her into any episode earlier than S4E9-E10 would be a huge mistake, and putting her into S3E10 would have been idiocy. Tyree posted:The reason I thought it might happen was because of how they handled Bran and Rickon "dying" in season 2. They showed them alive in the very next episode instead of revealing it in the season finale. Bran and Rickon being alive isn't a major twist, and its one that the show telegraphed in the same episode they 'died'. Hell, my roommate, who hasn't read the books, can't keep track of a lot of character names, let alone their relations to each other, still figured out that the dead bodies were the farmer's kids that very episode that they died.
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Mar 21, 2014 03:49
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Vernii posted:Bran and Rickon being alive isn't a major twist, and its one that the show telegraphed in the same episode they 'died'. Hell, my roommate, who hasn't read the books, can't keep track of a lot of character names, let alone their relations to each other, still figured out that the dead bodies were the farmer's kids that very episode that they died. I'm pretty sure in the book they say in the same chapter or at least the next one that he just killed the other kids because he couldn't find Bran & Rickon.
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Mar 21, 2014 03:55
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Vernii posted:It would have been terrible because Stoneheart being tossed into the end of S3 would have destroyed half the drama and impact of the Red Wedding. Two important characters die, the Stark rebellion is crushed in a single massacre with most of their generals and army, and this idea is putting "Well, one of them got better!" in the very next episode. It would have been garbage. They didn't need to show her getting up and wandering around, but to have seen Beric hunched over her while Thoros and Anguy look on, and having the screen cut to black as we hear a rasping wheeze (mirroring the dragon screech from Season 1 and the Other's cry in Season 2) would have been an incredible final sting. Nothing is explicitly confirmed, so there's no need to immediately provide answers, allowing Stoneheart to appear in all her horror at the end of Brienne's story without seeming like an asspull. As it is, it looks like we're going to get a "hey guys, you'll never guess what happened... off screen... without any build up". And yeah, in the books Stoneheart doesn't show up till the epilogue (although chronologically she's revived three days later), but one of the best things about the show is that it is not constrained by the POV format and that we can see scenes we only ever heard about in passing. Beric's decision to sacrifice himself to fulfill his oath to Arya, only to bring back a monster is probably the most important and poignant scene we never got to see. Also I disagree with the idea that Catelyn being revived as a hateful revenant somehow lessens the impact of the Red Wedding instead of making it worse. Especially if we see how disfigured her body is before it is revived and are left to imagine what happens next. In It For The Tank fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Mar 21, 2014 |
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Mar 21, 2014 04:40
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What was Beric's oath to Arya. Was it that she would get to see her mother again?
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Mar 21, 2014 04:48
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Something like that.quote:“What if my brother doesn't want to ransom me?” In It For The Tank fucked around with this message at 06:35 on Mar 21, 2014 |
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Mar 21, 2014 05:41
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MORE TRAILERS  Mostly stuff we've seen before but there are a few new scenes in there including Mance in battle, Jon fighting who I assume are the mutineers, and Cersei kneeling over Joffrey's (out of frame) body.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2VoOb02ayI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2Gzn9-B7tw Joffrey's wedding and murder taking place outdoors in broad daylight is kind of an interesting choice, I wonder if they just wanted to make it totally different from the RW. Or maybe I just wasn't paying attention when I read the book, but I always assumed it was in a big hall or something.
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Mar 21, 2014 05:58
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Wow I totally missed another heroicish character dying for their own stupid honour and nobility.
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Mar 21, 2014 05:59
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They've shown that same Walker shot in three trailers now. He has to be Coldhands, regardless of how he looks. I'm gonna be mighty mad if he gets cut.
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Mar 21, 2014 06:01
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In It For The Tank posted:Also I disagree with the idea that Catelyn being revived as a hateful revenant somehow lessens the impact of the Red Wedding instead of making it worse. Especially if we see how disfigured her body is before it is revived and are left to imagine what happens next. Part of the impact of characters dying is having them physically removed from the text for a while. Their presence in the story may linger but they are gone and the audience has a certain amount of time to "grieve" over and accept the death of the character that was active in their mental and emotional world for a while. A character's removal from the story is important, but the story continuing on without them is equally important. Putting Cait straight back into the next episode completely removed that part of the viewing experience while offering nothing in return but a stinger. Putting Cait into the story at a point in the future where she is actually going to be plot and character relevant gives the death enough time to resonate, the audience time to accept that she is gone and then a real surprise when she shows back up again to actually do something. This way you get the loss AND the intensification instead of brief intensification followed by nothing for a couple of years. There was never any possibility she'd have shown up at the end of the last season. It would have been appalling, anti-dramatic writing to have done so. 
Spermanent Record fucked around with this message at 06:15 on Mar 21, 2014 |
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Mar 21, 2014 06:09
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They could have just given us something magical/weird/watercooler-talk-worthy as the final shot for the season, like, i dunno, Mance's army marching on the Wall with mammoths and giants visible to the horizon, or something. Anything to tide us over in the same way as "holy gently caress the white walkers!" did at the end of season 2. Anything but white girl on brown people sea.
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Mar 21, 2014 06:15
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Friendly Factory posted:They've shown that same Walker shot in three trailers now. He has to be Coldhands, regardless of how he looks. I'm gonna be mighty mad if he gets cut.
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Mar 21, 2014 06:17
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Hedrigall posted:Anything but white girl on brown people sea. This bothered you? lol
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Mar 21, 2014 06:24
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Hedrigall posted:They could have just given us something magical/weird/watercooler-talk-worthy as the final shot for the season, like, i dunno, Mance's army marching on the Wall with mammoths and giants visible to the horizon, or something. Anything to tide us over in the same way as "holy gently caress the white walkers!" did at the end of season 2. Gurm explained that scene pretty well. I mean it was a lovely scene writing-wise, but I get the idea. In the books, Essos is far more multi-ethnic. In the show, the producers have to deal with money problems, namely that they're filming Essos scenes in places comprised of 95% non-whites. Getting a truck full of white people from other places would cost a lot of money. Plus, it's not exactly going to be a white saviour in the end anyways, since she obviously hosed up large with every city she conquered.
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Mar 21, 2014 06:30
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Friendly Factory posted:They've shown that same Walker shot in three trailers now. He has to be Coldhands, regardless of how he looks. I'm gonna be mighty mad if he gets cut. John Bradley (Sam) says Coldhands doesn't really play a part in the show, so I think Coldhands has been cut, and the shot of the White Walker is just a shot of a White Walker.
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Mar 21, 2014 06:33
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Friendly Factory posted:Gurm explained that scene pretty well. I mean it was a lovely scene writing-wise, but I get the idea. In the books, Essos is far more multi-ethnic. In the show, the producers have to deal with money problems, namely that they're filming Essos scenes in places comprised of 95% non-whites. Getting a truck full of white people from other places would cost a lot of money. Plus, it's not exactly going to be a white saviour in the end anyways, since she obviously hosed up large with every city she conquered. All the racism/casting issues/excuses aside, it's also a loving boring way to end a season, when the first two seasons had way cooler endings.
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Mar 21, 2014 06:33
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In It For The Tank posted:John Bradley (Sam) says Coldhands doesn't really play a part in the show, so I think Coldhands has been cut, and the shot of the White Walker is just a shot of a White Walker. That is a sweaty, sweaty man.
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Mar 21, 2014 06:34
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In It For The Tank posted:John Bradley (Sam) says Coldhands doesn't really play a part in the show, so I think Coldhands has been cut, and the shot of the White Walker is just a shot of a White Walker. Well that's a bummer
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Mar 21, 2014 06:39
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The Lady Stoneheart reveal is done so well in the books because of the sheer amount of PLOT that happens between the Red Wedding and the reveal. Joffrey's death, Tyrion's arrest and trial, Sansa escaping KL, The Hound "dying", Oberyn vs Gregor, Tyrion escaping and killing Shae and Tywin, "Only Cat", the battle at the Wall, etc. They give you all these new plot twists to occupy your mind so that you've effectively forgotten about the RW before they hit you with it again in literally the final paragraph of the book.
Kevyn fucked around with this message at 06:42 on Mar 21, 2014 |
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Mar 21, 2014 06:40
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Friendly Factory posted:Well that's a bummer Not only is it a bummer, it doesn't seem to make much sense. If we're already coming to the end of Bran's storyline in ASOS and starting to introduce ADWD material, exactly what are you going to do for the next few seasons? Unless Bran turns into, as some have guessed, a Flashback Machine?
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Mar 21, 2014 07:10
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Hedrigall posted:They could have just given us something magical/weird/watercooler-talk-worthy as the final shot for the season, like, i dunno, Mance's army marching on the Wall with mammoths and giants visible to the horizon, or something. Anything to tide us over in the same way as "holy gently caress the white walkers!" did at the end of season 2. As if anyone was going to talk about anything besides the Red Wedding in relation to the series for quite a while. I think it worked pretty well, since viewers needed something to cheer up after the previous episode, and also because there was nothing they could do that would had gotten remotely the same level of attention. Not everything has to end in a goddamn cliff hanger.
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Mar 21, 2014 07:24
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In It For The Tank posted:Also I disagree with the idea that Catelyn being revived as a hateful revenant somehow lessens the impact of the Red Wedding instead of making it worse. Especially if we see how disfigured her body is before it is revived and are left to imagine what happens next. You know, except for the fact that if the scene were as you described, we wouldn't have known *that* she was a hateful revenant. I was one of the people who thought Stoneheart would be in. But that was just because I thought it could be cool if the titular "Mhysa" had a double meaning, as opposed to just being about Dany. Everything everyone wrote above about crowdsurfing, and all that. I'm fine with finding her through Brienne, especially if it happens this season and so we get Brienne's story out of the way this season. Mike N Eich posted:Not only is it a bummer, it doesn't seem to make much sense. If we're already coming to the end of Bran's storyline in ASOS and starting to introduce ADWD material, exactly what are you going to do for the next few seasons? They could show Bran communicating with Theon, just as he does in the second part of ADWD. They are moving Theon back towards Winterfell this year, too. meristem fucked around with this message at 07:29 on Mar 21, 2014 |
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Mar 21, 2014 07:25
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I wish to recast my previous metaphor as "white girl crouton floating on brown people soup", i like that better
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Mar 21, 2014 07:26
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meristem posted:You know, except for the fact that if the scene were as you described, we wouldn't have known *that* she was a hateful revenant. The audience would still know she's alive and that would remove half the dramatic effect of the Red Wedding. I mean this when I say that it would be bad writing if they had done it, and the series is well-off for not doing it. A large portion of the impact of the Red Wedding on the reader/viewer is that it genuinely looks like the Freys and Boltons are going to get away with it, and that will especially weigh on the viewers through season 4, and then they'll finally get what they've been wanting after having to wait for it. Waiting is not a bad thing, patience is not a bad thing. Frozenpeas is 100% correct when he said that bringing her back in S3 would have been appallingly anti-dramatic. quote:I was one of the people who thought Stoneheart would be in. But that was just because I thought it could be cool if the titular "Mhysa" had a double meaning, as opposed to just being about Dany. Everything everyone wrote above about crowdsurfing, and all that. I'm fine with finding her through Brienne, especially if it happens this season and so we get Brienne's story out of the way this season. You would have thrown away a great dramatic reveal a season later and wasted the effect of the Red Wedding so you could have a title with a double meaning? What a fantastic trade! Thank god the writers didn't do anything that dumb. Anyway, I imagine they'll condense Brienne's storyline down quite a bit since most of it was fairly boring and entirely disconnected from what everyone else has doing, and they already did half a season of her wandering around in some woods but at least then she had another major character to talk to. However, I would be highly surprised if they encounter each other this season because if that happens then the only thing left for her is to meet Jaime and lead him to what's probably an ambush, and then the show will be past the books at that point, and I highly doubt they'll advance one single, relatively minor plot that far.
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Mar 21, 2014 07:38
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Vernii posted:The audience would still know she's alive and that would remove half the dramatic effect of the Red Wedding. I mean this when I say that it would be bad writing if they had done it, and the series is well-off for not doing it. A large portion of the impact of the Red Wedding on the reader/viewer is that it genuinely looks like the Freys and Boltons are going to get away with it, and that will especially weigh on the viewers through season 4, and then they'll finally get what they've been wanting after having to wait for it. Waiting is not a bad thing, patience is not a bad thing. Frozenpeas is 100% correct when he said that bringing her back in S3 would have been appallingly anti-dramatic. However, quote:However, I would be highly surprised if they encounter each other this season because if that happens then the only thing left for her is to meet Jaime and lead him to what's probably an ambush, and then the show will be past the books at that point, and I highly doubt they'll advance one single, relatively minor plot that far. As I said multiple times, though, it's kind of hard to predict, even if fun to speculate on.
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Mar 21, 2014 08:15
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meristem posted:I think you're exaggerating, but it's hard to argue counterfactuals, so I'm not interested in that. Think about how lame it is when shows actually do something interesting with their characters and then hit the reset button so they don't have to actually do anything daring or depart from the established plotline. Bringing Catelyn back to life the very next episode after her murder is the same thing as hitting the reset button, and what's worse is that it would kill the best part of the Red Wedding, which is establishing to viewers that no character is safe, and furthermore, robbing the next season of an actual shock and surprise for viewers. This argument honestly makes me wonder if some of you are actually able to grasp the concept of 'pacing'. quote:Why do you say that? Brienne shares a storyline with Jaime, and, even if her part was temporarily over, that'd still leave his entire part to go through. It's like Bran and Theon in ADWD - Bran's chapters end, but we see him in Theon's. Here's basically the major events for Brienne and Jaime from the latter half of book 3 and onward: Brienne's storyline: hang out in king's landing > go on search for sansa > get captured by stoneheart and released > meet up with jaime | end of written material Jaime's storyline: king's landing intrigue (cersei, tyrion, relearning to fight etc)> dealing with riverrun > dealing with other nobles/telling cersei to gently caress off > meeting Brienne | end of written material It's a silly idea to think that Brienne's storyline is going to get condensed down to the point that her getting captured by Stoneheart is going to show up in this season, because at that point all that's left for the follow up season is her meeting up with Jaime. Likewise, Jaime at least has interesting things to do from Book 4/5, which means that if we skip straight to Brienne being captured at S4E10 (or even worse, earlier), then that means Jaime's own plotline is going to have be condensed, or they'll just have to keep Brienne offscreen for most of Season 5. Her storyline can only be compressed so far before it starts making a mess of things chronologically because other characters still have their own roles to play before she can re-unite with the rest of the plotlines. Not to mention there is plenty of stuff for season 3 to go over, that it doesn't need to be cramming stuff from later books into it. Vice versa, the later books aren't as event/plot heavy as book 3, and so therefore shouldn't be robbed of material to stuff into an already busy season. This speculation is silly and I'm betting entirely based on people being too impatient to wait, they want everything now. Vernii fucked around with this message at 09:08 on Mar 21, 2014 |
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Mar 21, 2014 08:57
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Some of the speculations I see on here (and other places) lead me to believe that there are only three books, game of thrones, the one after it and the one with everything else in it.
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Mar 21, 2014 09:05
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lemonadesweetheart posted:Some of the speculations I see on here (and other places) lead me to believe that there are only three books, game of thrones, the one after it and the one with everything else in it. Basically. Four and five might as well be one book, and while some interesting stuff happens in them, it's pretty sparse compared to Book 3 (as obviously evidenced by the fact that 3 had to be split up while some posters are speculating that books 4-5 can be condensed into one season). That's what makes this whole "the writers should steal poo poo from Book 4/5 and put it into Season 4 ahead of time" pretty drat silly.
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Mar 21, 2014 09:10
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Vernii posted:That's what makes this whole "the writers should steal poo poo from Book 4/5 and put it into Season 4 ahead of time" pretty drat silly. But the writers actually are stealing poo poo from 4/5 and putting it into Season 4 ahead of time. Mostly because season 3 went beyond halfway through A Storm of Swords for most of the plot threads.
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Mar 21, 2014 10:09
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frozenpeas posted:Part of the impact of characters dying is having them physically removed from the text for a while. Their presence in the story may linger but they are gone and the audience has a certain amount of time to "grieve" over and accept the death of the character that was active in their mental and emotional world for a while. A character's removal from the story is important, but the story continuing on without them is equally important. I sort of agree. On the other hand, we need to hear about Stoneheart before we ever see her. It won't detract from the surprise as there would be no way to guess it was Cat.
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Mar 21, 2014 10:10
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pigdog posted:A Jaime/Cersei clip that was shown during some talk show interview. ... Is Cersei loving serious?
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Mar 21, 2014 14:10
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AStrangeDuelist posted:... That's pre-purple wedding too. I wonder what it will be like after Joff dies.
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Mar 21, 2014 14:16
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AStrangeDuelist posted:... No, she's loving Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moonboy for all I know
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Mar 21, 2014 14:26
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the World of ice and Fire iOS app got an update yesterday that includes a Tyrion chapter from TWOW. I'm not sure if it's a completely new one, or one of the two that have been read at conventions according to wikipedia:quote:Tyrion Lannister, one chapter was read at Eastercon in April 2012,[9] and one at Worldcon in August 2013.[citation needed] https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/george-r.-r.-martins-world/id570015223?mt=8
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Mar 21, 2014 14:32
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