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Saw this today. I really liked it. I have nothing to really add really but The Marvel Cinematic Universe is my favorite thing going in the theaters right now.Science question though: A gun with no rifling, wouldn't that make accurate shots with it REALLY hard? also I haven't been following Agents of Shield, doesn't this movie kind of gently caress that whole show? etalian posted:I got a chuckle seeing how some parents decided to take their small kids to see the film. I got in trouble at work (A after school program for grade schoolers) because I brought the first Captain America in to watch on a rainy day. A few parents weren't happy.
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Apr 5, 2014 22:58
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BigRed0427 posted:Saw this today. I really liked it. Science question though: A gun with no rifling, wouldn't that make accurate shots with it REALLY hard? Yup any sort of modern firearm has rifling, without it you lose lots of accuracy. It's one reason why the old school muskets had horrible accuracy
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Apr 5, 2014 23:00
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"This isn't freedom; it's fear." That line sets up the main dichotomy of what's going on. HYDRA in the films is an evil covert organization that hides within more powerful overt ones with compatible aims, and leverages them in bids for world domination. HYDRA in reality is the fear of others' freedom; anybody who's afraid of letting people do whatever they want, it says, is the real HYDRA. They say that cutting off one head makes two more grow in its place because cutting off one of HYDRA's heads is free people choosing to use violence, and that's exactly the sort of sight that made HYDRA's members so afraid that they joined up in the first place. Steve Rogers is the most free person on earth (Sam says he can do anything he wants), and Bucky Barnes is the least. This reflects on their superiors, demonstrating that despite being two extremely paranoid spymasters who are in charge of the same single organization that started Project INSIGHT, Nick Fury and Alexander Pierce are opposites. The story presents a Fury that has almost been persuaded into doing Pierce's bidding; a SHIELD that has almost been taken over by HYDRA; an America that has almost chosen fear over freedom. Actually, that's wrong. There's no "almost." It's a Fury / SHIELD / America that almost does something atrocious because they have already been compromised by Pierce / HYDRA / fear. But, of course, the film says, it's not too late to change your mind. It's not a subtle movie, nor should it be. Party Boat posted:I would have liked that a lot more if it wasn't resolved by Nick Fury and some old home movies. I choose to believe SHIELD faked that footage to pull Tony out of his funk. Bongo Bill fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Apr 5, 2014 |
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Apr 5, 2014 23:14
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BigRed0427 posted:Saw this today. I really liked it. I have nothing to really add really but The Marvel Cinematic Universe is my favorite thing going in the theaters right now.Science question though: A gun with no rifling, wouldn't that make accurate shots with it REALLY hard? They could have been implying a fin stabilized projectile or some sort of discarding sabot. There's also polygonal rifling (on right) that doesn't leave defined marks on projectiles.  As an aside, the whole CSI bit of matching rifling to a specific gun isn't really possible. The best you can do with any scientific accuracy is match to a manufacturer or maybe a model.
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Apr 5, 2014 23:23
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AtraMorS posted:Quoting from the Comic Book Movie thread: I don't really think that Hydra can count as a stand-in for the US government, though. Hydra is still a separate entity working to undermine the US, not a part of the US itself. Having SHIELD be "purified" by the end of the film and returned to its original purpose (but in a much diminished form), to me at least, feels like an absolution of the US government from any shifty things it may have done by placing the blame on a foreign other. I feel like the film could have been more effective had SHIELD become corrupted on its own. After all, it's not like real life drone/surveillance programs were created by undercover super-Nazis.
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Apr 5, 2014 23:29
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HorseRenoir posted:I don't really think that Hydra can count as a stand-in for the US government, though. Hydra is still a separate entity working to undermine the US, not a part of the US itself. Having SHIELD be "purified" by the end of the film and returned to its original purpose (but in a much diminished form), to me at least, feels like an absolution of the US government from any shifty things it may have done by placing the blame on a foreign other. I feel like the film could have been more effective had SHIELD become corrupted on its own. After all, it's not like real life drone/surveillance programs were created by undercover super-Nazis. HYDRA is a metaphor, and SHIELD was dismantled.
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Apr 5, 2014 23:33
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etalian posted:I got a chuckle seeing how some parents decided to take their small kids to see the film. I was really surprised by this too, and really annoyed with the kids behind me talking and kicking my seat. Hell, even a younger kid sitting a few seats away with her family kept looking back and shushing those kids. Loved the film. My personal opinion, I think it's the best MCU flick to date. But I still need to see Thor 2
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Apr 6, 2014 00:04
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Vintimus Prime posted:I was really surprised by this too, and really annoyed with the kids behind me talking and kicking my seat. Hell, even a younger kid sitting a few seats away with her family kept looking back and shushing those kids. I like Thor 2, but The Winter Soldier is much better.
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Apr 6, 2014 00:21
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Vintimus Prime posted:Loved the film. My personal opinion, I think it's the best MCU flick to date. But I still need to see Thor 2 This is a funny thing to read. Credit where it's due though, none of the extended MCU movies feel like superhero franchise cash-ins. Thor 2, Captain 2, and Iron-Man 3 are all bizarrely unique films.
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Apr 6, 2014 00:25
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kater posted:This is a funny thing to read. Yeah. It's clear that the people behind the MCU films clearly give all the fucks when it comes to putting them together, even when they don't work out. (Thor 2 had good character moments between Thor and Loki but felt kind of dull and Iron Man 2 and Hulk are definitely the weakest films in the series)
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Apr 6, 2014 00:34
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Incredible Hulk was weak. Regular Hulk was the most bizarrely unique of them all.
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Apr 6, 2014 00:47
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kater posted:This is a funny thing to read. One of the "we need to delay the show for March Madness and to sync up with the movie" replacements for Agents of SHIELD was a retrospective at all of the Marvel movies and how they got made. They talked about how they're not making superhero movies so much as "a sci-fi movie with superheroes" (Guardians) or "a period piece with superheroes" (Cap'n America 1) or, well, "an action movie with superheroes" (Iron Man, Thor). Using different directors and all that has let them really fit the style of the movie to the style of the hero, while still keeping them in a universe that feels consistent. BigRed0427 posted:also (Agents of SHIELD and movie spoilers, for context) Short answer, yes. Long answer, they've been preparing for it. They've been framing the last few months as a big event and subtitled the series "Agents of SHIELD: Uprising". They haven't called it HYDRA but they've been uncovering a secret organization that they just realized has access to all of SHIELD'S intel. Also, last episode ended with everybody turning on each other in a game we like to call "which ones are evil, and which ones just have a misunderstanding". That's either concurrent with the movie (either Cap's elevator scene or when he's storming the Tri-whatchamacalit) or there are TWO secret evil organizations that decided to make their big play at the same time. So yeah, there's gonna be fallout from the movie. Maybe everything gets resolved Saturday Morning Cartoon style and they keep their part of SHIELD running in secret somehow. Maybe Coulson's team goes vigilante and follows Fury's example, toodling around in a jet doing things off the book. Maybe the series gets renamed to just Agents. Maybe something truly weird happens, they wind up in the Guardians part of the galaxy, and Whedon makes a second season of Firefly just to see if he can get away with it.
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Apr 6, 2014 00:50
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BigRed0427 posted:I got in trouble at work (A after school program for grade schoolers) because I brought the first Captain America in to watch on a rainy day. A few parents weren't happy. There is that scene where a guy gets sucked into a plane engine (yes there is one of these in both Cap1 and Cap2) and the camera lingers on his bloody remains trailing through the sky like a crop dusting plume. And the scene where the bad guy rips his own face off. Obviously you should have brought something wholesome and G-rated, like Disney's The Hunchback of Notre Dame.
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Apr 6, 2014 00:51
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HorseRenoir posted:I don't really think that Hydra can count as a stand-in for the US government, though. Hydra is still a separate entity working to undermine the US, not a part of the US itself. Having SHIELD be "purified" by the end of the film and returned to its original purpose (but in a much diminished form), to me at least, feels like an absolution of the US government from any shifty things it may have done by placing the blame on a foreign other. I feel like the film could have been more effective had SHIELD become corrupted on its own. After all, it's not like real life drone/surveillance programs were created by undercover super-Nazis. Edit: On that same note, someone else in either this thread or the other one posted a clip from All the President's Men that has some interesting parallels with Fury and Cap's scene in Cap's apartment. And as Bongo Bill said, SHIELD isn't purified. It's dismantled, hence the montage of all those former good-guy agents (Sharon Carter, a couple of others) applying to places like the CIA, FBI, and so on. AtraMorS fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Apr 6, 2014 |
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Apr 6, 2014 00:52
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tin can made man posted:There's been some chat on how The Winter Soldier (the character) feels shoehorned in and diverts attention from the main plots and themes. I thought the same thing, too, thinking "this would be a really strong movie even without the soldier here, they really could have saved him and not forced in all this Rogers/Bucky drama". However, closer to the end of the movie, it clicked. Much of the film is devoted to exploring HYDRA's philosophy of governance and war, and the Winter Soldier is the perfect distillation of that, laid bare for us to see what kind of world the Capcrew is fighting to stop. SHIELD and the US Military are far from perfect, and I don't think the movie was attempting to even suggest they were, but there's still a sheer contrast between them and the modus operandi of HYDRA. Rogers is given a rank; Barnes is given a role. In our world, soldiers are abused by the system, but are still able to 'get out' and seek psychiatric services to explore and heal from their haunted memories; Barnes is literally mindwiped and put into deep freeze. He is referred to as an 'asset', not a person. Even his movements and choreography, compared to that of Capcrew, are cold, robotic, and methodical: he's not a man, but a tool perfectly crafted by HYDRA for their use. This is their ideal soldier. He does not question his superiors on the efficiency of compartmentalization or exaggerated force projection. Agreed on all counts. Just a few days ago I read Batwoman: Elegy, and really hated the reveal of the villain's identity and the way it was set up. The Winter Soldier's story is superficially very similar, so I'd been trying to dissect why the WS worked for me when Batwoman's Alice didn't. For one thing, we aren't told who Bucky is after the reveal -- that relationship and its baggage had already developed naturally over the first film. It's something we observed ourselves rather than information we were fed. But more importantly, the Winter Soldier was thematically relevant. He could have been a complete stranger and still would have worked because he functions as an avatar for HYDRA ideology. The Winter Soldier, no matter who he is, is the dark mirror of Captain America. Against the backdrop of two powerful, nebulous organizations at war with each other, at the film's heart we have the battle between two men who represent the essence of each side. I also think it's interesting that, while HYDRA and SHIELD collapse in on each other in a hailstorm of fire and bullets, Steve finally broke through Bucky's programming by refusing to attack him. The Winter Soldier, who creepily had zero reaction to being backhanded by Pierce and who accepted a painful mind-wipe without resistance, is deeply shaken by a few minutes of interaction with Steve. He's been forced to do nothing but fight and destroy, and Steve isn't going to break through to him by forcing him to keep fighting, again. So Cap tells the WS to make his own choice, something that has never happened before. It ended up saving both their lives. edit for typos Crisco Kid fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Apr 6, 2014 |
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Apr 6, 2014 00:56
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Bongo Bill posted:Incredible Hulk was weak. Regular Hulk was the most bizarrely unique of them all. Regular Hulk doesn't even count and is on a different plane than the current projects.
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Apr 6, 2014 01:10
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Watched the movie today, loved it as being one the better directed Marvel movies, despite having one scene that really screamed "scene missing" to me. Props to the directors or the writers for incorporating some parts of Drive and Breaking Bad into the movie, in relation to setting up and shooting certain scenes. Also, the number of cameos is sort of crazy. Danny Pudi as a Shield agent, for no reason other than "this guy got to tour our set for a day" is a nice gesture, but completely effortless in the scope of everything else going on. I guess this makes Marvel films the current equivalent of Ocean's Eleven by familiarizing your world through easily recognizable actors/characters.
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Apr 6, 2014 01:37
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Crisco Kid posted:I also think it's interesting that, while HYDRA and SHIELD collapse in on each other in a hailstorm of fire and bullets, Steve finally broke through Bucky's programming by refusing to attack him. The Winter Soldier, who creepily had zero reaction to being backhanded by Pierce and who accepted a painful mind-wipe without resistance, is deeply shaken up by a few minutes of interaction with Steve. He's been forced to do nothing but fight and destroy, and Steve isn't going to break through to him by forcing him to keep fighting, again. So Cap tells the WS make to his own choice, something that has never happened before. It ended up saving both their lives. I love it that the avatar of twentieth-century American ideals ultimately beats the fascists by being communicative and compassionate and trying to de-escalate the situation vis-a-vis his friend rather than just saying "gently caress it" and throwing himself back into the fight. Someone earlier was saying that the Winter Soldier was unnecessary to the plot but if you removed it I think Cap would end up really stale--at the start of the movie he already distrusts SHIELD, Fury and his government, so it's no real surprise when poo poo hits the wall and there's no real internal conflict for him. Transferring the conflict to how Cap deals with Bucky and asking whether or not he can be broken through to--whether a fascist (or a terrorist!) can be persuaded from violence without threatening more violence--is a fantastic way to deal with the personal side of the more global issues the film tackles.
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Apr 6, 2014 01:47
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etalian posted:I got a chuckle seeing how some parents decided to take their small kids to see the film. My son is 11 and we are going tomorrow. Oh course, his favorite movie is Terminator 2 so I may not be the best barometer.
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Apr 6, 2014 02:04
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Bongo Bill posted:Incredible Hulk was weak. Regular Hulk was the most bizarrely unique of them all. Regular Hulk is above and beyond, still the best Marvel Superhero related film to date though it wasn't made under the studio. I'm really happy with what they did with Iron Man 3, Thor 2, and Captain America 2. This movie was really quite good and I hope the final installment of Thor and Cap will get even better. Guardians though, man if that one kicks rear end...I dunno. I'm not that optimistic about Avengers 2 but eh.
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Apr 6, 2014 02:09
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It also a pretty fun movie since Black Widow and Captain America work well in terms of screen chemistry. Not to mention being a bit more relatable since they don't have god level powers like the Hulk or Thor.
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Apr 6, 2014 02:27
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Party Boat posted:The staggered exits from Marvel films are a good way to segregate the audience into normal people, nerds and turbonerds. I'm one of those people who sit through the credits of every movie, but I'll fully admit that I fall into the "turbonerd" camp. AtraMorS posted:I did exactly the same thing, mostly just so I didn't have to deal with traffic in the parking lot. Ironically, you'll probably avoid the traffic better by waiting the 5-10 minutes for the credit roll to end. raditts fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Apr 6, 2014 |
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Apr 6, 2014 03:27
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I've lost track, is Regular Hulk the Ang Lee "we're going to frame things as comic book panels and wind up with a confusing mess" movie or is that Incredible Hulk?
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Apr 6, 2014 03:47
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Bruceski posted:I've lost track, is Regular Hulk the Ang Lee "we're going to frame things as comic book panels and wind up with a confusing mess" movie or is that Incredible Hulk? I think that's "Regular Hulk." If I remember correctly it was just called "Hulk" or "The Hulk", wasn't it? Either way, The Incredible Hulk was the 2008 one and is the only one that counts as part of the Avengers canon.
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Apr 6, 2014 03:50
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I just got back from a second screening and have to give props to the set decorator. When Alexander Pierce opens his refrigerator, there's a jar of Newman's Own pasta sauce in the back.
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Apr 6, 2014 03:51
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raditts posted:I'm one of those people who sit through the credits of every movie, but I'll fully admit that I fall into the "turbonerd" camp. All the way to the end? why?
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Apr 6, 2014 04:14
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So i noticed the posters for this move have been edited here in Mexico, they erased the guns from BW's hands, and the rifle the WS is holding, kinda weird considering the movie has a gunfight and all sorts of killing in the first 10 minutes. Loved the movie BTW.
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Apr 6, 2014 04:14
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Wandle Cax posted:All the way to the end? why? Nice time to think to yourself or with friends about the film.
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Apr 6, 2014 04:25
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Wandle Cax posted:All the way to the end? why? I watch credits to the end even if there isn't nerd crap. It's just a habit. I like seeing who does what.
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Apr 6, 2014 04:31
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I bet once this comes out on DVD you'll be able to pause the scene where Zola's algorithm starts targeting people and pick out MCU references all over the place.
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Apr 6, 2014 04:32
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I had a bus to catch, otherwise I totally would have sat to the end.
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Apr 6, 2014 04:40
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Wandle Cax posted:All the way to the end? why? Why not? If nothing else there's usually good soundtrack reprisals, and if I just got done watching a movie it's not usually like I've got somewhere important to be.
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Apr 6, 2014 05:19
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Retardog posted:I just got back from a second screening and have to give props to the set decorator. When Alexander Pierce opens his refrigerator, there's a jar of Newman's Own pasta sauce in the back. What does that have to do with Robert Redford?
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Apr 6, 2014 05:20
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sleepingbuddha posted:What does that have to do with Robert Redford? This and This
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Apr 6, 2014 05:23
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Just got back from the movie having gone in blind (well, I love the actual Winter Soldier comics but knew nothing of the movie) and loved the poo poo out of it. The villians actually felt very bad and the loving Winter Soldier was The Terminator
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Apr 6, 2014 06:00
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Retardog posted:I just got back from a second screening and have to give props to the set decorator. When Alexander Pierce opens his refrigerator, there's a jar of Newman's Own pasta sauce in the back. I noticed it as well and instantly got https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WxfjWnuEno stuck in my head.
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Apr 6, 2014 06:09
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I really enjoyed how threatening and dangerous the Winter Soldier was. When he's around there is not any loving around.
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Apr 6, 2014 06:09
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To me, it was "good enough". It wasn't as good as I was led to believe. Like Iron Man 2 and unlike Iron Man 3, the plot did seem to heavily focus on the main spine of the Marvel Universe and world-building. The modern SHIELD sets felt generic in design. Captain America 1 had the period stuff to make it interesting and enjoyable. Obviously the sequel can't do it again, but I was hoping they can do more to set it apart from making the movie "feel" like it's merely Avengers 1.5 I'll contrast this film with Star Trek Into Darkness. Both had a similar plot, but The Winter Soldier manages to handle the concept much better. Its villian had a preposterous scheme, but they don't overcomplicate the plot and schemes for the sake of making the movie pretend to be smarter than it actually is. While Trek had a "story" that felt like a tiring holdover plot from the Bush post-9/11 era, The Winter Soldier manages to make the themes of government overreach in the name of national security relevant in the Obama era and beyond. (And I'm not just referring to drone warfare and the nods to Greenwald/Snowden at the end.) The film earned the theme that "the worst isn't behind us" and entertains the idea that the covert fascists in our world may have already won with massive data collection, constant domestic surveillance, and ubiquitous untrustworthy agents. We've trusted too much power to secretive organizations that it's easy for someone with an evil agenda to usurp it. Though fair criticisms could be made that the enemies were literally neo-nazis. (It would be equally bad if it wasn't HYDRA. I still think a superhero movie can handle a little more nuance and didn't have to invoke Godwin. Killing millions of people is evil enough.) And also, the film seems too eager to absolve the legitimate institutions in our government. To continue the Star Trek comparison, while the Winter Soldier villian doesn't make that strong of an impression compared to other comic book movie villians, at least its character has some well-defined dynamic with the hero in the story, rather than rely on the audience going "Oh. This means nothing to the protagonist, but we know who Khan is." Okay, I just hate Star Trek Into Darkness a lot, and I'll take every opportunity to keep bashing it. In general, if you're still enjoying Marvel movie canon, go watch this. If you're already sick of it, this is still skip-able. On an aesthetic level, it's not as good an experience as The First Avenger. Chris Evans continues to sell the Mary Sue do-gooder very well, though I wouldn't mind if the film had just a little bit more of the character-driven wit from The Avengers in the third act. The film is competent and forgettable.
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Apr 6, 2014 06:22
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Echo Chamber posted:The film is competent and forgettable. I would vehemently disagree with this, if for nothing else than the opening scene with Cap loving Solid Snakeing his way through that freighter.
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Apr 6, 2014 06:32
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I don't think the enemies being "literal Nazis" should be seen as a mark against it. There are plenty around today even if hey don't wear the uniform. It's pretty cool and honestly much more realistic and accurate to the real world that it doesn't treat fascism and Nazi ideals as "that thing we beat in WWII that is long gone."
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Apr 6, 2014 06:42
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