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CJacobs posted:Oh. I can see what you mean but I guess I don't really know why that's a problem? It's not like I support violence against women in video games or whatever (because video games are not real life and getting your morals from that makes you an idiot) but my thinking was more along the lines that it is shown a lot than the fact that it's happening to a woman. "Your X is dead get revenge!" is like Third Person Video Game Trope Alpha. For example, if you're a woman and you like playing a lot of video games, the characters you tend to want to relate to the most usually get kidnapped or murdered at the beginning of the story. If you want to play a video game where you're a cool kickass person who happens to have the same set of chromosomes as yourself, you're probably gonna have to spend most of the game looking at her cleavage, as well. It's a thing that makes the industry a big bummer to like 50% of the population. Personally I dislike the trend because then you get women and minorities turned off from getting an interest in video games, and then you end up with 50 years of Buff White Dudes Shooting Things as the bulk of your gaming.
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Apr 9, 2014 15:58
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Darn.  It is totally a lazy excuse by the game to give Wei a reason to go after Dogeyes because otherwise his only motivation would come from the triad that he has just met like half an hour ago. edit: Wei's sister is treated not as a character but as motivation for Wei and the reason I don't see anything wrong with that is because the game never pretends that she is supposed to be a developed character. I dunno, I guess I just don't see it with the same amount of importance. edit: You make a good point in that the game favors the guys more than the women and that a lot of games do that but video games do not have to follow the same rules and social guidelines as real life. I've seen the "well guys are treated unrealistically too" argument a lot when it comes to gender equality in video games and it's easily dismissed but it's also, to an extent, true. Nobody is accurately represented in video games. Should there be more games where the women take a front seat? Yeah. Do current video game trends need to change for that to happen? Yeah. Do video games need to shy away from glorifying this thing or that thing or the other thing? Absolutely not. CJacobs fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Apr 9, 2014 |
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Apr 9, 2014 16:00
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Crappy Jack posted:For example, if you're a woman and you like playing a lot of video games, the characters you tend to want to relate to the most usually get kidnapped or murdered at the beginning of the story. If you want to play a video game where you're a cool kickass person who happens to have the same set of chromosomes as yourself, you're probably gonna have to spend most of the game looking at her cleavage, as well. It's a thing that makes the industry a big bummer to like 50% of the population. Personally I dislike the trend because then you get women and minorities turned off from getting an interest in video games, and then you end up with 50 years of Buff White Dudes Shooting Things as the bulk of your gaming. Though you occasionally get something good, like Heavenly Sword, or most of the Metroid games, or Perfect Dark, or you have games with believable and genuinely good female characters in them like Uncharted, or the original Prince of Persia reboot. I stand by my comments about marginalized races as the biggest social travesty of gaming, but who cares because those people don't actually count anyway and it doesn't really matter if they feel stereotyped and left out, right? 
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Apr 9, 2014 18:34
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Fuzz posted:Though you occasionally get something good, like Heavenly Sword, or most of the Metroid games, or Perfect Dark, or you have games with believable and genuinely good female characters in them like Uncharted, or the original Prince of Persia reboot. It sounds like you're just sensationalizing it for the sake of being outraged. She doesn't even come up that much in the game except for the beginning when everyone is like 'Hey Wei long time no see hows your family?' and then a few moments later on when characters reminisces about shared history. Plus she didn't get loving kidnapped or murdered by the triads. She OD'd on drugs. It's tangentially related at best, and it's never used as the characters primary motivation. It sounds to me like you're over-blowing it for the sake of drama really. Especially in Sleeping Dogs of all games to rant about marginalization of minorities. I mean do you think there might be a reason someone gave you a red title calling you out as an annoying drama queen?
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Apr 9, 2014 22:07
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PootieTang posted:It sounds like you're just sensationalizing it for the sake of being outraged. She doesn't even come up that much in the game except for the beginning when everyone is like 'Hey Wei long time no see hows your family?' and then a few moments later on when characters reminisces about shared history. Nope, it's possible to have criticisms without "being outraged". And just because Sleeping Dogs does a good job at portraying Hong Kong Asian culture, albeit through a Hollywood lens, doesn't mean that it can't fall short in other areas. So what exactly were you hoping to do with this post aside from start some sort of mudslinging back and forth?
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Apr 9, 2014 22:18
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PootieTang posted:It sounds like you're just sensationalizing it for the sake of being outraged. She doesn't even come up that much in the game except for the beginning when everyone is like 'Hey Wei long time no see hows your family?' and then a few moments later on when characters reminisces about shared history. You wrote the bold part like its a good thing, or that it makes something that could use improvement better. It actually makes it worse. Also I don't think you read the background notes you get very carefully because Wei's sister is literally the reason he's undercover in Hong Kong. His sister OD'd, he hunted down the man who sold her the heroin then tortured and killed him, which led directly to his recruitment by Pendrew. Wei's sister is most definitely his primary motivation, it brought him to torture someone who was probably a member of the Triads for revenge and it led to him to be easily persuaded into a dangerous undercover operation involving those same Triads. The game bringing her up more would have been far, far better. Please bring up red titles some more though, it really solidifies your position. Look, I have one too, go nuts.
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Apr 9, 2014 22:23
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Crappy Jack posted:Nope, it's possible to have criticisms without "being outraged". And just because Sleeping Dogs does a good job at portraying Hong Kong Asian culture, albeit through a Hollywood lens, doesn't mean that it can't fall short in other areas. So what exactly were you hoping to do with this post aside from start some sort of mudslinging back and forth? I think calling something a 'social travesty' counts as outrage doesn't it? And I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm just pointing out that there's a difference between a weak aspect of a story and some kind of attack on minorities. Plus what I was hoping to achieve was voicing how I disagree with that statement and think it doesn't really apply to Sleeping Dogs. What are you trying to achieve with your posts? (Don't answer that it's a rhetorical question because asking people what they're trying to achieve with their posts in a forum about video games is loving laughable)
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Apr 9, 2014 22:23
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Please lets not go down this road. I think video games are in a terrible state myself with regards to social issues and this thread is already headed to ruin since I can already see some of the lame rebuttals and dismissals that people like to use when defending the status quo and it will only spiral downward.
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Apr 9, 2014 22:28
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Kibayasu posted:You wrote the bold part like its a good thing, or that it makes something that could use improvement better. It actually makes it worse. Of course it's a good thing, do you really want a bunch of lovely flashbacks to a dead character interrupting the game? For the sake of building up a character who is dead and will have no impact on the plot or gameplay at all aside from that fact? quote:Also I don't think you read the background notes you get very carefully because Wei's sister is literally the reason he's undercover in Hong Kong. His sister OD'd, he hunted down the man who sold her the heroin then tortured and killed him, which led directly to his recruitment by Pendrew. Wei's sister is most definitely his primary motivation, it brought him to torture someone who was probably a member of the Triads for revenge and it led to him to be easily persuaded into a dangerous undercover operation involving those same Triads. The game bringing her up more would have been far, far better. You got me, I didn't read those background notes. But putting that aside, I still don't think the dead sibling issue is one of some kind of attack on minorities. Like a bunch of people above said, you could replace it with a guy and lose nothing. And I get it, sexism is a big thing in video games. But in Sleeping Dogs? I don't buy it. It's not like the lara Croft 'save her from being raped' advertising, or Metroid other M. I just don't get what you want. Flashbacks of Wei's sister being a strong independent woman? That usually comes off more condescending than just leaving that poo poo out in my eyes. quote:Please bring up red titles some more though, it really solidifies your position. Look, I have one too, go nuts. That red title was relevant, far be it from me to see someone who is taking things too dramatically, notice they have a red title saying 'I AM A DRAMA QUEEN' and think the two might be related. Though if that red title is a quote of yours... Youch dude. EDIT: I've come up with a solution that will satisfy everyone, just have a character select screen at the start where you can play as Wei or Mimi, and depending on who you choose the other character dies off screen of a drug overdose. That would make everyone happy right?
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Apr 9, 2014 22:34
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PootieTang posted:It sounds like you're just sensationalizing it for the sake of being outraged. She doesn't even come up that much in the game except for the beginning when everyone is like 'Hey Wei long time no see hows your family?' and then a few moments later on when characters reminisces about shared history. I don't know why you quoted me with this, because I had absolutely zero issue with how Wei's sister fit into the story of this game. She was ruined and ended up killing herself because of the horror she was put through at the hands of the Triad. It was a great backdrop from which Wei's character exploded at us with both feet firmly planted into some mooks' groins. And I do still think that the fact that the races and cultures of a eighth to maybe even a quarter of the world's population being completely ignored and never brought up at all in any video game ever is a social travesty. They;re such a great vehicle for broadening people's horizons (see also: this game) and yet it's a potential that's horridly under-realized because the American people are frankly scared of non-white people, simple as that. EDIT: to clarify, none of the social travesty has to do with this game, you guys need to go back and reread people's arguments and bone up on your reading comp skills. It was a response to all the people getting all "GRAWR WOMEN IN VIDEO GAMES" and blowing that trumpet in yet another thread, when the probably bigger trumpet of the race card is rarely ever blown except when it comes to the lack of or portrayal of black or asian people. There are more types of people in this world than white, black, and asian. That was my point. The fact that most Americans don't realize this and have established a culture wherein it's okay to make fun of Miss America for doing "Egyptian dancing" and calling her a terrorist and it's a funny joke on twitter kinda says something about how hosed up American society is. Fuzz fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Apr 9, 2014 |
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Apr 9, 2014 22:35
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PootieTang posted:Of course it's a good thing, do you really want a bunch of lovely flashbacks to a dead character interrupting the game? For the sake of building up a character who is dead and will have no impact on the plot or gameplay at all aside from that fact? This is another reason why I think Wei's sister got just the right amount of exposition. She's not an extremely developed character because she's dead and she didn't have to be one for the player to understand that, despite that being the case, she was important. There is seriously nothing wrong with her being a non-character because they get the point they are trying to make across: Wei loved his sister because she was a good person that fell in with a bad crowd and then died. End of character development. Does it even matter in the slightest that she's a girl who is dead? No, that's stupid.
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Apr 9, 2014 22:39
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Fuzz posted:I don't know why you quoted me with this, because I had absolutely zero issue with how Wei's sister fit into the story of this game. She was ruined and ended up killing herself because of the horror she was put through at the hands of the Triad. It was a great backdrop from which Wei's character exploded at us with both feet firmly planted into some mooks' groins. Well I'm not American if you're assuming that. And maybe I misread the prior conversation, I thought you were one of the people jumping on the game as a hate crime on women. My apologies. And really I think 'social travesty' is a bad term because the problem isn't White American's putting in super racist/sexist characters into their games (though that is a problem) the main problem is the fact that America makes the most movies/video games in the world by a large margin. And most of those things are gonna be written by White Americans. If every country in the world had the same production power as America, I'm sure we'd have a lot more variety, but until then we're gonna have to put up with most games being written by people more familiar with American culture and people. And really I think it's unfair to attack them for that when their only crime is writing what they're familiar with, and not writing about things they don't know about (which usually ends disastrously anyway). And again, that's not to make an excuse for games that are legitimately offensive or racist/sexist, but games like Sleeping Dogs, although they have weaknesses, to imply those weakness are caused by racism/sexism/some other form of hate, comes off as trying to pick a fight for the sake of it to me.
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Apr 9, 2014 22:43
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CJacobs posted:This is another reason why I think Wei's sister got just the right amount of exposition. She's not an extremely developed character because she's dead and she didn't have to be one for the player to understand that, despite that being the case, she was important. There is seriously nothing wrong with her being a non-character because they get the point they are trying to make across: Wei loved his sister because she was a good person that fell in with a bad crowd and then died. End of character development. Does it even matter in the slightest that she's a girl who is dead? No, that's stupid. Yeah, I don't get people complaining that she didn't have enough weight. I can only assume maybe they just don't have siblings or something so the concept of having a dead one isn't quite as personal to them that they can relate to it, I don't know. No I'm not saying only children can't relate to the concept of siblings, jesus stop your anger before it starts. I'm just saying that as a guy with 3 sisters, the amount of exposition Wei's sister got and the basic overview of her tale they give you via the dialog and Case Files is just enough to really get a feel for why Wei is so angry. The fact that they didn't pull the bullshit intro bit where you do a bunch of boring poo poo with your sister in an attempt to get you emotionally attached to her before they kill her off and dump you into the game proper, or go the flashback route, was a GOOD thing in my eyes. This game has its faults, but its characterizations and sense of motivations and emotional tension were not among them. At all. EDIT: Its portrayal of Race and Gender were also not major problems. They were trying to capture the vibe of the culture the game is about, and they did it really well. Fuzz fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Apr 9, 2014 |
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Apr 9, 2014 22:45
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PootieTang posted:Well I'm not American if you're assuming that. Ignorance is never an excuse, nor does it matter whether racism/sexism is intentional or not. It isn't like White Americans have to keep themselves in the dark about minority or gender issues.
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Apr 9, 2014 22:45
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blackguy32 posted:Ignorance is never an excuse, nor does it matter whether racism/sexism is intentional or not. It isn't like White Americans have to keep themselves in the dark about minority or gender issues. Exactly. It's a willful ignorance. There are people of every cultural background and race in America, particularly in the larger population centers. Being slightly knowledgeable and educated about the people that live around you is just a sign of respect, and the simple fact of the matter is that as a society, America subconsciously just doesn't respect anyone else. I'm guilty of it too. I'm from NYC and honestly growing up I never gave a poo poo about a lot of the differences between Native American tribes and sort of viewed them in that generic "they were a big group of people that got hosed by the White Man" mindset, and I felt for that and knew enough about the oppression and extermination of them, but if you asked me to differentiate between more than a handful of the big name tribes, I couldn't tell you poo poo. My sister lives in southern Texas and I visit a lot, and we went out to a museum with my nieces and literally every other person, white or no, that we ran into had a pretty solid working understanding of the many different tribes that were in the greater Texas area, it was pretty surprising to me and made me feel like a heartless rear end in a top hat for not knowing more about the Lenni Lenape or Mohawks.
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Apr 9, 2014 22:52
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blackguy32 posted:Ignorance is never an excuse, nor does it matter whether racism/sexism is intentional or not. It isn't like White Americans have to keep themselves in the dark about minority or gender issues. It also isn't like white Americans are the only people in the country, and if they're the only ones making the media that's consumed at large, it points to a very big problem somewhere along the line.
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Apr 9, 2014 22:52
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Crappy Jack posted:It also isn't like white Americans are the only people in the country, and if they're the only ones making the media that's consumed at large, it points to a very big problem somewhere along the line. As a guy that lives and works in Newark, this is seriously true. The average American has no loving idea what the realities of life in a gang-ridden inner city is actually like. It's mind boggling that this poo poo happens in the same country that's patting itself on the back about how we're so free and everyone is equal and we're the greatest country in the world... holy poo poo, are we not. If you think this game's portrayal of growing up orphaned in Hong Kong was bad, ask the average inner city ganger what his/her childhood was like. Totally hosed up.
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Apr 9, 2014 22:55
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Sleeping Dogs was a pretty good game.
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Apr 9, 2014 22:56
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monster on a stick posted:Sleeping Dogs was a pretty good game. I liked it when you punched the guy and he fell down and then you blew the stuff up. That was awesome.
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Apr 9, 2014 22:58
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monster on a stick posted:Sleeping Dogs was a pretty good game. Yes it was, but that doesn't mean it avoided some pretty bad tropes along the way. Since his motivation for a lot of the stuff he does is his sister, I would honestly like to know what she would have thought about a lot of the stuff he ends up doing during the story line. I don't know. I sometimes feel like the loving martial arts instructor story line got more attention paid to it than his sister.
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Apr 9, 2014 22:59
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See this is what I mean about picking a fight for no real reason. You guys aren't even talking about the game now, you're just abstractly talking about how 'Racism is WRONG man!' and how you used to be a racist or something I kind of glazed over when it became a blog entry. I mean yeah of course ignorance isn't an excuse for racism, and knowing about other cultures is a good thing but I don't see how this relates to Sleeping Dogs or even video games in general since having a personal knowledge of other cultures doesn't mean you're under obligation to write stories/games about them. Or that every game should include equal numbers of black, white, asian, male and female characters lest it be branded as racist/sexist. Unless you're bringing up specific examples or something you're just kind of jacking each other off over how much you love not being racist. blackguy32 posted:Yes it was, but that doesn't mean it avoided some pretty bad tropes along the way. Since his motivation for a lot of the stuff he does is his sister, I would honestly like to know what she would have thought about a lot of the stuff he ends up doing during the story line. I know your hearts in the right place dude but listen to yourself. I never once thought, as I drove down the street knocking down innocent vendors who only wanted to sell me a pork bun, "Hmmm I wish I knew more about this ancillary character who literally could not possibly be important to the upcoming storyline, they should remove some gameplay so I could hear her opinions on all this stuff I'm doing' And of course the martial arts instructor had more attention paid to him than the sister he's ACTUALLY ALIVE AND DOING STUFF DURING THE STORYLINE. I mean if the ghost of Mimi kept popping up after every mission to make comments on what I'm doing... It just sounds like really, really bad writing. Infinitely worse than 'this character doesn't really come up in the game' PootieTang fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Apr 9, 2014 |
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Apr 9, 2014 23:01
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PootieTang posted:See this is what I mean about picking a fight for no real reason. You guys aren't even talking about the game now, you're just abstractly talking about how 'Racism is WRONG man!' and how you used to be a racist or something I kind of glazed over when it became a blog entry. That's twice now where this conversation was just about to die down on its own and then you pop back in with a post like this, dude. If you want the thread to drop the sexism and minority chat, then don't bring up the sexism and minority chat, everybody will talk it out for a bit, somebody will make a joke about pork buns and then we'll be back on track. All you're doing is continuing the conversation you want to stop.
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Apr 9, 2014 23:04
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Ah, the standard 'this game is racist and mysogynist' discussion that happens after there is nothing more to discuss. You've served me well, Sleeping Dogs. Enjoy your honored place on my shelf in your proper alphabetical title placement. EDIT: why can't pork buns make you a real woman, anyway
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Apr 9, 2014 23:05
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Crappy Jack posted:That's twice now where this conversation was just about to die down on its own quote:and then you pop back in with a post like this, dude. If you want the thread to drop the sexism and minority chat, then don't bring up the sexism and minority chat, everybody will talk it out for a bit, somebody will make a joke about pork buns and then we'll be back on track. All you're doing is continuing the conversation you want to stop. I'm not trying to stop the discussion, in fact I'm contributing to it because I disagree with points raised. You see someone who disagrees isn't always mindlessly trying to end conversation and discussion because they hate it, sometimes they're just expressing a view, just like everyone else who posts on the forum.
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Apr 9, 2014 23:11
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PootieTang posted:See this is what I mean about picking a fight for no real reason. You guys aren't even talking about the game now, you're just abstractly talking about how 'Racism is WRONG man!' and how you used to be a racist or something I kind of glazed over when it became a blog entry. Please don't do this. Do not try to put words into my mouth. I expressed an opinion. An opinion that you are free to disagree with. I have "listened to myself" and I know what I posted. I don't have any sort of agenda other than knowing what kind of person was really driving Wei to do all these things. She doesn't have to be a flashback, she doesn't have to be a ghost. There are other ways to tell a story other than simply ignoring most of what was there. Im going to ignore the beginning of your post because it contains some pretty bad responses that usually pop up whenever the subject is talked about
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Apr 9, 2014 23:12
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PootieTang posted:Behold, Crappy Jack, forum psychic You know what? That's entirely fair. It's just usually when I see posts along these lines, they usually come with a bunch of "CAN WE GET BACK TO TALKING ABOUT THE GAME PLEASE", with no real intent to discuss instead of just making GBS threads up the thread until it goes back to normal.
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Apr 9, 2014 23:13
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Fuzz posted:I'm guilty of it too. I'm from NYC and honestly growing up I never gave a poo poo about a lot of the differences between Native American tribes and sort of viewed them in that generic "they were a big group of people that got hosed by the White Man" mindset, and I felt for that and knew enough about the oppression and extermination of them, but if you asked me to differentiate between more than a handful of the big name tribes, I couldn't tell you poo poo. My sister lives in southern Texas and I visit a lot, and we went out to a museum with my nieces and literally every other person, white or no, that we ran into had a pretty solid working understanding of the many different tribes that were in the greater Texas area, it was pretty surprising to me and made me feel like a heartless rear end in a top hat for not knowing more about the Lenni Lenape or Mohawks. Boy, if you want to feel like an rear end in a top hat about not knowing the Native history of your area, try living in British Columbia. We've got just about 1/3 of the entire country's various Nations living in our corner of it. codenameFANGIO posted:Ah, the standard 'this game is racist and mysogynist' discussion that happens after there is nothing more to discuss. You've served me well, Sleeping Dogs. Enjoy your honored place on my shelf in your proper alphabetical title placement. Sleeping Dogs is neither racist nor misogynist. It has parts that could have used improvement because of probably unintentional (likely even budgetary reasons) steps in that direction. It is possible to talk about those things without ruining the entire game. Crappy Jack posted:You know what? That's entirely fair. It's just usually when I see posts along these lines, they usually come with a bunch of "CAN WE GET BACK TO TALKING ABOUT THE GAME PLEASE", with no real intent to discuss instead of just making GBS threads up the thread until it goes back to normal. The paradox is that the game was being talked about. But I guess it counts if you're talking about dressing up like the Monkey King, breaking legs, and eating pork buns is awesome for the 500th time. PS - Dressing up like the Monkey King, breaking legs, and eating pork buns is awesome. Kibayasu fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Apr 9, 2014 |
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Apr 9, 2014 23:15
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Crappy Jack posted:You know what? That's entirely fair. It's just usually when I see posts along these lines, they usually come with a bunch of "CAN WE GET BACK TO TALKING ABOUT THE GAME PLEASE", with no real intent to discuss instead of just making GBS threads up the thread until it goes back to normal. Oh yeah that poo poo's lame. I'm glad we can disagree politely (well as polite as SA gets) :V blackguy32 posted:Please don't do this. Do not try to put words into my mouth. I don't see where I did? Seriously I didn't modify anything in the quote tags. quote:I expressed an opinion. An opinion that you are free to disagree with. I have "listened to myself" and I know what I posted. I don't have any sort of agenda other than knowing what kind of person was really driving Wei to do all these things. She doesn't have to be a flashback, she doesn't have to be a ghost. There are other ways to tell a story other than simply ignoring most of what was there. I'm very curious to know how you would improve the game by including Mimi more. I'm not joking for anything, because I really can't see how it can be done without coming across as hamfisted or otherwise detrimental. quote:Im going to ignore the beginning of your post because it contains some pretty bad responses that usually pop up whenever the subject is talked about But by definition you're not ignoring it, acknowledging it and then dismissing it by saying 'OH IT'S PRETTY BAD IN SOME WAY'. I mean if you're gonna take the high-road take the high-road dude, don't try and have your cake and eat it too.
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Apr 9, 2014 23:21
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It would have really sucked if ghost of Mimi or "this is what Mimi would have thought of what you're doing!" forced morality poo poo was thrown in there. See, this is what separates movies from games. In a movie, being left to formulate your own opinion and think about what the film presented you with, and having things be vague (see also: the ending of Inception, what's in Marcellus Wallace's briefcase, etc) are usually seen as strengths in the film's storytelling, when done well. This is especially true in things like There Will Be Blood, where the movie doesn't nicely summarize what you're supposed to take away from the film, and leaves you to just decide for yourself whatever you will about the characters portrayed within. Gamers, on the other hand, often get all frothy at the mouth if things aren't spelled out and they aren't given succinct closure, like this argument (argument in the law sense, not actual bickering) about Mimi somehow playing into the actual game and somehow exerting some sort of morality on Wei, as a character. It's unnecessary and would have added nothing, if not hurt the overall story, and yet many people (look up) complain about it. It probably has a lot to do with the fact that as an active agent in a game's storyline, we, the player, have a more personal stake in the protagonist's character and thus need more verbalized rationalizations or confrontations over our own actions, rather than in a film where we're just watching some story unfold. Still, it's an interesting thing to see happen,a nd it seems to ALWAYS happen. Personally I like that they didn't add some self-hating moral relativism poo poo into this game... Wei is portrayed as a nice guy but as the game progresses and you uncover more Case Files and see what happens, you progressively realize that he is not a nice man at all and is a really emotionally scarred and hosed up dude with a whole lot of sociopathic rage brimming just beneath the surface. And that's what makes the game so compelling and great, and why Wei is a loving rad character.  PootieTang posted:I'm very curious to know how you would improve the game by including Mimi more. I'm not joking for anything, because I really can't see how it can be done without coming across as hamfisted or otherwise detrimental. This.
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Apr 9, 2014 23:24
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We know Mimi's backstory but don't really know much about her, do we? What sort of relationship did she and Wei have? What kind of person was she? That sort of thing. And you don't need a ghost or whatever ( ), you can do it through incidental dialogue. Although I still think the bigger issue are the cut girlfriend plots. Yes, time and money, but that doesn't really change the outcome does it?
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Apr 9, 2014 23:28
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Fuzz posted:Wei is portrayed as a nice guy but as the game progresses and you uncover more Case Files and see what happens, you progressively realize that he is not a nice man at all and is a really emotionally scarred and hosed up dude with a whole lot of sociopathic rage brimming just beneath the surface. And that's what makes the game so compelling and great, and why Wei is a loving rad character. Or if you didn't read the case files like me, you slowly start to discover Wei has a lot of sociopathic rage beneath the surface when he occasionally gets bored doing his whole 'infiltrate the triad' thing and decides to murder a bunch of cops and go on a murderous rampage using their stolen weapons.
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Apr 9, 2014 23:29
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Mecca-Benghazi posted:We know Mimi's backstory but don't really know much about her, do we? What sort of relationship did she and Wei have? What kind of person was she? That sort of thing. And you don't need a ghost or whatever ( It'd be hard to do without it feeling forced. I mean, how often do your siblings come up in every day conversations you have with people about unrelated things? Then we'd all just be complaining about, "Why the gently caress does EVERYONE keep binging up his sister? It was like she was Ms Popular and everyone couldn't get enough of gossiping about her or something." Actually, a decent way they could have addressed it in a seamless way might have been with teh girlfriend plots, like some girl Wei is dating has a brother, and the brother comes after you because he doesn't like his sister getting mixed up with some Triad dog that will ultimately ruin her. That would have hit pretty close to home for Wei, since he basically turns into Dogeyes by halfway through the game.
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Apr 9, 2014 23:32
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Fuzz posted:It would have really sucked if ghost of Mimi or "this is what Mimi would have thought of what you're doing!" forced morality poo poo was thrown in there. On the other hand, I think that gaming stories are weak because they fail to show the relationships of people and I disagree with you about gamers wanting to be force fed stuff. The Last of Us is a good example of them not force feeding you the ending. As for Mimi, it has been a while since I played but there is nothing wrong with occasional dialogue about her or case files or anything that is already built into the game's framework. I feel that we know more about undercover cop than we do her, and he is dead too. Fuzz posted:It'd be hard to do without it feeling forced. I mean, how often do your siblings come up in every day conversations you have with people about unrelated things? Then we'd all just be complaining about, "Why the gently caress does EVERYONE keep binging up his sister? It was like she was Ms Popular and everyone couldn't get enough of gossiping about her or something." In terms of police work, I would imagine that kind of thing would lead people to question your motives for doing certain things. I think they had a prime opportunity for Teng to bring it up. blackguy32 fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Apr 9, 2014 |
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Apr 9, 2014 23:32
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blackguy32 posted:On the other hand, I think that gaming stories are weak because they fail to show the relationships of people and I disagree with you about gamers wanting to be force fed stuff. The Last of Us is a good example of them not force feeding you the ending. ... did you just not see the literal pages and pages of discussion in the dedicated Spoilers thread fo teh Last of Us where people specifically bitched about how the Last of Us was too vague and didn't make the ending very clear? Like, seriously, now. Personally I thought it was amazing and should be held up as the benchmark for good storytelling in games for the future... we'll see if it does.
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Apr 9, 2014 23:36
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blackguy32 posted:In terms of police work, I would imagine that kind of thing would lead people to question your motives for doing certain things. I think they had a prime opportunity for Teng to bring it up. I think Raymond brought it up (or tried to, at least with Pendrew.) He seems to be the most concerned about Wei's mental state out of anyone in the game.
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Apr 9, 2014 23:38
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Fuzz posted:It'd be hard to do without it feeling forced. I mean, how often do your siblings come up in every day conversations you have with people about unrelated things? Then we'd all just be complaining about, "Why the gently caress does EVERYONE keep binging up his sister? It was like she was Ms Popular and everyone couldn't get enough of gossiping about her or something." And that would have been a good idea, yeah.  edit: what they said
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Apr 9, 2014 23:38
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Fuzz posted:... did you just not see the literal pages and pages of discussion in the dedicated Spoilers thread fo teh Last of Us where people specifically bitched about how the Last of Us was too vague and didn't make the ending very clear? Like, seriously, now. People do that for movies too. They are broad fields that support differing viewpoints. People bitched about Inception not making sense and not offering closure either. Then you have movies like the Blade Runner Final Cut that pretty much beat you over the head with a specific interpretation when previously it was much more vague.
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Apr 9, 2014 23:38
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blackguy32 posted:People do that for movies too. They are broad fields that support differing viewpoints. People bitched about Inception not making sense and not offering closure either. Then you have movies like the Blade Runner Final Cut that pretty much beat you over the head with a specific interpretation when previously it was much more vague. Really? I always saw the DC of Blade Runner as bringing in an interpretation that literally wasn't alluded to much at all in the original, because the original was so cut and dry. It's a lot more morally ambiguous, despite being a lot more obvious about the whole Decker is a replicant thing. Back on topic: I never ate any pork buns because I decided that Wei would share my eating habits. I feel like a horrible person! 
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Apr 9, 2014 23:42
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I have three thoughts. One: I think a lot of you guys are suggesting the worst ways to better handle Mimi and kind of using it as a justification for the game as is. Fuzz, I have a sister, and I get how much it would suck to lose a sibling. But Mimi is such an abstract thing that it really never connects. That's not to say that I want ghost Mimi, but that also doesn't justify the lack of connection I have to her death. And it's compounded by the fact that it ties into a larger issue I have with how women are treated. Two: I like Sleeping Dogs, and it's fine if you don't give a poo poo about gender issues in the game or really even give a poo poo about the story and just treat this game as a pork bun and murder-by-purse simulator. Different opinions, even ones clearly opposed to your own, do not invalidate your beliefs. Three: Why doesn't Fuzz have a pork bun in his hand? 
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Apr 9, 2014 23:49
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Fuzz posted:Really? I always saw the DC of Blade Runner as bringing in an interpretation that literally wasn't alluded to much at all in the original, because the original was so cut and dry. It's a lot more morally ambiguous, despite being a lot more obvious about the whole Decker is a replicant thing. No, I was talking about the Final cut. The most recent release. The director's cut leaves some ambiguity to it, but the Final Cut pretty much leaves only room for one interpretation.
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Apr 9, 2014 23:53
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